List of highly sought-after residencies

[Retrograde_Nail]

Fortunately I’m in a setting where I’m getting the opportunity to be involved with administrative duties like implant approval committees for all surgical services, quality improvement, etc and training in a hospital environment prepared me for it.

I understand where you’re coming from, but to say my program did a disservice by giving me the chance to learn those skills isn’t true.

What skills did you learn from your off service rotations that prepared you to do admin work? I'm failing to see how it matters. You say a lot without really clarifying anything. It reads nice though. Kudos.

Please respond to my comments on our limited scope and how much time we spent functioning like MD/DO residents only to be superseded by a PA and NP as soon as you graduated from residency. These are our REAL issues in podiatry that nobody seems to have an answer to.

We get feel good stories and posts that really don't answer the problem.

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Members don't see this ad.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

What skills did you learn from your off service rotations that prepared you to do admin work? I'm failing to see how it matters. You say a lot without really clarifying anything. It reads nice though. Kudos.

Please respond to my comments on our limited scope and how much time we spent functioning like MD/DO residents only to be superseded by a PA and NP as soon as you graduated from residency. These are our REAL issues in podiatry that nobody seems to have an answer to.

We get feel good stories and posts that really don't answer the problem.

While our non podiatry rotations are mostly useless in the fact we won't function like a MD/DO when we graduate residency... the other side of the coin is our only exposure without these rotations is what PODIATRY school teaches us about these topics. We should have some sort of baseline for all things medicine even if we don't use it. Therefore, the non-podiatry rotations are still worthwhile and useful just to expand our knowledge beyond the scope of what we learn in podiometric nail salon school.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

While our non podiatry rotations are mostly useless in the fact we won't function like a MD/DO when we graduate residency... the other side of the coin is our only exposure without these rotations is what PODIATRY school teaches us about these topics. We should have some sort of baseline for all things medicine even if we don't use it. Therefore, the non-podiatry rotations are still worthwhile and useful just to expand our knowledge beyond the scope of what we learn in podiometric nail salon school.

Not arguing with this point. But there is fine line of extensive off service rotations at some residency programs where the podiatry residents are off service like 10 months or maybe the entire year. It would only matter if our scope continued to be as broad as an NP after residency. NPs don't do residencies. They can do an accelerated NP program in like 2 years, sometimes even mostly online. They graduate and have a broader scope than a podiatrist. It is absolutely nuts.

These residents lose valuable time to even master basic foot and ankle surgery. Making them seek out fellowships which at the end of it all still leads to a very limited scope of practice that is trumped by an NP. Makes zero sense and I do not understand why leadership deems this as a step forward in the profession.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Not arguing with this point. But there is fine line of extensive off service rotations at some residency programs where the podiatry residents are off service like 10 months or maybe the entire year. It would only matter if our scope continued to be as broad as an NP after residency. NPs don't do residencies. They can do an accelerated NP program in like 2 years, sometimes even mostly online. They graduate and have a broader scope than a podiatrist. It is absolutely nuts.

These residents lose valuable time to even master basic foot and ankle surgery. Making them seek out fellowships which at the end of it all still leads to a very limited scope of practice that is trumped by an NP. Makes zero sense and I do not understand why leadership deems this as a step forward in the profession.

I agree with that:

Ideally I think the most important non-podiatry rotations are:
Internal medicine
Infectious disease
Vascular surgery
Rheumatology
Endocrine

Ideally you could complete these in 3 or 4 months total.

Everything else is kind of bs. No need for us to do pathology, psychiatry, emergency medicine, general surgery, radiology, even orthopedic surgery. but that’s my opinion.

 

[iridocyclitiss]

I really wonder where did FutureDPM123 go for residency lol funny af

They are finishing their intern year of pod and transferring over to an MD specialty. Apparently you can just ask security for an MD badge and just show up to another service!

 

[Pronation]

They are finishing their intern year of pod and transferring over to an MD specialty. Apparently you can just ask security for an MD badge and just show up to another service!

Doctor, do you concur?!

 

[HalluxSlicer]

Presby St Luke’s is overrated. They don’t let their residents cut. They pimp you constantly but in real life nobody gives a crap about the esoteric stuff. Their clinic and off service rotations are weak. You graduate as the ultimate idiot podiatrist who knows literally every detail of podiatric minutia but you can’t operate and you don’t know basic medicine.

Mount Auburn is overrated. Basile is the only real surgeon in that group.

