Is this the wrong time to cut back hours and pay?

[finalpsychyear]

I am 6.5 years roughly into attending hood where I have been working fairly hard and saving aggressively (200-250) mostly due to being unmarried the first 5, renting, and living on no more than 50k/yr and no kids still. The last 2 years due to being married spending now 100-120k which wasn't easy at first to stomach but now I have adjusted.

However, most days end at 6pm ish and esp the last 6 mo I find myself not working out ( used to be 5 days now sat/sun primarily) and always finding reasons to be unable to make it to my 8-10pm weekly tennis whereas before i was pretty regular.

1.5 years ago my schedule was always done by 4pm. I feel the pressure of being married, with a future house and future kids to necessitate maximizing my income so I increased my schedule from 35 ish hours to 55 ish hours with 40 of 55 being from home. It doesn't "feel" like that much more to me but are these signs that it is?

Wife finishing school and will start 100-125k position by Q4 this year but that's assuming she goes FT. Rough estimate is that our expenses will get closer to 200k with kids/mortgage/childcare/additional housing costs.

If I cut back to 30 hrs ( 3 day/wk) I estimate that Savings would only be 65k if spending does reach 200k/year based on my lower income. My wife's future income is hard to predict as not sure how long she stays FT or goes PT or stops once she has a kid so I cannot really use that for calculation purposes for the short term 3-5 years ahead.

Anyone experienced what I am going through or any thoughts appreciated.

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[sloh]

I am 6.5 years roughly into attending hood where I have been working fairly hard and saving aggressively (200-250) mostly due to being unmarried the first 5, renting, and living on no more than 50k/yr and no kids still. The last 2 years due to being married spending now 100-120k which wasn't easy at first to stomach but now I have adjusted.

However, most days end at 6pm ish and esp the last 6 mo I find myself not working out ( used to be 5 days now sat/sun primarily) and always finding reasons to be unable to make it to my 8-10pm weekly tennis whereas before i was pretty regular.

1.5 years ago my schedule was always done by 4pm. I feel the pressure of being married, with a future house and future kids to necessitate maximizing my income so I increased my schedule from 35 ish hours to 55 ish hours with 40 of 55 being from home. It doesn't "feel" like that much more to me but are these signs that it is?

Wife finishing school and will start 100-125k position by Q4 this year but that's assuming she goes FT. Rough estimate is that our expenses will get closer to 200k with kids/mortgage/childcare/additional housing costs.

If I cut back to 30 hrs ( 3 day/wk) I estimate that Savings would only be 65k if spending does reach 200k/year based on my lower income. My wife's future income is hard to predict as not sure how long she stays FT or goes PT or stops once she has a kid so I cannot really use that for calculation purposes for the short term 3-5 years ahead.

Anyone experienced what I am going through or any thoughts appreciated.

I think that's a tell tale sign you may be overdoing it. I'm about 4 years into being an attending, gross upper 6 figures/year, and work ~6 days/week. About to hit 1 million net worth and am hustling hard. But if I find myself starting to put my own health, training, exercise, and/or diet on the back burner that's a red flag. I will not compromise on those. I also feel the burden to be the provider but you won't be operating efficiently and on all cylinders if your physical or mental health decline.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I think that's a tell tale sign you may be overdoing it. I'm about 4 years into being an attending, gross upper 6 figures/year, and work ~6 days/week. About to hit 1 million net worth and am hustling hard. But if I find myself starting to put my own health, training, exercise, and/or diet on the back burner that's a red flag. I will not compromise on those. I also feel the burden to be the provider but you won't be operating efficiently and on all cylinders if your physical or mental health decline.

Thanks for your thoughts. I did realize I haven't taken a vacation in 2023 yet but coming up June through Dec, I have five 1 week trips planned thus far so maybe that is part of it. House hunting is annoying as crap in my area so this is a new stressor since lease ends in 2 mo. I also intermittent fast most days and 4pm was a great time to hit the quiet gym fasted and break it after. Now I struggle to be fasted until 6pm then go to the gym and come back and break it. Also the gym is super crowded at that time and mentally I just hate being there at the time so maybe that is part of it. Also, if i eat before i workout i just get lazy it's hard to explain when your body is tuned to working out fasted.

Part of me just feels that I already don't work nights, wknds, holidays ever and 40 of my 55 is from home. Maybe the time is an independent factor regardless of the mental fatigue. Or is not working out like before causing it.

 

[SmallBird]

Thanks for your thoughts. I did realize I haven't taken a vacation in 2023 yet but coming up June through Dec, I have five 1 week trips planned thus far so maybe that is part of it. House hunting is annoying as crap in my area so this is a new stressor since lease ends in 2 mo. I also intermittent fast most days and 4pm was a great time to hit the quiet gym fasted and break it after. Now I struggle to be fasted until 6pm then go to the gym and come back and break it. Also the gym is super crowded at that time and mentally I just hate being there at the time so maybe that is part of it. Also, if i eat before i workout i just get lazy it's hard to explain when your body is tuned to working out fasted.

