Podiatry Satisfaction Poll

[Prehealth1011]

I wen to school from 1986-1990 and you are correct our tuition was much lower. Starting salaries were also much lower. I know my graduating residents are starting at much higher salaries with legitimate bonus opportunities. My employer’s starting salary is much higher than you’ve mentioned as well. Colleagues working for hospitals and orthopedic groups also make much higher salaries. Higher education costs are ridiculous across the board, look at the undergraduate tuition for a school like Notre Dame. At the osteopathic schools with podiatry schools, the osteopathic students pay about $10,000 more per semester and 70%+ of them are going into primary care with lower income potential than a DPM, especially taking into account ancillary income sources like surgery center shares.

I'm a dumb osteopath. Now that I'm a PGY2, we talk money more freely. None of my seniors signed for <250k whether it's PCP or hospitalist work and jobs are plentiful. The job itself might not be for everyone, but opportunity and pay is there

"Potential" is a hard thing to sell with 300k debts and 100k starting salaries. If you took out all the surgery potentials and replaced it with guaranteed 200-250k DPM base salaries, this board would've been a happier place

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[MoostashPod]

My alma mater (Kent) advises new students to expect to pay $85,224 for tuition, cost of living, fees, etc for the first year. If we assume no increase in tuition and simply expect four years at this price, the total is 341k. Now let's assume our new student has a modest 20k in undergrad loans. Now, we are in at 360k, most of that will be at an unsubsidized student loans interest rate of 6.5%. The resident then has to make a choice as to whether he wants to try and pay off this large sum right away or shoot for some form of student loan forgiveness. This is somewhat risky decision. If he chooses to keep the federal loans until he gets a job the compound interest starts accruing and he is almost certainly going to owe >400k by the time he graduates from residency.

What's considered a good associate salary again? 150k? What percentage of pods are hospital based? No way in hell I'd let my kids go to podiatry school.

For me, undergrad was ~$42K, pod school was $240K, which gives me an upwards of ~$280K. This much debt and the accrued interest after residency was a whopping $72K, gives me $350K+ in student loans all together. I'm almost done clawing at the student loans and it's been an uphill battle. It's only going to get worse for those who enter this profession at this time. Podiatry is not feasible with the job market and huge saturation. I recommend NOT entering this profession.

 

[Pronation]

I’m still cracking up at the couple dozen shills that our “leaders” got to try and flood this forum with deceptive information. Makes you wonder how many of these shysters are private practice owners that are actively ripping off a new associate. All of the regular posters here are less than 10 years out and telling it how it truly is. Some say that these older podiatrists are just out of touch with how bad the profession has become. I disagree, they know exactly what’s going on. They need more and more fresh meat to ripoff a new associate and then eventually sucker some poor soul into buying their overvalued practice for $250k. This has all become so repetitive on this forum that it’s starting to become a bit painful now.

 

[Adam Smasher]

There's a disconnect somewhere because the answers to the questions "are you satisfied with podiatry" vs "would you recommend podiatry to a young person" tell very different stories. We can see it in the PM News polls I linked above.

I'm not particularly unhappy as a podiatrist, I know I have a better standard of living than the average American, but I am also cognizant of the steaming spoonfuls of I had to eat to get where I am.

 

[DPMGuy]

I wen to school from 1986-1990 and you are correct our tuition was much lower. Starting salaries were also much lower. I know my graduating residents are starting at much higher salaries with legitimate bonus opportunities. My employer’s starting salary is much higher than you’ve mentioned as well. Colleagues working for hospitals and orthopedic groups also make much higher salaries. Higher education costs are ridiculous across the board, look at the undergraduate tuition for a school like Notre Dame. At the osteopathic schools with podiatry schools, the osteopathic students pay about $10,000 more per semester and 70%+ of them are going into primary care with lower income potential than a DPM, especially taking into account ancillary income sources like surgery center shares.

A lot of older podiatrists trying to market podiatry try to make it sound like primary care makes less money than podiatry. This is a lie. The “potential” also does not end up being the reality for the vast majority of people.

 

[DPMGuy]

Podiatry is a total scam. Even the marketing is predatory, preying on desperate pre-meds who didn’t make it into real doctor school and are desperate to be a “doctor.” PA/NP has far better ROI, just doesn’t have that title.

 

[newfeet]

Podiatry is a total scam. Even the marketing is predatory, preying on desperate pre-meds who didn’t make it into real doctor school and are desperate to be a “doctor.” PA/NP has far better ROI, just doesn’t have that title.

I wouldn't call podiatry as spam. They need to be more honest and aware that podiatry isn't the best thing since sliced bread.

PAs don't have the title officially. But lots of patients call them doctor and they know they are PAs. They just respect them.

 

[Adam Smasher]

so here's a question, and maybe it should be a different thread, but what if you're a 20 year old bio major and things are just not working out. You don't have the head for the premed classes, your MCAT is awful, GRE not much better. You're passing your classes with low to middling grades. MD/DO/PA are beyond reach. They could go RN but no guarantee their grades will be any better for a NP/CRNA program.

Do you recommend podiatry as an option for this person? Or would they be better off doing something else, and if so, what?

