Columbia vs. UT Southwestern- help!!!

[crburenthusiasm]

I have a very good dilemma of choosing between UT-Southwestern and Columbia by May 15th. I was hoping some people out there could help me...

Pros/Cons--

Southwestern-
Family lives here. Parents would pay the tuition, would get out debt-free. Close to my dog?

Columbia-
New York. Boyfriend lives there. At least $120,000 guaranteed debt if I go. Smaller class size, more interesting extracurriculars (does it matter? will i have time?)

Any advice would be MUCH appreciated!

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[RoadRunner17]

I have a very good dilemma of choosing between UT-Southwestern and Columbia by May 15th. I was hoping some people out there could help me...

Pros/Cons--

Southwestern-
Family lives here. Parents would pay the tuition, would get out debt-free. Close to my dog?

Columbia-
New York. Boyfriend lives there. At least $120,000 guaranteed debt if I go. Smaller class size, more interesting extracurriculars (does it matter? will i have time?)

Any advice would be MUCH appreciated!

Why does everyone have a SO in New York??

I want to say go with UTSW. You might end up going to NYC and breaking up with your boyfriend.. don't take on that much debt unless there's a long-term commitment there. But that's really up to you.. graduating without debt is no joke!

 

[DrJD]

Southwestern is an amazing school, and with no debt!! Ridiculously great opportunity!

Southwestern...

 

[crburenthusiasm]

Ok, there are some Southwestern votes there. Anyone have any compelling thoughts about Columbia? This almost 50-50 poll result isn't helping.

 

[sevenmints]

please go to UT so i can go to columbia. K thx bai!

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

Go where you will be the most happy. Don't worry about debt. The only thing to consider is name recognition in the future. Columbia sounds a hell of a lot better than UTSW.

PS: I'm from Texas so I know how it works. Congrats on the acceptances.

 

[GonnaHappen]

Go where you will be the most happy. Don't worry about debt. The only thing to consider is name recognition in the future. Columbia sounds a hell of a lot better than UTSW.

PS: I'm from Texas so I know how it works. Congrats on the acceptances.

This is silly.

I vote UTSW.

 

[guestdoc]

There's no doubt that Columbia will sound better. Out of Texas and out of medicine, Columbia will sound way better (UT-where? vs. Columbia. Yeah I've heard of it. Ivy league.).

That's a tough choice to make, though, as both are great schools. Location and money should be the deciding factors. NY (cool, and SO, but make sure it's a sure thing before you go with that) vs family. Texas vs NY, and the money involved.

Good luck!

 

[WaterBird]

Well, what do you want to do?

If you are interested in academic medicine or surgery...Columbia
If you are interested in primary care...go with UTSW and no debt

Both great schools, neither will close any doors, but if you're pretty set on one of the above paths I think the corresponding school will be better. For most other careers I would go whatever combo of gut/personal life/finances makes sense to you.

 

[RoadRunner17]

Well, what do you want to do?

If you are interested in academic medicine or surgery...Columbia
If you are interested in primary care...go with UTSW and no debt

Both great schools, neither will close any doors, but if you're pretty set on one of the above paths I think the corresponding school will be better. For most other careers I would go whatever combo of gut/personal life/finances makes sense to you.

WTF? This does not compute. UTSW is a strong academic medical center in its own right. The OP will find it a good springboard for academic medicine if that's what he/she wants to do.

 

[guestdoc]

Well, what do you want to do?

If you are interested in academic medicine or surgery...Columbia
If you are interested in primary care...go with UTSW and no debt

Both great schools, neither will close any doors, but if you're pretty set on one of the above paths I think the corresponding school will be better. For most other careers I would go whatever combo of gut/personal life/finances makes sense to you.

This is what I would have liked to say. Pretty clear-cut and simplified, but a good take imo.

 

[inspiredbytruth]

Having the opportunity to go to school and graduate debt free is all I'd need to hear personally but if that's not enough to sway you go to the school with the better looking people lol

 

[GoSpursGo]

Well, what do you want to do?

