Oec

[daMan]

I'm not at the top of my class by any means but I still have some desire to specialize in ortho. So I've been weighing my options, I was wondering if I could get some info. on the OEC program that I've been hearing about...

1. Does anybody know anything about what kind of numbers you need to be accepted as far as ranking and board scores go? I hear its less competitive since there is a huge commitment that comes along with it.

2. What cities are they developing offices in?

3. Is this a bad thing for dentistry?

4. I hear that there were still some OEC scholarships available for this year, is that true?

5. I've heard people say its a rip off for the 7 years that you work for them, but doesnt it pay off in the long run if i decide to open up my own practice after that 7th year?

Thanks for any input thats out there.

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[Jediwendell]

I'm not at the top of my class by any means but I still have some desire to specialize in ortho. So I've been weighing my options, I was wondering if I could get some info. on the OEC program that I've been hearing about...

1. Does anybody know anything about what kind of numbers you need to be accepted as far as ranking and board scores go? I hear its less competitive since there is a huge commitment that comes along with it.

2. What cities are they developing offices in?

3. Is this a bad thing for dentistry?

4. I hear that there were still some OEC scholarships available for this year, is that true?

5. I've heard people say its a rip off for the 7 years that you work for them, but doesnt it pay off in the long run if i decide to open up my own practice after that 7th year?

Thanks for any input thats out there.

Numbers are much less because people with good scores don't have to go into indentured servitude for 7 years. It is HORRIBLE deal while you are working for them. If you look at their website, you will see that they pay 150K or 40% of gross profits of the practice, whatever is greater. So your office will have to make over 375,000 for you to make more than 150K. That is profit, so if they make 375, their overhead is probably 50%, so total income for the practice is about 750 for that salary. That means they are paying you about 20% of collections. In other words, for you to make 150,000, they will be taking about 225,000 to put in their corporate pockets. If you are a GP you will make 150 or more working less hours and doing better treatment.

Whether it is a bad thing for dentistry is certainly up for debate. Their stance is that there are too few orthodontists. My take is most of my friends getting out of residency have a tough time finding a place to work...... Doesn't make sense to me, but what do I know. The other side of the equation is that these practices are mills, cranking people in and getting them out. I am not sure if that is good treatment or not. I have heard that the OEC programs are having trouble getting patients, but that just may be a rumor. I have also heard that there are open spots. Good luck if you decide to do it.

 

[drhobie7]

Sounds like a rip off to me.

 

[Tarheel]

I'm not at the top of my class by any means but I still have some desire to specialize in ortho. So I've been weighing my options, I was wondering if I could get some info. on the OEC program that I've been hearing about...

1. Does anybody know anything about what kind of numbers you need to be accepted as far as ranking and board scores go? I hear its less competitive since there is a huge commitment that comes along with it.

2. What cities are they developing offices in?

3. Is this a bad thing for dentistry?

4. I hear that there were still some OEC scholarships available for this year, is that true?

5. I've heard people say its a rip off for the 7 years that you work for them, but doesnt it pay off in the long run if i decide to open up my own practice after that 7th year?

Thanks for any input thats out there.

1. I have also heard it is much less competitive.

2. I understand that their eventual goal is to have orthodontists everywhere.

3. It sure appears to be horrible for the dental profession.

4. I have a friend who was contacted by OEC after he did not Match. They told him that there were still spots available.

5. Only time will tell. As an orthodontist you will depend on referrals. If the general public and/or general dentists believe your training was somehow inferior it stands to reason that you would not receive as many referrals. As a GP there is liability in selecting to whom you refer.

 

[Tarheel]

Duplicate

 

[Tarheel]

Duplicate

 

[gryffindor]

5. I've heard people say its a rip off for the 7 years that you work for them, but doesnt it pay off in the long run if i decide to open up my own practice after that 7th year?

Thanks for any input thats out there.

If you open your own office after the 7th year, you will be starting from square one waiting for the patients to show and trying to build your reputation, referral relationships, and patient base. With the traditional route, those 7 years would have been spent doing all those things, so IMO the traditional guy comes out ahead. This is my biggest gripe about the OEC. That and all the points Jediwendell posted.

