OEC Problems?

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Geezer99 said:
Medicaid pays $2800 in CO for full treatment. I asked and the school said that their patient base is approx. 30% medicaid. 27 mo is a pretty conservative estimate, considering the majority of cases are probably class 1 crowding cases that take 10 mo. Of course some cases are going to take longer, but I haven't heard anything from the patients regarding inefficient clinics or excessive waiting times. Keep in mind that all of the residents are doctors, and probably do not need constant assistance from faculty.

Not interested in a back and forth here but I disagree, due to from what I've been told. Yes I know residents are doctors but still don't know **** about ortho..let's be honest here. I have been told about decreasing #pts/clinic time due to inefficient assistance from faculty. 30% medicaid is low, and lest we forget a lot of free care that is provided to some of the craniofacial cases. I guess these patients of yours you are referring about have much better experience than I've heard of.

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Geezer99 said:
As a GP about a mile from the CU dental school, I looked into the ortho program as a possible place to refer. They charge $3200 for comprehensive tx on children, and $3300 for adults. Since orthodontists in this area charge anywhere from $3500-$5500, I wouldn't consider their fees ridiculous. The residents I've met have 50-55 starts, but they seem to still be accepting new patients. I imagine that after a while they will have to have their residents start fewer patients, as cases get passed down. Not sure what this will do to their bottom line, but from what I can see, right now their ortho program is making lots of money. With each resident having 50 patients at all times, there are 1600 patients being treated. With average tx time of 27 mo. that's about $190,000/mo or $2.275 million /year.

Assuming they can churn out patients in 27 mo. I don't see why this wouldn't be sustainable.


Actually, they would have about 800 new starts per year, which would be about half of the figure you quoted. 800 new starts per year at an academic institution that doesn't have OEC marketing and support may be pushing it, particularly when you have your Castle Dental/Monarchs of the world who advertise profusely. The dental community puts pressure on dental schools/residencies to not advertise. The figures I have heard from various sources quote about 2250 per case for the OEC programs as the OEC support was able to drive down their costs so they could undercut the Castle/Monarch chains. That may not happen now. If they were charging 3300 before and getting 800 cases per year, then bully for them (I don't believe it). The town I live in is probably twice as big as denver and services a much larger area and my residency would struggle to support more than four residents with similar fees. Look for CU and UNLV to stay in business but eventually take fewer residents.
 
Geezer99 said:
Medicaid pays $2800 in CO for full treatment. I asked and the school said that their patient base is approx. 30% medicaid. 27 mo is a pretty conservative estimate, considering the majority of cases are probably class 1 crowding cases that take 10 mo. Of course some cases are going to take longer, but I haven't heard anything from the patients regarding inefficient clinics or excessive waiting times.

I cannot speak for all orthodontic programs, but at UNC they specifically screen for good "teaching cases" and they don't treat the same percentage of Class I patients as a private practice orthodontist. Even if you are going to predominately treat Class I crowding as an orthodontist you should still receive adequate training in more complex cases. What you state implies that OEC programs offer inferior training focused more on generating revenue than on training orthodontist. I hope this is not true. You appear to publicly deride these programs albeit in a subtle manner. This is not fair to these programs if what you state is fallacious. However, if this is true, then these programs should make the necessary changes to provide adequate training.


Geezer99 said:
Keep in mind that all of the residents are doctors, and probably do not need constant assistance from faculty.

The critical element is learning. Just because I know one way to treat a particular case (and could proceed with a favorable outcome) I can still learn other ways through faculty interaction. The more different approaches I learn to the same/similar problems the more equipped I will be to function as an independent Orthodontist. Merely treating 50 cases does not qualify me to be an orthodontist. In fact there are many General Dentists who have completed hundreds of cases. However, if they were to attend an orthodontic residency they could still learn a great deal about different treatment options. This is often done through one-on-one interaction with faculty case-by-case. Adequate training requires adequate faculty support. Once again your arguments appear to attack the integrity and quality of these OEC programs.
 
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Tarheel said:
I cannot speak for all orthodontic programs, but at UNC they specifically screen for good "teaching cases" and they don't treat the same percentage of Class I patients as a private practice orthodontist. Even if you are going to predominately treat Class I crowding as an orthodontist you should still receive adequate training in more complex cases. What you state implies that OEC programs offer inferior training focused more on generating revenue than on training orthodontist. I hope this is not true. You appear to publicly deride these programs albeit in a subtle manner. This is not fair to these programs if what you state is fallacious. However, if this is true, then these programs should make the necessary changes to provide adequate training.




The critical element is learning. Just because I know one way to treat a particular case (and could proceed with a favorable outcome) I can still learn other ways through faculty interaction. The more different approaches I learn to the same/similar problems the more equipped I will be to function as an independent Orthodontist. Merely treating 50 cases does not qualify me to be an orthodontist. In fact there are many General Dentists who have completed hundreds of cases. However, if they were to attend an orthodontic residency they could still learn a great deal about different treatment options. This is often done through one-on-one interaction with faculty case-by-case. Adequate training requires adequate faculty support. Once again your arguments appear to attack the integrity and quality of these OEC programs.