 

[JustAPedicurist]

oh look no more responses from our new friends. Maybe check the IP addresses on the new accounts. They all might be from the same person.

A lot of 3am votes coming in for the poll as well. They are bringing in wheelbarrows of votes overnight. Very suspicious! Rigged!

 

[newfeet]

so here's a question, and maybe it should be a different thread, but what if you're a 20 year old bio major and things are just not working out. You don't have the head for the premed classes, your MCAT is awful, GRE not much better. You're passing your classes with low to middling grades. MD/DO/PA are beyond reach. They could go RN but no guarantee their grades will be any better for a NP/CRNA program.

Do you recommend podiatry as an option for this person? Or would they be better off doing something else, and if so, what?

I would tell them go to RN. There are alot of NP programs out there. IF they feel like RN is below them or something I would say look for something else. Also RNs can do a lot more then NP or CRNA they can go into management. They have RN roles set aside for them. They can raise to CNO or CEO of a hospital just with the RN cred.

If the person has a passion for feet I would recommend podiatry over RN.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I would tell them go to RN. There are alot of NP programs out there. IF they feel like RN is below them or something I would say look for something else. Also RNs can do a lot more then NP or CRNA they can go into management. They have RN roles set aside for them. They can raise to CNO or CEO of a hospital just with the RN cred.

If the person has a passion for feet I would recommend podiatry over RN.

Anesthesiology Assistant is what I would tell them.. they make bank. Training is minimal….

I mean hell they make more than us

 

[newfeet]

Anesthesiology Assistant is what I would tell them.. they make bank. Training is minimal….

I mean hell they make more than us

I would too if they are ok with the fact they couldn't practice in all states. I wish I applied when I lived in GA but I applied to Podiatry school because I wanted to be back in the northeast.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I would too if they are ok with the fact they couldn't practice in all states. I wish I applied when I lived in GA but I applied to Podiatry school because I wanted to be back in the northeast.

I didn’t even know it was a thing. If I did I would’ve 100% have done that.

 

[newfeet]

I didn’t even know it was a thing. If I did I would’ve 100% have done that.

I took classes with a girl who told me about it. I looked it up and it was interesting. I thought it was better than PA. And Emory was down the street from where I lived.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Another sad reality for podiatrists… those non docs who aren’t even CRNA’s who are playing candy crush during your 3 hour 1st mtp arthrodesis make double what you make

 

[Shiyuan]

Very skewed, agree 100%. Is there a virtual drop box I can use to harvest votes? 🤪

 

[newfeet]

View attachment 371792
Another sad reality for podiatrists… those non docs who aren’t even CRNA’s who are babysitting your patient during your 3 hour 1st mtp arthrodesis make double what you make

I make more than the avg AA but the road to get there isn't as clear as a AA. But I doubt I can get to 400k

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion, but just wanted to add this to this thread since so many people are posting here, 69% pass rate over 3 years. Reaccredited until 2027

 

[Adam Smasher]

Part 1 is coming up July 7, let's see how the Niners do this year...

lol @heybrother meme of the year

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Part 1 is coming up July 7, let's see how the Niners do this year...

lol @heybrother meme of the year

 

[DMEpod]

Currently this career can make you successful and pay off student loans. It honestly doesn't take much to be a better podiatrist from the guy across the street. We've all been through externships and seen countless students, I think we all know how some pods are. That being said I can't see how it will continue to be a viable career for those coming up in the next 4-7 yrs. Tuition increase with insurance reimbursement changing yearly. There likely won't be enough residencies for all the new grads in 4 years and those that do get programs will be fighting for jobs in 7 years.

You are right there is a disconnect between would I recommend this jobs vs satisfaction. If I had a college age child that asked me about going into DPM, I would tell them to look into other options. That being said I welcome the many new grads in the next decade that I can hire for a residents salary haha

 

[dtrack22]

oh look no more responses from our new friends. Maybe check the IP addresses on the new accounts. They all might be from the same person.

A lot of 3am votes coming in for the poll as well. They are bringing in wheelbarrows of votes overnight. Very suspicious! Rigged!

They’re all gone already. Only 5-6 of the APMA representatives/friends even took the time to post. The rest just voted on the poll and will contribute nothing to the forum.

As @heybrother already pointed out, how sad is it that our “leadership’s” #1 priority is voting on polls in an online message board? And making drive by posts from accounts that will disappear within a week? Instead of actually discussing/working on the real problems within the profession? I’m sure the AAOS is over in the ortho forums right now trying to persuade undergrad students and medical students that orthopedics is in fact worth their time, energy and money…

 

[Boba Foot]

As @heybrother already pointed out, how sad is it that our “leadership’s” #1 priority is voting on polls in an online message board? And making drive by posts from accounts that will disappear within a week?

The shysters have to continue to recruit bag holders until they can get out before the plane crashes. Tale as old as time.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I think we should proctor new user’s posts for about the first 45 times.

