List of highly sought-after residencies

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I've seen top programs and I've seen lower tier programs.

Each program seemed to be willing to teach you as much as you're willing to learn.

I'm sure the top tier programs expect you to know things more than the lower tier programs, but nothing is stopping the resident from working hard in either program and learning the most possible.

In some of the more "top tier" externships I was at, driving to 4 different hospitals didn't make the residents more competent than those where they are at 1 or 2 hospitals. It just made it more rounding, etc.

While I agree some programs expect more and learning is more forced, I would venture to say I still believe that a resident learns as much as they want to at any program.

Some programs have different surgical techniques, some focus more on ex fix, some focus more in Minimal invasive techniques, some focus more on total ankle Replacement...but I still think you learn what you are willing to learn wherever you go in general.
Sorry, but Im jumping on the train of you being ill informed.

Ive been trying to get away from the negativity on this forum because it is exhausting. But your comments are really unrealistic.

Go to VA tucson and try to tell me that program is created equal.

8-2 cut toenails 4 days a week. Then go home. Any and all rearfoot goes to ortho. Anything midfoot goes to ortho. Most forefoot goes to ortho.
I heard the director say "PTTD! We dont do any of that there rearfoot here!"
Poor resident went right back to nail jail after being excited about something.

Austin bunion takes FOREVER because they dont know what they are doing (attending or resident...)

They get RRA from "outside rotations" where they do nothing.

1 day a week wound clinic where you put betadine on anything and everything. Barely debride. Just betadine.

Saw a late in the year 2nd year do his "first TMA". Because they dont even get called for pus.

I cant remember his name but the director was an older guy. Looks like hes gone now. But he just sat there and collected a paycheck at residents expense. Absolutely terrible program.

- - -

Not all podiatry programs are created equal. We will never be equal until the lower tier programs are gone. But with all these new schools opening we will get more and more watered down crap residencies. Unless they close CSPM and the other non performing schools the profession is in big trouble.

- - -
Edit. My comments on VA tucson was my experience a decade ago. It could be the countries greatest residency now (its not) for all I know. Maybe new director really turned it around. But it was a toenail residency a decade ago.

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My comments on VA tucson was my experience a decade ago. It could be the countries greatest residency now (its not) for all I know. Maybe new director really turned it around. But it was a toenail residency a decade ago.
I don't think VA tuscon is taking residents anymore. My buddies said it sucked when they did their off month there.
 
Perhaps I haven't seen any of these truly "low tier" or "awful" programs.

I've seen very laid back programs where you only cover 1 or 2 hospitals and seemingly do less "busy work" than some of the the top tier programs.

A lot of people are insinuating there are programs that don't have ankle surgeries, TAR surgeries, and so far as a second year seeing their first TMA of the program.

I haven't seen any programs like this. Even the laid back and chill programs I've seen have had adequate surgery days, with really only TAR surgeries being non-existent.
 
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Perhaps I haven't seen any of these truly "low tier" or "awful" programs.

I've seen very laid back programs where you only cover 1 or 2 hospitals and seemingly do less "busy work" than some of the the top tier programs.

A lot of people are insinuating there are programs that don't have ankle surgeries, TAR surgeries, and so far as a second year seeing their first TMA of the program.

I haven't seen any programs like this. Even the laid back and chill programs I've seen have had adequate surgery days, with really only TAR surgeries being non-existent.
There are some bad ones.

I dont think TARs should be the benchmark of a good residency.

I believe a good residency is diverse exposure and understanding surgical concepts.

There are absolutely residencies out there where DPMs cut toenails all day long.

Thats not large exposure. Thats making someone else money.

- - -

I know of a residency where residents used to do nursing home rounds. Thats just abuse.
 
Perhaps I haven't seen any of these truly "low tier" or "awful" programs.

I've seen very laid back programs where you only cover 1 or 2 hospitals and seemingly do less "busy work" than some of the the top tier programs.

A lot of people are insinuating there are programs that don't have ankle surgeries, TAR surgeries, and so far as a second year seeing their first TMA of the program.

I haven't seen any programs like this. Even the laid back and chill programs I've seen have had adequate surgery days, with really only TAR surgeries being non-existent.
I believe you aren't even in residency... and haven't even been through the match yet?
You start threads like "family friendly residencies" and "is residency hard."
Ask yourself honestly (dont' need to answer, but just consider):
-how many programs have you clerked at?
-did you match your top choice? (or will you be competitive for it, if match upcoming)
-are you a high rank student with access to nearly all clerkships?