This reply shows how the mantle of "future politician" has just been handed off. :)
 
Interesting quotes from the Denver Post articles:

The company terminated the contracts, and "frankly, they left my people in a lurch," Ogborn said. "We're trying to reach a mutual agreement on how to part ways cleanly."

Ogborn is a Denver attorney representing the 2nd-year ortho residents. Good luck w/ the clean departure. This entire thing is extremely sticky.

"I don't understand how I'm the bad guy here," Lazzara said.

Where do I start with this statement?

A look into the financial background of a Florida donor whose $95.7 million promise to the University of Colorado's dental school has collapsed could have revealed some red flags.

But all those academics were too busy dreaming about dollar signs. Desperate dental students and recent grads went w/ what they thought was their best and perhaps only option.

Lazzara did not return calls seeking comment, but his son, John Lazzara, said they still were in negotiations with CU and did not want to abandon their commitment. "It's a fairly new relationship," he said. "We have encountered some difficulty in terms of the execution of our vision of how the program was supposed to work."

Yeah. I'd say you've encountered a little difficulty. How about millions of little units of difficulty?


OEC is a wreck. I have a tough time sympathizing w/ those who signed up for any inconveniences/troubles they may encounter. They're just fortunate as can be to escape from those trash, servitude contracts. What changes for the non-OEC people at these schools? They still go and do their normal thing, right?
 
The AAO should really bring a class action lawsuit against this guy. Whether you buy OEC or not, what they are doing to the residents now is just plain criminal.

What happened to "how good of a guy" Lazzara is supposed to be? He left everybody holding the bag and he did it all for the good of the patient. Right! What a jerk!
 
Yep, the circus continues. I made the argument a few years back that autonomy was the primary reason to not consider OEC. These guys are learning lessons the hard way.

Further, I hope OEC gets hammered for their collapse. To leave so many stranded the way they did is inexcusable. That does not change the fact (in my opinion) that those who signed up were extremely short-sighted for doing so.
 
This article doesn't make the profession look good at all.

I'm thinking the public is looking at orthodontists as a bunch of serious whiners since they don't know the history of OEC or orthodontics. To the lay person reading this article, it sounds like it is about guys who are complaining they can't get their 6 figure salaries and make their mortgage payments on a half-million dollar house. And the one guy who's wife is expecting - the wife is a dentist, which we know isn't exactly a minimum wage profession either. The article is not talking about folks battling dire poverty here, it is talking about professionals complaining they can't make oodles of money because of some bad contract. Not good.

It also says they can't work in another orthodontic practice because of the contract with OEC. Can't these guys do GP? I mean if I was that strapped for cash and couldn't technically practice ortho, I would be pulling teeth and doing fillings in order to support my family until this mess resolved, not "living on credit cards."
 
This article doesn't make the profession look good at all.

I'm thinking the public is looking at orthodontists as a bunch of serious whiners since they don't know the history of OEC or orthodontics. To the lay person reading this article, it sounds like it is about guys who are complaining they can't get their 6 figure salaries and make their mortgage payments on a half-million dollar house. And the one guy who's wife is expecting - the wife is a dentist, which we know isn't exactly a minimum wage profession either. The article is not talking about folks battling dire poverty here, it is talking about professionals complaining they can't make oodles of money because of some bad contract. Not good.

It also says they can't work in another orthodontic practice because of the contract with OEC. Can't these guys do GP? I mean if I was that strapped for cash and couldn't technically practice ortho, I would be pulling teeth and doing fillings in order to support my family until this mess resolved, not "living on credit cards."

Well said, Griff. Nobody should feel more than a 1/4 ounce of sympathy for these characters. I know the average American can't identify w/ their "plight." They knew what they were getting into and still signed up.

Though OEC goofed up and should be reprimanded, sued, or whatever the lawyers come to, the folks who signed on the dotted line will not be spared grief/suffering. They tried to sneak in the ortho's back door and they knew it. Now, they're discovering they can't exit the same way other residents historically have.
 
Well said, Griff. Nobody should feel more than a 1/4 ounce of sympathy for these characters. I know the average American can't identify w/ their "plight." They knew what they were getting into and still signed up.

Though OEC goofed up and should be reprimanded, sued, or whatever the lawyers come to, the folks who signed on the dotted line will not be spared grief/suffering. They tried to sneak in the ortho's back door and they knew it. Now, they're discovering they can't exit the same way other residents historically have.


They signed up to work for OEC for seven years, not to be left without any income whatsoever. I have no problem with them having to work for OEC, but I REALLY have a problem with them not being able to work for a living. That is lame, and it would be lame if it happened to you too.
 
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LOL...these guys are crazy. The buy out for the one guy is "upwards of 75K" OMG! And hes sitting on 60K in debt from undergrad and dental school. boohoo. I feel so bad for the guy. yeah right.

