OEC Problems?

[vorosvirag]

I never said the JU program director is leaving JU. He left another school for JU. I don't like Lazzara, I'm not a fan of his plan, but I do like the residents. I separate Lazzara, and the plan from the people involved in the plan (as long as those people didn't create the plan).

I know a handful of OEC residents, too. I like them on a personal level. However, I can't agree w/ their decision. They didn't draw up the plan, but they're actively carrying it out. They're Lazzara's instruments.

I understand your claim that the program director, the students, and everyone is separate from corporate OEC. I just don't believe it is completely separate. OEC's corporate side cannot function w/o the education arm. That's the way they drew it up. Nobody (at least not a bunch per year x 3 schools) would work according to OEC's terms if they weren't forced to. And nobody would allow themselves to be forced to work that way if they had a viable alternative. OCA (Lazzara's ortho company immediately prior to OEC) went belly up because they couldn't get orthodontists to work for them. So, they knew they had to get in the business of education. Sign kids up for ortho school, make them work for you after, and make lots of $.

OEC and their hand-picked students are coupled through the admissions process. That's why most of us feel the school itself and its residents are also connected to OEC and share in its stigma and tarnished reputation. As much as they would like, the education arm cannot be entirely independent.

This is why you can't fully separate the people involved in the plan, in my opinion. They are in the plan. The plan doesn't work w/o them.

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[wayoutwest]

Keep your chin up, wayoutwest. You've chosen wisely. It's not easy to make decisions like you have. But, in the long (sometimes very long) run you'll be grateful. PM me if I can be of any help.

Thanks for the backup. Hopefully this year turns out better.

 

[vorosvirag]

I think the fact the JU program director wants to bail and get a position at another school speaks volumes of where he thinks JU ortho is going.

Is this true? The guy's leaving?

 

[antidentite]

wayoutwest -
good luck this cycle. i have alot of respect for people who reapply. do not be embarassed about mentioning this is your second go around at your interviews. i know for a fact that means something to those making decisions - when they know you had the opportunity to go the OEC route and had the integrity and respect for the profession to do it the right way. best of luck, i am pulling for you.

 

[See's]

I am a orthodontist that graduated from a non oec school. This thread caught my attention so I thought I would join. I have a question for all those involved here. With the current number of graduating ortho residents do you think that there will be a shortage, adequate, or excess supply to meet the demand in the coming years? Also, same question for general dentists.

 

[edgewiseguy]

The JU ortho director interviewed for a position at nova last month right after OEC troubles became public.

 

[Firm]

Thanks S files. Good luck to you to. I've got 3 this year, so it's looking up a bit. I almost got sucked in to the OEC too, but I am glad not to be part of it now.

This is exactly what I have been arguing about the last few days! You are not sucked into OEC when you go non-scholarship. People are making it sound like you either have to take the scholarship or don't apply to the school. Just because you go to any of the schools, you are not obligated to OEC unless you sign all of their contracts. Good Luck getting in, and I hope you don't have to spend next year doing MODBL amalgams.

 

[Firm]

I am a orthodontist that graduated from a non oec school. This thread caught my attention so I thought I would join. I have a question for all those involved here. With the current number of graduating ortho residents do you think that there will be a shortage, adequate, or excess supply to meet the demand in the coming years? Also, same question for general dentists.

I think there is an overall shortage, however, it's nothing like pedo. I think in 10 years there will be less orthodontists than today even with the new schools. 9000 total today with an median age of 55. There will be a lot of people leaving soon.

 

[vorosvirag]

I think there is an overall shortage, however, it's nothing like pedo. I think in 10 years there will be less orthodontists than today even with the new schools. 9000 total today with an median age of 55. There will be a lot of people leaving soon.

Firm,

Please answer my question:

How can you let the OEC students "off the hook" since they're the servants of OEC? I want to see how you balance this in your mind. You seem to excuse the OEC students of any accountability, yet you consider Lazzara something close to the devil. They're carrying out the OEC plan. They are as much OEC for seven years as Lazarra himself.