I am looking forward to a career in orthodontics. If in the worst case scenario OEC drives all non-OEC orthodontists out of town (which I don't think will happen), I could always "fall back" on general dentistry.

 

[Firm]

If you open your own office after the 7th year, you will be starting from square one waiting for the patients to show and trying to build your reputation, referral relationships, and patient base. With the traditional route, those 7 years would have been spent doing all those things, so IMO the traditional guy comes out ahead. This is my biggest gripe about the OEC. That and all the points Jediwendell posted.

I am looking forward to a career in orthodontics. If in the worst case scenario OEC drives all non-OEC orthodontists out of town (which I don't think will happen), I could always "fall back" on general dentistry.

I have to disagree with you. The traditional route is not always the best if it takes you 3-5 years to get into a school. You can start your own office while you are under contract, you are an independent contractor. So that you can spend 7 years getting to know the GP's in the area, and can gather a referral base after the contract is up. (that is if you stay in the area). The GP's may not refer to your OEC office, but if they think you do good work, they may refer to your own office. What do you care if they refer to you or not, you're making your $150K whether your chair is empty or full.
Another point, there is some mis-information that the OEC programs are inferior to traditional programs. I think this is incorrect. The facilities, and faculty at these programs is top notch. All the program directors have headed up other programs. OEC dumps a lot of money into these schools, probably more money per resident than is spent at any other program.

 

[kato999]

I believe you have to sign a contract that states you cannot open a office near the OEC (Imagine) Ortho Office. This is what I was told be the OEC rep anyways. After 7 years if you do not wish to work for the corporation, you have to move away, you cannot simply open a new office in the same part of town. The OEC people aren't stupid, they are gonna make as much money off you as possible. They want you to stay on after 7 years and they will make it unattractive to quit them.

 

[Geezer99]

I believe you have to sign a contract that states you cannot open a office near the OEC (Imagine) Ortho Office. This is what I was told be the OEC rep anyways. After 7 years if you do not wish to work for the corporation, you have to move away, you cannot simply open a new office in the same part of town. The OEC people aren't stupid, they are gonna make as much money off you as possible. They want you to stay on after 7 years and they will make it unattractive to quit them.

Please...I'd like to see someone try and enforce a 100 mile non-compete clause. Everybody has a restrictive covenant however I believe their's is only a couple of miles. So obviously you can still work in the same area.

 

[kato999]

Please...I'd like to see someone try and enforce a 100 mile non-compete clause. Everybody has a restrictive covenant however I believe their's is only a couple of miles. So obviously you can still work in the same area.

True, It would be pretty tough to enforce in a big metro area, I don't know the specifics either, whether it's 2 miles or 20. I am just going by what the OEC rep told me anyway. Eitherway it's looking less and less attractive than going the traditional route.

 

[wayoutwest]

True, It would be pretty tough to enforce in a big metro area, I don't know the specifics either, whether it's 2 miles or 20. I am just going by what the OEC rep told me anyway. Eitherway it's looking less and less attractive than going the traditional route.

It is exactly 2 miles.

 

[gryffindor]

I have to disagree with you. The traditional route is not always the best if it takes you 3-5 years to get into a school. You can start your own office while you are under contract, you are an independent contractor. So that you can spend 7 years getting to know the GP's in the area, and can gather a referral base after the contract is up. (that is if you stay in the area). The GP's may not refer to your OEC office, but if they think you do good work, they may refer to your own office. What do you care if they refer to you or not, you're making your $150K whether your chair is empty or full.
Another point, there is some mis-information that the OEC programs are inferior to traditional programs. I think this is incorrect. The facilities, and faculty at these programs is top notch. All the program directors have headed up other programs. OEC dumps a lot of money into these schools, probably more money per resident than is spent at any other program.