OEC folding is a favor. This is the best thing that could have ever happened to them. Pay the money and run. My God
 
They signed up to work for OEC for seven years, not to be left without any income whatsoever. I have no problem with them having to work for OEC, but I REALLY have a problem with them not being able to work for a living. That is lame, and it would be lame if it happened to you too.

It would be lame. It is unfortunate for them, I agree. I don't think these folks deserve what they're getting. It just is what they're getting. OEC was not to be trusted. The students signed a contract and OEC messed up a lot of things, including some of these guys' futures. That's not nice.

These are the consequences none of us predicted. None of knew what OEC would really do to those who signed up or to those of us who didn't and eventually had to compete w/ them. I'm just grateful I followed my better judgement and avoided the OEC schools when I applied. Most of us were too nervous to consider what might become of our futures if we did.

I'm surprised you say "have no problem with them having to work for OEC." That's a kind humanitarian position, which I can relate to. Once they signed onto OEC's ship, yes, they should have been able to earn an honest wage. Yet, I have such a fundamental issue w/ OEC's overall strategy and its effect on the profession that I do have a problem w/ anyone who works for such a system. I will respect the person as an individual (and value his/her right to honest work and pay), but will never see eye to eye w/ his/her decision to associate w/ OEC.

This thread, after all, is about "OEC problems." I will continue to see a problem w/ OEC and those who work for them.
 
LOL...these guys are crazy. The buy out for the one guy is "upwards of 75K" OMG! And hes sitting on 60K in debt from undergrad and dental school. boohoo. I feel so bad for the guy. yeah right.

OEC folding is a favor. This is the best thing that could have ever happened to them. Pay the money and run. My God

Seriously, $75K and they are out of OEC's hands for good? Some of our colleagues at other non-OEC ortho residencies probably borrow that amount (tuition + living) just for 1 year of attending their programs.

"Hello, American Express? I'd like to request a credit increase to $75K."
 
Seriously, $75K and they are out of OEC's hands for good? Some of our colleagues at other non-OEC ortho residencies probably borrow that amount (tuition + living) just for 1 year of attending their programs.

"Hello, American Express? I'd like to request a credit increase to $75K."

The newspaper included a few "sob stories." Yet, most of these guys are making off like bandits. Many of these poor, unfortunate OEC residents would not even be in ortho if Lazzarra hadn't opened up these schools. Now, they're getting out w/ no strings attached. I know a few of these guys and they're happy as can be (to be getting out). They're overjoyed to pay the $ if it means jumping ship.
 
Let's say the paper didn't choose the sharpest tools in the shed. The guy with the 60K of dental school debt is from a wealthy family, and his wife although pregnant is a dentist. They will be ok. The other guy, who bought the 500K house may not be so good. Lazzara screwed everybody by waiting until the last minute to tell people he couldn't pay them. All these residents moved to their respective locations and made purchases based on their contracts. If Lazzara had told them even a week or two earlier they could have made other decisions. Also OEC hired a lot of staff to work in these offices, and work at the corporate level that were also laid off last minute. These people probably got screwed the most.
Lazzara has given these guys the option of paying him $120-200K (he changes the number daily), or buying existing offices. This is a complete 180 from expecting to receive a paycheck, to having to come out of your pocket 6 figures, especially at the last minute. Inevitably, Lazzara is going to have to eat this cost. Unfortunately, I don't think he is going away, he still has connections to JU.
 
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/101306/bus_5568711.shtml

Now they are suing the residents. These guys are sh*tty.

Firm, can you tell us if these guys are the first class to graduate from Jacksonville & experience all this, or was there a class ahead of them that was placed into OEC offices without too much trouble? I can't remember when OEC started it's first class.

Why do they keep putting this guy's story in the papers? I'm sure he's not in an easy position, but every time I read it I keep thinkg "wtf?" Brentwood, TN is like the most expensive suburb of Nashville to buy a home. I would bet he could still get a real nice home in another suburb for half the cost. That would give him the 100K needed to buy out the contract and get rid of OEC for good. Am I missing something here? Or is it an unspoken rule that you buy an expensive home the day you graduate from ortho residency because everyone knows "orthos make bank." :rolleyes:
 
I still think Lazzara is a wonderful guy trying to meet an access-to-care issue. His heart has always been in the right place. I hope you realize I'm joking.

What a crock! The guy wants to make serious cash! I'm glad I avoided OEC like the plague a few years ago.
 
I know i'm just a lowly OMFS resident. But from what i understand is this:

These residents in the paper tried to back door the ortho profession by selling their souls.

The buyer of these souls is a money grubbing bastard who wants to make all the moral orthodontists' profits by exploiting new graduates and undercutting markets with strip mall ortho clinics.

Those two parties involved are sucking wind right now.

Seems like justice served to all the honest Ortho residents who had to earn their spots.

Right?
 
I still think Lazzara is a wonderful guy trying to meet an access-to-care issue. His heart has always been in the right place. I hope you realize I'm joking.

Oh **** you had me there for a minute!
 