 

[wayoutwest]

This is exactly what I have been arguing about the last few days! You are not sucked into OEC when you go non-scholarship. People are making it sound like you either have to take the scholarship or don't apply to the school. Just because you go to any of the schools, you are not obligated to OEC unless you sign all of their contracts. Good Luck getting in, and I hope you don't have to spend next year doing MODBL amalgams.

I did apply to CU non OEC, and didn't get an interview. It wasn't until the post match phase, when OEC spots where all that was left, that they wanted to interview me. Again, I'm happier every day that I'm not mixed up in that.

 

[S Files]

who is arguing that Griffin is at an OEC school? S files said something about it, sorry, I responded to two different things there.

hee??!! griffin is bored in cashville. i never said griffin is at an oec school....don't know where that came from. what i said was oec was preying on applicants who were desperate, and griffin (and myself, and hundreds of others) have been desperate. please re-read the post. thankfully 99% of us didn't take the bait and re-applyed.

 

[S Files]

Ok long post, so let's summarize:
1.) Lazzara will be back, so watch out
2.) Don't have anything to do with him
3.) There is a distinction between the company OEC, school, program director, faculty, OEC-residents, and non OEC-residents
4.) JU signed the deal with the devil, and can't get out.
5.) Being moral or immoral has nothing to do with your affiliation with OEC
6.) The OEC people are responsibly for bring down OEC
7.) The number of new programs is not going to flood the market

So my advice is to apply to as many programs as posible. (OEC-affiliated and non-OEC affiliated) Take as many interviews as you can. Go to whatever school you can get into. Stay away from any deals with Lazzara. Learn as much ortho as you can. Treat people the way you would want to be treated. If you ever get the opportunity to shake Lazzara's hand, count your fingers afterward to make sure you still have 5.

i don't agree at all with this distinction theory of yours. yes, lazaara's the big bad guy. but with unified organized dentistry (ada, etc) he could've been opposed. program director aligned himself with the big bad guy (so the PD's not the big bad guy, but still a guy who made a selfish, STUPID decision....some people would call him a bad guy). you can't say oh i just wanna teach, and then ignore all the surroundings, circumstances and ramifications behind your position....c'mon now. residents took part in this (both oec and non-oec - oec residents more than non-oec but both are part of it) very dangerous corporate education model. i refuse to let them off the hook. I LOVE HOW THEY'RE ALL PLAYING THE "OH LITTLE INNOCENT ME" CARD. just be honest about it. PD was getting a salary more than anywhere else in the country. he should be forced to remain in that position for the next 10 years. residents....well i won't get into this again and again...

 

[S Files]

I am a orthodontist that graduated from a non oec school. This thread caught my attention so I thought I would join. I have a question for all those involved here. With the current number of graduating ortho residents do you think that there will be a shortage, adequate, or excess supply to meet the demand in the coming years? Also, same question for general dentists.

hello. i suggest you do your own research. lots of guess data thrown around here on sdn if u haven't noticed already. most of us are against oec/jax/unlv/col NOT because we're afraid of competition, but because of the corporate education model, indentured servitude, etc they are trying to implement. as a general rule, a lot depends on where the dentist/orthodontist will set up the practice (rural where there are often long waiting lists vs. city/suburb where there may be excess).

 

[wayoutwest]

hee??!! griffin is bored in cashville. i never said griffin is at an oec school....don't know where that came from. what i said was oec was preying on applicants who were desperate, and griffin (and myself, and hundreds of others) have been desperate. please re-read the post. thankfully 99% of us didn't take the bait and re-applyed.

You had quoted Griffin on page 3, but she was referring to Firm's previous post, so maybe you were referring to Firm, not her. Sorry.