I don't know what you consider 'adequate'?
4th year is an interesting time where you've read a lot and seen a lot and talked to many ppl... but actually are competent in very little.
Every program/director/resident will tout their strengths and experience.
Every pod student might set the bar at a different height.
It's fine to want what you want and/or paint what you get as a good result, but it's questionable to advise others to do the same if it's just not objectively truthful.

Sometimes, the best thing to do is to look at the program's alumni and what sort of jobs they take, what cases they do, if they pass ABFAS qual/cert, etc. That varies highly from program to program.

In podiatry, it's very shortsighted to say that "nearly every residency prepares you enough to be competent in the field." Simply not true... and it drew a fair amount of flack on SDN above for good reason.
Why do so many DPMs do limited or no surgery after residency?
Why do many grads not do RRA?
Why does ortho generally not respect podiatry?
Why are some podiatry programs in the scramble nearly every year?
Why do some programs consistently fail ABFAS while other residencies achieve nearly 100% pass BQ?
Why do people do fellowships?
Why are nearly all ACFAS speakers from the same couple dozen residency programs?

...again, go wherever you like for residency. Be happy with it - I hope you are. Tell yourself whatever you wish.

But please, don't tell people it doesn't matter and "nothing is stopping the resident." Case volume, case diversity, good attendings, academics, teaching hospital, being single versus quad scrubbed is the limiting factor. Match and residency is a hugely impactful decision on each DPM's future career options and skills to offer patients. It will likely affect their income and job location/type choices.

Podiatry residencies are tremendously variable. It's unfortunate. 3 year residency does NOT equal 3 year residency in podiatry. We all know this. You may not, if you are on clerkships and haven't been to a top or bottom end program. Nonetheless, you don't know what you don't know. There are a finite minority of pod residencies that give high level skills. There are even fewer than in recent years as many top attendings now basically opt out most/all of their surgery to direct a fellowship and give cases to those trainees instead.

Maybe podiatry post-grad training standardization will improve someday, maybe standardization will become more like MD programs (expected norm of teaching hospitals, academic structure, solid teaching attendings, board prep, exposure to volume of all common case types, etc)... but for now and the foreseeable future, there is a serious shortage of good DPM residency spots (due to huge glut of DPM grads... and the fact there never were enough high level DPM surgical spots). For now, there's also a hold on closing/probation for lackluster pod programs because we are busy opening needless new pod schools. Because podiatry. :)
 
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There are some bad ones.

I dont think TARs should be the benchmark of a good residency.

I believe a good residency is diverse exposure and understanding surgical concepts.

There are absolutely residencies out there where DPMs cut toenails all day long.

Thats not large exposure. Thats making someone else money.

- - -

I know of a residency where residents used to do nursing home rounds. Thats just abuse.

I agree that nursing home rounds are borderline abuse.

I honestly think a lot of programs that have you just do busy work and excessive driving are problems in their own right, which many people will even call them top tier programs though. I've heard residents from "good" residencies state a lot of what makes it busy is doing some completely absurd busy work. So while they have good surgical programs, a lot of time is wasted not doing those.
 
I agree that nursing home rounds are borderline abuse.

I honestly think a lot of programs that have you just do busy work and excessive driving are problems in their own right, which many people will even call them top tier programs though. I've heard residents from "good" residencies state a lot of what makes it busy is doing some completely absurd busy work. So while they have good surgical programs, a lot of time is wasted not doing those.

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Maybe agree to disagree, quit while you can, and talk to us in pgy3 during the job search and around ABFAS BQ exam time? :)
 
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Maybe agree to disagree, quit while you can, and talk to us in pgy3 during the job search and around ABFAS BQ exam time? :)
In another APMLE Part II/ Part III board they were saying it's ok to fail part ii and iii multiple times and you'll still get a great program. Either very naive or a troll.
 
In another APMLE Part II/ Part III board they were saying it's ok to fail part ii and iii multiple times and you'll still get a great program. Either very naive or a troll.
That's not even remotely close to what I said.

I didn't even mention part 3 for starters.
 