Part of me just feels that I already don't work nights, wknds, holidays ever and 40 of my 55 is from home. Maybe the time is an independent factor regardless of the mental fatigue. Or is not working out like before causing it.

It's great that you have saved so aggressively! I burnout quickly if I work late but I also have goals for financial independence so I've worked hard to find a job that does both, which is why I do inpatient. A 7am to 1pm schedule still puts me ahead of my 8-5pm outpatient colleagues for the most part. The work is much more intense while you are there but you can't be the premium in terms of hours needed for a full day.

It is also important to consider all the sources of net worth growth in addition to after tax savings. Assuming a fairly commons situation of maxing our a 401k/403b, getting a 5% match from employer, maxing out two backdoor ROTH IRAs, and paying off a $4000/month mortgage, you are adding $65k to your net worth just from these contributions.

 

[Monocles]

I am 6.5 years roughly into attending hood where I have been working fairly hard and saving aggressively (200-250) mostly due to being unmarried the first 5, renting, and living on no more than 50k/yr and no kids still. The last 2 years due to being married spending now 100-120k which wasn't easy at first to stomach but now I have adjusted.

Just want to say that you've been an attending twice as long as me, and saving twice as much. Your portfolio must well be into the $1m range if not close.

It's time to cut down to part-time, my friend. Get a job that lets you have AT LEAST one additional day off a week, and none of the workdays should end after 5 pm as a hard cut off. (Or even re-negotiate at your current work down to 0.8 FTEs or less. Remember you're a psychiatrist in this current market... you're not asking your job to let you go part time, you're telling them )

 

[sloh]

Thanks for your thoughts. I did realize I haven't taken a vacation in 2023 yet but coming up June through Dec, I have five 1 week trips planned thus far so maybe that is part of it. House hunting is annoying as crap in my area so this is a new stressor since lease ends in 2 mo. I also intermittent fast most days and 4pm was a great time to hit the quiet gym fasted and break it after. Now I struggle to be fasted until 6pm then go to the gym and come back and break it. Also the gym is super crowded at that time and mentally I just hate being there at the time so maybe that is part of it. Also, if i eat before i workout i just get lazy it's hard to explain when your body is tuned to working out fasted.

Part of me just feels that I already don't work nights, wknds, holidays ever and 40 of my 55 is from home. Maybe the time is an independent factor regardless of the mental fatigue. Or is not working out like before causing it.

Are you against working out first thing in the AM or even mid day when it isn’t crowded and just having something like a whey shake after? I get that you wouldn’t be strictly adhering to Intermittent fasting but the benefit of IF is largely due to the reduction in calories people eat as a result of truncating the feeding window

 

[finalpsychyear]

Are you against working out first thing in the AM or even mid day when it isn’t crowded and just having something like a whey shake after? I get that you wouldn’t be strictly adhering to Intermittent fasting but the benefit of IF is largely due to the reduction in calories people eat as a result of truncating the feeding window

Might try that. Esp since i am remote so often. Issue is squatting, deadlifting at 630-7am makes me feel like harder to be loose like u naturally are later in day and less chance for injury.

Once i get a house which could be anytime hopefully in next 2 months plan to build a home gym with power rack and cardio. Also,living in a 1400 sq ft place doesn't help but that's lack of supply where i am esp last year for rentals.

 

[sloh]

Might try that. Esp since i am remote so often. Issue is squatting, deadlifting at 630-7am makes me feel like harder to be loose like u naturally are later in day and less chance for injury.

Once i get a house which could be anytime hopefully in next 2 months plan to build a home gym with power rack and cardio. Also,living in a 1400 sq ft place doesn't help but that's lack of supply where i am esp last year for rentals.

Ah yeah I get what you mean. I can't train immediately upon waking. I purposely do meal prep in the morning because it's a semi-active (cooking, weighing, packing, washing dishes, putting dishes away) and somewhat mindless task (it's the same routine every day so I'm mostly on autopilot) that allows me to slowly fully wake up. After meal prep and eating my first meal, I've been awake for about 1 hr and am mentally and physically ready to train. I do mostly free weights as well including free weight barbell back squats, deadlifts, barbell rows, incline dumbbell presses. What's interesting and unexpected is I am stronger training 1 hour after waking compared to later in the day after I've eaten a couple meals.

 

[jbomba]

I'm looking at houses now. Definitely planning for a workout room and rack. Would make exercise so much easier not having to drive someplace before or after work.

 

[B52slinger]

I'm looking at houses now. Definitely planning for a workout room and rack. Would make exercise so much easier not having to drive someplace before or after work.

unrelated question but I read that you were trying to do S-corp on the other thread
as S-corp can you still deduct half of your self-employment tax (which would be 7.65%?)
thanks!