If you are interested in academic medicine or surgery...Columbia
If you are interested in primary care...go with UTSW and no debt

Both great schools, neither will close any doors, but if you're pretty set on one of the above paths I think the corresponding school will be better. For most other careers I would go whatever combo of gut/personal life/finances makes sense to you.

WTF? UTSW not in any way a primary care school; you'll hear about their three (four?) Nobel Laureates doing research there ad nauseum while interviewing.

 

[crburenthusiasm]

Thank you all so much for posting these helpful comments! I really appreciate it.

I am most interested in doing ObGyn, Neuro, or Derm. Recent Rankings for these would be, respectively: Columbia- 13, 2, 6; SW- 7, 27, 11.

I'm also interested in public health, which would swing to Columbia's favor with their fantastic MPH program. I would rather practice than devote time to research, but would love to teach-- however, this would be in a teaching hospital, and not in 'academia', unless I'm misunderstanding the term.

Finally, are match lists a good way to evaluate a school? If so, does anyone have any insight into whether one school's match list is better?

I accidentally attached BU's match list (I think). Does anyone know how to get UTSW's match list?

Columbia's 2009 Match List
Anesthesiology NYP-Columbia
Anesthesiology NYP-Columbia
Anesthesiology NYP-Columbia
Anesthesiology NYP-Columbia
Anesthesiology/Medicine-Prelim NYP-Columbia/NY Hosp Med Ctr Queens
Anesthesiology/Medicine-Prelim NYP-Columbia/Northwestern

Dermatology NYU/Mt Sinai-NY
Dermatology/Med-Prelim Rhode Island Hosp-Brown/Mt Sinai Hosp-NY
Dermatology/Med-Prelim Texas A&M Scott & White

Emergency Medicine UCSF
Emergency Medicine Brigham & Womens
Emergency Medicine Harbor-UCLA Med Ctr
Emergency Medicine Mt Sinai-NY
Emergency Medicine NYP Hosp-Columbia & Cornell
Emergency Medicine U Illinois COM-Chicago

Family Medicine Family Medicine Res of Idaho
Family Medicine Swedish Medical Center-WA

General Surgery BI Deaconess Med Ctr-MA
General Surgery NY Methodist Hospital
General Surgery NYP-Columbia
General Surgery NYP-Columbia
General Surgery NYP-Columbia
General Surgery NYP-Cornell
General Surgery NYP-Cornell
General Surgery St Josephs Hospital-AZ
General Surgery UMDNJ-R W Johnson-Piscataway
General Surgery Yale

Internal Medicine BI Deaconess Med Ctr-MA
Internal Medicine Boston Univ Med Ctr
Internal Medicine Hosp of the Univ of PA
Internal Medicine Mass Gen
Internal Medicine Mass Gen
Internal Medicine Mass Gen
Internal Medicine Mt Sinai-NY
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYP-Columbia
Internal Medicine NYU
Internal Medicine Stanford
Internal Medicine U Rochester-Strong Mem
Internal Medicine U Washington
Internal Medicine U Wisconsin Hospital and Clinics
Internal Medicine UCSD
Internal Medicine UCSF
Internal Medicine UCSF
Internal Medicine UCSF
Internal Medicine Univ of Chicago Med Ctr
Internal Medicine Yale

Medicine-Pediatrics Yale

Medicine-Prelim Harbor-UCLA Med Ctr
Medicine-Prelim North Shore-LIJ Health Sys
Medicine-Prelim Roger Williams Med Ctr-RI

Medicine-Primary Einstein/Montefiore
Medicine-Primary Hosp of the Univ of PA
Medicine-Primary Yale

Neurological Surgery Hosp of the Univ of PA
Neurological Surgery NYP-Columbia
Neurological Surgery NYP-Columbia
Neurological Surgery UCLA Medical Center
Neurological Surgery University of Virginia