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Maybe agree to disagree, quit while you can, and talk to us in pgy3 during the job search and around ABFAS BQ exam time? :)
Knowing myself I probably won't have too many issues with ABFAS BQ, despite the extremely low first time pass rate it generally holds. I tend to study for things like that several years in advance. I started studying for boards part 2 the day after I passed boards part 1.

But the job search, who knows how that will go.
 
I believe you aren't even in residency... and haven't even been through the match yet?
You start threads like "family friendly residencies" and "is residency hard."
Ask yourself honestly (dont' need to answer, but just consider):
-how many programs have you clerked at?
-did you match your top choice? (or will you be competitive for it, if match upcoming)
-are you a high rank student with access to nearly all clerkships?

I don't know what you consider 'adequate'?
4th year is an interesting time where you've read a lot and seen a lot and talked to many ppl... but actually are competent in very little.
Every program/director/resident will tout their strengths and experience.
Every pod student might set the bar at a different height.
It's fine to want what you want and/or paint what you get as a good result, but it's questionable to advise others to do the same if it's just not objectively truthful.

Sometimes, the best thing to do is to look at the program's alumni and what sort of jobs they take, what cases they do, if they pass ABFAS qual/cert, etc. That varies highly from program to program.

In podiatry, it's very shortsighted to say that "nearly every residency prepares you enough to be competent in the field." Simply not true... and it drew a fair amount of flack on SDN above for good reason.
Why do so many DPMs do limited or no surgery after residency?
Why do many grads not do RRA?
Why does ortho generally not respect podiatry?
Why are some podiatry programs in the scramble nearly every year?
Why do some programs consistently fail ABFAS while other residencies achieve nearly 100% pass BQ?
Why do people do fellowships?
Why are nearly all ACFAS speakers from the same couple dozen residency programs?

...again, go wherever you like for residency. Be happy with it - I hope you are. Tell yourself whatever you wish.

But please, don't tell people it doesn't matter and "nothing is stopping the resident." Case volume, case diversity, good attendings, academics, teaching hospital, being single versus quad scrubbed is the limiting factor. Match and residency is a hugely impactful decision on each DPM's future career options and skills to offer patients. It will likely affect their income and job location/type choices.

Podiatry residencies are tremendously variable. It's unfortunate. 3 year residency does NOT equal 3 year residency in podiatry. We all know this. You may not, if you are on clerkships and haven't been to a top or bottom end program. Nonetheless, you don't know what you don't know. There are a finite minority of pod residencies that give high level skills. There are even fewer than in recent years as many top attendings now basically opt out most/all of their surgery to direct a fellowship and give cases to those trainees instead.

Maybe podiatry post-grad training standardization will improve someday, maybe standardization will become more like MD programs (expected norm of teaching hospitals, academic structure, solid teaching attendings, board prep, exposure to volume of all common case types, etc)... but for now and the foreseeable future, there is a serious shortage of good DPM residency spots (due to huge glut of DPM grads... and the fact there never were enough high level DPM surgical spots). For now, there's also a hold on closing/probation for lackluster pod programs because we are busy opening needless new pod schools. Because podiatry. :)
All great considerations.

It's true I haven't participated in match yet, but I'm getting close.

It's just been my observations, right or wrong, that all the places I've personally been to seem competent even though some programs are more laid back than others.

I think that residents with harder and more tedious residencies tend to look down on less busy residencies, even though the surgery experience isn't that different at the end of the day.

I have friends at higher tier programs who do almost administrative work for their attendings offices, for example. Just things that are busy work.
 
All great considerations.

It's true I haven't participated in match yet, but I'm getting close.

It's just been my observations, right or wrong, that all the places I've personally been to seem competent even though some programs are more laid back than others.

I think that residents with harder and more tedious residencies tend to look down on less busy residencies, even though the surgery experience isn't that different at the end of the day.

I have friends at higher tier programs who do almost administrative work for their attendings offices, for example. Just things that are busy work.
If you haven't gone through the process yet, then why have much of an opinion?

This would be like a pre-pod trying to tell a bunch of 4th year podiatry students what pod school is like. Then when all the 4th year podiatry students tell the pre-pod how wrong his view of podiatry school is, he explains why he disagrees.... without ever having yet gone to pod school.... to the people who have actually been to and (nearly) completed pod school.
 
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All great considerations.

It's true I haven't participated in match yet, but I'm getting close.