 

[vorosvirag]

i don't agree at all with this distinction theory of yours. yes, lazaara's the big bad guy. but with unified organized dentistry (ada, etc) he could've been opposed. program director aligned himself with the big bad guy (so the PD's not the big bad guy, but still a guy who made a selfish, STUPID decision....some people would call him a bad guy). you can't say oh i just wanna teach, and then ignore all the surroundings, circumstances and ramifications behind your position....c'mon now. residents took part in this (both oec and non-oec - oec residents more than non-oec but both are part of it) very dangerous corporate education model. i refuse to let them off the hook. I LOVE HOW THEY'RE ALL PLAYING THE "OH LITTLE INNOCENT ME" CARD. just be honest about it. PD was getting a salary more than anywhere else in the country. he should be forced to remain in that position for the next 10 years. residents....well i won't get into this again and again...

Well said, S Files. It's not that I want to batter OEC, the three school directors, its OEC and non-OEC students for the next millenium. However, I do think some accountability is in order. I believe your right on with your "little innocent" card analysis.

Everyone is involved in this. I think Lazzara is at the high end of the continuum. But the schools, directors, faculty, and students (OEC more, but non-OEC still a little) were all in on the scheme and fall somewhere on the guilty-by-association-with-OEC continuum.

The students were the most desperate but exercised poor judgement in my opinion. Directors and other faculty were already in short supply and were probably looking for a big opportunity for cash.

 

[See's]

Does anyone know why Lazzara is late on his payments? Is it because he underestimated the capital requirements of his business venture? I have also heard that before he announced that he would not make his promised payments some of the "scholarship" students sued to get out of their contract. Can anyone shed light on this? I got this information from a ortho supply rep. who services one of the oec programs....so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[vorosvirag]

Does anyone know why Lazzara is late on his payments? Is it because he underestimated the capital requirements of his business venture? I have also heard that before he announced that he would not make his promised payments some of the "scholarship" students sued to get out of their contract. Can anyone shed light on this? I got this information from a ortho supply rep. who services one of the oec programs....so take it with a grain of salt.

In a story carried by the Denver Post a few months ago, I believe Lazarra himself stated that "his eyes were bigger than his stomach." In other words they grew too quickly. They expanded to three schools, had too many offices to open, people to pay, etc. In short, poor management & poor planning. Firm goes further to say poor leadership that can't be trusted.

He failed w/ OCA. I think OCA stood for Orthodontic Corporation of America (his first version similar to OEC). A guy whose got bankruptcy on his credit hx isn't someone I'd want to do business w/--regardless of his justifications/excuses. Now, w/ OEC in the toilet I don't know why anyone who invest in him.

I'm also not surprised people started to sue to get out of their lousy contracts. Those suing were probably those at JU who were approaching graduation. I believe CU and UNLV are graduating their first classes this spring. I heard stories of Lazzara changing things (not just minor) even during residency. Firm and others associated w/ OEC are probably familiar w/ specific stories.

I found these links to stories about the OEC meltdown earlier in the thread:

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4292362

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4270786

http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_4280785

These may shed light on your questions.

 

[vorosvirag]

Here's another story from a Jacksonville paper I found earlier in the thread that my answer some of your questions:

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092406/bus_4927360.shtml

 

[Firm]

I let the OEC students off the hook because they were taking advantage of a opportunity of a lifetime. Many of them would never have become orthodontists (because of the way the application process works). Along comes a guy who says that they can get into ortho, and stop doing MODBLXYZ amalgams and make the same salary as they were making in general. They all jumped at the chance to do this. It's hard for me to fault somebody for trying to make their life better by taking a golden opportunity. For example, the president of the United States wasn't the most qualifed person available for the job in 2000. However, because of his name, and connections he was able to take advantage of a once in a lifetime opportunity. Although I think there were better people for the job (I don't want to get into a politcal discussion), I can't fault him for his decision.
This is JU's second program director. The first one quit because he refused to let OEC influence him. The program director now was on faculty, and just stepped up to fill the job.
S-files- You are not fooling anybody with your "concern" about the corporate education model, and the indenture servitude. Your concern is that too many orthodontist will flood the market and lower your income. Also, you are upset that you worked so hard to get into ortho to have "bottom-feeders" get into ortho so easy.
I feel for you guys, and gals that had great numbers coming out of dental school, but had to wait to get into ortho school. You believed in something, stuck by your guns, and paid the price for it. That's noble. I was in the same situation as you all, good grades, not sure if I would get in, dreading having to do MODBLXYZ amalgams, molar endo, and perio. I had a chance to go to an OEC-affiliated school non-scholarship, and I took it. To me social clubs, and fraternities don't matter much. I wanted the best education, with the best supplies. It's all about what you value most.