I was not aware that you could work on the side "moonlight" while under their contract. I am aware of "wasting time" with the traditional route - it took me 2 years of doing dentures & crowns after graduation before I got into ortho school. I still have to move to another part of the country for it. Even all the OEC locations are not near my "ideal" locations. But with their contract, I didn't want to be stuck for another 7 years somewhere I really don't want to be if I could help it.

You make $150K regardless of the office turning profit or loss? From your other post I understand it is tough to make a profit in excess of $150K, but you are guarnteed the $150K with no effort at all. Why would they let you moonlight - doesn't seem to be much financial incentive to make their practice grow. Just whisper to the patients "Pssst, here's the address of my OTHER office. See ya there."

 

[Firm]

I was not aware that you could work on the side "moonlight" while under their contract. I am aware of "wasting time" with the traditional route - it took me 2 years of doing dentures & crowns after graduation before I got into ortho school. I still have to move to another part of the country for it. Even all the OEC locations are not near my "ideal" locations. But with their contract, I didn't want to be stuck for another 7 years somewhere I really don't want to be if I could help it.

You make $150K regardless of the office turning profit or loss? From your other post I understand it is tough to make a profit in excess of $150K, but you are guarnteed the $150K with no effort at all. Why would they let you moonlight - doesn't seem to be much financial incentive to make their practice grow. Just whisper to the patients "Pssst, here's the address of my OTHER office. See ya there."

The restrictive covenant is 2 miles. The way it's turning out is that they are coming up with additional expenses for the practice you are running, and when you ask them to itemize it tell you what the expenses are for, they say "we can't send it to you, but you are more than welcome to fly to corporate headquarters and look at them". Conveniently, all the days you wish fly to their headquarters, they won't be available. It could be worse, you could be mining coal.

 

[Geezer99]

5. Only time will tell. As an orthodontist you will depend on referrals. If the general public and/or general dentists believe your training was somehow inferior it stands to reason that you would not receive as many referrals. As a GP there is liability in selecting to whom you refer.

I think they are going to rely heavily on marketing. Besides, I don't think alot of GP's care that much about where a specialist recieved training. There are lots of "practice limited to" practices, where the dr did no residency and they seem to do just fine....and they truly rely on referals.

And I don't think there is any legal liability in refering to someone who then commits malpractice. That would be an interesting debate. I'm sure someone has been sued under those circumstances, but I wonder if anyone has been sued successfully.

 

[Tarheel]

And I don't think there is any legal liability in refering to someone who then commits malpractice. That would be an interesting debate. I'm sure someone has been sued under those circumstances, but I wonder if anyone has been sued successfully.

As a GP you have a legal responsibilty to refer your patients to the healthcare practitioners who will provide them the best care. If you are negligent in this legal responsibilty you are liable. You will not have a good defense for referring to someone who is not formally trained, has inferior training, or has demonstrated incompetence despite excellent training. If they subsequently screw up you will be paying out money for your professional negligence.

 

[chinchaz]

I must point out that just because someone works for a crappy corporation doesn't mean that their work will be crappy.

There are many people out there that for some reason or another this may appeal to them. I am sure that many of you go to schools where the person at the top of your class isn't the person that you would call the most proficient clinically...

Just a thought.

 

[S Files]

I must point out that just because someone works for a crappy corporation doesn't mean that their work will be crappy.

There are many people out there that for some reason or another this may appeal to them. I am sure that many of you go to schools where the person at the top of your class isn't the person that you would call the most proficient clinically...

Just a thought.

i would never sign my name on the oec dotted line. bennet brower is a professional, didn't do this much training and education to get pimped like that. i know if i would work for a crappy corp, getting pulled in all kinds of directions at once, i would be more likely to take shortcuts, eventually these small shortcuts would become larger and over the years resulting in my work being crappy. hey nothing wrong with taking a year or two after dental school to boost up ones application.

 

[OMFS132]

How can someone say that a student coming out of OEC will not be a good Orthodontist?

How can someone say that only the top performing students, can/will become a good Orthodontist?

Why do most of the top performing students, go into Ortho?

What made Ortho so competitive?