Kaiser Oakland is the only Kaiser worth training at even with some of their attending departures or retirements. If you want to work at Kaiser or any of the surrounding hospital systems in California then graduating from Kaiser Oakland is the biggest key to the castle.

Yale wasn’t mentioned but it is an overrated program. They double scrub cases.

VA hospitals are all terrible

NY residencies are terrible

NJ residencies are pretty bad with exception of Jersey Shore

CT residencies are bad

I’d pick Carilion over EVMS and INOVA if we are talking Virginia programs

I still think the Kentucky programs still produce competent graduates with good experience.

I think Ohio programs are in big trouble with the new negative sentiment towards podiatry which seems to be building there.

I still think UPMC and West Penn are good programs

Medstar is another overrated program. I’d consider it more legit if they didn’t accept so many residents. They have good attendings there but no way they do enough cases to support the 20+ residents they have there without double scrubbing.

—————

Programs I’ve consistently see produce quality graduates who are not dumb are Kaiser Oakland, Swedish, JPS and Wheaton Franciscan

I think the residency program in North Dakota - Fargo/Sanford is up and coming

I’d say if you want to be the best surgeon possible Wheaton Franciscan really ranks very high up there as their residents literally cut from day one. It’s a program that never gets the credit it deserves.

What do you mean by Ohio?? I know that DPMs belong under the Ohio Medical Board and just recently, they stopped backing DPMs with several of lower leg procedures; instead they deferred scope decisions to Orthos who are in charge within the Hospitals

 

[MalleableMan]

What skills did you learn from your off service rotations that prepared you to do admin work? I'm failing to see how it matters. You say a lot without really clarifying anything. It reads nice though. Kudos.

Please respond to my comments on our limited scope and how much time we spent functioning like MD/DO residents only to be superseded by a PA and NP as soon as you graduated from residency. These are our REAL issues in podiatry that nobody seems to have an answer to.

We get feel good stories and posts that really don't answer the problem.

I said training in a hospital environment gave me the chance to be involved in similar committees during training. But I do work with other section chiefs administratively and I think my off service experiences helped. And no I am not saying that holding the gem surg pager helps administratively but it was part of my training and I’m thankful for that.

But are there actually 3 year programs doing 10 months off service rotation in their 1st year? I would think anyone in a surgical program should finish their numbers by halfway through 2nd year at the latest. ACFAS fellowships look at logs for their applicants.

I have a good work relation with our wound care NPs. They do vac changes on my inpatients and they’re a great referral source for me. What sort of functions to PAs and NPs have at your employment that are encroaching on your privileges?

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I said training in a hospital environment gave me the chance to be involved in similar committees during training. But I do work with other section chiefs administratively and I think my off service experiences helped. And no I am not saying that holding the gem surg pager helps administratively but it was part of my training and I’m thankful for that.

But are there actually 3 year programs doing 10 months off service rotation in their 1st year? I would think anyone in a surgical program should finish their numbers by halfway through 2nd year at the latest. ACFAS fellowships look at logs for their applicants.

I have a good work relation with our wound care NPs. They do vac changes on my inpatients and they’re a great referral source for me. What sort of functions to PAs and NPs have at your employment that are encroaching on your privileges?

There really is no reason for a wound care center only to have NPs in it. Somebody with some kind of surgical training should be involved. Especially when it comes to lower extremity wounds. Yet these NPs are "certified" in wound care so they have the autonomy to manage lower extremity wounds and other parts of the body. I am sorry I have a problem with that. I am more critical than most but I honestly have never met an NP who was competent in lower extremity wounds. I mean these NPs can't even put a total contact cast on and yet they were managing complicated lower extremity wounds in medically complicated patients??? They have the audacity to raise an eyebrow in my direction when I manage venous ulcers on the leg. This is what their lobbying has produced.

As soon as I joined I entered the wound care center at my new hospital gig I literally cleared out 20-30 patients right away who had been therefore over a year with chronic wounds due to equinus, hammertoes, hallux limitus/rigidus, charcot, etc. Got them scheduled for diabetic offloading procedures after an initial clinic visit. Got them healed. Majority of them looked at me and said "why didn't anyone do this for me sooner?".

I can guarantee 95% of wound care centers are exactly like this. Run and staffed by NPs managing diabetic foot ulcers who can't get them healed because they have no appreciation for lower extremity biomechanics and the influence of underlying deformities. Then these patients get stuck in these centers. If they are there long enough they eventually get approved for HBOT. People are throwing skin subs on plantar midfoot ulcers in charcot feet. No total contact casts are being used. It is outrageous.