I know i'm just a lowly OMFS resident. But from what i understand is this:

These residents in the paper tried to back door the ortho profession by selling their souls.

The buyer of these souls is a money grubbing bastard who wants to make all the moral orthodontists' profits by exploiting new graduates and undercutting markets with strip mall ortho clinics.

Those two parties involved are sucking wind right now.

Seems like justice served to all the honest Ortho residents who had to earn their spots.

Right?


It is kindof a shame. Shows how money hungry and corrupt dentistry and, in particular, orthodontics seems to be right now. There are a lot of folks out there that really only care about the buck, not the patient. Good stuff from both sides of the equation here. I hope they get mungled up in a terrible lawsuit that keeps them all sucking rear.:mad:
 
There are a couple of people in this group who tried to back door ortho, but most of them could have gotten into other programs. Either they didn't apply to enough programs, or there was an issue of staying close to home due to family. Most of the people getting sued were top 10 applicants.
I think that guy who bought the big house is trying to sell it, but due to the housing market, it's not easy. A friend of mine told me that his wife put pressure on him to buy it. It's a financial lesson for all of us. Lazzara and this guy both spent more than they could afford, based on money they thought they would get in the future. I think this is the second class to graduate, I'm not to sure what happened to the first class.
 
There are a couple of people in this group who tried to back door ortho, but most of them could have gotten into other programs. Either they didn't apply to enough programs, or there was an issue of staying close to home due to family. Most of the people getting sued were top 10 applicants.
I think that guy who bought the big house is trying to sell it, but due to the housing market, it's not easy. A friend of mine told me that his wife put pressure on him to buy it. It's a financial lesson for all of us. Lazzara and this guy both spent more than they could afford, based on money they thought they would get in the future. I think this is the second class to graduate, I'm not to sure what happened to the first class.

i disagree with you. i won't name names but i will always consider the 3 oec programs as back door. i don't feel bad for anyone involved in this mess from the universities, lazzara or the residents.
still don't understand how ada and aao let this even happen in the first place.
 
I know i'm just a lowly OMFS resident. But from what i understand is this:

These residents in the paper tried to back door the ortho profession by selling their souls.

The buyer of these souls is a money grubbing bastard who wants to make all the moral orthodontists' profits by exploiting new graduates and undercutting markets with strip mall ortho clinics.

Those two parties involved are sucking wind right now.

Seems like justice served to all the honest Ortho residents who had to earn their spots.

Right?

You hit it right on, north2south.
 
this is absolutely correct north2southOMFS. also, to the poster who said OEC residents who sold out the profession had similar stats and could have gotten into traditional programs....not so much - and if so that is by far the minority. to the poster who called out the orthodontic profession for being corrupt and greedy.....the orthodontic community were the only ones who fought this from the beginning. it was forced onto them by some non orthodontists at the ADA who lacked foresight and integrity to the profession as a whole who let this slide. this was much to the dismay of the AAO, ABO and most every ortho department and orthodontist out there besides the sell out residents, lazarra and the orthodontists he paid off to "teach." read threads from this board from the past few years regarding OEC. you will find many threads from future general dentists and other future specialists granting carte blanche to lazarra and OEC. interesting how some posters have changed their tune. lgnorant to say this embarassment to the profession was a result of the orthodontic community's greed.



I know i'm just a lowly OMFS resident. But from what i understand is this:

These residents in the paper tried to back door the ortho profession by selling their souls.

The buyer of these souls is a money grubbing bastard who wants to make all the moral orthodontists' profits by exploiting new graduates and undercutting markets with strip mall ortho clinics.

Those two parties involved are sucking wind right now.

Seems like justice served to all the honest Ortho residents who had to earn their spots.

Right?
 
this is absolutely correct north2southOMFS. also, to the poster who said OEC residents who sold out the profession had similar stats and could have gotten into traditional programs....not so much - and if so that is by far the minority. to the poster who called out the orthodontic profession for being corrupt and greedy.....the orthodontic community were the only ones who fought this from the beginning. it was forced onto them by some non orthodontists at the ADA who lacked forsight and integrity to the profession as a whole who let this slide. this was much to the dismay of the AAO, ABO and most every ortho department and orthodontist out there besides the sell out residents, lazarra and the orthodontists he paid off to "teach." read threads from this board from the past few years regarding OEC. you will find many threads from future general dentists and other future specialists granting carte blanche to lazarra and OEC. interesting how some posters have changed their tune. lgnorant to say this embarassment to the profession was a result of the orthodontic community's greed.



Although some may have been trying to back door it, I went to dental school with at least three people who went to school at these programs. The people that I went to school with were all top 10 graduates. Granted, maybe they were lower half in the top ten(7,8,9,10). They all would have been orthodontists eventually. They need to take away Lazzara's license to practice.
 
so the shining stars of OEC are 7,8,9, and 10. This is not even top 10% at most schools. This is not mentioning those who were around 50th percentile of whom I personally know 2. On a whole - no they would not have been orthodontists eventually. Not unless they went back to dental school and finished with a class rank that was on par with the other applicants who got in the right way.