 

[dtrack22]

working with professional athletes as the Indiana Pacers' team podiatrist for 30 years

This deserves its own thread. I have a childhood friend who is an offensive coordinator in the NFL. I’ve become very familiar with the “team doctor” process. I also had some opportunities to chat with Dan Cooper after residency. Promoting this to prospective students or even current students/residents is very much false advertising. Maybe I’ll post more later…

 

[JustAPedicurist]

This deserves its own thread. I have a childhood friend who is an offensive coordinator in the NFL. I’ve become very familiar with the “team doctor” process. I also had some opportunities to chat with Dan Cooper after residency. Promoting this to prospective students or even current students/residents is very much false advertising. Maybe I’ll post more later…

Yes when I visited Barry they bragged about the possibility of becoming a team podiatrist for the Miami heat. Please share more info. I always was suspicious. But as a prospective student it seemed very cool so I thought it was actually possible…

 

[newfeet]

This deserves its own thread. I have a childhood friend who is an offensive coordinator in the NFL. I’ve become very familiar with the “team doctor” process. I also had some opportunities to chat with Dan Cooper after residency. Promoting this to prospective students or even current students/residents is very much false advertising. Maybe I’ll post more later…

I am not into sports so it would not be a selling point but I am always curious about the process of things. Tell us more.

 

[Pronation]

Yes when I visited Barry they bragged about the possibility of becoming a team podiatrist for the Miami heat. Please share more info. I always was suspicious. But as a prospective student it seemed very cool so I thought it was actually possible…

What they meant was you’ll become the team podiatrist for the Miami heat’s grandparents, clipping their toenails. ☠️

 

[Jarrod.Shapiro]

Figured this would be an interesting question to pose given the discussion lately about satisfaction with our chosen career path.

I saw this posting and felt I had to respond. I'm a podiatrist who's been in practice for 17 years after 7 years of training and overall I love my job and do not wish I had done something else. I'm disheartened to see the number of negative posts. I respectfully disagree completely with those people. Metaphorically comparing your professional life to burn meat is not productive, and it's too simplistic. I have to also criticize any one-question poll that is bound to create a conversation without nuance. Students, be careful how you interpret your information. I can explain the low results of satisfaction by sampling bias. Unfortunately, despite the hard work of the SDN folks the internet commonly draws people who are disgruntled which means a simple one-question poll is likely to result as it did. Most of us who are happy and satisfied are too busy to complain.

With that said, I'm happy to talk about the specifics of podiatry and my experience with the profession. I've been a teacher at one of the colleges, been in private practice, I do surgery, I see patients in clinic, and I work with students and residents. I see patients in the hospital, and I work and interact with a large number of podiatrists around the country as someone who has lectured at national conferences. I have written a blog called Practice Perfect for the last 18 years about being a podiatrist, and you can easily see what I'm about. I have even recently written an editorial about "dissatisfaction". I know and work with lots of very happy podiatrists.

Let's talk reality. Podiatry is an excellent career, but it's not without its challenges. Show me a profession that doesn't. Send this same poll to other medical professionals around the country and you might see similar numbers. Disgruntlement is common in medicine. Look at Medscape's polling over the past years, and you'll see what I mean. Everything has its good and bad parts, but podiatry is far on the good side in mine and other's experiences. I am privileged to treat patients, teach students and residents, fix deformities, prescribe orthotics, do procedures in the office that make people pain free immediately. I'm uplifted every time a patient tells me they are feeling better and are back to activities. I did that. I fixed that person's problem and improved their life. It's a great feeling that I get every day. On the other hand, I'm also devastated when I don't get the result I wanted. I'm saddened by diabetic patients on whom I've had to do amputations which are entirely preventable. It's a daily battle to save peoples' legs. Podiatry has been financially rewarding.

No one wants to talk about money, but I'm not afraid to tell the truth. I make far over $400,000/year. I live in an expensive part of California, I have a nice house, I drive a nice car, I can afford to put my 2 kids through high quality educations. My son is going to college in Scotland. I can afford for them to have expensive extracurricular activities. I am responsible for improving the lives of my family, and I am able to provide a high quality life to them. I also have time for some personal hobbies and pursuits. I just returned from a trip to Europe that I paid for. ALL of that came from podiatry.

Now, I work hard for all of that. I spent 7 challenging years learning to be a podiatrist. I try to improve my skills every day. I'm better now than I was 17 years ago, and I hope to better 17 years from now. I put in A LOT of hours every week. I have four jobs (all things I enjoy doing that make me money as well). No matter what you do - podiatry, medicine, finance, being a chef, being a scientist - whatever it is - being successful requires hard work. Don't want to put in the time? Just want to lay around? Then being any kind of successful anything isn't for you. Want a quick dollar? Medicine isn't for you. It's delayed gratification. It takes time to become successful.