It's just been my observations, right or wrong, that all the places I've personally been to seem competent even though some programs are more laid back than others.

I think that residents with harder and more tedious residencies tend to look down on less busy residencies, even though the surgery experience isn't that different at the end of the day.

I have friends at higher tier programs who do almost administrative work for their attendings offices, for example. Just things that are busy work.
You’re in for a real treat 3 years from now.
 
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If you haven't gone through the process yet, then why have much of an opinion?

This would be like a pre-pod trying to tell a bunch of 4th year podiatry students what pod school is like. Then when all the 4th year podiatry students tell the pre-pod how wrong his view of podiatry school is, he explains why he disagrees.... without ever having yet gone to pod school.... to the people who have actually been to and (nearly) completed pod school.
The problems with hypotheticals is that they are just hypotheticals.

I'm talking about my experience at residency locations as an extern, not someone who has never been. In addition to that, different people here have varying residency experiences, not all the same as a podiatry school.

But I do have an opinion as an extern seeing exactly what residents do on a day-to-day basis.
 
The problems with hypotheticals is that they are just hypotheticals.

I'm talking about my experience at residency locations as an extern, not someone who has never been. In addition to that, different people here have varying residency experiences, not all the same as a podiatry school.

But I do have an opinion as an extern seeing exactly what residents do on a day-to-day basis.
Not trying to beat a dead horse but the other posters on here are correct when they say there are residencies that exist who triple scrub decompressional osteotomies and see little to no hindfoot procedures or even bread and butter elective forefoot cases.

There are good residents and bad residents.
There are good programs and bad programs.
There are good residents at OK programs, and bad residents at good programs.
There are smart residents who are terrible at surgery and clinic.

But yes, the bad programs these posters speak of do exist.
 
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What is the competition like for highly sought-after programs? Most of my programs are highly sought after with 2 safety programs. Do people at least match within their top 3?
 
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What is the competition like for highly sought-after programs? Most of my programs are highly sought after with 2 safety programs. Do people at least match within their top 3?
It all depends largely on how your clerkships went... perhaps interviews and soft skills also.

Gpa/rank is probably a tiebreak at best for most programs' ranking (that was more to filter the lesser students from getting clerkship or interview in the first place)... for ranking, majority will go by clerkship heavily and interview to some degree.

Unlikable people or people who barely had the stats to get the clerkships can probably rank 10 and still scramble, though. Meanwhile, a good student who is likeable and hardworking could usually get their top choice unless they went for truly elite programs with many good applicants. It's variable. Most good students know where they're going before match day. Just rank them in the order you want them... match rank is TOTALLY in students' favor.
 
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It all depends largely on how your clerkships went... perhaps interviews and soft skills also.

Gpa/rank is probably a tiebreak at best for most programs' ranking (that was more to filter the lesser students from getting clerkship or interview in the first place)... for ranking, majority will go by clerkship heavily and interview to some degree.

Unlikable people or people who barely had the stats to get the clerkships can probably rank 10 and still scramble, though. Meanwhile, a good student who is likeable and hardworking could usually get their top choice unless they went for truly elite programs with many good applicants. It's variable. Most good students know where they're going before match day. Just rank them in the order you want them... match rank is TOTALLY in students' favor.
Are programs more likely to pick the smarter/harder working student or someone they have known/someone who is friends with the residents from school? I know podiatry is a small world, I just don't know the right people for the programs I'm externing at. Seems like everyone is related to someone or best friends with someone.
 
Are programs more likely to pick the smarter/harder working student or someone they have known/someone who is friends with the residents from school? I know podiatry is a small world, I just don't know the right people for the programs I'm externing at. Seems like everyone is related to someone or best friends with someone.
Sure nepotism exists.

If you're at a decent residency, they won't care who you have connections with.
If you're lazy, toxic, are an overall pinecone- you will end up on our s*** list.

Funny story- our department received a letter from some private practice cardiologist across town recommending we take a pod student for residency match. Never met the student before, no idea who they were, they never visited or reached out to our program or any of the residents etc.

We laughed, passed it around, laughed some more, and threw it in the shredder.
 
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Sure nepotism exists.

If you're at a decent residency, they won't care who you have connections with.
If you're lazy, toxic, are an overall pinecone- you will end up on our s*** list.