PAs I don't really care about because they are literally attached to the hip of their respective MD/DO. I've never seen one really have their own autonomy to run their own clinics etc. Who knows that may change with their own lobbying power.

 

[Adam Smasher]

There really is no reason for a wound care center only to have NPs in it. Somebody with some kind of surgical training should be involved. Especially when it comes to lower extremity wounds. Yet these NPs are "certified" in wound care so they have the autonomy to manage lower extremity wounds and other parts of the body. I am sorry I have a problem with that. I am more critical than most but I honestly have never met an NP who was competent in lower extremity wounds. I mean these NPs can't even put a total contact cast on and yet they were managing complicated lower extremity wounds in medically complicated patients??? They have the audacity to raise an eyebrow in my direction when I manage venous ulcers on the leg. This is what their lobbying has produced

I've had the exact same experience with a few (not most) wound care NPs. As though because they work the wound clinic, they're special. As though because I trim toenails in my office, I'm incompetent.

As soon as I joined I entered the wound care center at my new hospital gig I literally cleared out 20-30 patients right away who had been therefore over a year with chronic wounds due to equinus, hammertoes, hallux limitus/rigidus, charcot, etc. Got them scheduled for diabetic offloading procedures after an initial clinic visit. Got them healed. Majority of them looked at me and said "why didn't anyone do this for me sooner?".

I caught flak in another thread for suggesting something along these lines, but it's bad for their business if you heal too many people too quickly.

I know, I'm derailing more...

 

[heybrother]

Whenever I read a story online about how a wound is associated with tens of thousands of dollars of spending - I always laugh because inevitably I get sent a wound that has done 1-3 years of debridement, graft, expensive IV abx, HBO and I ultimately get paid $400 to resolve it in 2 weeks while a 90 day global hangs over me.

 

[HalluxSlicer]

Say, isn't the APMA happening right now in Nashville? Bet they're debating about non-urgent, non-scope expanding issues and probably wasting our membership dollars partying away. They honestly SHOULD learn from AAPA and NP associations as they do hella lobbying, which as a result has expanded their scope significantly. Correct me if Im wrong but AZ just passed a bill expanding PA scope even more and over in Michigan MD/DO supervision is not necessarily needed?

I love Podiatry so much, I hope one day we all look back in history book to remind us it was a profession before it died

 

[MalleableMan]

I have worked with NPs who are very opinionated on how some wounds should be treated. Some of my colleagues can’t stand them and there have been confrontations. That attitude reminds me of you guys. I tend to try to meet them halfway in treatment plans and it has worked out where I get referrals for things I want to treat - deformities, osteomyelitis, surgical wounds. My team still comanage several inpatient and outpatient wounds with them. And like I said I can’t do wound vac changes on all inpatients 3 times a week so they help with that.

only MD/DO/DPM can be medical director at wound care center’s I have worked at. There are NPs who are nurse managers there though and every clinic day is staffed by a physician. I agree a podiatrist should be on staff at every wound care center. I hope well trained grads who have good interprofessional training get on that.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

That attitude reminds me of you guys.

Thanks

 

[FutureDPM123]

East coast:
Beth Israel
Jersey shore
UPenn

West coast:
Swedis
Legacy

Rockies:
PSL

South west:
NM VA if you must end up at a VA

Beth Israel is pretty mid
Jersey shore is pretty terrible

 

[iridocyclitiss]

My top programs
New York Programs. All are amazing.
VA Phoenix- Great clinic, perfect practice for your future associate mill job
VA SF- You're already accepted
Cape Fear- No organization needed! so you can do whatever you want

 

[Glgll]

Does anyone know people who matched where they visited? IDK if it is possible to match top tier programs by just visiting

 

[air bud]

Does anyone know people who matched where they visited? IDK if it is possible to match top tier programs by just visiting

Yeah I am sure top tier programs are cool with you swinging by for an afternoon. That is why they are top tier I assume, they can just feel talent when they see it. 30 mins 30 days. If it's there it's there.

 

[Feli]

Does anyone know people who matched where they visited? IDK if it is possible to match top tier programs by just visiting

It is not unheard of. It would usually take a stellar paper app (gpa/rank/CV/board) and definitely a real good interview (just like matching a program not clerked... and a few don't take clerks or want top students).