 

[TexasPhysician]

You’ve just got to figure out what works best for you. I’ve always done <36 clinical hours/week. I exercise in the morning 5-7 days/week. My savings rate is great, but I also don’t plan to go to <25 hours for another couple decades. That is less of a need and more that I enjoy what I do.

 

[jbomba]

unrelated question but I read that you were trying to do S-corp on the other thread
as S-corp can you still deduct half of your self-employment tax (which would be 7.65%?)
thanks!

Honestly I have no idea. I have formed the s corp but my accountant doesn't all the deductions for me. I'll have to ask him.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Just want to say that you've been an attending twice as long as me, and saving twice as much. Your portfolio must well be into the $1m range if not close.

It's time to cut down to part-time, my friend. Get a job that lets you have AT LEAST one additional day off a week, and none of the workdays should end after 5 pm as a hard cut off. (Or even re-negotiate at your current work down to 0.8 FTEs or less. Remember you're a psychiatrist in this current market... you're not asking your job to let you go part time, you're telling them )

If I keep everything the same there is a chance I could be at the "magical" 25x retirement number by the end of 2025 but this would also depend on the market returns and with a house and kids coming maybe even not then either, but I could be somewhat in the area.

I guess the way I always looked at it was how do i maximize everything without burn out. I'm actually very lazy or I can be and I do more sometimes on a work day then on a wknd day for example. If I was on a diet I wouldn't aim for 1 pound a week fat loss but closer to 2-2.5 pounds that's how i am wired. Somewhat pushing yourself but not to an extreme.

Sadly, I am in my late 30's now and will be hitting the next digit up in a few years. I already see that I don't have the same level of desire for work as before and maybe energy/stamina/focus has started to decline. With kids on the horizon soon and sleepless nights ahead while I get older, I also think shouldn't I push it now so i can kick back sooner. I was always told the money you make as an attending the first decade that's invested will be the most worthwhile money of your life. So I process that with work harder but not nights, wknds, holidays hard especially since my tank is going to be less in the coming years with sleepless nights with new babies, sick kids, ageing parents and maybe cutting back with young kids to maximize my time with them sounds damn good.

 

[Bartelby]

You're really getting at the "what is enough" question. Speaking for myself this item from the OCPD criteria resonates:

"A miserly approach to spending for themselves and others because they see money as something to be saved for future disasters."

I am in a not too dissimilar boat, though my spouse makes a high salary which takes some pressure off me. In my case I grew up in a poor family and had the experience of getting food stamps, free lunch, medicaid pediatric visits, and hearing that we couldn't make our (very modest) mortgage payment and would be moving in with grandma. That poor kid is still inside me yelling "yeah, no crap I need to save this to stave off future disaster!" Up until recently, that led to a heavy focus on saving landing me in the 7 figure net worth range. The main moderating factor was my wife, who (for example) was not cool with living in my mildewing basement rental during residency .

Over time I have started identifying this mindset and challenging it. Like Texas mentioned, I don't plan to stop working any time soon. Having $1 million+ invested by under 40 and then continuing to work in a dual income household has made me realize that I am financially quite okay. It's unlikely my kids will ever worry about us losing our home or being unable to afford the basics.

I say all that to say it's worth reflecting on your own motivations for working harder than you want at this point. Run the numbers and it's likely that short of absolute catastrophe (like you + spouse being in a car accident at the same time that leaves both of you completely disabled) you will still be golden cutting back to part time. This mindset has made me more comfortable focusing less on money and more on what I want my work life to look like each day. I am not optimizing for money, but still feel pretty comfortable with my longer-term plan. This helps stave off burnout while keeping me anchored in realism about money. Your mileage may vary, but for me self reflection about how my own thinking was distorted by childhood patterns has made me more comfortable loosening up, which I think has overall made my life better (at least so far!).

 

[finalpsychyear]

You're really getting at the "what is enough" question. Speaking for myself this item from the OCPD criteria resonates:

"A miserly approach to spending for themselves and others because they see money as something to be saved for future disasters."

I am in a not too dissimilar boat, though my spouse makes a high salary which takes some pressure off me. In my case I grew up in a poor family and had the experience of getting food stamps, free lunch, medicaid pediatric visits, and hearing that we couldn't make our (very modest) mortgage payment and would be moving in with grandma. That poor kid is still inside me yelling "yeah, no crap I need to save this to stave off future disaster!" Up until recently, that led to a heavy focus on saving landing me in the 7 figure net worth range. The main moderating factor was my wife, who (for example) was not cool with living in my mildewing basement rental during residency .

Over time I have started identifying this mindset and challenging it. Like Texas mentioned, I don't plan to stop working any time soon. Having $1 million+ invested by under 40 and then continuing to work in a dual income household has made me realize that I am financially quite okay. It's unlikely my kids will ever worry about us losing our home or being unable to afford the basics.