Although some may have been trying to back door it, I went to dental school with at least three people who went to school at these programs. The people that I went to school with were all top 10 graduates. Granted, maybe they were lower half in the top ten(7,8,9,10). They all would have been orthodontists eventually. They need to take away Lazzara's license to practice.
 
I love to read these posts...The anger and animosity generates priceless banter among you so called "deserved ones". Quit fooling yourselves that the OEC residents are getting what they deserve...every last one of them is Soooo thankful for OEC and the opportunity that they gave them, and getting out of the contracts is just icing on the cake. Who cares if they would not have been given the opportunity without OEC? Quit being so jealous and get over it.
 
I love to read these posts...The anger and animosity generates priceless banter among you so called "deserved ones". Quit fooling yourselves that the OEC residents are getting what they deserve...every last one of them is Soooo thankful for OEC and the opportunity that they gave them, and getting out of the contracts is just icing on the cake. Who cares if they would not have been given the opportunity without OEC? Quit being so jealous and get over it.

jealous? ummm...not. wouldn't wanna be in their position at all. i agree getting out of the 7yr, 5.5 day/week, minimum billing requirement contract is great for them. high emotions are because of things like indentured servitude, private companies involved in education potentially expanding to other specialties in the profession, walmart dentistry, etc.
 
so the shining stars of OEC are 7,8,9, and 10. This is not even top 10% at most schools. This is not mentioning those who were around 50th percentile of whom I personally know 2. On a whole - no they would not have been orthodontists eventually. Not unless they went back to dental school and finished with a class rank that was on par with the other applicants who got in the right way.

I personally know people from dental school and undergrad who finished #4, #7(me), #9, and #10 in their classes and went to OEC schools but did not take the OEC scholarship. To have someone who knows so little about OEC, their affiliation with the school, or these individuals, question the validity of them being orthodontists really gets under my skin. I know a few people who took scholarships from OEC that had little chance of becoming orthodontists, but this is a small group. The remainder of the classes at JU (the people who weren't top 10 or bottom 20) had extensive careers in general dentisty or were already specialists.
Since you know so much about the bottom 20%, let me tell you a story about someone in the top 10%. Me. I ranked 7 or 8th in my class(depending on the day :scared: ) in a graduating class of 82. My calculator tells me that's top 10, but I may be wrong. :D I got a 92 on my part I. I applied to 19 schools. I got 6 interviews. Of the schools that I received interviews from, I took 3. Columbia, Case Western, and Jacksonville. (I should have probably posted this in the interview section.) Columbia was changing from a two year program to a three year program. They want me to help in teaching gross anatomy to the first year dental students. (I tutored gross in dental school for three years, and got paid very handsomely for it.) My gut feeling says I probably would have gotten in there due to the fact that they really needed someone to help with gross, and one of the ortho professors was the gross professor. However, the three year program, and the cost of living in New York scared me away. Case is also a three year program, and since I didn't know anybody near Cleveland, this didn't seem like such a good option either. My third interview was Jacksonville. A two year program, close to home, with new facilities. That year they didn't participate in the Match, and I had to make a decision before the Match date. The cost of tuition was high, but the cost of living was low. I finished in two years, and am now making the big bucks while my friends at other programs have a few months to go. I don't like to discuss myself on the internet too much becuase I don't trust it. However, I felt the need to share my story, to dispell the myth that everyone who goes to an OEC school is a bottom feeder. There are some bottom feeders, they probably equal the number of top 10's. Most of the people, atleast at JU, have extensive general dentistry or specialty careers to augment there dental school resume's. Now I'm not going to get into the argument of whether someone who was #7 in their class is more worthy of being an orthodontist than someone who was #3 in their class. That difference is only a couple of questions in 1st year Biochemistry. :sleep:
 
Here are some articles regarding the OEC battle in Jacksonville... I'm not sure if this is going on elsewhere, but, if the info in these articles is true, I can say for certain (like S Files) I am NOT jealous of these OEC situations at all...


http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092406/bus_4927360.shtml

http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/101306/bus_5568711.shtml

WalMart Ortho is bad for nearly everyone except those directly involved. OEC's demise is a great thing for orthodntics, but I have a feeling these three schools will continue to accept an excessively large number of residents in the future (their infrastructure can support it, and they will pay for it)... in a way, the damage has been done.

I would hate to be slapped with one of these lawsuits as I exit residency and look for a job.... whew!
 
I personally know people from dental school and undergrad who finished #4, #7(me), #9, and #10 in their classes and went to OEC schools but did not take the OEC scholarship. To have someone who knows so little about OEC, their affiliation with the school, or these individuals, question the validity of them being orthodontists really gets under my skin.