Podiatry isn't perfect. We have our issues. That's a whole other posting! But EVERY profession has its issues. Ortho competes with neurosurgery for spinal surgery. Interventional radiologists compete with vascular surgeons to do vascular procedures. The list goes on. And it all boils down to money. Some orthopedists don't want podiatrists to take their business. That's it. Podiatrists are well capable of taking care of the lower extremity. If you have the training and experience you can do the job. No one loves having to deal with insurance companies or worrying about medical malpractice. No one likes to do charting after patient encounters. Yeah, those things are no fun. But they're part of the EVERY doctor's job, not just podiatrists. If you can't live with all that then I'm sure some other profession will be better for you. On the other hand, if you like working with people, enjoy clinical practice, surgery (and not all podiatrists do surgery by the way), want to make other's lives better, enjoy fixing a very complex part of the human body, and want to make a real difference in a medical profession that will be needed well into future decades, while making a reasonable income - and you want to work hard - then podiatry just might be for you. Best wishes and good luck on your future careers.
- Jarrod Shapiro, DPM

 

[wakaflocka88]

I saw this posting and felt I had to respond. I'm a podiatrist who's been in practice for 17 years after 7 years of training and overall I love my job and do not wish I had done something else. I'm disheartened to see the number of negative posts. I respectfully disagree completely with those people. Metaphorically comparing your professional life to burn meat is not productive, and it's too simplistic. I have to also criticize any one-question poll that is bound to create a conversation without nuance. Students, be careful how you interpret your information. I can explain the low results of satisfaction by sampling bias. Unfortunately, despite the hard work of the SDN folks the internet commonly draws people who are disgruntled which means a simple one-question poll is likely to result as it did. Most of us who are happy and satisfied are too busy to complain.

With that said, I'm happy to talk about the specifics of podiatry and my experience with the profession. I've been a teacher at one of the colleges, been in private practice, I do surgery, I see patients in clinic, and I work with students and residents. I see patients in the hospital, and I work and interact with a large number of podiatrists around the country as someone who has lectured at national conferences. I have written a blog called Practice Perfect for the last 18 years about being a podiatrist, and you can easily see what I'm about. I have even recently written an editorial about "dissatisfaction". I know and work with lots of very happy podiatrists.

Let's talk reality. Podiatry is an excellent career, but it's not without its challenges. Show me a profession that doesn't. Send this same poll to other medical professionals around the country and you might see similar numbers. Disgruntlement is common in medicine. Look at Medscape's polling over the past years, and you'll see what I mean. Everything has its good and bad parts, but podiatry is far on the good side in mine and other's experiences. I am privileged to treat patients, teach students and residents, fix deformities, prescribe orthotics, do procedures in the office that make people pain free immediately. I'm uplifted every time a patient tells me they are feeling better and are back to activities. I did that. I fixed that person's problem and improved their life. It's a great feeling that I get every day. On the other hand, I'm also devastated when I don't get the result I wanted. I'm saddened by diabetic patients on whom I've had to do amputations which are entirely preventable. It's a daily battle to save peoples' legs. Podiatry has been financially rewarding.

No one wants to talk about money, but I'm not afraid to tell the truth. I make far over $400,000/year. I live in an expensive part of California, I have a nice house, I drive a nice car, I can afford to put my 2 kids through high quality educations. My son is going to college in Scotland. I can afford for them to have expensive extracurricular activities. I am responsible for improving the lives of my family, and I am able to provide a high quality life to them. I also have time for some personal hobbies and pursuits. I just returned from a trip to Europe that I paid for. ALL of that came from podiatry.

Now, I work hard for all of that. I spent 7 challenging years learning to be a podiatrist. I try to improve my skills every day. I'm better now than I was 17 years ago, and I hope to better 17 years from now. I put in A LOT of hours every week. I have four jobs (all things I enjoy doing that make me money as well). No matter what you do - podiatry, medicine, finance, being a chef, being a scientist - whatever it is - being successful requires hard work. Don't want to put in the time? Just want to lay around? Then being any kind of successful anything isn't for you. Want a quick dollar? Medicine isn't for you. It's delayed gratification. It takes time to become successful.

Podiatry isn't perfect. We have our issues. That's a whole other posting! But EVERY profession has its issues. Ortho competes with neurosurgery for spinal surgery. Interventional radiologists compete with vascular surgeons to do vascular procedures. The list goes on. And it all boils down to money. Some orthopedists don't want podiatrists to take their business. That's it. Podiatrists are well capable of taking care of the lower extremity. If you have the training and experience you can do the job. No one loves having to deal with insurance companies or worrying about medical malpractice. No one likes to do charting after patient encounters. Yeah, those things are no fun. But they're part of the EVERY doctor's job, not just podiatrists. If you can't live with all that then I'm sure some other profession will be better for you. On the other hand, if you like working with people, enjoy clinical practice, surgery (and not all podiatrists do surgery by the way), want to make other's lives better, enjoy fixing a very complex part of the human body, and want to make a real difference in a medical profession that will be needed well into future decades, while making a reasonable income - and you want to work hard - then podiatry just might be for you. Best wishes and good luck on your future careers.
- Jarrod Shapiro, DPM

Dr. Shapiro, I’ve enjoyed your posts in the past on the topic you mentioned above.

I appreciate your insight but while you are making over $400k a year, over 90% of new grads will be making less than a NP, RN, anesthesia assistant, pathology assistant. Even my hardware rep regional manager makes far more than you and I, all without sacrificing 7 years of training plus 15+ years of hard work.