I say all that to say it's worth reflecting on your own motivations for working harder than you want at this point. Run the numbers and it's likely that short of absolute catastrophe (like you + spouse being in a car accident at the same time that leaves both of you completely disabled) you will still be golden cutting back to part time. This mindset has made me more comfortable focusing less on money and more on what I want my work life to look like each day. I am not optimizing for money, but still feel pretty comfortable with my longer-term plan. This helps stave off burnout while keeping me anchored in realism about money. Your mileage may vary, but for me self reflection about how my own thinking was distorted by childhood patterns has made me more comfortable loosening up, which I think has overall made my life better (at least so far!).

Appreciate the insights. My spouse will be working later this year but just isn't wired or excited about money in general so I can't count that as she could go from FT to PT to stay at home mom in future. Other than travel she is not materialistic and is naturally a deal hunter. So, I do have all the pressure on me. The 50k pre marriage wasn't really on purpose. I just thought take my residency take home 3000k/mo and add 50 percent. I always saved usually 500/mo in residency. To be spending 5000k/mo felt/feels luxurious tbh. Now, its double that most months.

I guess my issues are from what I am seeing happen in medicine esp the admin, politics and midlevels coming into play. This is largely what drives me to get to some number asap. Recent example, admin can't figure out why overall income down though everyone is super busy... their solution to cut our lunch in half and possibly take away all admin/document time. I want FU money to not deal with BS during my medical career. Partly, I feel when i achieve that it will truly give me another level of satisfaction and encourage me to work for a few more decades.

 

[Sushirolls]

What @Bartelby said. Chill. Relax. Cut back. Live some. Can't take the money to your grave. Be there for your kids or future kids. Otherwise, if you aren't the risks of them growing up to be little scats that blow all their inheritance on blow is higher. Get a better balance, stop focusing on the money saved.

 

[Merovinge]

I'm no where near a sole provider, but let me push back a bit here and state that if you do want to be in a relationship where you are one (which it seems like is the case here, really does not sound like your SO plans to work once kids come from the way you write it), then certainly the expectation is that you will work more or have a somewhat more modest life. Obviously, you can still pay for 2 kids, a house, and a wife on 300k ish income, but if you want to spend 200k/year than you do need to make a bit more. If that's at this current job or if there is another job that better fits that goal is for you to be honest with yourself about and find out.

I will say that if your wife is going to be a SAHM, your expenses really should not jump from 100k to 200k as you will not be paying for much childcare. You might need to have a discussion with your SO on what you will be spending on your kids if you really are budgeting 50k/year for each with a SAHM. In the event your SO does work, then this will clearly cover the childcare expenses from what you are listing of her perspective salary.

 

[comp1]

The motivation to go to the gym or play tennis is kind of a secondary/tangential measure. Lots of things could be causing that. Heck it could be your marriage itself. It sounds pretty stressful from how you're describing it, to say nothing of impending children. What about the primary measure for your question? Do you enjoy your work? Do you enjoy going in to do it? The nice thing about medicine is that there are so many opportunities to find something that really intrinsically motivates you.

 

[G Sheb]

65K will set you on a 5M nest in 30 years....

I mean, look, in my book if you're not enjoying working your ass off to 'save money', then there's no point in doing it. If it's coming at the expense of your basic needs, i.e health and well being, then that's even worse.
The idea of sacrificing a decade of your life for some projected time when you will become happy is lunacy to me. No one is giving you those years back.

 

[finalpsychyear]

I'm looking at houses now. Definitely planning for a workout room and rack. Would make exercise so much easier not having to drive someplace before or after work.

Absolutely do this. When i was single with a 2000 sq foot townhouse all to myself I dedicated the ground floor to a workout room with surround sound and a large TV. I did cardio easily 5 days/wk during lunch hours or whenever. Blasting your music or watching shows is exponentially better on a large screen than on a 6 inch phone when working out. What's funny since i haven't had the space since mid 2021 the treadmill has gone from 5 days a week to maybe 5x in the last 2 years.

Maybe I am weird but i hate going to a busy gym post work enough that I won't go.

 

[Candidate2017]

$200k in expenses is a lot for a typical psychiatrist income, unless of course, you are accounting for future divorce as the sole breadwinner. In which case, it will be back to living on $50k.

 

[clozareal]

The biggest investment you can make is date night once a week. A divorce is costly. If you are sacrificing your own well being, it's likely that you're also sacrificing your capacity to attend to your relationship. Rebalance your portfolio on life, spend a little more time and energy for yourself and your relationship, and save a little less now while things are hectic. Once you get back on track with the things that are meaningful to you, you can always work/save more.

For me, I work part time (20 hours per week max) because I value my time to spend with my partner, my kids, and my hobbies. I too feel the pull to work more, save more, retire early. However, it's much more meaningful to me to prioritize my family and my interests/health so I can have longevity in my career, which is much more financially and personally valuable than burning out early on. When I find myself going towards 24-30 hours, my mind is consumed with thinking about work even outside of work and the collateral damage on my health, relationships, and well-being is definitely not worth the extra money, even if the opportunity cost is a six figure sum each year.