Of course they nearly all prefer clerks, but clerkships are few and they know that. Newer programs or ones in undesirable states know they won't get the clerk interest of the historical top programs. A (good) visit student would be better than just application/interview only. Even most top programs have been burnt and ended up in scramble, so some rank deeper than you'd think.

...The program I ranked #2 was one I'd just visited for two days (director clinic day and his surgery day). I liked the visit, knew it was a legit program, took a pic with the director, shook hands, and sent them a thanks card for the visit. I have no idea where they ranked me, but the interview was good and I would imagine they did have me on their list. If I didn't get my #1 and they didn't get their top few clerks, I would say it'd have been pretty likely.

 

[Weirdy]

Does anyone know people who matched where they visited? IDK if it is possible to match top tier programs by just visiting

Why should they pick you over the 10+ who spent an entire month there?
Maybe for a scramble spot.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I once drove 8 hours to revisit a program after my month with them because I really wanted them. I had great feedback, thought it would make it even more guaranteed to get the place.

Didn’t end up there. Visiting is a waste of time

 

[GreenHousePub]

Does anyone know people who matched where they visited? IDK if it is possible to match top tier programs by just visiting

I did.

 

[Glgll]

Why should they pick you over the 10+ who spent an entire month there?
Maybe for a scramble spot.

Why is “visiting a program” a thing if visitors have no chance

 

[Pronation]

Why is “visiting a program” a thing if visitors have no chance

Mostly a formality but also if they really liked your brief visit then they’ll consider you after about half a dozen other students who rotated there where the student didn’t ultimately choose them in the match.

 

[Feli]

Why should they pick you over the 10+ who spent an entire month there?
Maybe for a scramble spot.

You'd be surprised how many programs get very mediocre clerks (or the few top ones they get choose other program).

The best 10 or so students at each school only have about 5 clerkship months each.

Again, it takes a very good gpa/rank/visit to pull it off, but visit + interview can work just fine.
For avg rank students, it's not as effective... but still puts them above into the running.

 

[Glgll]

You'd be surprised how many programs get very mediocre clerks (or the few top ones they get choose other program).

The best 10 or so students at each school only have about 5 clerkship months each.

Again, it takes a very good gpa/rank/visit to pull it off, but visit + interview can work just fine.
For avg rank students, it's not as effective... but still puts them above into the running.

So for people in 20% rank range should not visit a program?

 

[Feli]

So for people in 20% rank range should not visit a program?

I would.

It probably won't work for an elite program or a good one in a desired location (they can usually choose among clerks and clerks want them also), but for the vast majority of residency programs, they don't get all rockstar clerks every month.... or their clerks decide those program are backups and go elsewhere.

It's a good approach to visit and make an impression.
Should a middle rank student visit UPMC or PI or Inova? No, waste of time.
Should a top 25% student visit a top third residency like Hennepin or Medstar or Scripps... or a newer lesser known high vol program? Yeah, for sure... if they're in the area anyways.

Basically, clerk > visit > app/interview only. Only visit programs where you def would have been selected to clerk.
For a visit student to be stronger gpa/rank than the program's avg clerk students and interview better could make them in the mix just the same, though. It's like the NFL draft or something... talent with a question mark still usually beats a definitely dependably average.

...My program was a pretty good one (much history, teach hospital, surg volume, good match results, ABFAS qual pass 100%, alumni results, etc)... we had a lot of clerk and core students. Roughly half the clerks and core students were impressive, but some of those went to other places. Some programs want to choose among clerks but the clerks don't want them, and other programs get mostly avg clerks and want good/top students.

Again, make sure to visit on a day that's director clinic, academics, etc. Don't go way out of your way to visit. Get as much f2f time as you can on the visit, and make an impression while also learning about the program/hospital. You have to be forward about shaking hands with the residents and director when you only have a day or two... dress sharp and be interested, bring a gift or send a thanks card for them arranging the intro. Timid is not the way to clerk/visit (or do surgery!).

 

[tinguspingus]

So to get a conclusive answer from the attendings here , if you are in the top 3 of your class what are absolute musts for programs to clerk ?

 

[Shiyuan]

So to get a conclusive answer from the attendings here , if you are in the top 3 of your class what are absolute musts for programs to clerk ?

You def need to “click” personality wise with current residents and attendings. It’s good to be an eager learner, but don’t be a gunner.