May you please provide insight to these common complaints us disgruntled SDN posters have:

1. Why is the job market for podiatry so bad
2. Why do we need more than 600 new grads every year when ortho graduates around 700 per year
3. Would you still choose this career if you came out with $300k in loans and job offers in front of you, from well regarded podiatry groups, were in the $85-120k salary range with extremely vague bonus structure language, no 401k match, bronze tier health insurance plan that only covers you? Will you risk that and work hard for another 15 years to make it to the other side?

 

[Jummy Biffett]

Thank you for your post Dr. Shapiro. I'm glad that you have built a very successful career for yourself. This is not the case for >90% of DPMs. No one is saying that the ceiling for Podiatry is low, rather the floor is far too low. Meaning you shouldn't need to open your own business/practice in order to succeed to the level you are talking about. Most students aren't expecting 400k, but they would like to know they'll have job offers in the 200k range without having to be 'geographically open'

 

[newfeet]

I saw this posting and felt I had to respond. I'm a podiatrist who's been in practice for 17 years after 7 years of training and overall I love my job and do not wish I had done something else. I'm disheartened to see the number of negative posts. I respectfully disagree completely with those people. Metaphorically comparing your professional life to burn meat is not productive, and it's too simplistic. I have to also criticize any one-question poll that is bound to create a conversation without nuance. Students, be careful how you interpret your information. I can explain the low results of satisfaction by sampling bias. Unfortunately, despite the hard work of the SDN folks the internet commonly draws people who are disgruntled which means a simple one-question poll is likely to result as it did. Most of us who are happy and satisfied are too busy to complain.

With that said, I'm happy to talk about the specifics of podiatry and my experience with the profession. I've been a teacher at one of the colleges, been in private practice, I do surgery, I see patients in clinic, and I work with students and residents. I see patients in the hospital, and I work and interact with a large number of podiatrists around the country as someone who has lectured at national conferences. I have written a blog called Practice Perfect for the last 18 years about being a podiatrist, and you can easily see what I'm about. I have even recently written an editorial about "dissatisfaction". I know and work with lots of very happy podiatrists.

Let's talk reality. Podiatry is an excellent career, but it's not without its challenges. Show me a profession that doesn't. Send this same poll to other medical professionals around the country and you might see similar numbers. Disgruntlement is common in medicine. Look at Medscape's polling over the past years, and you'll see what I mean. Everything has its good and bad parts, but podiatry is far on the good side in mine and other's experiences. I am privileged to treat patients, teach students and residents, fix deformities, prescribe orthotics, do procedures in the office that make people pain free immediately. I'm uplifted every time a patient tells me they are feeling better and are back to activities. I did that. I fixed that person's problem and improved their life. It's a great feeling that I get every day. On the other hand, I'm also devastated when I don't get the result I wanted. I'm saddened by diabetic patients on whom I've had to do amputations which are entirely preventable. It's a daily battle to save peoples' legs. Podiatry has been financially rewarding.

No one wants to talk about money, but I'm not afraid to tell the truth. I make far over $400,000/year. I live in an expensive part of California, I have a nice house, I drive a nice car, I can afford to put my 2 kids through high quality educations. My son is going to college in Scotland. I can afford for them to have expensive extracurricular activities. I am responsible for improving the lives of my family, and I am able to provide a high quality life to them. I also have time for some personal hobbies and pursuits. I just returned from a trip to Europe that I paid for. ALL of that came from podiatry.

Now, I work hard for all of that. I spent 7 challenging years learning to be a podiatrist. I try to improve my skills every day. I'm better now than I was 17 years ago, and I hope to better 17 years from now. I put in A LOT of hours every week. I have four jobs (all things I enjoy doing that make me money as well). No matter what you do - podiatry, medicine, finance, being a chef, being a scientist - whatever it is - being successful requires hard work. Don't want to put in the time? Just want to lay around? Then being any kind of successful anything isn't for you. Want a quick dollar? Medicine isn't for you. It's delayed gratification. It takes time to become successful.

Podiatry isn't perfect. We have our issues. That's a whole other posting! But EVERY profession has its issues. Ortho competes with neurosurgery for spinal surgery. Interventional radiologists compete with vascular surgeons to do vascular procedures. The list goes on. And it all boils down to money. Some orthopedists don't want podiatrists to take their business. That's it. Podiatrists are well capable of taking care of the lower extremity. If you have the training and experience you can do the job. No one loves having to deal with insurance companies or worrying about medical malpractice. No one likes to do charting after patient encounters. Yeah, those things are no fun. But they're part of the EVERY doctor's job, not just podiatrists. If you can't live with all that then I'm sure some other profession will be better for you. On the other hand, if you like working with people, enjoy clinical practice, surgery (and not all podiatrists do surgery by the way), want to make other's lives better, enjoy fixing a very complex part of the human body, and want to make a real difference in a medical profession that will be needed well into future decades, while making a reasonable income - and you want to work hard - then podiatry just might be for you. Best wishes and good luck on your future careers.
- Jarrod Shapiro, DPM

Charting is better than a bad market which is what future podiatry students will face after graduation. I just took my family to Disney World, Disneyland and Jamaica within the last year. I am not sure that helps a podiatry resident who needs to take a bad PP job, I just throwing it out there.

 

[ChartingChad]

Dr. Shapiro, I’ve enjoyed your posts in the past on the topic you mentioned above.