 

[Stagg737]

Doesn't OP have over a million already saved into retirement? If so, then just letting that grow without adding anything else you should have over $4mil in 25 years at a 6% return rate and over $5mil in 30 years. You're in great shape even if you never invest anything else.

Step back, take a deep breath, and realize you're doing great financially. You can cut back a little (or a lot), live now, and still have almost nothing to worry about. Imo as long as you've got your bases covered (disability insurance, advanced directives/wills of close relatives, etc) you should start focusing more on living now and worry less about future security.

 

[untapped]

This FIRE stuff reminds me of when I was a kid playing RPG video games where I would spend hours researching builds and stockpiling all the potions, doing all the tedious side quests, and then the game's suddenly over and I have 200 potions in my inventory.

 

[Merovinge]

Doesn't OP have over a million already saved into retirement? If so, then just letting that grow without adding anything else you should have over $4mil in 25 years at a 6% return rate and over $5mil in 30 years. You're in great shape even if you never invest anything else.

Step back, take a deep breath, and realize you're doing great financially. You can cut back a little (or a lot), live now, and still have almost nothing to worry about. Imo as long as you've got your bases covered (disability insurance, advanced directives/wills of close relatives, etc) you should start focusing more on living now and worry less about future security.

I think that's generally fair advice, except for someone to burn 200k a year and solo support a family of 4, you do need to keep a significant income.

 

[dieABRdie]

Might try that. Esp since i am remote so often. Issue is squatting, deadlifting at 630-7am makes me feel like harder to be loose like u naturally are later in day and less chance for injury.

Once i get a house which could be anytime hopefully in next 2 months plan to build a home gym with power rack and cardio. Also,living in a 1400 sq ft place doesn't help but that's lack of supply where i am esp last year for rentals.

I sink into a depression if I don't exercise regularly. I'm used to getting 5 days in lifting + 20 mins interval cardio. As my responsibilities with my practice increased... I just really don't have room for it in the PM. Plus my energy just isn't there and its not a good workout. I had to makes some changes.

1) Home gym - just going back and forth to the gym is a waste of time I don't have. I actually used to have a rack and dumbells in my condo with a divider up. Now I have a room in a house for it... so no competition for the rack

2) AM workouts - I was never a "morning person", but I don't think I can go back to afternoons anymore. I walk into clinic knowing its done and feel great all day. I keep a few fat burners at bedside and pop them when the alarm goes off. Give about 20 minutes to kick in and I'm sweating before I know it.

 

[Stagg737]

I think that's generally fair advice, except for someone to burn 200k a year and solo support a family of 4, you do need to keep a significant income.

If you're not putting anything into investments or retirement and spending everything that's post-tax though it's easily doable for a physician. $200k post tax is a salary of $285-333k using tax rates of 30-40%. Not recommending they do this, but they can easily find a psych job where they gross ~$300k working 40 hours or less per week...

Plus, if spouse works then she'd add another 6 figures to their gross income. If she goes PT or is SAHM, they can probably lower that $200k in expenses. OP sounds like they're in a pretty ideal financial situation atm.

 

[finalpsychyear]

The biggest investment you can make is date night once a week. A divorce is costly. If you are sacrificing your own well being, it's likely that you're also sacrificing your capacity to attend to your relationship. Rebalance your portfolio on life, spend a little more time and energy for yourself and your relationship, and save a little less now while things are hectic. Once you get back on track with the things that are meaningful to you, you can always work/save more.

For me, I work part time (20 hours per week max) because I value my time to spend with my partner, my kids, and my hobbies. I too feel the pull to work more, save more, retire early. However, it's much more meaningful to me to prioritize my family and my interests/health so I can have longevity in my career, which is much more financially and personally valuable than burning out early on. When I find myself going towards 24-30 hours, my mind is consumed with thinking about work even outside of work and the collateral damage on my health, relationships, and well-being is definitely not worth the extra money, even if the opportunity cost is a six figure sum each year.

Appreciate the input. Luckily, if anything we have tons of time together. More like 2-3 date nights a week. I've worked out the last 3 days in a row and just got back from playing tennis. What I do lack is a better social circle. My close friend in the area with 2 young kids its hard to get together more than 1x a month. Wife is very social and has many friends in area so doing the couples dinner and once we have the house plan to host lots of gettogethers.

I do miss the social aspect of residency. I luckily had a lot of friends and maybe a few that are still in touch out of state. I did know going in that starting a PP and working remote are very isolating.

 

[finalpsychyear]

This FIRE stuff reminds me of when I was a kid playing RPG video games where I would spend hours researching builds and stockpiling all the potions, doing all the tedious side quests, and then the game's suddenly over and I have 200 potions in my inventory.

