Selectivity of different residencies?

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Carpe Phalanges

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Good evening!

Just had a quick question. Other than GPA/class rank requirements listed on CASPR/CRIP, does anybody know how to gauge which residencies are more or less selective than others?

Thanks so much!

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Have you started externships yet?
Look at the history of residents they've taken, their stats, their schools, their attitudes/personalities
Pay attention to how the attendings treat you during clerkship
Talk to upperclassmen who have clerked there and ask them what they think of the program
 
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Best bet is probably their historical trend. Im sure things can change every year depending on the applicant pool.
 
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Best bet is probably their historical trend. Im sure things can change every year depending on the applicant pool.
Yeah. This is the start and end of it. ^

Just like if you had 50 guys/girls who wanted to date you, you'd be selective. If you have 2 or 3... not so much.

Of course, the "name" programs with good history/training will always draw a fair pool in nearly every match cycle. You probably know these, but this is a list of most (no particular order, besides CASPR order). It's probably not a list of all... some fall off in quality, new ones arise, some change, some I forgot, etc...

*Kaiser Cali (esp Walnut)
*Highlands PSL
*Orlando
JFK
Westside FL
*PI / Dekalb "Emory Decatur"
KY programs and Jewish (all 3 are solid + high volume I think, but check on that?)
Detroit Medical Center (trauma heavy)
Beaumont Wayne (Oakwood)
Ascension St John
Regions
*Grant
Legacy
*Penn Presby
*UPMC
*West Penn
*HCA West Houston
John Peter Smith (trauma heavy)
*Inova
*Swedish
Gunderson Lutheran

^Those programs' alumni are ones I'd generally feel comfortable with sending to for a pt or family member who is moving out of state, etc simply by seeing those programs and ABFAS cert on a CV. All of their historical results in board pass, surgical outcomes, resident talent, etc were good, are good, and generally will be good year after year at those programs. You will be exposed to all facets of F&A surgery and get good volume. The lecture/publish circuit stuff is a bit cliquey and more or less emphasized at some programs... the (*) programs are where the vast majority of your ACFAS speakers and officers come from and ones that you might target if you want those things, but the other training hospitals listed just have great volume/diversity to create good efficient F&A surgeons nonetheless (and some of those do still publish or lecture, at least local/regionally).

It goes without saying that those are definitely the couple dozen clerkships to shoot for among anyone top half in their pod class (or close), and they're the matches you want to really try for if you have the gpa chops to be one of the top 50 or 100 pod students nationwide in your given year. Remember cutoffs are elastic, and some top students won't want these "name" ones due to tough hours at most of them. Other elite students will want a certain locale, so that opens a few spots also... never hurts anyone to clerk well and even interview (assuming you got the clerkship... tough to interview "blind" at these unless you are a fairly elite student/interviewee). They will all have cutoffs every year and seldom scramble since they have a lot of options of students to match... but as was said, those hard or soft cutoffs vary every year based on the pool they can draw. If you can stick with what has worked and still works, you generally won't go wrong with the "name" programs, though. GL

...Also, there are definitely some up-and-coming younger attendings and residency programs... a lot of them. There are other programs that are real good for trauma, wound/diabetic, elective stuff, etc... but somewhat deficient in the other areas. They are still quite adequate. The app pool for those "next teir" programs will be much more variable, and they'll typically be more resident-run and looser organization than the name programs. It is certainly not the end of the world to delve into that set outside of "name" programs which usually won't have much/any name value outside of maybe that city or the nearest pod school. Some are probably just as good as the "name" programs in terms of volume and overall experience, esp if the resident is self-motivated to read. I've met a few of those "no name" directors (relatively unheard of outside of maybe that city) who are still very gung-ho and pro residents. Most of those 2nd tier residency hospitals will have a real good under the radar director, a director who was a big name year ago yet is past their publish/surgical prime, or at least few good attendings teaching well and bringing RRA cases, but these ones typically won't have the overall case volume/diversity or the same attendings depth chart or research of the "name" residencies.
Fortunately for podiatry training, there are at least another couple dozen of these wholly adequate (aka won't need a fellowship to do consistently good work and RRA after your training) type of programs. You could do a lot worse. You can even do fantastic at one of these types of hospitals if you are willing to read a lot and prep... but just be aware that you might only have limited/no exposure to certain pathologies or procedure types since these programs tend to hinge on fewer attendings and/or take too many residents which causes less cases or more multi-scrubbing. Still, it can work fine if you make the most of the opportunity.

Remember too: the programs in a desired location or touting an Ivy League name affiliation might be popular - even if they have very average training level and so-so volume. It is entirely possible a very mediocre TX or FL or Cali or whatever program gets more apps than a fantastic up-and-coming or even a "name" program in the midwest or some other area deemed "boring" and not near a pod school. Supply and demand.
 
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I've seen a lot of graduates of these "top tier" programs end up working the same jobs as everyone else. Be careful of choosing based on name/prestige.
Exactly. Some are fellowship trained and working for other podiatrists. Training and prestige means nothing because nobody (MD and DO) cares about which programs podiatrists trained at. You would have better luck landing a job if you trained at university hospital that is well known to the rest of the world than you would training a well respected podiatry residency at a little known hospital that nobody really cares about.

Play the name game
 
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I've seen a lot of graduates of these "top tier" programs end up working the same jobs as everyone else. Be careful of choosing based on name/prestige.
Of course. ^
Just like some top students won't even go for the big name or high volume programs (mainly due to geo pref), some grads from top residency will take a "regular" job since they want a certain area for family or personal reasons and can only find a mediocre position there. You can't say that the name and case logs from a historically great program and the ones from No Name VA or community hospital will be comparable, though... at least within any group or hospital that has other DPMs and knows what to look for. And, just like residencies, jobs will be more or less selective based on app pool (and possibly what compensation the decent apps will accept).