I appreciate your insight but while you are making over $400k a year, over 90% of new grads will be making less than a NP, RN, anesthesia assistant, pathology assistant. Even my hardware rep regional manager makes far more than you and I, all without sacrificing 7 years of training plus 15+ years of hard work.

May you please provide insight to these common complaints us disgruntled SDN posters have:

1. Why is the job market for podiatry so bad
2. Why do we need more than 600 new grads every year when ortho graduates around 700 per year
3. Would you still choose this career if you came out with $300k in loans and job offers in front of you, from well regarded podiatry groups, were in the $85-120k salary range with extremely vague bonus structure language, no 401k match, bronze tier health insurance plan that only covers you? Will you risk that and work hard for another 15 years to make it to the other side?

These are good questions, and to piggyback on this:

It might be most productive if you, DTrack, pronation, air bud, etc made a list of 5 or so clear questions you want the pro podiatry camp / leaders of our profession to answer. Right now when someone is open to a conversation they get bombarded with many many questions at once and it's hard to get a good conversation even if the potential is there.

I'd also like to add the question: "Do you think there is a major discrepancy in residency training, and if so do you think this is a problem? Do you agree some residents graduate with the skill and training to perform a TAR or charcot recon, whereas others are incapable of fixing a bunion?"

 

[Boba Foot]

I saw this posting and felt I had to respond. I'm a podiatrist who's been in practice for 17 years after 7 years of training and overall I love my job and do not wish I had done something else. I'm disheartened to see the number of negative posts. I respectfully disagree completely with those people. Metaphorically comparing your professional life to burn meat is not productive, and it's too simplistic. I have to also criticize any one-question poll that is bound to create a conversation without nuance. Students, be careful how you interpret your information. I can explain the low results of satisfaction by sampling bias. Unfortunately, despite the hard work of the SDN folks the internet commonly draws people who are disgruntled which means a simple one-question poll is likely to result as it did. Most of us who are happy and satisfied are too busy to complain.

With that said, I'm happy to talk about the specifics of podiatry and my experience with the profession. I've been a teacher at one of the colleges, been in private practice, I do surgery, I see patients in clinic, and I work with students and residents. I see patients in the hospital, and I work and interact with a large number of podiatrists around the country as someone who has lectured at national conferences. I have written a blog called Practice Perfect for the last 18 years about being a podiatrist, and you can easily see what I'm about. I have even recently written an editorial about "dissatisfaction". I know and work with lots of very happy podiatrists.

Let's talk reality. Podiatry is an excellent career, but it's not without its challenges. Show me a profession that doesn't. Send this same poll to other medical professionals around the country and you might see similar numbers. Disgruntlement is common in medicine. Look at Medscape's polling over the past years, and you'll see what I mean. Everything has its good and bad parts, but podiatry is far on the good side in mine and other's experiences. I am privileged to treat patients, teach students and residents, fix deformities, prescribe orthotics, do procedures in the office that make people pain free immediately. I'm uplifted every time a patient tells me they are feeling better and are back to activities. I did that. I fixed that person's problem and improved their life. It's a great feeling that I get every day. On the other hand, I'm also devastated when I don't get the result I wanted. I'm saddened by diabetic patients on whom I've had to do amputations which are entirely preventable. It's a daily battle to save peoples' legs. Podiatry has been financially rewarding.

No one wants to talk about money, but I'm not afraid to tell the truth. I make far over $400,000/year. I live in an expensive part of California, I have a nice house, I drive a nice car, I can afford to put my 2 kids through high quality educations. My son is going to college in Scotland. I can afford for them to have expensive extracurricular activities. I am responsible for improving the lives of my family, and I am able to provide a high quality life to them. I also have time for some personal hobbies and pursuits. I just returned from a trip to Europe that I paid for. ALL of that came from podiatry.

Now, I work hard for all of that. I spent 7 challenging years learning to be a podiatrist. I try to improve my skills every day. I'm better now than I was 17 years ago, and I hope to better 17 years from now. I put in A LOT of hours every week. I have four jobs (all things I enjoy doing that make me money as well). No matter what you do - podiatry, medicine, finance, being a chef, being a scientist - whatever it is - being successful requires hard work. Don't want to put in the time? Just want to lay around? Then being any kind of successful anything isn't for you. Want a quick dollar? Medicine isn't for you. It's delayed gratification. It takes time to become successful.

Podiatry isn't perfect. We have our issues. That's a whole other posting! But EVERY profession has its issues. Ortho competes with neurosurgery for spinal surgery. Interventional radiologists compete with vascular surgeons to do vascular procedures. The list goes on. And it all boils down to money. Some orthopedists don't want podiatrists to take their business. That's it. Podiatrists are well capable of taking care of the lower extremity. If you have the training and experience you can do the job. No one loves having to deal with insurance companies or worrying about medical malpractice. No one likes to do charting after patient encounters. Yeah, those things are no fun. But they're part of the EVERY doctor's job, not just podiatrists. If you can't live with all that then I'm sure some other profession will be better for you. On the other hand, if you like working with people, enjoy clinical practice, surgery (and not all podiatrists do surgery by the way), want to make other's lives better, enjoy fixing a very complex part of the human body, and want to make a real difference in a medical profession that will be needed well into future decades, while making a reasonable income - and you want to work hard - then podiatry just might be for you. Best wishes and good luck on your future careers.
- Jarrod Shapiro, DPM

Such a long post and does not even address the main complaint which is the poor job market. I don't think you are getting the point here, sir.