While I didn't play RPG's much, the survival horror games I played like resident evil I would always tend to have way too much ammo saved and healing items. You can read into that maybe that rather than shooting zombies for fun, I was just running past them and maybe I missed some fun moments lol... but I def don't do that with money. I am a bit concerned that i am spending 100-120k with no kids and renting (2500).

 

[finalpsychyear]

I think that's generally fair advice, except for someone to burn 200k a year and solo support a family of 4, you do need to keep a significant income.

Spot on. I'm spending 100-120k as a couple. Rent is 2500. I pay 12k/yr for health ins since 1099 so since its deductible maybe a bit less overall then. Mortgage is likely at least 5k in this environment. Granted my 2 cars will be paid off in 3 years so that is 20k a year saved. mortgage will put a running total of 150k in short term but in 3 years back to 130k.

I doubt I will hit 200k in expenses but it could happen in the short term. Most people are already past this point 7 years into attending hood as in having kids, cars paid off, already got a mortgage.

The timing for a few of these things stink esp the housing cost in general coupled with the interest rate. Not having cars paid off doesn't help. Also, I think wife will be at least PT but for planning purposes just better to assume not working.

 

[untapped]

I don't think spending 120k for 2 people is extravagant at all. I probably spend 80k just for myself with slightly higher rent than you. Still leaves plenty for retirement saving on a 300k salary. That's whole foods, restaurants, concerts, travel (I fly southwest), used entry level luxury 30k car, reasonably priced designer clothes. Maybe I'm just permanently in a medical student mindset but the few times I've bought something truly luxurious I've forgotten about it within a couple months.

 

[Monocles]

If I keep everything the same there is a chance I could be at the "magical" 25x retirement number by the end of 2025 but this would also depend on the market returns and with a house and kids coming maybe even not then either, but I could be somewhat in the area.

I guess the way I always looked at it was how do i maximize everything without burn out. I'm actually very lazy or I can be and I do more sometimes on a work day then on a wknd day for example. If I was on a diet I wouldn't aim for 1 pound a week fat loss but closer to 2-2.5 pounds that's how i am wired. Somewhat pushing yourself but not to an extreme.

Sadly, I am in my late 30's now and will be hitting the next digit up in a few years. I already see that I don't have the same level of desire for work as before and maybe energy/stamina/focus has started to decline. With kids on the horizon soon and sleepless nights ahead while I get older, I also think shouldn't I push it now so i can kick back sooner. I was always told the money you make as an attending the first decade that's invested will be the most worthwhile money of your life. So I process that with work harder but not nights, wknds, holidays hard especially since my tank is going to be less in the coming years with sleepless nights with new babies, sick kids, ageing parents and maybe cutting back with young kids to maximize my time with them sounds damn good.

Wow. If you're within 2 years of hitting your FIRE goal, then all the reason to cut back... because nearly so much of your portfolio change will be due to market fluctuations. Meaning that you can work yourself to the bone and the market goes down -22%, or basically take an early sabbatical and still swing a +30%. It sounds like you're starting to get crispy, so going part time seems like a very reasonable middle ground. For better or worse, at this point it's "deterministic" so you might as well relax since there's so little you can change in one year relative to your overall net worth.

This FIRE stuff reminds me of when I was a kid playing RPG video games where I would spend hours researching builds and stockpiling all the potions, doing all the tedious side quests, and then the game's suddenly over and I have 200 potions in my inventory.

Yes! and there's many different approaches. I am personally doing an "any % speedrun" with the goal of quitting medicine as young as possible.

 

[clausewitz2]

Yes! and there's many different approaches. I am personally doing an "any % speedrun" with the goal of quitting medicine as young as possible.

Okay, so what area of psychiatry is the equivalent of those Twilight Princess low % runs that involve standing in one place and staring at a wall for 14 hours until you clip through it?

 

[finalpsychyear]

Wow. If you're within 2 years of hitting your FIRE goal, then all the reason to cut back... because nearly so much of your portfolio change will be due to market fluctuations. Meaning that you can work yourself to the bone and the market goes down -22%, or basically take an early sabbatical and still swing a +30%. It sounds like you're starting to get crispy, so going part time seems like a very reasonable middle ground. For better or worse, at this point it's "deterministic" so you might as well relax since there's so little you can change in one year relative to your overall net worth.


Yes! and there's many different approaches. I am personally doing an "any % speedrun" with the goal of quitting medicine as young as possible.

Hi. But someone saving counting all retirements, hsa, roth, 401k, plus savings somewhere in the 200-250/yr does add a significant amount in a few years. My 10 year plan expires technically in 2026 which is 4 years if we count 2023. Not sure I will be able to keep that savings amount up with kids, house etc coming up but thats 800k plus market returns on just that money added to the portfolio.