 

[tinguspingus]

You def need to “click” personality wise with current residents and attendings. It’s good to be an eager learner, but don’t be a gunner.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant high value programs that somebody at the top of their class should absolutely clerk at. thanks again

 

[air bud]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant high value programs that somebody at the top of their class should absolutely clerk at. thanks again

Do you have restrictions or just seeking best training? (Latter is correct answer....)

 

[tinguspingus]

Do you have restrictions or just seeking best training? (Latter is correct answer....)

No restrictions at all, I have been reading these forums since I got admitted and worked my a** off to put myself in a position that could get the most out of this profession. Now I need advice on the programs that will allow me to do that. Everything and anything you have to say is appreciated.

 

[GreenHousePub]

No restrictions at all, I have been reading these forums since I got admitted and worked my a** off to put myself in a position that could get the most out of this profession. Now I need advice on the programs that will allow me to do that. Everything and anything you have to say is appreciated.

Sounds like fellowship material!

 

[tinguspingus]

Sounds like fellowship material!

SDN attendings echo the need for strong applicants, more rigorous selection criteria...etc But when students like that roll around and get to the top only thing you offer back is trolling, instead of actually helping anyone.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

SDN attendings echo the need for strong applicants, more rigorous selection criteria...etc But when students like that roll around and get to the top only thing you offer back is trolling, instead of actually helping anyone.

I mean you're bragging about being a 4.0 podiatry student. no one cares.

 

[tinguspingus]

I mean you're bragging about being a 4.0 podiatry student. no one cares.

no one is bragging. Ive read on here countless times , kill didactics and it will put you in a better position. Now I am asking for advice following that of which programs will let me come out of residency, not have to do fellowships, because the program offers strong training. Is that such a hard ask to get a straight answer for or even simple advice without being mocked?

I am sorry you're not happy with where you are. It was too late for me when I discovered these forums but I decided to take what I had and make the most out of it like many attendings here suggested to somewhat get good out of this profession.

 

[heybrother]

no one is bragging. Ive read on here countless times , kill didactics and it will put you in a better position. Now I am asking for advice following that of which programs will let me come out of residency, not have to do fellowships, because the program offers strong training. Is that such a hard ask to get a straight answer for or even simple advice without being mocked?

I am sorry you're not happy with where you are. It was too late for me when I discovered these forums but I decided to take what I had and make the most out of it like many attendings here suggested to somewhat get good out of this profession.

We're going the wrong way here. Let's just find some programs for you and move on. You are absolutely right that you need to be geographically open for training and you need to focus on the best. Before I went to podiatry schools I told my wife - I'm sure the training is great in Texas, we'll go home for residency. Big mistake. Went to some good and adequate programs, but also clerked at some trash.

The simple truth is - the residency thread already hits a bunch of the classic programs that are strong. There may be some diamonds out there that don't get talked about but you'll have to talk to people to find them.

 

[tinguspingus]

We're going the wrong way here. Let's just find some programs for you and move on. You are absolutely right that you need to be geographically open for training and you need to focus on the best. Before I went to podiatry schools I told my wife - I'm sure the training is great in Texas, we'll go home for residency. Big mistake. Went to some good and adequate programs, but also clerked at some trash.

The simple truth is - the residency thread already hits a bunch of the classic programs that are strong. There may be some diamonds out there that don't get talked about but you'll have to talk to people to find them.

Thank you! Ive been browsing the residency forum and have been compiling my list. It's just hard to know because when certain attendings leave the programs not considered as great anymore, so seeing an updated list from posters here is nice to stay current.

 

[Feli]

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant high value programs that somebody at the top of their class should absolutely clerk at. thanks again

It depends what you want.
Some programs have more cases, others have better attendings but not as many cases (or too many residents). There are ones higher or lower on academics and research. Some have a fancy name (for MD/public) but very mediocre or even poor pod program.

If I were a student today (with gpa/rank chops to get accepted to clerk anywhere), I'd probably do some the KY and good Det programs (DMC, StJohn Main, Beau Wayne), Gundersen Lacrosse, Regions, or west PA (UPMC, West Penn) ones, but that's just because I like more of no-nonsense programs with a lot of surgery and less rank-order and needless academics. If aiming west coast, then Kaiser SF Bay, Swedish, PSL, Legacy, etc would be good picks. Southeast would be Emory (PI), Orlando, Westside, JPS, HCA Houston, and stuff like that. If somebody is more academic/research inclined, maybe Inova, UPenn, West Penn, Kaiser SF, etc.