How come it’s featured as top 10 overpaid professions http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1016490/posts

What if in future, Ortho does not bring in that many $$$'s. Will it still be a competitive specialty? Do you think the top performing students will go for Otho then?

When there is so much demand for ORTHO, why did the positions offered did not go up like PEDO?

ORTHO 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 502 530 512 504 498
Positions Offered 248 256 248 244 255

PED 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 362 358 417 407 454
Positions Offered 200 220 224 246 251

 

[Jediwendell]

How can someone say that a student coming out of OEC will not be a good Orthodontist?

How can someone say that only the top performing students, can/will become a good Orthodontist?

Why do most of the top performing students, go into Ortho?

What made Ortho so competitive?

How come it’s featured as top 10 overpaid professions http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1016490/posts

What if in future, Ortho does not bring in that many $$$'s. Will it still be a competitive specialty? Do you think the top performing students will go for Otho then?

When there is so much demand for ORTHO, why did the positions offered did not go up like PEDO?

ORTHO 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 502 530 512 504 498
Positions Offered 248 256 248 244 255

PED 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 362 358 417 407 454
Positions Offered 200 220 224 246 251

You sound bitter about this, but the summary is that desirable positions will be the most sought after and, therefore, the most competitive. Ortho probably has the reputation of being really easy and overpaid, but it isn't quite like that for everyone that does it. Obviously, the top performing dental students aren't necessarily great at everything in dentistry, and some that do very low in dental school are awesome dentists. The residencies have to have something to judge applicants on, and it is also a little bit of a prestige thing for the residencies. To answer your question about need for orthodontists, most of my friends that are graduating seem to have difficulty finding a job.................................

 

[kato999]

How can someone say that a student coming out of OEC will not be a good Orthodontist?

How can someone say that only the top performing students, can/will become a good Orthodontist?

Why do most of the top performing students, go into Ortho?

What made Ortho so competitive?

How come it’s featured as top 10 overpaid professions http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1016490/posts

What if in future, Ortho does not bring in that many $$$'s. Will it still be a competitive specialty? Do you think the top performing students will go for Otho then?

When there is so much demand for ORTHO, why did the positions offered did not go up like PEDO?

ORTHO 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 502 530 512 504 498
Positions Offered 248 256 248 244 255

PED 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 362 358 417 407 454
Positions Offered 200 220 224 246 251

I know the number of applicants in Match isn't a direct correlation to the number of total applicants but it looks to me that ortho has gone down slightly since 2003 and pedo that has had a steady increase. Am I looking at it wrong?

Also, I think ortho will balance out eventually. Even according to the ADA, Peds, Endo and OMFS all make slightly more. (See Gavin's sticky).

Either that is incorrect or people go into ortho for other reasons besides money. go figure...

 

[TKD]

How can someone say that a student coming out of OEC will not be a good Orthodontist?

How can someone say that only the top performing students, can/will become a good Orthodontist?

Why do most of the top performing students, go into Ortho?

What made Ortho so competitive?

How come it’s featured as top 10 overpaid professions http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1016490/posts

What if in future, Ortho does not bring in that many $$$'s. Will it still be a competitive specialty? Do you think the top performing students will go for Otho then?

When there is so much demand for ORTHO, why did the positions offered did not go up like PEDO?

ORTHO 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 502 530 512 504 498
Positions Offered 248 256 248 244 255

PED 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006
Applicants Participating in the Match* 362 358 417 407 454
Positions Offered 200 220 224 246 251

Agreed Pedo is getting very competitive. Endo is extremely tough as well (maybe the toughest). I beg to differ with the description on the website, which characterizes ortho as a "simple" job. Training is 2 years in only a couple of programs. I've seen a lot of botched ortho at my old associate position (done by a weekend warrior (CE courses) GP). Yes, some ortho faculty act holier than thou. But I've been told during an ortho interview that any dental student, as long as they're not in the bottom 25% can become great orthodontists after proper training - but hey, how can they weed out all the applicants?