Neurology Hosp of the Univ of PA/Baylor
Neurology Mass Gen
Neurology/Med-Prelim NYP-Columbia
Neurology/Med-Prelim NYP-Columbia/NYU
Neurology/Med-Prelim NYP-Columbia/St Lukes-Roosevelt
Neurology/Med-Prelim NYP-Columbia/St Lukes-Roosevelt
Neurology/Med-Prelim NYP-Cornell

OB/GYN Brigham & Womens
OB/GYN Brown U/Womens & Infants Hosp of RI
OB/GYN Mtn Area Health Ed Ctr-NC
OB/GYN NYP-Columbia
OB/GYN NYP-Columbia
OB/GYN NYU
OB/GYN Tufts

Ophthalmology/Medicine-Prelim NYP-Cornell/New York Downtown Hosp
Ophthalmology/Medicine-Prelim Schie Eye Institute-UPenn/Flushing Hospital
Ophthalmology/Transitional Tufts/Newton-Wellesley
Ophthalmology/Transitional University of Illinois/Maimonides Med Ctr
Ophthalmology/Transitional USC/St Mary Med Ctr

Orthopaedic Surgery Harvard Combined-Mass Gen
Orthopaedic Surgery Harvard Combined-Mass Gen
Orthopaedic Surgery Hosp For Special Surg-NY
Orthopaedic Surgery NYP-Columbia
Orthopaedic Surgery NYP-Columbia
Orthopaedic Surgery NYP-Columbia
Orthopaedic Surgery Yale-New Haven

Otolaryngology Mass Eye and Ear

Pathology NYP-Columbia
Pathology NYP-Columbia
Pathology NYU
Pathology UCLA Medical Center
Pathology UCSF

Pediatrics Childrens Hosp-Boston MA
Pediatrics Childrens Hosp-Philadelphia PA
Pediatrics Childrens Natl Med Ctr-DC
Pediatrics Einstein/Montefiore
Pediatrics North Shore-LIJ Health Sys
Pediatrics North Shore-LIJ Health Sys
Pediatrics NYP-Columbia
Pediatrics NYP-Columbia
Pediatrics NYP-Columbia
Pediatrics NYP-Columbia
Pediatrics U Washington
Pediatrics U Washington
Pediatrics UCSF
Pediatrics UCSF
Pediatrics-Prelim UCSF

Physical Medicine & Rehab/Medicine-Prelim NYP Hosp-Columbia & Cornell/St Lukes-Roosevelt

Psychiatry Einstein/Montefiore
Psychiatry Mt Sinai
Psychiatry NYP-Columbia
Psychiatry NYP-Columbia
Psychiatry NYP-Cornell
Psychiatry NYP-Cornell
Psychiatry NYP-Cornell
Psychiatry NYU
Psychiatry NYU
Psychiatry NYU
Psychiatry NYU
Psychiatry U Michigan
Psychiatry UCSF
Psychiatry UCSF
Psychiatry UPMC Medical Education Prog-PA
Psychiatry Yale-New Haven

Radiation Oncology/Med Prelim Stanford/CA Pacific

Radiology-Diagnostic/Medicine-Prelim Brigham & Womens/Tufts
Radiology-Diagnostic/Medicine-Prelim NYP-Columbia/NYU
Radiology-Diagnostic/Medicine-Prelim Stanford/MacNeal Mem Hosp-IL
Radiology-Diagnostic/Medicine-Prelim SUNY-Brooklyn/Staten Island U Hosp
Radiology-Diagnostic/Surgery-Prelim UCSF/Cedars-Sinai
Radiology-Diagnostic/Transitional UCSF/Santa Clara Valley
Radiology-Diagnostic/Transitional Westchester Medical Center/Sound Shore Med Ctr

Surgery-Preliminary Beth Isreal Deaconness
Surgery-Preliminary Kaiser Permanente-So CA
Surgery-Preliminary Morristown Memorial
Surgery-Preliminary NYP-Columbia
Surgery-Preliminary NYP-Columbia
Surgery-Preliminary NYP-Columbia

Urology Baylor
Urology/Surg-Prelim Hosp of the Univ of PA
Urology/Surg-Prelim Mt Sinai-NY
Urology/Surg-Prelim NYP-Columbia
Urology/Surgery-Prelim NYP-Cornell