...this thread is more about residency selectivity, though. It is a chicken or the egg thing: Do these "name" programs have a name because of results and volume? Or do they have the results in terms of logs and competent alumni because of name? For the vast majority, I'd say it's the former. Volume and training are ultimately what you need for competence... no matter what attending job you can (or can't) network or wiggle into, you have to look at yourself in the mirror when you get a refer for a new pt with a calc fracture, revision fusion, severe deformity, messed up joint implant, etc. Do you really have the skills and confidence with that, or would you be forced to send it out... or just be "winging it" and/or hoping the residents can help you out in the OR?

As to whether Dekalb or Inova versus Harvard or Wake Forest on a podiatrist CV looks better to a MSG or medical center, that is up to them. If they have any other DPMs - esp well trained ones (most of those types of employers will), we in the pod world all know that is usually a cat versus a pit bull in terms of training competence. As was wisely said in other threads, it is ultimately up to you to sell your training or logs or fellowship... it is never an automatic ticket to a good job or RRA privileges or a high starting salary afterwards. You don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate :thumbup:
 
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To the attendings contributing on this thread, thank you for the wise input. Understandably, being competent and fully proficient should be everyone’s goal. I know some are apprehensive about fellowships. However, would you say a “name” program + fellowship could put someone at a greater advantage compared to a grad from a high volume no name program?
 
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To the attendings contributing on this thread, thank you for the wise input. Understandably, being competent and fully proficient should be everyone’s goal. I know some are apprehensive about fellowships. However, would you say a “name” program + fellowship could put someone at a greater advantage compared to a grad from a high volume no name program?
Well, most of the fellowships worth doing in the first place won't take people who didn't do residency at a good program. They would be crazy to do that. You are not going to land Camasta, Hallowell, Cottom, Hyer, etc fellowship slot if you did a mediocre residency program. They are going to be the popular fellowship spots with many apps, so they will choose from grads of good programs (who will do fine and get ABFAS cert with or without that fellowship, imo). So, your only way to do a real good worthwhile fellowship is to do a good quality residency first. It's a paradox, lol.

Will a fellowship give you advantages? Probably... but it still depends on you to sell it, make connections, pimp your research, etc (just like your residency training). It will certainly never be a DISadvantage, so I suppose I should technically recommend fellowship for everyone. Still, we don't live forever, and you need to take the training wheels off sometime... you do miss a year of cash and exp (without safety net) during the fellowship. The very fact that many residency directors or even fellowship directors or speakers are 2yr or 3yr non-fellowship trained can testify to that. What's next, a bunch of 3yr residency or 3yr residency + 1yr fellowship DPMs telling students to do a 4year residency and 1-2 year-long fellowships when it's 2050??

Honestly, when I see the list of approved fellowships, I am glad we have that training available. However, I see a lot of fellowship directors who are guys who did residency in the same city as me, were my upperclassmen or peers, teammates on pick-up or intramural sports as a student, met a few of them on clerkships (they were residents), etc. I'm glad they are teaching... all are hard workers and excellent docs, but so are hundreds and hundreds of others who are just contributing at residencies our out helping a bunch of patients. Are the fellowship directors doing anything that I and my co-residents or many other classmates who did good programs with no fellowship afterwards don't do or can't do? Maybe a few unique procedures... since being a fellowship director can garner oddball referrals and revisions and gets you an instant OR team and clinic help and the residents/fellows publish to promote the "big stuff" and get further referrals for it. Many of the things they lecture on are just basically their unique case presentation ppt pictures as they cite the literature, though... they are not doing dozens of those complex recons that they lecture on each and every month (hardly anybody is, and those few who are don't generally have time to be lecturing and publishing every other month... they're generally just in a PP ortho group being busy as heck). Are they making more money being fellowship directors than average DPMs? Usually, esp if they take industry compensations from being a speaker/director/developer. All I know is that, at the end of the day, we are probably all content and all doing well, good QOL, etc. That is the bottom line.

So, while I recommend everyone do the best residency they can get since you absolutely have to do a residency and you can always train well and train RRA yet ultimately choose vanilla private practice with just bread and butter forefoot and wounds, you can't do the contrary (train basic and then do big cases or be competitive for RRA jobs). However, I can't routinely recommend fellowship... it's a personal choice. All that anyone can do is give you things to think about. Many are probably glad they did it, many are glad they didn't. Everyone will have bias to recommend what they themself did (ie, I'm not too keen on fellowship since I never considered one and do fine without).

You can decide for yourself in 2nd year of residency if it fits your goals to apply for fellowships or start looking for jobs. I've had many past resident I trained do them, and many have not even considered doing one. Again, it's a personal choice that I don't necessarily agree or disagree with... but if you do a good residency program, you will know the anatomy, instruments, implants, etc so well by even halfway through your training that all you do the third year is coast, reinforce, and try to pick up a few surgical technique and practice mgmt pearls from your good attendings and from reading and watching vids and lectures. If you decide on fellowship, then it's still good you did a quality residency... since it will be nearly impossible to compete for a top fellowship otherwise. Either way, you win... if you matched a good residency and apply yourself.