You haven't provided a source for your 60% ortho legacy comment. I'd also like to say to all future dental school, residency and job applicants, do yourself a favor and attend EVERY SINGLE interview you get. I thought that was common knowledge but apparently not so. Firm, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to deal with the back door stigma, and other negative attitudes towards OEC and Jax, Co, UNLV (even if they're not OEC currently) for quite some time. The reasons are well documented here on SDN, and other literature (AAO, etc). I practiced dentistry in the real world for 2+ years and believe me, I and many of my GP colleagues never judged based on school. As a generally rule I stay away from high turnover practices and chains. I practiced in a semi-rural area so sometimes patients, due to waiting lists at my usual referals, and due to location, would infrequently go to the above mentioned specialty practices. But I'll tell you this, we did NOT ever refer to Imagine Ortho. I politely advised patients against Imagine. And I'm glad I did. That place was a mill in every sense of the word. Firm I think you're taking the OEC comments too personally and in the process changing the direction of this discussion. I'm not overly concerned whether you were #4,5,9, etc. This thread is about OEC PROBLEMS.
 
You haven't provided a source for your 60% ortho legacy comment. I'd also like to say to all future dental school, residency and job applicants, do yourself a favor and attend EVERY SINGLE interview you get. I thought that was common knowledge but apparently not so. Firm, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to deal with the back door stigma, and other negative attitudes towards OEC and Jax, Co, UNLV (even if they're not OEC currently) for quite some time. The reasons are well documented here on SDN, and other literature (AAO, etc). I practiced dentistry in the real world for 2+ years and believe me, I and many of my GP colleagues never judged based on school. As a generally rule I stay away from high turnover practices and chains. I practiced in a semi-rural area so sometimes patients, due to waiting lists at my usual referals, and due to location, would infrequently go to the above mentioned specialty practices. But I'll tell you this, we did NOT ever refer to Imagine Ortho. I politely advised patients against Imagine. And I'm glad I did. That place was a mill in every sense of the word. Firm I think you're taking the OEC comments too personally and in the process changing the direction of this discussion. I'm not overly concerned whether you were #4,5,9, etc. This thread is about OEC PROBLEMS.

The AAO keeps a record of Orthodontists, and their family members. It's easy to find out if an orthodontist has/had a relative orthodontist. I didn't attend every interview, because I have to make a decision before I could. "One in the hand is worth two in the bush." Personally, I'm not concerned with the back door stigma. I know I can treat cases as good or better than anyone in America, and my number one concern is my patient. What irritates me is when people make character judgements about others they don't really know. The same guy that antidentite went to school with who was in the bottom 50% did a 3 year mission, teaches sunday school, and mentors troubled teens before they go to school. I'm not concerned about his character. I just shared my story since we took this topic from the Ortho interview 2006 post to here.
 
I commend many of my "brethren" who have recently posted relative to the OEC problem. It was a problem, is a problem, and will continue to be a problem for orthodontics. OEC scholarship students, non-OEC (non-scholarship) students at OEC institutions, and now traditional applicants considering residency at former OEC-operated/guided schools must consider--at some level at least--that OEC is a problem.

I understand your "one in the hand" situation, Firm. Most of us, however, were not willing to get an OEC stamp on the hand. It remains forever. We could not align ourselves w/ OEC. Non-scholarship is better than scholarship status, I'll agree. But, you will still face the stigma, like it or not.

It's not completely fair in some ways. But if OEC had been better managed and suceeded, OEC grads--especially your "scholarship" OEC "brethren"-- would be laughing at us. In fact, several of those clowns were taunting us a year or so ago about the future trends of ortho and OEC's place at the forefront. Instead, now we're doing the preaching about the true path. I've admitted many times, the path is fraught w/ a lot of bull. But, over the long haul one (adequately qualified) can get in if he/she is determined. That applies to surg, endo, and others whose admission is at least in part tied to merit (not Pros).

Your friend is probably a wonderful guy. Most guys in dental school are. Yet, the numbers you share (top 10 or bottom 10) are only generally indicative of the types of folks are willing to align themselves w/ OEC's beginnings and now its past. Most people w/ lots of options choose the obvious--not OEC. The decision to join OEC and operate ortho mills for Lazarra--not his ability to teach Sunday School--is what most of us are ranting about. The willingness to make such a decision results from character, personal judgement, decision making, values, and lots of other things.
 
Geezer99,

I'd never be jealous of these guys. I know they scored a deal they didn't expect. They're fortunate. They were about to be turned over to their taskmasters, and they were provided freedom. Sounds too good to be true. Yet, no reason to be jealous. I didn't want to associate w/ OEC. Many of us have made that position clear.
 
If there truly is no animosity, then why would there be an "OEC stigma" attached to graduates of these programs? They are adequately trained, have passed the ABO boards, and are generally nice people. ANY "stigma" or looking down upon is a form of jealousy. If you are upset that someone else got something you feel they didn't deserve, then you are jealous!
 
nice guess, but not the guy i went to school with. just added another to the list of oec orthodontists in the bottom 50% of the class though. their class rank and the fact they teach sunday school has nothing to do with why many do not hold them to the highest regard. it has to do with them putting their personal goals ahead of the profession they wanted to be part of. that is a professional character flaw in my book. i think they were enablers to a rotten system. the guy you describe sounds like a great person though, but i will never agree with HOW he became an orthodontist. i will always question and remain skeptical of the decision to sign on with an OEC program.

also, although myself and others on here may be passionate about this subject and disagree with you 100% - this is a disagreement about our profession and professional lives. being on either side of the fence does not make you a good or bad person - right or wrong on this matter perhaps - but not a good or bad person. i don't know why that is getting brought into it.