Also----New Southwestern Grading System-- July 2009
The first half of the first year will be Pass/Fail. Students will be provided feedback about performance on examinations so that each student can be aware of how well he/she is mastering the material, but the final grade will be either Pass or Fail. This change will allow students to make the transition into the new environment of medical school more gracefully.
Beginning with the second half of the first year and continuing through the clinical rotations of the third year, students will be graded using a letter grade system (A, B+, B, C, & F). The numeric cutoffs for grades will be publicized at the beginning of each course. Having grades awarded in this manner rather than a “normative” basis (grading curve) should eliminate any perception among students that they are competing with each other for grades. This change should encourage students to focus on the mastery of material and the collegiality essential in the care of patients.
The fourth year will continue to be graded on a Pass/Fail system.

 

[crburenthusiasm]

Found it! Attached.

 

[dbhvt]

P&S student here. 1) yes the extra curricular opportunities matter, and yes you will have time. 2) P/F >>>>>>> A/B/C/D/F.

 

[Danbo1957]

Hmmm... Columbia, $120K debt and the boyfriend versus UTSW, no debt and the dog? Hmmm... we all know where we men would go.

 

[copingmethods]

Thank you all so much for posting these helpful comments! I really appreciate it.

I am most interested in doing ObGyn, Neuro, or Derm. Recent Rankings for these would be, respectively: Columbia- 13, 2, 6; SW- 7, 27, 11.

When you say neuro, do you mean neurology (Neuro) or neurosurgery (NSGY)? If neurosurg., I've heard that Columbia is one of the best at putting people in those residencies, and that their neurosurg. program is one of the strongest in the country.

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

This is silly.

I vote UTSW.

Typical pre-med sentiment. You think you know what you are talking about even before you are in med school. If you don't want the headache of having to be uber competitive with classmates while in medical school just to get interviews to top programs, you will have an easier time doing that by choosing to go to Columbia. Plus, I'm not really sure why everyone is so scared of debt. We all pay it off, you know.

 

[bozz]

UTSW hands down. Why take on 120k of debt? Makes no sense at all.

If you want to be nitpicky about prestige/rankings blah blah ... Columbia is a top 20 school (not top 10). UTSW is a top 25 school. Those few ranking spots is not worth it to pay an extra 120k in tuition. I interviewed at UTSW OOS. Top clinical opportunies and also a leader in academic medicine. You really can't go wrong with UTSW.

 

[249825]

UTSW hands down. Why take on 120k of debt? Makes no sense at all.

If you want to be nitpicky about prestige/rankings blah blah ... Columbia is a top 20 school (not top 10). UTSW is a top 25 school. Those few ranking spots is not worth it to pay an extra 120k in tuition. I interviewed at UTSW OOS. Top clinical opportunies and also a leader in academic medicine. You really can't go wrong with UTSW.

Actually, Columbia is No. 10 and UTSW is No. 20 in this year's US News rankings.

However, I voted for UTSW because OP would be essentially debt free when she gets out of school and that is a BIG plus. Your 120K debt would quite easily go uto 160K with all the interest and other random expenses that incur when you move to a new place.

 

[JLC]

UTSW hands down. Why take on 120k of debt? Makes no sense at all.

If you want to be nitpicky about prestige/rankings blah blah ... Columbia is a top 20 school (not top 10). UTSW is a top 25 school. Those few ranking spots is not worth it to pay an extra 120k in tuition. I interviewed at UTSW OOS. Top clinical opportunies and also a leader in academic medicine. You really can't go wrong with UTSW.

Columbia is traditionally one of the top tier schools...no I'm not a med student there. Just saying if you looked in the history of USNews, Columbia has always been in the top 10 (only recently has it slipped in to 11)

UTSW is a powerhouse in its own right, but its not Columbia

 

[DrJD]

You guys are all ridiculous!

This isn't a comparison of Columbia to Texas Tech... Or Columbia to Drexel... UTSW is one of the best medical schools in the country. Don't be so blinded by rankings that you would pick Columbia because of a measly 10 difference in rankings.