Funny story- our department received a letter from some private practice cardiologist across town recommending we take a pod student for residency match. Never met the student before, no idea who they were, they never visited or reached out to our program or any of the residents etc.

We laughed, passed it around, laughed some more, and threw it in the shredder.
Im going to start referring to people I dont like as pinecones.
 
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It all depends largely on how your clerkships went... perhaps interviews and soft skills also.

Gpa/rank is probably a tiebreak at best for most programs' ranking (that was more to filter the lesser students from getting clerkship or interview in the first place)... for ranking, majority will go by clerkship heavily and interview to some degree.

Unlikable people or people who barely had the stats to get the clerkships can probably rank 10 and still scramble, though. Meanwhile, a good student who is likeable and hardworking could usually get their top choice unless they went for truly elite programs with many good applicants. It's variable. Most good students know where they're going before match day. Just rank them in the order you want them... match rank is TOTALLY in students' favor.
What do you mean by soft skills?
 
I do think there’s some truth to that residencies are the same in the sense that the really really good ones are generally built very similarly, the average ones are built similar, the sucky ones suck for the same reasons etc.

But there are huge differences between Inova, Crozier and Wycoff for example. Anyone who tries to say otherwise is deluding themselves.

An Inova grad has done over 1,000 cases working with really good surgeons whereas the other two programs grads don’t come close. So in the 3 years the residents were in residency, the inova residents were actually doing surgery and the other 2 were doing what? But hey some people don’t want to be doing surgery all day everyday so an Inova (or an Inova like residency) isn’t for them and they end up at Crozier…nothing wrong with that. We all end up competing for the same jobs anyways.

But is there really a difference between Inova, Kaiser, Legacy, Wheaton Franciscan, Swedish etc? No not really. You’d get really great training at any one of those places so then it becomes a personal decision of what you want.
 
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Should the # of resident spots be an important consideration when selecting programs?

Or should you assume they take less clerks, so the “odds” are similar regardless?
 
Should the # of resident spots be an important consideration when selecting programs?

Or should you assume they take less clerks, so the “odds” are similar regardless?
Depends. If you know they are getting top tier applicants and you had a bad month / didn't jive well with the residents / no one paid attention to you or told you "Hey reach out to us we're interested"- likely low yield.

On flip side if you had a fantastic month and you have multiple residents (all 3 years even if they're only taking 1 per year) tell you "Hey you had a really good month with us text us" etc etc- then rank them higher you likely have a shot.
 
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I'm wondering if we're talking about the same thing here.

-Tabasco9 - you've already answerered your question. Yes, technically you are competing for fewer spots. Perhaps the program overall takes fewer clerks or interviews fewer students, but yes, you are technically only competing for a more limited number of spots. You could rank 7 programs and be ranked #2 by all of them and if the #1 student ranks it #1 everytime then you'll scramble even though all 7 thought highly enough of you to rank you #2.

-For the purposes of ranking programs after interviews you should rank simply based on where you want to be. Yes, there is something beautiful about being somewhere that wants you back - a 3 year marriage made in heaven, but rank what you actually want. A program you don't want to go to tells you they are ranking you #1 - should that change your rank consideration? No. A classmate of mine called me after interviews because one of the Houston programs told him he was "ranked to match" (which is a classic Houston lie). He told me he was considering changing his ranking because they'd said that. "Do you want to be there as your top choice" - I said. "No", he said. Then rank the programs you want to be at #1, etc.
 
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Depends. If you know they are getting top tier applicants and you had a bad month / didn't jive well with the residents / no one paid attention to you or told you "Hey reach out to us we're interested"- likely low yield.

On flip side if you had a fantastic month and you have multiple residents (all 3 years even if they're only taking 1 per year) tell you "Hey you had a really good month with us text us" etc etc- then rank them higher you likely have a shot.

I'm wondering if we're talking about the same thing here.

-Tabasco9 - you've already answerered your question. Yes, technically you are competing for fewer spots. Perhaps the program overall takes fewer clerks or interviews fewer students, but yes, you are technically only competing for a more limited number of spots. You could rank 7 programs and be ranked #2 by all of them and if the #1 student ranks it #1 everytime then you'll scramble even though all 7 thought highly enough of you to rank you #2.