...Maybe it's just ego, but I still fail to see how fellowships are needed if you do a good program. That was my personal conclusion, but ymmv. I think the fellowships becoming more and more common actually undermines how good and how high volume many of our residency programs are; the grads can do F&A surgery in their sleep since the volume is so good. Even if I could have back then - or could now - do a fellowship with one of the best surgeons I've ever seen, like Camasta or Mendo or a few guys in Detroit and see some more great dissections and more interesting cases, there is really no point unless I were an immortal. Some of them have better hands than me and always will, and if I don't know the surgical procedure steps and indications after scrubbing hundreds of cases and thousands of procedures and having texts available to me... then I doubt I ever will. By that graduation time, I'm fine at surgery in my own right (hard part), I can pick procedure indications and contraindications (the harder part), and I can communicate with patients to build rapport efficiently and identify good/bad candidates (the hardest part imo). So, I have the tools, and it's time to learn how to talk to patients and become my own surgeon. I would be better off that 1st year out after residency working with a group of good docs (so you still have quality mentor aspect) and learning my patient communication style/scripts, learning billing and prac mgmt, and starting to get my ABFAS numbers for cert. Those things will always need to be done after training regardless of whether training is 3 or 4 or 5+ years, and I can always do good CME while I develop them out in "the real world."
...Think about it: "What was your residency?" 'Podiatry surgery.' "And your fellowship was in?" 'More podiatry surgery.' That just doesn't happen in the MD world... a MD fellowship changes what specialty/sub-specialty you do, and that leads to more certification that makes you rarer - and typically more valuable, but not always - in terms of jobs. Podiatry fellowships don't do that; you are a podiatrist regardless of how many fellowships you do. Internal medicine residents don't graduate and then do have some do an internal medicine fellowship with more rounding and more clinic at a different hospital... and then take the ABIM just like their non-fellowship peers. If an ENT grad does a fellowship, they become ENT Plastics or ENT Peds or ENT Oncology specialist... not just a regular ENT like those without fellowship. That would make no sense ;)
 
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Here's my point:

It doesn't matter which programs are selective. The ones that traditionally are super selective may not have the connections to get you a job after residency.

Go to a residency where they have the most business connections to get you a spot afterward.

I have never heard of the fellowships mentioned above, nor even the people who run them. I'd say about 1/4 of the residencies mentioned above I've seen graduates working the same associate mills as everyone else.
 
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Sorry if this is a dumb question or an obvious. But is 3.0 a good chance of getting into a good residency? Or is that only minimum gpa? Is the average of what people apply with a 3.0?
 
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Sorry if this is a dumb question or an obvious. But is 3.0 a good chance of getting into a good residency? Or is that only minimum gpa? Is the average of what people apply with a 3.0?
Look at minimum gpa requirements on caspr/crips directory

Click on a program- bottom right hand corner.

Some will autoscreen due to gpa/class rank.
If you apply for program you know is kind of a reach for you during clerkship applications and they extend you a clerkship- its all fair game.

You can still get the program with a good clerkship month even if your gpa is lower than other students who apply. If they like what they saw from you, they won't care about your grades as much.

If they like what they saw but decide to drop you from their list because of your grades- its probably not a place you want to go to- because they're just playing the prestige game to make their program look better.

Had the same concerns as you with similar gpa. Played it safe when picking clerkships.
Worked my ass off during those months and they all gave me interview invites.

GPA isn't everything, but its an easy way for programs to screen out people. Having a high GPA also doesn't mean much in terms of clinical correlation. Half of them have stellar GPAs but have no idea wtf they're doing in a clinic or OR.

Just work your butt off during clerkships and you'll be fine.
They won't even care what your grades are if you work hard, get along with everyone, and aren't a general pain in the a**

Pick wisely based on what you value. Just because a program has great name recognition, does not mean its a fit for you.

Ignore all the jacka**es in your class showing off where they got in when it comes time to pick. No one knows anything until they go there and clerk and see what its actually like. Let them pi** all over themselves and each other while you focus on yourself.
 
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Here's my point:

It doesn't matter which programs are selective. The ones that traditionally are super selective may not have the connections to get you a job after residency.

Go to a residency where they have the most business connections to get you a spot afterward.

I have never heard of the fellowships mentioned above, nor even the people who run them. I'd say about 1/4 of the residencies mentioned above I've seen graduates working the same associate mills as everyone else.
Yes, connections matter quite a bit... "it's not what you know, it's who you know." For sure. This goes for getting clerkships or residency match, fellow match, jobs, speaker circuit, etc.

Still, no program is really very good at getting graduates jobs, assuming you don't want to work at the training hospital. I would pick training quality over perceived connections any day. Most of the better known programs do happen to be the ones that get sent many form letters:
'Director X, our office/hospital/group is looking to hire a surgical podiatrist. Please forward this opportunity to your graduating residents. Thank you.'
...
The historically good programs will get a lot of those letters about the positions before they're widely advertised (if they ever need to be generally posted at all). We got some of those (mostly just for MSG and pod jobs) when I was a resident, and I've done those with good effect when past PP or MSG places I've worked needed another doc to work with me or replace me. I'd imagine some good fellowships might even get a fair amount for ortho group jobs? Recruiters do it too - although they generally just shotgun approach to all residencies in the city. It is a good way to pre-post jobs and avoid the floodgates of the general app screening process.

I agree 100% that you want a director who advocates for the residents to get good job placements, but that influence they can use to help you is often pretty limited outside of maybe that state, though (especially if the job apps are for hospitals or ortho or MSG without DPMs who might have heard of your program). I remember, on my clerkships, a big name PA program's main attending telling a senior resident "just go to the ACFAS meeting to find jobs... you can meet people and find lot of jobs there." The resident was bewildered by the advice since, like many programs, they go there in their last year, so ACFAS is about 4mo before graduation (ok place to look for more options/networking, but not you should already have a job signed or many options by then)... just shows you that they are mostly there to teach, not find you jobs.