UTSW is an academic powerhouse, in a nice city. Is Dallas NYC? Of course not, but to some that is a plus. Either way to equate UTSW to primary care is absurd, and to say Columbia because it is more prestigious is equally as absurd. Just because you as a pre-med haven't heard of Southwestern that much doesn't mean that those in the field, especially researchers haven't heard of them.

Their rank difference is negligible. So OP, make the choice based on finances, significant others, and location. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE IN CAREER OPPORTUNITIES BETWEEN THESE SCHOOLS. They are virtually identical. Focus on the other important things, good luck making this great decision!

 

[165651]

hey there! future UTSW classmate here (that is, if we both choose here since i am deciding between amcas schools as well, haha). anyways, i just thought i'd post since i go to undergrad right now in new york and totally understand the draw of the city/northeast in general; but i am actually from dallas/the parents live there/etc.

anyways, my two cents (for whatever they're worth) is that i really agree with FemalesCANTDriv to go where you liked the most/felt the most happy! it's such a humanities/liberal arts whole "go with your heart thing" but honestly, if there is a frontrunner there...i think you should go with that as you want to be comfortable/mildy happy during 4 years of pain! haha, oh the irony.

if they are essentially tied in your mind, i would personally weigh in the bf factor if you guys are indeed serious. i know someone on the UTSW 2013 thread posted to go with the parents, but people are at different stages in their life entering medical school, particularly these days, so if this is a long-term thing then it might deserve that weight. obviously cost of living and tuition are huge things, but you will pay it off...but the bf thing, not sure if it would work long-distance (i personally just couldn't make something like that work for 4 years) and if things did dissolve, would that be worth the pros that utsw offers? i'm not sure if that came off right, haha...but good luck with your choice!

they are both excellent schools and i very much agree with DrJD about the excellent career opportunities coming from both places. i was talking to a physician who is director for a competitive surgery residency program who told me how well regarded utsw students are. this is in new york, too, btw! so hope that helps, and maybe i will see you at utsw in the fall

 

[bozz]

Columbia is traditionally one of the top tier schools...no I'm not a med student there. Just saying if you looked in the history of USNews, Columbia has always been in the top 10 (only recently has it slipped in to 11)

UTSW is a powerhouse in its own right, but its not Columbia

True, but UTSW is not a middle or low-tier school. If tuition were almost equal at both schools, ofcourse choose Columbia. We're factoring in money here and figuring out whether 10 ranking spots WITHIN the top 20 is worth 120k of debt.

 

[WaterBird]

WTF? UTSW not in any way a primary care school; you'll hear about their three (four?) Nobel Laureates doing research there ad nauseum while interviewing.

I did not mean to imply that UTSW is a "primary care school". But the amount of debt you have matters more if you are going into primary care from ANY school . Also, rankings matter more to academics than anyone else. Even in that situation, it's marginal, and as I said the first time, both great schools, neither eliminates any options. Dang, finish the paragraph before you start slinging WTFs.

 

[165651]

http://www.southwesternstudents.com/AMSAUnofficialGuidetoUTSW.pdf

just thought i'd post this, a guide i found while snooping through the website today -- it has so much information (slightly overwhelming); i am just on the MS1 part haha. maybe it will be of help if you haven't seen it!

 

[CourageKid]

They are both good schools. Columbia might have a slightly better rank/prestige, but you are going to be trained darn well doing your rotations in Parkland.

I think that the biggest difference is location. I mean, we're talking Dallas versus New York City. Having spent time in both, the only commonalities that come to mind are that they both have a lot of restaurants and shopping. Other than that, you couldn't pick two major cities that are more different than each other. Where would you be more comfortable? There has to be some preference for one city over the other. Where would you prefer to eventually settle? One of the main goals of the public schools in Texas is to train doctors for Texas. That's not to say that you couldn't go wherever you want for residency if you attended UTSW. But a good chunk of your classmates will probably be staying in state. Similarly with Columbia, is the East Coast your thing?