 

[mistafab]

Definitely cut back bro. What's the point of being alive if you can't enjoy life? I'm sure your spouse/kids would be happy to see you. I'm sure they'd value that more than the extra 65k or whatever. You're going to be fine financially.

 

[Stagg737]

Spot on. I'm spending 100-120k as a couple. Rent is 2500. I pay 12k/yr for health ins since 1099 so since its deductible maybe a bit less overall then. Mortgage is likely at least 5k in this environment. Granted my 2 cars will be paid off in 3 years so that is 20k a year saved. mortgage will put a running total of 150k in short term but in 3 years back to 130k.

I doubt I will hit 200k in expenses but it could happen in the short term. Most people are already past this point 7 years into attending hood as in having kids, cars paid off, already got a mortgage.

The timing for a few of these things stink esp the housing cost in general coupled with the interest rate. Not having cars paid off doesn't help. Also, I think wife will be at least PT but for planning purposes just better to assume not working.

Yes, but you are also well past others from a financial perspective. Despite what some might say it is quite rare for someone to be a millionaire at your age. You are part of a 0.005% of US citizens who are a millionaire and under 40 yo. If you only look at US citizens under 40 yo, then you're part of 0.01%. You are way ahead financially, and as long as you continue to spend less than you make, you will almost certainly continue to be way ahead.

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I don't think spending 120k for 2 people is extravagant at all. I probably spend 80k just for myself with slightly higher rent than you. Still leaves plenty for retirement saving on a 300k salary. That's whole foods, restaurants, concerts, travel (I fly southwest), used entry level luxury 30k car, reasonably priced designer clothes. Maybe I'm just permanently in a medical student mindset but the few times I've bought something truly luxurious I've forgotten about it within a couple months.

I mean, depends on what we're including in those numbers. If you're including rent, car payments, and other major expenses like insurances and utilities then I agree that $80-120k isn't extravagant today at all. If you're talking about just personal spending outside of that and don't think $80k/yr for one person is extravagant, then I think at least 90% of people would think you're nuts, lol.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Okay, so what area of psychiatry is the equivalent of those Twilight Princess low % runs that involve standing in one place and staring at a wall for 14 hours until you clip through it?

I want the approach that's equivalent to doing Mario 64 with 0 A presses by sitting on a platform for 71 hours.

 

[Stagg737]

I want the approach that's equivalent to doing Mario 64 with 0 A presses by sitting on a platform for 71 hours.

I'm slightly disappointed the video wasn't 71 hours, but now I want to find an old N64 and play : P

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

You were saving 200-250k a year? Thats insane. With my two retirement accounts and contributions towards my index fund/other savings and investments im saving probably roughly 120k a year plus/minus a few thousand or so. Not counting my investment returns of course.

Saving 250 is way higher than average. A salary of 300k a year would probably translate to 190-200k net, so to be able to save 250k, that is likely saving way more than the average psychiatrist a year.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

Doesn't OP have over a million already saved into retirement? If so, then just letting that grow without adding anything else you should have over $4mil in 25 years at a 6% return rate and over $5mil in 30 years. You're in great shape even if you never invest anything else.

Step back, take a deep breath, and realize you're doing great financially. You can cut back a little (or a lot), live now, and still have almost nothing to worry about. Imo as long as you've got your bases covered (disability insurance, advanced directives/wills of close relatives, etc) you should start focusing more on living now and worry less about future security.

he would have roughly 8 million by 20 years actually and at 30 years hed have 17 million. If hes saving 200k a year. And thats with six percent interest, when average annual return of index funds has been roughly 14 percent over past 10 years. So lets say that rate of return held true for 30 years for ****s and giggles and he just continually dropped 200k a year in index funds for 20 years and made 14 percent average annual return each year (for ****s and giggles), hed have 22 million lol.

Currently you can easily make 50k a year in interest off each 1 million with basically no risk. His retirement salary would be higher than most peoples attending salary.

 

[Monocles]

he would have roughly 8 million by 20 years actually and at 30 years hed have 17 million. If hes saving 200k a year. And thats with six percent interest, when average annual return of index funds has been roughly 14 percent over past 10 years. So lets say that rate of return held true for 30 years for ****s and giggles and he just continually dropped 200k a year in index funds for 20 years and made 14 percent average annual return each year (for ****s and giggles), hed have 22 million lol.

Currently you can easily make 50k a year in interest off each 1 million with basically no risk. His retirement salary would be higher than most peoples attending salary.

Seriously. I feel like OP has won the game. Time to cash out the chips and go enjoy life!

 

[Stagg737]

he would have roughly 8 million by 20 years actually and at 30 years hed have 17 million. If hes saving 200k a year. And thats with six percent interest, when average annual return of index funds has been roughly 14 percent over past 10 years. So lets say that rate of return held true for 30 years for ****s and giggles and he just continually dropped 200k a year in index funds for 20 years and made 14 percent average annual return each year (for ****s and giggles), hed have 22 million lol.