A couple of corrections- Lazzara left OCA in 2001, so he wasn't there for the bankruptcy. He's got a habit of hiring family, and friends who aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. The CU class revolted after finding out that Lazzara changed their contract.
The fall of OEC:
January 2006 -Lazzara couldn't pay UNLV 1.5 mil.
March 2006- CU class revolted after finding out about the change in their contract
March 2006- Lazzara couldn't pay CU 1.5 mil
April 2006- JU residents were disgruntled because the offices were going to open late
June 2006- Some of the residents weren't able to work in the offices that OEC could get open due to board licensure issues, and other commitments
Keep in mind the 22 offices that were open weren't making any money.

 

[gryffindor]

Good discussions. No I didn't apply to any OEC programs, but OEC is definitely very tempting when you are faced with doing MODBL composites everyday. I was tempted but didn't want to commit 7 years of my life to them working in an Imagine clinic in a non-ideal location (for me). I wanted to be an orthodontist, but not badly enough to spend seven years unhappy in my location and disrupting the lives of my (hypothetical) spouse/children. I think the sob stories in those articles make it clear how the lives of the residents & their families have been disrupted. Firm makes a good point though on why people may have sold out to OEC contracts.

How exactly did the Colorado class revolt?

 

[omfsres]

.

 

[See's]

Vorosvirag,
Thank you for finding the links.

 

[See's]

Firm,
I have a question for you. If you do feel that there really is a shortage in terms of orthodontists then why are the Imagine clinics not making any money? Also, if many orthodontists are retiring why is oec having to open offices from scratch as opposed to purchasing existing practices from retiring docs?

 

[Firm]

Firm,
I have a question for you. If you do feel that there really is a shortage in terms of orthodontists then why are the Imagine clinics not making any money? Also, if many orthodontists are retiring why is oec having to open offices from scratch as opposed to purchasing existing practices from retiring docs?

This tells alot about Lazzara's leadership. He put 6 clinics in Jacksonville, 5 in Phoenix, 3 in Vegas. These places aren't hurting for Orthodontists, and all three have ortho programs. doh! Lazzara wanted to open all the offices from scratch in order to have a brand name. He wanted all the offices to look the same. I think there was a problem with the OCA offices not all having the same name, or look. When it looked like Lazzara was going to go under he tried to purchase existing offices, but too little, too late. My guess is in his next scheme he will place residents into existing practices. Not only do you have to make the decision of whether you want to work for OEC, you have to make the decision of whether you want to work for OCA.

Griffin04- You had three choices, 1.) Non-OEC school 2.)OEC school non-scholarship 3.)OEC school with scholarship.

 

[Firm]

Just an observation from the peanut gallery, but that could have been the most subjective argument ever made.


Basically its worthless.


Sorry for the interruption, you may all return to bashing firm for his false, immoral logic now.

I wasn't trying to bash Bush. Just saying there were more qualified candidates from the republican party. (McCain, Tommy Thomson, Tom Ridge, Jack Kemp, George Pataki for example)

 

[See's]

Firm,
do you know if any of the contract obligated residents sued to get out of their contract prior to any of Lazarra's financial problems?

 

[gryffindor]

Griffin04- You had three choices, 1.) Non-OEC school 2.)OEC school non-scholarship 3.)OEC school with scholarship.