...In the end, even with a name program or a fellowship, the vast majority of the time, esp if the graduate is leaving the metro where they did residency (which they should... if you subscribe to the old school mentality of not competing against those who trained you), then grads will be largely on their own. So, their logs and their wit and charisma are what mainly counts. There are typically good certified DPMs on the other end of the job applications doing screening or helping with it for their hospital/group, though. That's why it will never hurt to have beefy case logs, published DPMs among your trainers, household name hospital for your residency, ability to say your hospital is a large teaching hospital or a verified area trauma center, etc. It is not the director's fault if their residents can't approach groups they'd like to work with... sell that training, produce logs for privileging, interview well, follow up with HR of office managers, look and act professional, etc. It is ultimately their career, their life, their responsibility.

...Some will autoscreen due to gpa/class rank.
If you apply for program you know is kind of a reach for you during clerkship applications and they extend you a clerkship- its all fair game.

You can still get the program with a good clerkship month even if your gpa is lower than other students who apply. If they like what they saw from you, they won't care about your grades as much.

If they like what they saw but decide to drop you from their list because of your grades- its probably not a place you want to go to- because they're just playing the prestige game to make their program look better.

Had the same concerns as you with similar gpa. Played it safe when picking clerkships.
Worked my ass off during those months and they all gave me interview invites.

GPA isn't everything, but its an easy way for programs to screen out people. Having a high GPA also doesn't mean much in terms of clinical correlation. Half of them have stellar GPAs but have no idea wtf they're doing in a clinic or OR.

Just work your butt off during clerkships and you'll be fine.
They won't even care what your grades are if you work hard, get along with everyone, and aren't a general pain in the a**

Pick wisely based on what you value. Just because a program has great name recognition, does not mean its a fit for you...
Yes, absolutely. I agree here... good advice^

Clerkships at some residencies are screened because they can based on app volume and to let the higher gpa students pick their choice of month, but it never hurts to apply if you are in the ballpark. I'm no longer involved with residency, but I'd say a 3.1 or a middle class rank from az or dmu is probably not considered same as that mark from ny or chi by most places' clerkship directors. In the end, if you are granted the clerkship based on that app, then you have your chance to make an impression... just like whether a pro football player is 2nd round pick or 6th round or UDFA, they all get to try out for the same team and must earn playing time regardless. Good job, you are now invited to training camp lol.

You will find that a lot of the ppl in your class who surprise you by matching a good/great program despite fair/good but definitely not great/excellent rank/gpa/etc are typically the ones with good social skills, confidence, humor, etc. These would be the "jocks," "popular kid" types, etc. Life is a bit more like high school than we like to think it is, but hey, who would you rather work with: a geek know-it-all who might be reclusive or competes with their co-workers, or somebody fun and good at teamwork? Heck, you might surprise yourself where you can match if you are just a genuine good worker. Some of them might have found a program that was under-applied to that year, might have had an outstanding clerk month and really connected with the residents/attendings, might have been direct and just told the director they would fit well at the program and were going to rank them #1 and they'd work very hard if they matched (I did that last one... only after I'd finished all my clerkships). Who cares how it happened? That match happened, the training is theirs, and the name is now on their CV forever :)

All that said, I'd be trying for and willing to accept less popular clerk months (early/late cycle) and visiting hospitals or residency interviewing and ranking quite a few more backup programs if I had a 3.2 versus a 3.8. You are going to have real problems getting interviews at known programs if you're under about 3.0 (depending on school) or top half class rank, so you need to start looking hard for second tier programs in less desired areas (realize you might scramble if you won't accept crap training) or scout for newer up-and-coming directors nobody's heard of yet offering good volume and training. If you are rejected for a clerkship at a competitive program, you could try a longshot by still asking to visit if you will be in that city anyways for clinic on a day or two the director's seeing patients, but you probably want to just cross that one off your interview possibilities later on too.... that happens, it's a sign their pool is a fair bit stronger than your app this year.
No, it is not simply a numbers game, but there are PLENTY of students with both great smarts and great personality... so, you have to be optimistic, yet also realistic. Remember that while a clerkship month is a chance to succeed, a popular program might have 30-40 or even more clerks per cycle and interview half of those... for only 3 match spots. Also, that doesn't even include the rare but possible elite 4.0 and charming student or a nepotism case who might interview top program(s) without clerking or even without visiting and still have a very high chance at that match. Still, applying for clerkships is basically free, so even if you don't end up liking or end up competitive for a clerkship visit (you never know until you try), at worst, you still got to see and learn good stuff there.
 
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To the attendings contributing on this thread, thank you for the wise input. Understandably, being competent and fully proficient should be everyone’s goal. I know some are apprehensive about fellowships. However, would you say a “name” program + fellowship could put someone at a greater advantage compared to a grad from a high volume no name program?
Not in this job market. Times are tough. I like to look around every couple of months to see what jobs are out there and the pickings are very slim from a hospital, MSG, ortho group standpoint. Leaving the typical crappy private practice jobs left for desperate candidates just trying to earn a buck to pay off their school debt. Times are VERY tough right now
 
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Not in this job market. Times are tough. I like to look around every couple of months to see what jobs are out there and the pickings are very slim from a hospital, MSG, ortho group standpoint. Leaving the typical crappy private practice jobs left for desperate candidates just trying to earn a buck to pay off their school debt. Times are VERY tough right now
Would you say this is a result of the covid economy or just the overall saturation of this profession?
 