What irritates me is when people make character judgements about others they don't really know. The same guy that antidentite went to school with who was in the bottom 50% did a 3 year mission, teaches sunday school, and mentors troubled teens before they go to school. I'm not concerned about his character. I just shared my story since we took this topic from the Ortho interview 2006 post to here.
 
If there truly is no animosity, then why would there be an "OEC stigma" attached to graduates of these programs? They are adequately trained, have passed the ABO boards, and are generally nice people. ANY "stigma" or looking down upon is a form of jealousy. If you are upset that someone else got something you feel they didn't deserve, then you are jealous!

thanks for contributing nothing to the dialogue genius!

i don't even know why i am wasting time replying to that worthless post from someone who really grasps the issue, but here it goes.

who is saying there is no hard feelings? not me. many people have hard feelings. jealous? would i want to be an OEC grad? take a look at this board, no way i would want people saying these things about me!

no one "deserves" to be an orthodontist. all of those who got in are lucky above their impressive resumes. it has nothing to do with them getting something they didn't deserve - although that argument has been made. it has to do with them putting their goals ahead of the profession by buying into and supporting a rotten for profit company that if it would have followed its business plan would have made a mockery out of the profession while padding the pocket books of investors. note what is important in a for profit company.....profit. not students, not patients not the profession. the almighty dollar at all costs.
 
damn...i missed this gem before.

Quit fooling yourselves that the OEC residents are getting what they deserve...every last one of them is Soooo thankful for OEC and the opportunity that they gave them, and getting out of the contracts is just icing on the cake.

you sir are impressive. oooohh you got us there! great point. i think that is realized. who is disputing that or even discussing it. i feel like you are responding to messages in this thread that are not visible to anyone else.

Who cares if they would not have been given the opportunity without OEC? Quit being so jealous and get over it.

WTF? is this the issue being discussed. you grasp this situation about as well as the administrative gurus at UNLV, Colorado, and Jacksonville. Look how it turned out for them.


And lets not forget the perspective this guy brought to the board with one of his previous posts:

Geezer99
"Which brings me to my next question...how the hell do I sign up with OEC? If an ortho practice being run by a bitter a-hole grosses 2M/year (I'm assuming his overhead is about 50%...I did stay up late doing my research), and OEC takes 60% of your profit, then that still leaves 400K/year. Please, take away any autonomy that I have now (basically none) and give me 4 times what I make. Sure doesn't sound bad to me. Even if I sit around my unproductive office watching Roseanne reruns on the flatscreens, I will still make more than I make now."

Ha. Speaking of jealousy! this guy is well documented for being "jealous" of the perceived money orthodontists make. His jealousy clouds his perception of how and why OEC was bad and the reason many on here are/were opposed to it.
 
If there truly is no animosity, then why would there be an "OEC stigma" attached to graduates of these programs? They are adequately trained, have passed the ABO boards, and are generally nice people. ANY "stigma" or looking down upon is a form of jealousy. If you are upset that someone else got something you feel they didn't deserve, then you are jealous!

Geezer99,

Your nonsense posts remind me of some posts some surgery residents threw out a few weeks back. For their *****ic behavior I called them putzes. You should look up the word, as well. P-u-t-z. Putz.

And while you're looking up putz, look up stigma and jealousy. Stigma has nothing to do w/ jealousy.

Main Entry: stig·ma
Pronunciation: 'stig-m&
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural stig·ma·ta /stig-'mä-t&, 'stig-m&-t& /; or stig·mas
Etymology: Latin stigmat-, stigma mark, brand, from Greek, from stizein to tattoo -- more at STICK
1 a archaic : a scar left by a hot iron : BRAND b : a mark of shame or discredit : STAIN <bore the stigma of cowardice> c : an identifying mark or characteristic; specifically : a specific diagnostic sign of a disease


Main Entry: jeal&#183;ou&#183;sy
Pronunciation: 'je-l&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
1 : a jealous disposition, attitude, or feeling
2 : zealous vigilance


I believe there is some form of animosity. Further, there is and likely will always remain some type of stigma. However, jealousy is a different matter. I don't want what they have--an OEC education. I calculated as I applied to ortho that people would feel animosity and place a stigma on the grads of those illustrious three programs. I didn't want animosity or a stigma directed toward me. I am not jealous to have what they have now have (animosity and stigma w/ high affinity). Technology or no technology, I don't want the OEC crest (especially during the last few years) stamped on my forehead.

They were given a gift by a poorly managed company--entrance into and exit from an ortho program that most of them otherwise wouldn't have gotten. They are lucky in that respect. Many similarly less-qualified persons were not admitted into those wonderfully sophisticated programs. They were less lucky.