I know people who applied to the OEC school non-scholarship positions, got invited to interview before the match, but got shady answers when they specifically asked "Am I interviewing for a scholarship or non-scholarship position." I had read that there were only 2/16 non-scholarship positions at JU & CU so I figured it was a really small chance of getting one of those spots. I learned much later that the year I matched, UNLV offered 8/16 spots non-scholarship. However, my gut didn't really trust OEC with the non-scholarshp spots either. I could have been told I'm interviewing for a non-scholarship spot to get me out there, but then after the interview they would say "Sorry, we can't offer you a non-scholarship spot but we'll take you for a scholarship position. Take it or leave it." Then I would find myself in a really tough position because on one hand I would have this chance to skip the match and be an orthodontist along with the crappy commitment to be their 7-year Imagine slave, but on the other hand, I would have to go back to doing MODBFL composites because I didn't want that crappy commitment and I might not match. I just didn't want to face that possible scenario so to make it easier on myself, I didn't apply. I figured I'd deal with that possibility if I didn't match after my shotgun application spree.

However, I don't blame those of you who took the non-scholarship spots because you really don't owe OEC anything after you finisehd your education.

 

[vorosvirag]

Firm,

I know you encourage everyone to apply to as many non-OEC and OEC programs as possible to increase chances to match. I still stand by my position, however, to avoid the three historic OEC schools (UNLV, CU, and JU).

During the summer, I spoke w/ an ortho applicant who is a close friend of a non-OEC resident at an OEC program. The resident counseled the ortho applicant to not take a position at any of the three schools. When the interviewing student asked for specifics, the resident did not elaborate. The resident just repeated the recommendation to attend another program.

This probably has happened in lots of instances where the OEC or non-OEC resident at the OEC institution tells those he/she cares about the truth. And that truth is that the OEC association may not be worth it. For you, Firm, maybe it has been. You sound convinced. Yet, at least this kid I heard about has serious regrets and privately warned a friend. And I haven't heard many other outspoken OEC or non-OEC folks from the three schools defend their positions, as you've chosen to do. I would guess most have misgivings similar to the example I shared above.

I promise I talked to this applicant. This applicant told me from his/her own mouth. This person could be making up the story, but to me it's a credible story. So, Firm, you may feel fine w/ your decision as non-OEC. Just realize that others do not. Some of them may even have recommendations for the younger generation that are opposite of yours. "Stay away," they say.

By the way, are the three schools part of the Match this year? Or will CU, JU, and UNLV contact people before the Match and put tremendous pressure on students?

 

[Holy Thursday]

I wasn't trying to bash Bush. Just saying there were more qualified candidates from the republican party. (McCain, Tommy Thomson, Tom Ridge, Jack Kemp, George Pataki for example)

Another example would be my big toe!

 

[Holy Thursday]

Just some thoughts:

If you can't blame OEC residents for going after a seemingly-golden educational opportunity, how can you bash Lazzarra for going after a seemingly-golden financial opportunity? I mean, have any of you considered bashing the federal government for the loan repayment program? It has serious obligations in return for forgiving some student loans. It's the opportunity of a lifetime for some graduates who are several hundred thousand dollars in debt. For example, if the clinic you are working for decides to shut down after one year, you are still responsible for finishing your contract (along with some hefty requirements you have to meet) or you can be forced to pay federal fines of at minimum $30,000. Yet no one bashes the feds for this program. Yes, I understand that the feds aren't making money off of this program, but who says a contract can't be a win-win situation as was possibly the aspiration of OEC?

Is it possible that OEC may not be hell and that Lazzarra isn't Satan? I mean, it's not like students are finding out about their obligations halfway through their residency. They had a chance to read the contract before signing it and joining the program. They knew what they were getting into (at least to a certain degree). anyways, don't you guys know how often business gets involved in schools anyways...they just aren't as well-publicized. I can think of a few profs who were clearly puppets of many big corporations at my alma mater. Also, how many of you know people who got into a ds because of their name or because their daddy donated tons of money to the school? I'm not saying it is right. I'm just saying that it happens and that money influences education more than we are willing to acknowledge.