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Would you say this is a result of the covid economy or just the overall saturation of this profession?

Definitely COVID economy. Not saturated. BUT the quality and quantity of jobs are pretty bad compared to when I was looking just 4 years ago. AAOS and AOFAS have responded by trying to limit surgical jobs for podiatrists in my opinion
 
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Yes, connections matter quite a bit... "it's not what you know, it's who you know." For sure. This goes for getting clerkships or residency match, fellow match, jobs, speaker circuit, etc.

Still, no program is really very good at getting graduates jobs, assuming you don't want to work at the training hospital. I would pick training quality over perceived connections any day. Most of the better known programs do happen to be the ones that get sent many form letters:
'Director X, our office/hospital/group is looking to hire a surgical podiatrist. Please forward this opportunity to your graduating residents. Thank you.'
...
The historically good programs will get a lot of those letters about the positions before they're widely advertised (if they ever need to be generally posted at all). We got some of those (mostly just for MSG and pod jobs) when I was a resident, and I've done those with good effect when past PP or MSG places I've worked needed another doc to work with me or replace me. I'd imagine some good fellowships might even get a fair amount for ortho group jobs? Recruiters do it too - although they generally just shotgun approach to all residencies in the city. It is a good way to pre-post jobs and avoid the floodgates of the general app screening process.

I agree 100% that you want a director who advocates for the residents to get good job placements, but that influence they can use to help you is often pretty limited outside of maybe that state, though (especially if the job apps are for hospitals or ortho or MSG without DPMs who might have heard of your program). I remember, on my clerkships, a big name PA program's main attending telling a senior resident "just go to the ACFAS meeting to find jobs... you can meet people and find lot of jobs there." The resident was bewildered by the advice since, like many programs, they go there in their last year, so ACFAS is about 4mo before graduation (ok place to look for more options/networking, but not you should already have a job signed or many options by then)... just shows you that they are mostly there to teach, not find you jobs.

...In the end, even with a name program or a fellowship, the vast majority of the time, esp if the graduate is leaving the metro where they did residency (which they should... if you subscribe to the old school mentality of not competing against those who trained you), then grads will be largely on their own. So, their logs and their wit and charisma are what mainly counts. There are typically good certified DPMs on the other end of the job applications doing screening or helping with it for their hospital/group, though. That's why it will never hurt to have beefy case logs, published DPMs among your trainers, household name hospital for your residency, ability to say your hospital is a large teaching hospital or a verified area trauma center, etc. It is not the director's fault if their residents can't approach groups they'd like to work with... sell that training, produce logs for privileging, interview well, follow up with HR of office managers, look and act professional, etc. It is ultimately their career, their life, their responsibility.


Yes, absolutely. I agree here... good advice^

Clerkships at some residencies are screened because they can based on app volume and to let the higher gpa students pick their choice of month, but it never hurts to apply if you are in the ballpark. I'm no longer involved with residency, but I'd say a 3.1 or a middle class rank from az or dmu is probably not considered same as that mark from ny or chi by most places' clerkship directors. In the end, if you are granted the clerkship based on that app, then you have your chance to make an impression... just like whether a pro football player is 2nd round pick or 6th round or UDFA, they all get to try out for the same team and must earn playing time regardless. Good job, you are now invited to training camp lol.

You will find that a lot of the ppl in your class who surprise you by matching a good/great program despite fair/good but definitely not great/excellent rank/gpa/etc are typically the ones with good social skills, confidence, humor, etc. These would be the "jocks," "popular kid" types, etc. Life is a bit more like high school than we like to think it is, but hey, who would you rather work with: a geek know-it-all who might be reclusive or competes with their co-workers, or somebody fun and good at teamwork? Heck, you might surprise yourself where you can match if you are just a genuine good worker. Some of them might have found a program that was under-applied to that year, might have had an outstanding clerk month and really connected with the residents/attendings, might have been direct and just told the director they would fit well at the program and were going to rank them #1 and they'd work very hard if they matched (I did that last one... only after I'd finished all my clerkships). Who cares how it happened? That match happened, the training is theirs, and the name is now on their CV forever :)

All that said, I'd be trying for and willing to accept less popular clerk months (early/late cycle) and visiting hospitals or residency interviewing and ranking quite a few more backup programs if I had a 3.2 versus a 3.8. You are going to have real problems getting interviews at known programs if you're under about 3.0 (depending on school) or top half class rank, so you need to start looking hard for second tier programs in less desired areas (realize you might scramble if you won't accept crap training) or scout for newer up-and-coming directors nobody's heard of yet offering good volume and training. If you are rejected for a clerkship at a competitive program, you could try a longshot by still asking to visit if you will be in that city anyways for clinic on a day or two the director's seeing patients, but you probably want to just cross that one off your interview possibilities later on too.... that happens, it's a sign their pool is a fair bit stronger than your app this year.
No, it is not simply a numbers game, but there are PLENTY of students with both great smarts and great personality... so, you have to be optimistic, yet also realistic. Remember that while a clerkship month is a chance to succeed, a popular program might have 30-40 or even more clerks per cycle and interview half of those... for only 3 match spots. Also, that doesn't even include the rare but possible elite 4.0 and charming student or a nepotism case who might interview top program(s) without clerking or even without visiting and still have a very high chance at that match. Still, applying for clerkships is basically free, so even if you don't end up liking or end up competitive for a clerkship visit (you never know until you try), at worst, you still got to see and learn good stuff there.
Great post, thanks for taking the time! Do you think a 3.1 gpa from ny or chi is viewed better or worse compared to other schools?
 