-For the purposes of ranking programs after interviews you should rank simply based on where you want to be. Yes, there is something beautiful about being somewhere that wants you back - a 3 year marriage made in heaven, but rank what you actually want. A program you don't want to go to tells you they are ranking you #1 - should that change your rank consideration? No. A classmate of mine called me after interviews because one of the Houston programs told him he was "ranked to match" (which is a classic Houston lie). He told me he was considering changing his ranking because they'd said that. "Do you want to be there as your top choice" - I said. "No", he said. Then rank the programs you want to be at #1, etc.

Thank you guys, I appreciate the replies.

I should have given more context — 3rd years are selecting clerkships for round 1. I was having trouble choosing between 2 programs for a certain month, and didn’t know if # of residents held much weight.
 
Depends. If you know they are getting top tier applicants and you had a bad month / didn't jive well with the residents / no one paid attention to you or told you "Hey reach out to us we're interested"- likely low yield.

On flip side if you had a fantastic month and you have multiple residents (all 3 years even if they're only taking 1 per year) tell you "Hey you had a really good month with us text us" etc etc- then rank them higher you likely have a shot.

I just don't understand why externships choose so many students yet have so few spots. It's silly to have less than 5% of the students who visit a program become a resident.

I think I read somewhere here than roughly 50% of students don't even get a residency that they extern'ed at. That's nuts. I almost think they should just do interviews and choose residents that way, despite not seeing your soft skills, as it's a costly and time consuming endeavor to just visit programs which are statistically unlikely to choose you.
 
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I just don't understand why externships choose so many students yet have so few spots. It's silly to have less than 5% of the students who visit a program become a resident. ...
Clerkships and rotation are for learning. That is the purpose: variety of rotations, experiences, attendings, pathologies.

Sure, the externships end up being a residency interview of sorts in some cases, but other students are just getting out to learn instead of seeing the same inbred thinking in their school/city. Good programs can't help if many students apply... of course they might tend to choose among clerks.

About half of the pod school cities also don't have enough podiatry exp or arranged med/surg rotations for their students, so they also need to do away months or core rotations - or the schools simply want them to have variety.

It has been that way for MDs for 100 years... relatively few of them match where they rotate. Podiatry residency being 3yr and standardized is a very new thing (~20yrs).
 
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Any information on UCLA or Cedar Sinai residency programs?

Welcome... try searching within that thread^^
 
A few questions after searching through all the old threads:
Do students who visit a program have a high chance of matching there or do more people match where they clerk?
What is the recommended number of programs to rank if you don't want to risk going through MP2?
Other than knowing Crozer/PRISM/Watkins inside and out, any other tips to be a good extern?
 
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Do students who visit a program have a high chance of matching there or do more people match where they clerk?
What is the recommended number of programs to rank if you don't want to risk going through MP2?
Other than knowing Crozer/PRISM/Watkins inside and out, any other tips to be a good extern?
1) It's possible to match at a place you visit. I did. You have a higher likelihood of matching where you clerk though.

2) As many as possible. If it's free to rank and interview do as many as you want.

3) Be personable, easy to work with, and work hard.
 
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A few questions after searching through all the old threads:
Do students who visit a program have a high chance of matching there or do more people match where they clerk?
What is the recommended number of programs to rank if you don't want to risk going through MP2?
Other than knowing Crozer/PRISM/Watkins inside and out, any other tips to be a good extern?
With the upcoming residency crunch, it's risky to go to scramble ("MP2").

It's less risk if you're a good student, but it still means you're probably going somewhere you don't know much about or a state/city you don't really like or know anything about. Being a top student in scramble only helps if there are good programs in scramble also. Not ideal.

It was a lot different when there were 50 or 100+ residency slots surplus (ie, roughly 400 grads to 500 spots when I finished). Good students in scramble would have plenty of choices, you'd probably even see a program or two you'd clerked or visited, etc. Those days are gone.

These days, I'd rank any program you reasonably are willing to go.
Again, night and day difference between good programs and lower end ones in podiatry.
It is usually wise to rank any program you clerked and liked, you visited and liked, or any one you interviewed that went reasonably well. The obvious exception is for top students who know where they are going (mutual agreement of clerk program before or at interviews). It could even apply to mediocre students going for minimally applied programs. They can rank just their match and maybe a small handful of backups. That is usually less than 1/4 or 1/5 students in any given year.

Scramble will be pretty bare bones in coming years with same/more grad than spots, though. Do your homework on programs, and then clerk, visit, interview wisely.
 
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