Is it possible that the residents in OEC positions are just as qualified as those in non-OEC positions? I mean, how many of you ppl who were totally qualified but did not get in anywhere? clearly, There are more qualified applicants than there are positions.

sorry, I am just not as pessimistic as the rest of you who think that education is pristine as long as corporate fingers don't stir the waters. I mean, ppl think that education is driven by the strict and pristine pursuit for education and therefore it would be tainted if big-business got involved. However, what happens when big-egos get involved? big-egos are all over the map in an educational environment. the answer: the exact same thing as when big-business gets involved...some good comes out of it...some bad comes out of it

 

[Firm]

Is it possible that OEC may not be hell and that Lazzarra isn't Satan? I mean, it's not like students are finding out about their obligations halfway through their residency.

It's pretty much consensus that Lazzara is Satan. Students were actually finding out about their obligations halfway through their residency. In the case at CU it was at the end of their residency. That's why they revolted, and partly why OEC went under.

 

[helico]

Is it possible that the residents in OEC positions are just as qualified as those in non-OEC positions?

No

 

[Str8Wire]

No

Agreed!!

 

[TKD]

I applied to JU Non-OEC, was accepted Non-OEC, before school started I contemplated signing with them to pay for my education. OEC works by giving you three contracts, and all three have to be signed in order to be bound by the them. I signed the Education Agreement before school started, but we could never come to terms on the Practice Agreement or the Business Agreement. They use a bait and switch with these contracts which is unethical, and possibly illegal. What they promised to me was that I would get 40% or $150,000 if I worked at an office (in a location that I was going to anyway). I would be able to work outside, and I didn't have to work a specific amount of hours. To me this is a no-brainer. They wanted to pay for school, and pay me to work in their office (which I knew was going to fail), all while starting my own office on the other side of town. However, the deal kept changing, and ultimately I turned them down.

Originally Posted by Firm:
"As somebody who signed up for the 7 years of indentured servitude, I am beginning to see what con artists they are."


"Never could come to terms on the agreement." Dude there's no compromise, no "coming to terms." The terms are whatever the heck OEC say they are. And you have to work for a specific number of hours. Nice try. Nice long post there, in which you tried to divert attention away from the fact that you lied about being OEC, and tried to weave some convoluted story about some make believe position you were offered. So you lied, or at least misled about being OEC. You're 60% legacy "research" was exposed as false. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could take every single statement you made and expose them for being false. Frankly, I have a life and don't have that kind of time. I'm losing brain cells reading your posts.

 

[Jachyra]

Nice long post there, in which you tried to divert attention away from the fact that you lied about being OEC, and tried to weave some convoluted story about some make believe position you were offered. So you lied, or at least misled about being OEC. You're 60% legacy "research" was exposed as false. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could take every single statement you made and expose them for being false. Frankly, I have a life and don't have that kind of time. I'm losing brain cells reading your posts.

In the same post where he said he signed up for the "7 years of indentured servitude," he also said this:

Then a couple of days before the residency started, and 9 months after I turned down a couple of other ortho schools (contrary to popular belief some of us could get into other ortho programs, we just don't want to live on the other side of the country), they hand me another contract which says that I am now financially liable if the practice doesn't make money. They told me sign it or don't start school next week.

Firm, the fact that you would not have been allowed to start school without signing the OEC's new contract shows that you were in deep. You are not "non-OEC" - quit this charade.

 

[Firm]

Originally Posted by Firm:
"As somebody who signed up for the 7 years of indentured servitude, I am beginning to see what con artists they are."


"Never could come to terms on the agreement." Dude there's no compromise, no "coming to terms." The terms are whatever the heck OEC say they are. And you have to work for a specific number of hours. Nice try. Nice long post there, in which you tried to divert attention away from the fact that you lied about being OEC, and tried to weave some convoluted story about some make believe position you were offered. So you lied, or at least misled about being OEC. You're 60% legacy "research" was exposed as false. In fact, I'm pretty sure I could take every single statement you made and expose them for being false. Frankly, I have a life and don't have that kind of time. I'm losing brain cells reading your posts.