Why so competitive, just like medicine, the "lifestyle" specialties are traditionally most competitive - ophthalmology, dermatology, etc. Top students will choose a specialty due to 1. Their own intellectual challenge or 2. lifestyle.
In terms of OEC - their philosophy stinks. Just look at all the conditions they place on graduates - that's bound to affect the professionalism and clinical practice of the orthodontist. I cannot judge any graduate from OEC - I'm sure many will be very skilled - but truthfully I feel bad for them - many jumped at the contract and they have to live with it for AT LEAST 7 years. I really hope OEC copycat corporations don't infiltrate any other specialties in dentistry, or health care in general.

 

[Geezer99]

In terms of OEC - their philosophy stinks. Just look at all the conditions they place on graduates - that's bound to affect the professionalism and clinical practice of the orthodontist. I cannot judge any graduate from OEC - I'm sure many will be very skilled - but truthfully I feel bad for them - many jumped at the contract and they have to live with it for AT LEAST 7 years. I really hope OEC copycat corporations don't infiltrate any other specialties in dentistry, or health care in general.

As someone considering the OEC route, I have thought alot about the effect OEC will have on the profession. After 7 years associating, I would hope I would be ready to break out and open my own office. I think that Imagine offices will have very little effect on the overall market. GP's have had the same heated discussions about managed care. Many call anyone who works with an HMO insurance "bottom dwelling scum suckers" (quote from Dentaltown forum). Yet, with all the HMO's out there, it is still very lucrative to open a fee for service office. They are not all going out of business because Aetna has found a way to make dentists do pulp/crowns for a $0 copay.

My opinion: if you don't like it, don't sign up for it. If nobody did, they would surely go out of business....end of discussion. If it infiltrates to other specialties, then so be it....same situation. Don't sign up unless you want to.

I think that in 10 years orthodontists will still be the "most overpaid dental specialty", and OEC will be going strong. The two surely will co-exist, I am sure of that.

 

[toofache32]

...I think that in 10 years orthodontists will still be the "most overpaid dental specialty", and OEC will be going strong. The two surely will co-exist, I am sure of that.

I've always had ortho as a backup plan in case I get all my fingers accidentally cut off. Right, Jedi?

 

[gryffindor]

As someone considering the OEC route, I have thought alot about the effect OEC will have on the profession. After 7 years associating, I would hope I would be ready to break out and open my own office. I think that Imagine offices will have very little effect on the overall market. GP's have had the same heated discussions about managed care. Many call anyone who works with an HMO insurance "bottom dwelling scum suckers" (quote from Dentaltown forum). Yet, with all the HMO's out there, it is still very lucrative to open a fee for service office. They are not all going out of business because Aetna has found a way to make dentists do pulp/crowns for a $0 copay.

My opinion: if you don't like it, don't sign up for it. If nobody did, they would surely go out of business....end of discussion. If it infiltrates to other specialties, then so be it....same situation. Don't sign up unless you want to.

I think that in 10 years orthodontists will still be the "most overpaid dental specialty", and OEC will be going strong. The two surely will co-exist, I am sure of that.

Not to dissuade you, but where in the country are you located? If you are unhappy as an associate now, can you stay sane through 7 more years of the OEC contract? I am associating now, not terribly thrilled with it, can't imagine putting up with that much more time under someone else's watch. There are some active GP posters on DT who have mostly-ortho practices, I think location has a lot to do with it.

But if it's going to make you happy, good luck with your decision either way.

 

[allexsimmons]

What is OEC? Does it make you a certified orthrodontist?

 

[Geezer99]

I'm located in Denver. It's not really the "working for someone else" that I hate as much as just plain doing general dentistry. There are some procedures that I enjoy, but the bulk of it (prosthetics) I could do without.

Maybe I'll regret my decision, maybe I won't even get accepted,..life is a gamble.

I'm really not interested in just taking some weekend warrior CE course and doing ortho. I do believe that there is a reason that they consider it a specialty, and they don't spend two years laughing and snickering because the GP's don't know how easy ortho really is.