We're in Wrong Quadrant

[Sushirolls]

Well-Being Parameters and Intention to Leave Current Institution Among Academic Physicians

This cross-sectional study describes the prevalence of burnout, professional fulfillment, and intention to leave among physicians at academic-affiliated health care systems and identifies institutional and individual factors associated with intention to leave.

jamanetwork.com

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[clausewitz2]

This says that academic psychiatry is not a great gig unless you are a researcher or really, truly obsessed with teaching. Also, maybe pick a population to focus on rather than be a literal take all comers generalist.

 

[Sushirolls]

Yeah, there are flaws. Academia population. Timeline around covid, in context of surgeons not operating as much. Survey based.

But worthwhile to at least glance at.

 

[whopper]

The problem I had in being in academia is you work your tail off you usually don't make more money. Add to it, if you're in a research institution that only promotes based on publications, hard and effective work in the inpatient unit, clinic, teaching doesn't add anything to your income.

In this world of people (including you and your children) graduating with crippling debt, the thought of being a physician and not being able to pay for my kids' tuitions was IMHO ridiculous.

Add to it the institutions I worked in IMHO were wasting money hand-over-fist. Made the aspect of working hard and not making more money that much more frustrating when you saw their inefficiency, you knew how to fix it, they wouldn't fix it, nor let you have a handle in fixing it.

As an example, I know of an institution that has several TMS machines that are just sitting there collecting dust. The psychiatrists in the department have no incentive to start a TMS clinic because it will not help their careers at all. It's a waste to the institution, and to the community. If it got in operation it could generate tremendous revenue, but the rules in the institution prevent anyone from wanting to get this thing off the ground into a functioning, profitable, and effective clinic for the community.

People see income in a black and white sense. "But you're not supposed to want money." Ahem, paying off your debt? Making enough money for the institution to be viable? These are things that you must do in the real world not only to survive, but also if an institution is profitable because it's doing what it's supposed to be doing then it is a sign it is a viable institution in and of itself. (Again if they're doing what they're supposed to be doing which is provide good care). Of course money isn't the only barometer, but this "money doesn't matter" attitude in academia and other institutions such as the government is limited and ultimately ignorant virtue-signaling.

As I've mentioned, I do recommend new graduates spend some time in academia, but I left ultimately because the last institution I was in was dysfunctional on several levels. Had I stayed in the prior academic institution I was in I might've never left.

 

[tr]

50% response rate = meaningless for inferences about the population as a whole.

Also why bother to do a study like this when unsatisfying working conditions are an intentional part of the academic medicine business model? They want people to turn over because fresh grads are cheaper. As long as the bottom line is fine, no dean is going to look at this paper and be like yeah, stuff needs to change.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Survey based.

But worthwhile to at least glance at.

I mean there ya go ding ding. Who's most likely to respond to surveys? It's like online reviews. Look at the supplemental materials, this looks like it was obnoxious to fill out. Most of the people who are taking the trouble to do that are the people who are pissed off.

When I got these kinds of emails about studies when I was a fellow, it was auto delete unless it said something about some kind of compensation in there.

 

[clausewitz2]

50% response rate = meaningless for inferences about the population as a whole.

Also why bother to do a study like this when unsatisfying working conditions are an intentional part of the academic medicine business model? They want people to turn over because fresh grads are cheaper. As long as the bottom line is fine, no dean is going to look at this paper and be like yeah, stuff needs to change.

"Man, this meat grinder really tears up this meat. What is going on?"

 

[brazilianpsych]

I mean there ya go ding ding. Who's most likely to respond to surveys? It's like online reviews. Look at the supplemental materials, this looks like it was obnoxious to fill out. Most of the people who are taking the trouble to do that are the people who are pissed off.

When I got these kinds of emails about studies when I was a fellow, it was auto delete unless it said something about some kind of compensation in there.

But that would apply for all specialties, not only psych. I don't feel burnout, but I also don't feel much professional fulfilment either. When you look in the graph, most of the ones with high fulfillment are curing things.

Ps: I don't get bothered by it, but it's not like I finish a day thinking "wow I really massively changed some people's lives today!". I imagine neurosurgeons feel that, although I wouldn't want to be one. Just my 2 cents.

 

[comp1]

I love working with residents and medical students, but in a formal academic institution...no. It's just too much extra work they pile on.

 

[psychemdoc]

But that would apply for all specialties, not only psych. I don't feel burnout, but I also don't feel much professional fulfilment either. When you look in the graph, most of the ones with high fulfillment are curing things.

Ps: I don't get bothered by it, but it's not like I finish a day thinking "wow I really massively changed some people's lives today!". I imagine neurosurgeons feel that, although I wouldn't want to be one. Just my 2 cents.

They also regularly wonder if they’re doing anything for their patients and on some days they wonder whether they should have done something else that lets them leave before 7pm regularly and doesn’t bring them in at 7 am regularly.

 

[PsyDr]

I have some trouble accepting a “well being” scale where neurosurgery and orthopedics are at the top.

I also challenge labeling the intersection of “professional fulfillment” and “burnout” as “well being”. See infectious medicine.

 

[Stagg737]

I have some trouble accepting a “well being” scale where neurosurgery and orthopedics are at the top.

I also challenge labeling the intersection of “professional fulfillment” and “burnout” as “well being”. See infectious medicine.

Meh, ortho are some of the happiest docs I know. I used to work for a group of literally >100 orthos and most loved their jobs and felt very fulfilled. They also uniformly felt like they should have been making more, so I guess you could argue questionable insight, lol.

 

[Merovinge]

I have some trouble accepting a “well being” scale where neurosurgery and orthopedics are at the top.

I also challenge labeling the intersection of “professional fulfillment” and “burnout” as “well being”. See infectious medicine.

Derm being the 4th highest of professional fulfillment is also a bit of a joke except in the context of maybe this very specific academic setting. Unless professional fulfillment is just being interpreted as higher pay for less work.

I do think it's interesting that general psych is far more burnt out than the subspecialties, that part tracks with my experiences.