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Great post, thanks for taking the time! Do you think a 3.1 gpa from ny or chi is viewed better or worse compared to other schools?
Also TUSPM does percentages instead of GPA. So if someone has a 91% at the end, do we just assume it's a 3.7 GPA?
 
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Thank you so much to everybody for the very detailed answers and discussion!
 
Its hard to interpret grades and reviews from other schools. We all theoretically take the same classes but how the curriculum is laid out is so damn variable. The only thing I really took away from my last review was that the Western in California had MASSIVE grade inflation a few years ago. No idea what the story is now, but we interviewed a student because they had a GPA well north of 3.0 but upon further review we realized they were like 2-3 spots from bottom of the class by rank.
 
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Its hard to interpret grades and reviews from other schools. We all theoretically take the same classes but how the curriculum is laid out is so damn variable. The only thing I really took away from my last review was that the Western in California had MASSIVE grade inflation a few years ago. No idea what the story is now, but we interviewed a student because they had a GPA well north of 3.0 but upon further review we realized they were like 2-3 spots from bottom of the class by rank.
Yikes....it's stories like these that make me wonder if I'm in a good spot. I study daily, put in the effort and GPA is up there. But at the end of the day, I can't help but wonder maybe I'm just an odd-ball and I don't know ****. I guess clerkships this January will give me an idea.
 
Yikes....it's stories like these that make me wonder if I'm in a good spot. I study daily, put in the effort and GPA is up there. But at the end of the day, I can't help but wonder maybe I'm just an odd-ball and I don't know ****. I guess clerkships this January will give me an idea.
You will do well...

Clerkships are more about knowing the surgery and clinical skills as well as communication/personality. They know you passed the classes, but as was mentioned, the residents and attendings have no idea what your gpa is/was unless you print it on your hospital badge or something. Once you get there, it is all about being able to apply the knowledge... reading xrays to diagnose, classifications, procedure selection, steps of surgery, what tests to order, what antibiotics cover what, etc. That is not to say the residency interview committee at some popular programs won't weed out some ppl based on high/low gpa or good/bad clerkship if they have a ton of interview apps, but gpa/rank is mainly just a way to get the externship - or not... and to get the month you want - or not.

Your most helpful clerkship resources would be the PI manual, your podiatric surgery class ppts, and mainly research journal articles that are classics or good ones from JFAS and FAI (esp Consensus / CPG from JFAS), maybe other manuals (Presby or Crozer etc manuals if they've been updated lately?), etc. It obviously helps to at least read the abstracts of any current or classic articles published by the key attending(s) of your clerk spots; if they spent years doing the cases and months doing the stats and writeup, you will not go wrong spending 3mins to read the abstract. They are likely to ask you about what they know and are interested in, which is usually what they publish on.

...They know you are a student and don't expect you to know everything, but you need to make it clear you can make quick logical decisions and that you have a solid knowledge base to build on. If you can't name hypermobility or transverse plane flatfoot as a key decision in the pre-op, what is the point to teaching you how to do a good Lapidus or Evans? As for personality, you don't want to be so quiet that it's creepy and you only talk when spoken to, but you don't want too fake and chummy either... it is a matter of personal style. BIG bonus points if you can suture well (usually nylon simples) in OR and maybe know how to do hand ties in resident room (don't ask me why... hand ties are for general/vascular/plastic surgeons, but podiatry teaching places seem to like practicing them for some reason... like I said, I dunno... never done one since residency... I just use the instruments as I was trained).

If you can show better and more reliable knowledge than other clerk students, good... but don't be cut throat. Better smarts than their first year residents, also good... seniors, even better, but be veeery careful there and stay humble and don't outshine the master. Even if you are a pretty good student who reads a lot or are at a weaker program or the residents are just half asleep that day in journal club or lecture or whatever, nobody likes a bull in a China shop. Pretend you have to think for a second or that you got lucky if the resident(s) just answered wrong or give "I dunno" to something a chief or attending asks the group. It is fine to ask intelligent questions that show you know a little about he subject but want the doc's experience or pearls ("with all of the newer implants coming out lately, what have you found to be the most reliable fixation for hammertoe repairs in your hands, doc?").
PS, please don't be one of those students who asks questions they clearly know the answer to just to show off (esp during worst times like the start of cases or the toughs part of a surgery like osteotomy/reduction or temp/perm fixation)... those tools tend to get ignored, shredded by the academic attendings or seniors via much harder questions, or just laughed at by most programs. My late director was the funniest for that... if they asked him "so, 2.7, 2.0, and 1.5 are the screw sizes in the mini frag, right" to brown nose, he'd say "yup" and then ask them 10 or 20 rapid fire questions on fixation they didn't know. As for me, I usually like to pass the excessively vocal or high-and-mighty students the knife so they can "please, why don't you show us how it's done." :blackeye:
 
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We all theoretically take the same classes but how the curriculum is laid out is so damn variable. The only thing I really took away from my last review was that the Western in California had MASSIVE grade inflation a few years ago. No idea what the story is now, but we interviewed a student because they had a GPA well north of 3.0 but upon further review we realized they were like 2-3 spots from bottom of the class by rank.

Not to mention schools like Scholl (at the time) gave an "A" or 4.0 for anything above a 90%, whereas we got on "A-" or 3.7 at DMU when finishing the class with a 92 or 93%. Everyone from OCPM got a 4.0, other than the 30-40 kids who dropped out between years 1 and 4.