Even if you can get accepted wherever, there is something to be said for putting the clerkships in a reasonable driving loop so that you don't have to fly or do a ton of driving. Student loans are high enough without adding many thousands flying and airBnB.

There are MASSIVE night and day diff between bad and good DPM residencies, but most of the good high volume ones are going to be adequate. Pay some attention to the 1st and 2nd year residents and whether you'd want to work with them (3rd years are good example of near-finished product... but they'll be gone when you'd start). In the end, good DPMs who have solid skill set and pass ABFAS and have successful careers and good jobs come from almost any of the good programs (sometimes even the crap ones). Just like pod school, wherever you go, you have to put in the library book/journal time on your own during residency for case prep and board prep regardless. That is why even good programs have occasional dud grads... they are timid ppl or unlikable or just don't study or won't work hard once they're attending. You have to find the good cases and teachers, but a lot is still on you wherever you end up...

 

[tinguspingus]

It depends what you want.
Some programs have more cases, others have better attendings but not as many cases (or too many residents). There are ones higher or lower on academics and research. Some have a fancy name (for MD/public) but very mediocre or even poor pod program.

If I were a student today (with gpa/rank chops to get accepted to clerk anywhere), I'd probably do some the KY and good Det programs (DMC, StJohn Main, Beau Wayne), Gundersen Lacrosse, Regions, or west PA (UPMC, West Penn) ones, but that's just because I like more of no-nonsense programs with a lot of surgery and less rank-order and needless academics. If aiming west coast, then Kaiser SF Bay, Swedish, PSL, Legacy, etc would be good picks. Southeast would be Emory (PI), Orlando, Westside, JPS, HCA Houston, and stuff like that. If somebody is more academic/research inclined, maybe Inova, UPenn, West Penn, Kaiser SF, etc.

Even if you can get accepted wherever, there is something to be said for putting the clerkships in a reasonable driving loop so that you don't have to fly or do a ton of driving. Student loans are high enough without adding many thousands flying and airBnB.

There are MASSIVE night and day diff between bad and good DPM residencies, but most of the good high volume ones are going to be adequate. Pay some attention to the 1st and 2nd year residents and whether you'd want to work with them (3rd years are good example of near-finished product... but they'll be gone when you'd start). In the end, good DPMs who have solid skill set and pass ABFAS and have successful careers and good jobs come from almost any of the good programs (sometimes even the crap ones). Just like pod school, wherever you go, you have to put in the library book/journal time on your own during residency for case prep and board prep regardless. That is why even good programs have occasional dud grads... they are timid ppl or unlikable or just don't study or won't work hard once they're attending. You have to find the good cases and teachers, but a lot is still on you wherever you end up...

Thanks for the excellent advice Feli!

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Thank you! Ive been browsing the residency forum and have been compiling my list. It's just hard to know because when certain attendings leave the programs not considered as great anymore, so seeing an updated list from posters here is nice to stay current.

You need to speak to upperclassmen from your school or other podiatry schools you may know. As residency programs can change depending on what attendings leave or stay.

Historically strong programs that will get you great training are:

Kaiser - Oakland
Wheaten Franciscan (now called something else)
JPS - Fort Worth
Swedish - Seattle

----

Graduates from these programs year in and year out pump out well trained residents who can pretty much do anything and everything and have been exposed to every procedure you can come across. They are historically strong and still have their core attendings affiliated with the program and let their residents operate instead of stand on the sidelines holding retractors. If you get any of these programs you will be in great shape.

 

[Nard_Dog]

Thanks for the excellent advice Feli!

I will second what @Feli and @Retrograde_Nail have said above.

Full disclosure: I graduated from Ascension Wisconsin (formerly Wheaton Ascension). I will say it is a great program. You absolutely get the knife from day 1 in that program and learn how to do surgery very quickly. I finished my numbers to graduate in March of my 1st year. Part of the reason for this is that off-service rotations are very abbreviated, and most are 2 weeks with the exception of the big ones (IM, vascular surgery, general surgery). Also, all residents who are off service go back on podiatry on Fridays as this is the busiest days and it's the only way for all the cases to be covered. I was very comfortable with most everything when I finished with the exception of TARs. You will get tons of numbers and get extremely comfortable with doing cases. Most every resident before me and with me was very smart, and all very good at surgery.
Weaknesses: Off service rotations are fairly weak, but this is a tradeoff to be on service and doing more surgery. You scrub with lots of attendings which can make it tough to get comfortable with them all, but there are definitely the core attendings you work with most. You also take quite a bit of call as a first year, but it gets less year by year. Research is also not a huge priority here, so if that is your thing then go elsewhere.