As has been said before, every new poster keeps talking about how great their life and career is while ignoring the main complaint they are supposedly here to refute. We don't really care where your son is going to college, we are concerned with the amount of debt new students are taking while being thrown into a poor and saturated job market.

 

[dtrack22]

Dr. Shapiro, I’ve enjoyed your posts in the past on the topic you mentioned above.

I appreciate your insight but while you are making over $400k a year, over 90% of new grads will be making less than a NP, RN, anesthesia assistant, pathology assistant. Even my hardware rep regional manager makes far more than you and I, all without sacrificing 7 years of training plus 15+ years of hard work.

May you please provide insight to these common complaints us disgruntled SDN posters have:

1. Why is the job market for podiatry so bad
2. Why do we need more than 600 new grads every year when ortho graduates around 700 per year
3. Would you still choose this career if you came out with $300k in loans and job offers in front of you, from well regarded podiatry groups, were in the $85-120k salary range with extremely vague bonus structure language, no 401k match, bronze tier health insurance plan that only covers you? Will you risk that and work hard for another 15 years to make it to the other side?

Just stop. He made the same post they all do. Look how successful “I am” as a podiatrist. Hey, I’m successful too. Not one mention of a single issue brought up by the SDN regulars. Attrition rates in schools, training quality discrepancies, job market (especially for new grads), etc. Instead he claims that everyone in medicine has similar issues. But they don’t. Ortho spine and neuro don’t actually have some sort of competition for jobs or patients because there are plenty to go around for both. Many hospitals around the country will take years to find a vascular surgeon or an interventionalist. They aren’t competing for anything.

He won’t address any of the actual issues/concerns. Once again, he hasn’t experienced any of it in the past 5,10,15 years. He started at a time when tuition was cheaper, practice loans were readily available, reimbursements were higher, and you could get training that really set you a part from your peers who didn’t have the same training. We pump out 600 grads that on paper now look the same even though we know they aren’t. It’s a different world and none of these guys and gals live in it.

 

[FutureDPM323]

You know this profession is broken when grads from the supposedly top name residency programs in the country are all clamoring to get a fellowship, not to enhance their surgical skills, but so they can standout when job hunting.

Only in podiatry could a person graduate at the top of their class, go to a top residency with great surgical volume and end up with the same job as the person who graduated last and went to a **** residency.

 

[dtrack22]

I'd also like to add the question: "Do you think there is a major discrepancy in residency training, and if so do you think this is a problem? Do you agree some residents graduate with the skill and training to perform a TAR or charcot recon, whereas others are incapable of fixing a bunion?"

Yes. The Atlanta VA, for example, should be shut down. Something around 200 residency seats at various programs easily shouldn’t exist.

How do programs we all know are providing suboptimal training and fudging surgical MAVs continue to pass site visits and maintain accreditation?

 

[Jummy Biffett]

Get in touch with a multispecialty group and convince them to hire you.

Funny, I actually did this about a month ago. Had a great convo with the Medical Director, he said it sounds like a great idea to take on another DPM (they have one already). He was going to talk about it to the other DPM and get back to me. I think we all know how it ended up....

Needless to say I did not convince them to hire me.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I cut and trim and file away,
Toenails every single day,
My hands are sore, my back in pain,
My heart is heavy, filled with disdain.

I dreamed of helping others heal,
But now I'm trapped in debt's cruel wheel,
The cost of school, too high to bear,
Leaves me with little time to spare.

I see my peers in other fields,
Making more than I can yield,
And wonder if it was all in vain,
This path I chose, this endless pain.

I wish I could rewind the past,
Make a different choice at last,
But now I'm stuck with this regret,
A podiatrist with student debt.

So I'll keep trimming, filing, and cutting,
My passion dwindling, my heart gutting,
Hoping one day to break free,
From this life that's not meant to be.

 

[Feeter]

You know this profession is broken when grads from the supposedly top name residency programs in the country are all clamoring to get a fellowship, not to enhance their surgical skills, but so they can standout when job hunting.

Only in podiatry could a person graduate at the top of their class, go to a top residency with great surgical volume and end up with the same job as the person who graduated last and went to a **** residency.

Best fellowship graduates are also hurting for jobs. I know of several fellowship graduates from supposedly top programs that ended up moving around until they found a well paying job. Many of them in rural locations (nothing wrong with that if that's what you want) First few jobs they had were all associateships with low pay and low surgical volume.

 

[Feeter]

Anesthesiology Assistant is what I would tell them.. they make bank. Training is minimal….

I mean hell they make more than us

Limited to where you can practice. Only certain states allow AA. Pay is great though. Know someone who graduates soon and has 220k starting. No call.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Limited to where you can practice. Only certain states allow AA. Pay is great though. Know someone who graduates soon and has 220k starting. No call.