Class rank was a much better identifier of relative academic performance from one school to another. Not a great indicator of student/resident ability necessarily.

*HCA West Houston
HCA Kingwood
@air bud

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Does class rank matter with residency? Do the programs see the class rank or is it based on GPA?
 
Well, most of the fellowships worth doing in the first place won't take people who didn't do residency at a good program. They would be crazy to do that. You are not going to land Camasta, Hallowell, Cottom, Hyer, etc fellowship slot if you did a mediocre residency program. They are going to be the popular fellowship spots with many apps, so they will choose from grads of good programs (who will do fine and get ABFAS cert with or without that fellowship, imo). So, your only way to do a real good worthwhile fellowship is to do a good quality residency first. It's a paradox, lol.

Sorry to necro, but this is the dumbest **** ever. If you go to a great program and have great training, why in the hell does anyone need a "fellowship"? This is beyond ridiculous. Wow.
 
Sorry to necro, but this is the dumbest **** ever. If you go to a great program and have great training, why in the hell does anyone need a "fellowship"? This is beyond ridiculous. Wow.
I never said they did.

Check out where the fellows and alumni at top fellowships did residency, though... invariably good programs. Nobody from Tampa VA residency or your program is going to do fellowship at CORE... somebody who did Yale or Orlando or etc will take that fellowship spot every time, and that's all I'm saying.

If you ask the fellows at those good programs, they say stuff like "I just want to be the best I can be" or "I wanted more complex cases" or "Dr. X always does innovative cases and research," or whatever. I think the real reasons are better shot at ortho jobs (since most elite fellowship directors work in ortho setting), beef the CV for good hospital jobs, politic/publish for lecture circuit, etc. Some fellows/directors also set up arrangements for the fellow to make pretty decent money on the side during the fellowship. I don't believe that hardly any of the grads taking fellowship after good 3yr programs seriously think recent alumni of their same residency (non-fellowship alumni) can't operate well or that a DPM who did not do a fellowship (aka the vast majority of fellowship directors!) can't be successful.

Personally, I would like to see the podiatry fellowship fad die off. It really should die off... or it should evolve to lead to some additional certification (the way all MD/DO fellowships do). If all of those good cases trickled back to residents, that would be better overall for the profession. The fellowships won't want that, though... why lose an awesome first assist PA that can pump out more clinic patients and generates a fellowship director paycheck from the hospital? As it is, some residency programs that barely get their numbers and have below average graduates also sponsor a fellowship. That's a joke, and those fellowship cases would be much needed by the residency to make it adequate. At the good fellowships, those people learning first assist on most of the biggest cases and from best attendings are ones who are already quite competent. Not ideal... would be better for overall average DPM competency to just have senior residents first assisting those.
 
Personally, I would like to see the podiatry fellowship fad die off. It really should die off... or it should evolve to lead to some additional certification (the way all MD/DO fellowships do). If all of those good cases trickled back to residents, that would be better overall for the profession. The fellowships won't want that, though... why lose an awesome first assist PA that can pump out more clinic patients and generates a fellowship director paycheck from the hospital? As it is, some residency programs that barely get their numbers and have below average graduates also sponsor a fellowship. That's a joke, and those fellowship cases would be much needed by the residency to make it adequate. At the good fellowships, those people learning first assist on most of the biggest cases and from best attendings are ones who are already quite competent. Not ideal... would be better for overall average DPM competency to just have senior residents first assisting those.
Apologies. I didn't mean to direct my comment at you personally. I know you didn't say that.

I agree with what you say here. We just don't need that extra added BS to confuse people.
 
Sorry to necro, but this is the dumbest **** ever. If you go to a great program and have great training, why in the hell does anyone need a "fellowship"? This is beyond ridiculous. Wow.
Podiatry Fellowships were not made to teach. They were created to use the fellow and do the fellowship directors work while they are lecturing. The act of having a fellowship is the next step in the career of the fellowship director. It opens doors for them. In the meantime the fellow does a ton of work that the fellowship director bills for. This is why the strongest fellowships want the strongest candidates from the best training backgrounds. It is so they don't have to worry about them and so that the fellow will be productive for the director while they are not there. The fellowship training dynamics has fallen short in its goal to create respect from foot and ankle ortho. Nobody cares. The only thing it has accomplished is create more vagueness in our training. Someone who did a really good three year residency program might be a superior surgeon and clinician compared to someone who did a fellowship. But clearly a hospital would like a fellowship trained DPM over the three year residency trained one. Even though they have no idea what they are getting.
 
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In the meantime the fellow does a ton of work that the fellowship director bills for. This is why the strongest fellowships want the strongest candidates from the best training backgrounds. It is so they don't have to worry about them and so that the fellow will be productive for the director while they are not there.

If the Fellowship Director is billing under his or her own insurance number and is not physically present in the building at time of service, he or she is committing fraud. Residency Directors have gotten dinged for this as well when they have their residents covering indigent care clinics. Or their own offices, for that matter.
 
If the Fellowship Director is billing under his or her own insurance number and is not physically present in the building at time of service, he or she is committing fraud. Residency Directors have gotten dinged for this as well when they have their residents covering indigent care clinics. Or their own offices, for that matter.
it happens
 
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it happens
If it does, the Fellows should be screaming bloody murder. At that point in their careers, they have a full license to practice, and should know that if caught, it could reflect badly on them. And these Fellowship Directors don't have the clout to end a career if they threaten their Fellows. Too bad the people who take these Fellowships aren't putting a stop to it if it's actually happening.
 