Another disclosure, I did do what most would consider a well-known fellowship after residency. I knew going in that it was something I would likely want to do. Obviously, everyone is going to have differing opinions on usefulness of fellowship, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I can tell you that personally I grew exponentially as a surgeon and clinician during my fellowship year. Even with the high volume of cases during residency, it didn't even compare to my fellowship year with the volume of COMPLEX cases day in and day out. There's a difference in being comfortable handling big cases, and handling 7 cases per OR day with 5 of them being complex. It really taught me to be efficient and not waste nearly as many movements/time in the OR. Also, being in a very high volume MSK clinic during fellowship really taught me how to run a practice and helped a ton with billing and coding. I am now in an organization-type job as my first job out of fellowship, and can tell you I would not have gotten it without doing my fellowship. Is that true for everyone? Absolutely not. I have several friends who did fellowship and got a typical PP type job, but also have plenty of friends who did fellowships that got organization or ortho jobs right out of fellowship. It is definitely luck, networking and just going out and getting it. You have to beat down all the doors and create your opportunities.

I also agree with above on the well known residencies that are all good in their own ways. It depends on what you want. Do you want a big name with heavy research and big attendings? Do you want to do the most surgery and come out comfortable with it all? Do you want heavy, intense off-service rotations? The best residency for you may not be the best for someone else. There are plenty of good residents that come out of "weak" programs and vice versa.

You have already done a good job setting yourself up by being highly ranked with a good GPA. I was in that position coming out of school and I had my pick of externships. You just need to figure out what kind of training you think you want, what is important to you and go from there.

Hope this helps.

 

[Robin-jay]

At the end of the day, nearly every residency prepares you enough to be competent in the field.

I would say it matters more on what you do as an attending vs. what you do as a resident.

Doing 60 hours a week in residency of wound care, rounding, clinic and surgery isn't going to make much of a difference vs 80+ hours a week.

The fact podiatry tiers residency programs is kind of hilarious to me in the first place. It's like ranking podiatry schools. Pointless.

 

[Feli]

At the end of the day, nearly every residency prepares you enough to be competent in the field. ...

For MD/DO... true.

For DPM programs... not at all true.
We have the whole spectrum, tremendous variance, tremendously different ABFAS pass rates among programs.

Hopefully we will get more quality and standarization.
We have many DPM programs seriously lacking case volume overall, lacking certain case types, or lacking academics.
It'll be hard with new schools demanding hastily created/expanded residency spots.

 

[Nard_Dog]

At the end of the day, nearly every residency prepares you enough to be competent in the field.

I would say it matters more on what you do as an attending vs. what you do as a resident.

Doing 60 hours a week in residency of wound care, rounding, clinic and surgery isn't going to make much of a difference vs 80+ hours a week.

The fact podiatry tiers residency programs is kind of hilarious to me in the first place. It's like ranking podiatry schools. Pointless.

This couldn’t be further from the truth. I worked with a 2nd year resident from a program in the NE that couldn’t even do horizontal mattresses without me giving them tips. And this was at the end of their 2nd year.

Ranking them is pointless, but saying that there Is no difference and that every residency will prepare their residents to be competent to all aspects is just plain ignorance.

 

[Adam Smasher]

At the end of the day, nearly every residency prepares you enough to be competent in the field

This is true depending on how you define competency. Almost any program will prepare you to manage clinic pts and tackle pus bus cases along with mild to moderate hallux valgus. That's basically where I'm at professionally but I've encountered limitations that are frustrating.

This couldn’t be further from the truth. I worked with a 2nd year resident from a program in the NE that couldn’t even do horizontal mattresses without me giving them tips. And this was at the end of their 2nd year.

I can think of at least 4 examples of residents/fellows in "good" programs with "bad hands" who were drafted to basically generate publications for the director. Anyone who truly wants to learn to sew can do it, just buy some ham hocks and pull up a YouTube video and practice. I think there's such a thing as innate talent, similar to musicians who have a good intuition for what they're doing. If you don't have the talent, the best program in the world won't make up for it.