Currently you can easily make 50k a year in interest off each 1 million with basically no risk. His retirement salary would be higher than most peoples attending salary.

Right, I was saying if he stopped putting anything into retirement now, spent his entire net income every year, and just let what is already there grow he'd have 4-6 mil. If he continues to save at even half the rate he is now, he'd hit 8 figures in his next egg in 25-30 years easily. OP is winning.

 

[finalpsychyear]

Seriously. I feel like OP has won the game. Time to cash out the chips and go enjoy life!

I actually realized clinical hours are 44-45 per week plus 8 hours of admin time and maybe plus 4- hours of total driving 3/4 wks and 7 hours driving 1/4 weeks in a month. I think this isn't much more than most people's jobs.

 

[psychmd03]

I will just voice the other side since most say to cut back. I don't know what the job market will be like or the healthcare system more broadly. Who knows if jobs will plummet along with pay and working hours. There could be shifts we can't even see. I would be looking to hit push as much into the nest egg as possible as young as possible to allow it to grow. That way if there is a colossal shift in the next year or 5 or whatever you can confidently feel great that you are set and can spend at a very comfortable level. I would work to schedule time for myself IE gym into my days and work on work efficiency to cut down on stress and work hours without dropping income. I just don't quite mentally line up with everyones' very logical train of thought that you made it (even though they are correct)

 

[finalpsychyear]

I will just voice the other side since most say to cut back. I don't know what the job market will be like or the healthcare system more broadly. Who knows if jobs will plummet along with pay and working hours. There could be shifts we can't even see. I would be looking to hit push as much into the nest egg as possible as young as possible to allow it to grow. That way if there is a colossal shift in the next year or 5 or whatever you can confidently feel great that you are set and can spend at a very comfortable level. I would work to schedule time for myself IE gym into my days and work on work efficiency to cut down on stress and work hours without dropping income. I just don't quite mentally line up with everyones' very logical train of thought that you made it (even though they are correct)

Thanks for chiming in. Yes, you are right. I haven't made it. I do tend to think similar to you. Even someday reaching the magical 25x doesn't really help me as I tend to think and then the market drops by 30-40 percent and you are screwed. Hitting 50x would allow you to stay above even a 50 percent decline. Back on the hamster wheel and guess let's see where end of 2025 has me before i change anything.

 

[clozareal]

Thanks for chiming in. Yes, you are right. I haven't made it. I do tend to think similar to you. Even someday reaching the magical 25x doesn't really help me as I tend to think and then the market drops by 30-40 percent and you are screwed. Hitting 50x would allow you to stay above even a 50 percent decline. Back on the hamster wheel and guess let's see where end of 2025 has me before i change anything.

This is assuming you would take out all of your money all at once during a bear market, which you would unlikely do. If there was a sustained 50% decline in the market that lasts years, we are in for a world of hurt.

 

[Splenda88]

Lifestyle inflation is real.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

This is assuming you would take out all of your money all at once during a bear market, which you would unlikely do. If there was a sustained 50% decline in the market that lasts years, we are in for a world of hurt.

yes at that point then most of america would be screwed and they would have to act quite decisively...even though this last year was trash for the market, it dropped around 20% but its already been recovering that loss and its steadily improving. Just looking at the entire history of the market, market always recovers and if it doesnt were all screwed anyways

 

[finalpsychyear]

Lifestyle inflation is real.

Just trying to understand what you mean by this ? For me, in my area when it comes to houses I need what I need. Part of my burnout recently has been attributed to lack of space (1400sq ft) and inability to work out as before (no room for home gym). The days out of the house are actually better but ultimately part of my job is 40 hours of remote work from home during the week. That is a TON. My wife is also going to be working from home potentially in the next 12 months.

When I first lived in the area the house i dreamed of having was 600-700k maybe 5 years ago. All those houses are now worth 900k plus. It really sucks and then you add almost 6 percent interest. Yes, I could find a starter house for 600k actually one for 650k yesterday but we would move in 3 years max. The question is that's a huge hassle but so is trying to find the house we want. With interest rates so high people in those higher end houses ain't letting go of the 3 or sub percent interest so it's even harder to find those same houses now in general.

Dilemma I have to figure out in 8 weeks is do i take the plunge and pay 850-1m for the house i will live in for 10 years plus or be cheaper and get a starter house for 650ish that is just "adequate" but the notion is I will absolutely not be there more than 3-5 years guaranteed when interest rates go down and there is more house turnover.

 

[Bartelby]

I agree with the above, prepping for a future where the US stock market plunges 50 percent and does not recover seems misguided. In that scenario, we are talking catastrophe and a real change in global order. Under such circumstances, the idea of stable returns goes out the window. If your goal is to work very hard until you have 50x (for instance of 100k) to cover this you might set your kids/grandkids up to never have to work, but you are unlikely to ever escape the hamster wheel.