You obviously don't know anything about the OEC contracts, so please crawl back into your little hole. The terms were not what OEC said they were and I chose not to take them. However this is not what they originally presented to me. They obviously had no control over me starting school because the school had already accepted me. Despite their bluff, I started without signing their other two contracts. Both of you are entitled to your own opinions but you are not entitled to your own facts!

 

[S Files]

gotta love Firm saying "9 months after I turned down a couple other ortho schools".....geez....the bullsh1t's getting deeper and deeper...

 

[S Files]

S-files- You are not fooling anybody with your "concern" about the corporate education model, and the indenture servitude. Your concern is that too many orthodontist will flood the market and lower your income. Also, you are upset that you worked so hard to get into ortho to have "bottom-feeders" get into ortho so easy.

Firm - you're in the minority here. yes, the vast majority of us professionals are concerned about the dignity of our profession. by "us" i don't only refer to orthodontists/future orthodontists, but dentists, and health care professionals in all fields. i guess i shouldn't expect you to understand this, since you're ok with getting pimped. i am not worried at all about competition my friend. especially from practices that are "not turning a profit," and whose doctors are fine with "picking their nose all day." lastly, i am not an orthodontist, nor am i an ortho resident - if you actually read my posts i am in the midst of the application cycle. i am sorry you are not able to view things from a wider perspective.

 

[Firm]

Firm - you're in the minority here. yes, the vast majority of us professionals are concerned about the dignity of our profession. by "us" i don't only refer to orthodontists/future orthodontists, but dentists, and health care professionals in all fields. i guess i shouldn't expect you to understand this, since you're ok with getting pimped. i am not worried at all about competition my friend. especially from practices that are "not turning a profit," and whose doctors are fine with "picking their nose all day." lastly, i am not an orthodontist, nor am i an ortho resident - if you actually read my posts i am in the midst of the application cycle. i am sorry you are not able to view things from a wider perspective.

Get into school, graduate, then view things from a wider perspective.

 

[Holy Thursday]

How many OEC spots are available each year from the combined "axis of evil" (CU, JU, UNLV)? Probably no more than 50. You really mean to tell me that there are not at least 50 well-qualified applicants every year that fail to get into an ortho residency. If that is the case, then you are basically saying that ortho is not that competitive. I mean, because if it were competitive, then they would have tons (more than 50) of qualified applicants that get rejected every year. But since they don't have at least 50 that get rejected, it must not be that competitive. Thus, I argue that OEC residents are just as qualified.

 

[vorosvirag]

How many OEC spots are available each year from the combined "axis of evil" (CU, JU, UNLV)? Probably no more than 50. You really mean to tell me that there are not at least 50 well-qualified applicants every year that fail to get into an ortho residency. If that is the case, then you are basically saying that ortho is not that competitive. I mean, because if it were competitive, then they would have tons (more than 50) of qualified applicants that get rejected every year. But since they don't have at least 50 that get rejected, it must not be that competitive. Thus, I argue that OEC residents are just as qualified.

Many competitive students don't match into ortho, you're right. On average, though, the most competitive students do match. Having said that, I've know some of the most competitive students who did not match. That is more of the exception than the rule. But, it happens to more qualified students in ortho than in surg, endo, pedo, and the others (in my opinion and experience). On average, the students who don't match are less competitive than those who do match.

What happens to those who don't match? Some try another specialty. Some do GP. I would guess the best qualified in the non-matched group commit to re-apply conventially because they have hope of matching next year. I've known many in this category. I believe (Firm does not) that those less-qualified students who don't match are lured into OEC-related schools if they didn't sign already in a pre-match arrangement.

So, whereas everyone is "competitive," I believe there are degrees. Those in the "highest" degrees, if you will, do (on average) not join the "Axis of Evil" as you so well put it. Those of lesser degrees (on average) consider options and go with the dark side.

I see the #s of kids were interviewing at my school and they're outstanding. I doubt the OEC folks get students of this same caliber. Further, the non-OEC students at Vegas, etc. are likely stronger than the pure OEC candidates. The pure OEC students, therefore, are in fact at the bottom of the barrel.