But yeah still not all programs are equal and there are def some stinkers out there

 

[iridocyclitiss]

At the end of the day, nearly every residency prepares you enough to be competent in the field.

I would say it matters more on what you do as an attending vs. what you do as a resident.

Doing 60 hours a week in residency of wound care, rounding, clinic and surgery isn't going to make much of a difference vs 80+ hours a week.

The fact podiatry tiers residency programs is kind of hilarious to me in the first place. It's like ranking podiatry schools. Pointless.

No way jose

There is a stark difference in the best programs vs the worst programs. trust me.

every program has rounding wound care etc but not every program has big surgical numbers or is surgically competent. 300 cases are not enough to be competent. Ask any resident at a bad program if they recommend it, guarantee you they tell you to go elsewhere.

Podiatry is great, but some residencies exist because they can get cheap labor that a PA would do in the MD DO world. (AKA retract and do nothing, see post ops, do the work the attending doesn't want to do).

 

[Robin-jay]

For MD/DO... true.

For DPM programs... not at all true.
We have the whole spectrum, tremendous variance, tremendously different ABFAS pass rates among programs.

Hopefully we will get more quality and standarization.
We have many DPM programs seriously lacking case volume overall, lacking certain case types, or lacking academics.
It'll be hard with new schools demanding hastily created/expanded residency spots.

I've seen top programs and I've seen lower tier programs.

Each program seemed to be willing to teach you as much as you're willing to learn.

I'm sure the top tier programs expect you to know things more than the lower tier programs, but nothing is stopping the resident from working hard in either program and learning the most possible.

In some of the more "top tier" externships I was at, driving to 4 different hospitals didn't make the residents more competent than those where they are at 1 or 2 hospitals. It just made it more rounding, etc.

While I agree some programs expect more and learning is more forced, I would venture to say I still believe that a resident learns as much as they want to at any program.

Some programs have different surgical techniques, some focus more on ex fix, some focus more in Minimal invasive techniques, some focus more on total ankle Replacement...but I still think you learn what you are willing to learn wherever you go in general.

 

[Feli]

...nothing is stopping the resident from working hard in either program and learning the most possible...
... I still believe that a resident learns as much as they want to at any program...
...but I still think you learn what you are willing to learn wherever you go in general.

Case volume. Case diversity. Academics. Culture of success.

That is what's "stopping the resident."

This is not pod school, where most of the learning is reading and self-study.
You can't learn ankle fractures at a program that doesn't have them.
Ditto for calc osteotomy, STJ fusion, Achilles repair, Lapidus... any procedure.
You can't run academics or publish on your own if the program doesn't have those resources.

Some podiatry residencies are pathetic. Many of them. They are "3 year surgical" in name only. Their board pass rates on ABFAS qual are bad. That is what you get when we hastily create a 3yr model and keep adding schools and residency spots in a hurry. It's unfortunate.

It is fine to shoot the arrow and hit something (match/scramble) and then try to paint the bullseye around it and be happy with the result, but don't encourage others to do the same or suggest that that's the best way to go. It's not. That's a very risky strategy in podiatry, where there's huge variability among residencies and a very saturated job market.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I've seen top programs and I've seen lower tier programs.

Each program seemed to be willing to teach you as much as you're willing to learn.

I'm sure the top tier programs expect you to know things more than the lower tier programs, but nothing is stopping the resident from working hard in either program and learning the most possible.

In some of the more "top tier" externships I was at, driving to 4 different hospitals didn't make the residents more competent than those where they are at 1 or 2 hospitals. It just made it more rounding, etc.

While I agree some programs expect more and learning is more forced, I would venture to say I still believe that a resident learns as much as they want to at any program.

Some programs have different surgical techniques, some focus more on ex fix, some focus more in Minimal invasive techniques, some focus more on total ankle Replacement...but I still think you learn what you are willing to learn wherever you go in general.

Terrible take....terrible....like really terrible

Residency programs are strong because they have well trained DPMs as attendings there. You can only learn what you EXPERIENCE. You can't learn surgery from a book. You need to be in cases. You need to scrub as many cases as possible. You need to see as many TARs as possible if your goal is to do TARs. If you want to be proficient in foot and ankle surgery you need to go to a program where you will get exposure to that.

There are some really terrible podiatry programs out there run by toe podiatrists who use the residents to see their patient's in clinic. These residents have no business operating in reality.

It is not self will. It really does matter where you do your residency if you want to do big cases.