If it does, the Fellows should be screaming bloody murder. At that point in their careers, they have a full license to practice, and should know that if caught, it could reflect badly on them. And these Fellowship Directors don't have the clout to end a career if they threaten their Fellows. Too bad the people who take these Fellowships aren't putting a stop to it if it's actually happening.
Teaching is a thankless job. I found it rewarding taking cases to most residents, but I don't mind being on my own at my two latest stops either.

I always found it a damned-if-you-do-and-damned-if-you-don't situation when it came to resident involvement. If you don't let them do much, you are "that guy" who doesn't pass the knife or makes them just hold up the wall in the office. If you let them do too much, push on the wrong student/resident with attempt to motivate, or have too lax of supervision, it can also bite you also with wrong Rx, slower surgery, lack of opportunity to keep your own competence up, people saying "just uses the residents to do all the work," etc etc. Any idea of a happy middle ground depends entirely on who is evaluating the situation and the culture of the program/area.

...I did what I felt was a pretty cool semi-rigid cavus with claw toes recon in a young adult patient and brought it for the residents way back when. I probably remember the case for all of the wrong reasons, though. I did a lot of pre-op planning, ordered all the right fixation sets, prepped the OR team on the plan, etc. We started, and I did most of the TAL which had to be prone position (frontal Z lengthen to control length) to get the case moving ahead. Then, we went supine without a hitch, making good time, thigh cuff up. I tried to let the resident do as much as possible on the Steindler strip, Dwyer, hallux fusion, Jones transfer first met, and I did 2nd toe totally and 3rd toe prob 50/50 to show the resident my technique. Those were done with about 90mins on the cuff... an eternity of time for two more toes.

Now, it was a prone to supine case with more than a few procedures and a couple different screw/pin sets, so even though the cuff time was low, it had been awhile of total real time since the patient had left pre-op by that point, mainly due to the position change (even though I do TALs wet with lido epi). For the what I viewed as the win-win sake of reassuring the pt family and letting the resident get some work and build confidence, I told them to proceed with the last 4th digit fusion and the 5th digit plasty while I went out to tell the parents in the waiting room that the case was wrapping up and it had gone well. After I talked to them, went back to ORs, and I looked in the OR scrub sink window and saw the resident still working. I made a phone call but glanced at the progress regularly; I honestly figured it would be good for this individual to struggle for a minute (and hopefully overcome the struggle) as a resident is a bit behind at end of their 2nd year if they can't do hammer toes well yet. I scrubbed back in (scrubbed out for maybe 10-15mins total), the resident was still bumbling around, and I had to straighten the 4th toe pin to approximate the PIPJ fusion site better, we closed, finished well under 120mins, and we bandaged and splinted. I changed and went to recovery room, talked to pt and family again, double checked they understood Rx and f/u and pop block and other directions, etc.

About a month later, I got a call from the resident's program director (luckily a very reasonable person, good surgeon himself, someone who knows my rep and training is generally quite good). He informed me of a written complaint to both him and the hospital (not the program sponsor, just one they cover) by the resident that I had abandoned a surgery, endangered a patient, tried to intimidate him by scrubbing out, blah blah etc. I calmly told the director it was my [correct] understanding that residents/fellows can work under indirect supervision (attending in the building and readily available) and not direct supervision, and I did not feel the patient was in any jeopardy at any point. He concurred with me. I know that he, like me, trained at a high volume place. Nothing ever came of the complaint. He knew full well that attendings sometimes don't even scrub in for cases they know the residents are competent to handle... just sit in the corner playing on their phone but available if needed... or may scrub in and just retract or make small talk (as is perfectly within the standards for a good teaching situation). I was amazed at the petty complaint even being made, though. What a slap in the face for allowing the kid to participate in what is almost certainly one of the best cases and most numerous PRR logged procedures (nine legit unique procedures) in one case during the resident's whole 3yrs training. I don't think the resident realized that most attendings would have given quite the cold shoulder or even went out of their way to damage their job options afterwards or some might have refused to scrub with that program afterwards (I did not... I didn't even dissuade that person from picking my cases to first or second assist... although I sure as heck just minimized convo and did most of the cases myself after that).

It is just tough, tough work teaching. I have a lot of respect for those who can do it. I had had more than a few students or residents who were just clearly distracted or not too interested, but that was basically the only one who legitimately tried to damage my career (complaining to the hospital when I was a young attending still fairly new on their staff). It is easy to say that sort of event quickly ended my aspirations to be a program director or main attending (well, that or just not wanting to work that hard).

At the same time, I am not saying the directors of residents/fellows should use them like worker bees and drum up tons of consults and clinic and OR stuff by bending the rules. I am simply saying that even when you do follow all the rules, you STILL might get headaches from it. I am personally acquainted with multiple talented residency directors who stepped down because they were accused of harassment, resident duty hours violations, favoritism, etc to Med Ed or admins or even hospital HR when the directors were simply trying to have their residents do their required research projects or take their share of on-call or sanction them for skipping off-service clinics or whatever. I don't think any of the directors were formally disciplined, but they had had enough of the BS after that and did have to make formal responses. I honestly believe there is a bit more "wiggle room" for both residents and directors at good programs since they tend to subscribe more often to the old-school expectations that residency is tough and attendings get respect since training is a privilege and not a right. Likewise, I fully accept that I might have been bringing a bit of the culture from the autonomous downtown high-volume programs out to a community program. I realize the attendings are probably always scrubbed in from prep to last bandage roll at some programs, but again, still can't win for trying. Lol
 
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