It's simple economics: supply and demand. Fewer want the OEC spots. All want the ortho program w/ $, assistants, little research, good atmosphere, etc.

 

[vorosvirag]

Get into school, graduate, then view things from a wider perspective.

I know lots of orthodontists much older than you, Firmie Boy, who do not share your grand perspective. You've broadened yours in a unique way.

Many--old and young--do not share your vision. I'm surprised you haven't figured that out yet.

 

[Firm]

Ha! I love it! Axis of Evil!

 

[vorosvirag]

Ha! I love it! Axis of Evil!

You're right, Firm. OEC never had plans to create nuclear weapons. Yet, in its own way, OEC was very radical and outside the mainstream in all its behaviors. I think that's why our eloquent friend Holy Thursday dubbed OEC the "axis of evil." I like it, actually. I think it's going to stick nicely.

 

[Holy Thursday]

The pure OEC students, therefore, are in fact at the bottom of the barrel.

Bottom of the barrel?! Maybe I could get in!

 

[QCkid]

Bottom of the barrel?! Maybe I could get in!

I doubt that. We said bottom of the barrel but not perio bottom of the barrel.

 

[vorosvirag]

I doubt that. We said bottom of the barrel but not perio bottom of the barrel.

Perhaps I should have said, "the bottom of the ortho barrel." The ortho barrel holds different apples, let's say, than the perio barrel. No offense intended, but I think most people know that.

However, with the advent of OEC I bet many people who would otherwise have no business considering ortho have given it a shot. And some have gotten in. Their getting in has been a result of a broadening effect OEC has had on credentials needed. As I said earlier, those lowest-tier students (on average) go to the least-desirable programs--pure OEC.

True, some people who were not adequately or relatively qualified (compared to peers who may not match) always get into traditional programs due to politics or whatever. This isn't "fair." But, OEC has dropped the overall requirements needed for the average applicant. The best students (on average, w/ the exception of Firm, of course) avoid OEC.

Every year in ortho you see a handful of students who were top 5 w/ 95+ on boards who didn't match. Some may go OEC, but I bet the majority return to the traditional ortho application cycle. That is why senior dental students w/ super grades don't stand out as well as they would w/o this "backlog" effect from superbly qualified unmatched students from the year before. I doubt this "backlog" effect is found in Perio or Pros.

 

[Firm]

Perhaps I should have said, "the bottom of the ortho barrel." The ortho barrel holds different apples, let's say, than the perio barrel. No offense intended, but I think most people know that.

However, with the advent of OEC I bet many people who would otherwise have no business considering ortho have given it a shot. And some have gotten in. Their getting in has been a result of a broadening effect OEC has had on credentials needed. As I said earlier, those lowest-tier students (on average) go to the least-desirable programs--pure OEC.

True, some people who were not adequately or relatively qualified (compared to peers who may not match) always get into traditional programs due to politics or whatever. This isn't "fair." But, OEC has dropped the overall requirements needed for the average applicant. The best students (on average, w/ the exception of Firm, of course) avoid OEC.

Every year in ortho you see a handful of students who were top 5 w/ 95+ on boards who didn't match. Some may go OEC, but I bet the majority return to the traditional ortho application cycle. That is why senior dental students w/ super grades don't stand out as well as they would w/o this "backlog" effect from superbly qualified unmatched students from the year before. I doubt this "backlog" effect is found in Perio or Pros.

Perio usually gets the second tier students, but there is no doubt in my mind that they could do ortho if given the opportunity. In Pros, dental skills matter more than grades. As far as OEC scholarship students, some are bottom of the barrel. All are at least in the top 50%, and 80 on Part I. I think that was atleast the requirement. Vorosvirag- Why are you a Senior member and I'm only a member?

 

[north2southOMFS]

Vorosvirag- Why are you a Senior member and I'm only a member?

SDN uses a moral compass to determine who gets seniority.

 

[vorosvirag]

SDN uses a moral compass to determine who gets seniority.

I appreciate the compliment, my surgery colleague. I have no real idea why. Do I get any benefits w/ such seniority?