 

[batman1983]

I would take UTSW. Trust me, NYC is overrated. To really enjoy the things that NYC offers, you need $$. Plus, Dallas isnt that bad a city either.

 

[RoadRunner17]

New York City is so expensive that one of my PIs who did her MSTP at NYU, had to take out loans to cover the cost of living expenses. The MSTP stipend wasn't enough for more than sharing a box with a roommate her first year, and she was miserable enough to take out loans. That should tell you something.

 

[GonnaHappen]

Typical pre-med sentiment. You think you know what you are talking about even before you are in med school. If you don't want the headache of having to be uber competitive with classmates while in medical school just to get interviews to top programs, you will have an easier time doing that by choosing to go to Columbia. Plus, I'm not really sure why everyone is so scared of debt. We all pay it off, you know.

Haha, get over yourself.

You don't need to be in medical school to know that not worrying about debt is foolish. And that choosing a school is because it "sounds better" is equally foolish.

Listen to DrJD:

You guys are all ridiculous!

This isn't a comparison of Columbia to Texas Tech... Or Columbia to Drexel... UTSW is one of the best medical schools in the country. Don't be so blinded by rankings that you would pick Columbia because of a measly 10 difference in rankings.

UTSW is an academic powerhouse, in a nice city. Is Dallas NYC? Of course not, but to some that is a plus. Either way to equate UTSW to primary care is absurd, and to say Columbia because it is more prestigious is equally as absurd. Just because you as a pre-med haven't heard of Southwestern that much doesn't mean that those in the field, especially researchers haven't heard of them.

Their rank difference is negligible. So OP, make the choice based on finances, significant others, and location. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT THE DIFFERENCE IN CAREER OPPORTUNITIES BETWEEN THESE SCHOOLS. They are virtually identical. Focus on the other important things, good luck making this great decision!

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

Haha, get over yourself.

You don't need to be in medical school to know that not worrying about debt is foolish. And that choosing a school is because it "sounds better" is equally foolish.

Listen to DrJD:

I think you just proved my point when I said, "You think you know what you are talking about even before you are in med school."

Besides I'm not saying going to the residency of your choice is impossible at UTSW or that getting into the residency of your choice is a piece of cake at Columbia. All I'm saying is that keeping residency and future jobs in mind, the Columbia name will open more doors and give you more opportunities. Plus, >90% of your classmates will be from TX and most will want to remain in TX the rest of their lives. If that is you, I say go with UTSW. It is a great school and will give you top notch training at a reasonable price.

 

[copingmethods]

I think you just proved my point when I said, "You think you know what you are talking about even before you are in med school."

The thing is, is GonnaHappen's statement about going to the cheaper school to lower debt ISN'T the common pre-med sentiment on SDN. The common pre-med sentiment on SDN is "go to the highest ranked school no matter what," and the majority of med students and residents are always shooting them down and saying "go to the school where you'll graduate w/ lower debt," and "you'd be an idiot to go to a higher ranked school that will cost you $100,000 more."

So what you're saying is confusing, because it's the opposite the advice coming from most med students on SDN.

 

[LovelyMD]

Ok I feel the need to comment on NYC. I grew up lower middle class in NYC and I STILL enjoy NYC. Contrary to popular opinion, you actually do not need to be wealthy to enjoy NYC. Also, the financial aid budget that the financial aid office at P&S sets up (~$69,000 for first year students) is definitely enough to cover your living expenses. You should not have to worry about taking out extra loans beyond that to cover rent etc... that is, unless you're trying to live in a fancy area. But most of us here don't do that anyway. NYU is not P&S, and the cost of living around the NYU area (downtown Manhattan) is definitely higher than the cost of living around P&S (uptown).

$120K is a big difference in cost, so basically you'd have to determine for yourself whether you're comfortable taking on that much in loans. Personally I don't think I could go to a school with letter grades, but it's a personal decision really. Either way, you should play around with loan calculators and such to educate yourself on exactly what it will take to pay off different amounts of loans and decide what level of debt you think you can handle.