Podiatrists are limited where we can practice… AA is a way better gig. We’re fools. It’s fine to admit it

 

[newfeet]

Podiatrists are limited where we can practice… AA is a way better gig. We’re fools. It’s fine to admit it

I'll admit. If I wanted to stay in Atlanta back in the day it would be the best option. Two years and start to work. I cant even break into the Atlanta hospital systems as a podiatrist. I was rejected by the Atlanta VA because millions of podiatrist applied for one job.

 

[dtrack22]

I cant even break into the Atlanta hospital systems as a podiatrist. I was rejected by the Atlanta VA because millions of podiatrist applied for one job

To any one of our new APMA friends. Which other medical specialties (or any healthcare professional for that matter) can’t get a VA job due to high demand for the open VA position?

 

[podwho]

All I’m reading is it sucked in 1990, sucked in 2000, and still sucks in 2023. Atleast in 1990 you got 2-5k for a bunion. How many of those did it take to pay for your student loans?

It’s a simple dichotomy. Either your an owner and you earn a good living OR your an employee and your fked. Everyone else transitioned to mainstream healthcare jobs… multipaecialty, hospital, VA, academia.

Problem is opening a practice is nearly impossible in 2023 while 75% of those in 1990 went in expecting to open their own practice.

Once you understand that then you get why in 2023 the equation has changed and everyone is complaining. My advice is to stay away from podiatry if you’re considering it and think you can clock in and clock out and earn a good living. Odds are against you.


Also this talk about every specialty having its challenges is so irrelevant because their floor is 200k no matter what you do. There are endless jobs in the middle of no where paying 400k. I know because half my medicine residents in training who were on visa took them. Meanwhile 100pods apply for that single job in rural Minnesota.

So all you old pods can gtfo with your life stories. No one in school or residency is buying it. You want to help? Then offer a dam job.

 

[Pronation]

So all you old pods can gtfo with your life stories. No one in school or residency is buying it. You want to help? Then offer a dam job.

They are offering jobs. 100k, garbage bonus, and garbage benefits. Now what?

 

[HardRoadPaved]

So all you old pods can gtfo with your life stories.

THANK YOU! This forum in the past 24 hours makes me want to punch a wall so hard in frustration but I need my damn hands too much to work to pay back my loans

 

[Feli]

...The profession does not have a puppet master (organization) planning the opening (or closing) or schools or residencies.

APMA doesn’t control how many schools open and actually CPME doesn’t “control” how many schools open.

In the USA, it’s a free country and if a University or College meets the CPME 120/130 criteria to offer a DPM degree, it must be accredited. It would be restraint of trade to block a school to limit competition (even if that was good for the profession - which I don’t share the same opinion).

No one at APMA or CPME or AACPM (or any other acronym) opened LECOM or UTRGV. They did so on their own. It’s a free market and the market will decide if schools remain open or if new schools offer a better “product.”

Once a school opens, of course they should receive the profession’s full support and be welcomed by all the organizations.

As much as it pains me to hit the "un-ignore" button for a minute to quote this, I must say:

This above is the TERRIBLE think tank which has landed us into this mess of rough job market, DPMs underpaid relative to peer docs/surgeons in terms of salary or RVU or benefits or any other metric, podiatry schools with unfilled seats, junk residencies, poor student and resident board pass rates, residency shortages, and infighting (such as the ABPM board of directors walkout, which you may remember last month?).

How can ortho, derm, optho, and every real medical specialty self-regulate residency seats... yet podiatry cannot???

That makes no sense whatsoever that podiatry is unable to throttle schools, seats, residency spots. None. At all.

I suppose those other successful professions such as plastics, urology, CRNAs, cardiology, etc etc attract good very students, have good jobs for their trainees, achieve consistently high income do it all via "restraint of trade?"
Give me a break. Claiming the leadership is helpless to properly regulate the profession "restraint of trade" sounds like some random forgotten dem candidate... who lost by about 21% a decade ago. Maybe they should get over it and learn the lesson.

Opening new schools which force residency shortage and/or hastily created residency spots and worsen a poor job market for DPMs should not receive "the profession's full support." That's inane. Podiatrists, like anyone else, want to make a living and have work to do, have options for job locations and types, and get paid appropriately. They do not want 35% more schools and pay driven down in the way pharmacy schools damaged PharmD value! The vast majority of DPMs will NOT support worsening saturation towards the levels of chiropractors. Why would they want to drive down pay, workload, demand, respect for what we do?

...The only people saying these new podiatry schools and lack of good jobs are "welcomed" are those admins, professors, deans, organization "leaders" who stand to benefit from more DPMs via professor monies, new organization members, new DPM associates to underpay, having their subpar residency program fill its seats, and other means.

 

[Jummy Biffett]

...The only people saying these new podiatry schools and lack of good jobs are "welcomed" are those admins, professors, deans, organization "leaders" who stand to benefit from more DPMs via professor monies, new organization members, new DPM associates to underpay, having their subpar residency program fill its seats, and other means.

And don't forget Venture Capital! As a wise man once said: 'venture capital loves podiatry'

 

[JustAPedicurist]

And don't forget Venture Capital! As a wise man once said: 'venture capital loves podiatry'