Yet, do you think I'm envious of the many legal troubles and personal afflictions many are passing through? I'm happy w/ my route.
 
ANY "stigma" or looking down upon is a form of jealousy. QUOTE]

Geeze Dog,

Where do you come up with this stuff? I had to submit another post to challenge this sweet sentence. We look down on their route into ortho because of its original ties to OEC. We are not jealous of their route into or out of ortho. We did not choose that same route and wish nobody else would.

You need to separate the stigma from the jealousy. "Back doors"--even w/ an unexpected easy exit--will always be stimatized. Get used to it.

I regret that anyone even "went OEC" and gave that lousy corporation life for a few years. No jealousy, Geeze. Just old-fashioned disgust (marked aversion aroused by something highly distasteful) for choices you sympathize with.
 
"note what is important in a for profit company.....profit. not students, not patients not the profession. the almighty dollar at all costs." Antidentite.


Antidentite,
I hope that you practice entirely pro-bono. Therefore you are not corrupted by the almighty dollar. As you know even small businesses (private practices) are for profit companies.
 
Geezer99,

Your nonsense posts remind me of some posts some surgery residents threw out a few weeks back. For their *****ic behavior I called them putzes. You should look up the word, as well. P-u-t-z. Putz.

And while you're looking up putz, look up stigma and jealousy. Stigma has nothing to do w/ jealousy.

Main Entry: stig·ma
Pronunciation: 'stig-m&
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural stig·ma·ta /stig-'mä-t&, 'stig-m&-t& /; or stig·mas
Etymology: Latin stigmat-, stigma mark, brand, from Greek, from stizein to tattoo -- more at STICK
1 a archaic : a scar left by a hot iron : BRAND b : a mark of shame or discredit : STAIN <bore the stigma of cowardice> c : an identifying mark or characteristic; specifically : a specific diagnostic sign of a disease


Main Entry: jeal·ou·sy
Pronunciation: 'je-l&-sE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -sies
1 : a jealous disposition, attitude, or feeling
2 : zealous vigilance


I believe there is some form of animosity. Further, there is and likely will always remain some type of stigma. However, jealousy is a different matter. I don't want what they have--an OEC education. I calculated as I applied to ortho that people would feel animosity and place a stigma on the grads of those illustrious three programs. I didn't want animosity or a stigma directed toward me. I am not jealous to have what they have now have (animosity and stigma w/ high affinity). Technology or no technology, I don't want the OEC crest (especially during the last few years) stamped on my forehead.

They were given a gift by a poorly managed company--entrance into and exit from an ortho program that most of them otherwise wouldn't have gotten. They are lucky in that respect. Many similarly less-qualified persons were not admitted into those wonderfully sophisticated programs. They were less lucky.

Yet, do you think I'm envious of the many legal troubles and personal afflictions many are passing through? I'm happy w/ my route.


Did I sell out the profession by taking an OEC scholarship? Of course I did. But do I care what people on this forum are saying about me? Absolutely not. What I do care about is being the best orthodontist I can be, and without OEC, I would have never had the opportunity to do so. I am very thankful to be able to do what I want to do, and no amount of trashtalking behind my back is going to make me love this profession any less.

The stigma only exists among other orthodontists and not very many at that. I think I am getting a top-notch education, and unless you've been to one of these schools, you can't judge otherwise.

Personally, I don't have any legal troubles or personal afflictions, and I am happy with my route. I'm glad that OEC no longer exists, but am thankful it did for a few years.
 
nice try. unfortunately/fortunately i will work in academics and will be in school past my residency. having said that the money generated in orthodontics is fixed......the question is who takes it home.

my opinion - orthodontists - they worked their ass off for it.

your opinion ? - slime ball MBA's and investors who profit off the orthodontists hard work as they pimp him, his patients, and the profession.

pro bono is great. i have no grounds to debate that though. your type of thinking is what OEC was banking on. you are missing the big picture. you would be marked as a sucker by the OEC investment backers.

The point is - if there is one place "for profit" companies should not play a role it is in the role of training health professionals. OEC was not invented for any other purpose than to make money. priority #1 - by skimming off the top of orthodontists hard work as they made the profession a bunch of indentured servants. private practicing small business orthodontists and dentists have ethical standards that i think most would agree far surpass the ethics displayed by corporate america and the investing world.


Antidentite,
I hope that you practice entirely pro-bono. Therefore you are not corrupted by the almighty dollar. As you know even small businesses (private practices) are for profit companies.
 
well that was a breath of fresh air. i appreciate your honesty and not hiding behind weak arguments like others. fair enough. i see your position - just can't fathom "selling out" a profession "you love" to get in and then hope to be a respected member of it for your professional career.

Did I sell out the profession by taking an OEC scholarship? Of course I did.
 
Don't invest much do you?
Well, apparently not, as that would be profitting off the hard work of others, and that is not your style. Therefore, you'd better save all your pennies, because you will need them one day.
 
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