Podiatry Satisfaction Poll

[Poddy2Hotty]

venture capital believes in podiatry.

Is this supposed to be a good thing?
Venture capital only care about profits. They don't care about how many podiatrists or patients get screwed over in the process...

This should be illegal in direct patient care medicine. The only one that wins is the investors.

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[wakaflocka88]

I’m glad new posters are joining to share their perspective but none of them even touched the fact that tuition currently in present day (not 1970s) is 3x the average starting salary of private practice. And I’m 99% sure they know buddies that employ associates for $100k or less. Helping people is one thing as a life mission if that’s your calling but struggling with debt is not cool

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I’m glad new posters are joining to share their perspective but none of them even touched the fact that tuition currently in present day (not 1970s) is 3x the average starting salary of private practice. And I’m 99% sure they know buddies that employ associates for $100k or less. Helping people is one thing as a life mission if that’s your calling but struggling with debt is not cool

none of them will actually respond to this. guarantee it.

 

[poddocdpm]

And how were your stats as a 'pre-pod?' Was DPM your first choice or were you 'recruited' after the benchmark to MD/DO was out of reach?
If you had a choice to be a doctor and didnt want to deal with dying, why didnt you choose: psych, derm, rad, path, pain management / physiatry?
Hello! Happy to answer. I did not apply to allopathic medical school. Podiatry was my first choice.

How many days as a DPM do you do surgery? How do you battle dwindling reimbursements where a bunion pays you less than a new patient with a simple fx that needs a boot?
I do surgery about twice a month. Yes, I make more $$$ in the office doing procedures and orthotics and I'm happy doing so. Part of that is related to the distance to the surgery center with travel time etc. There are docs in my large group that make far more $$$ than I do and choose to do little to no surgery. It's an option for us, not required and not everyone wants to do it (and not everyone should do it) That's ok.

Any MD/DO can be guaranteed a freaking opportunity do 'surgery' when they get out. Technically 11721 is surgery! Glad I can spend 7 years training for that.
I think you know what I meant. If you're not at the top of your class in MD/DO, you probably won't be matching in Ortho, neurosurgery etc. I'm aware that 11721 is a "surgical code", but that was not what I was referring to.

Actually most dentists are the best pain management specialists. What an old trope that DDS/DMD is a bad life.
What's next, you're gonna tell us about suicide rates in dentists? You seem to know about this.

Want to work for Healthdrive? They are ready for you too!

So many jobs that pay 100k ! Glad I can move there to work for pennies on the dollar there with a lower cost of living.
There are ****ty employers out there. If you don't like it, move on. Seriously. No reason to bring everyone down (or doubt those of us who are happy) There are VA jobs paying over 200K now. There are other places to live. I'm on this thread (and answering you) because most of the really vocal people on this site are unhappy. People need to know that not everyone is unhappy. Is my life perfect? NO. Am I happy with my choice? YES. There are plenty of us who are, but we are not spending all our extra time on here complaining. There has to be a balanced discussion and up until this point it has not been.

So you're saying yes its ok to be abused for a fraction of your value during your high production years only to turn around and screw the next generation.
NO, it's not ok to be abused. I had a job once that I felt I should have been paid more. Simple as that. I left after a few years and started my own practice. I NEVER would have known how to run a practice if I started from scratch (no type of doctor would), so I chalked it up to experience and moved on. Was I abused? No. Was I undervalued? Yes. I have an associated who is a partner now, she's been here 8 years. It's worked out well for all of us.
Adios. I'm sure you wont reply here again. Well there you go.

The results of this poll aren't "skewed" or "bots", it's just that people are responding who haven't participated before. It doesn't mean their opinion shouldn't be counted.

 

[padeheer]

I’m glad new posters are joining to share their perspective but none of them even touched the fact that tuition currently in present day (not 1970s) is 3x the average starting salary of private practice. And I’m 99% sure they know buddies that employ associates for $100k or less. Helping people is one thing as a life mission if that’s your calling but struggling with debt is not cool

I wen to school from 1986-1990 and you are correct our tuition was much lower. Starting salaries were also much lower. I know my graduating residents are starting at much higher salaries with legitimate bonus opportunities. My employer’s starting salary is much higher than you’ve mentioned as well. Colleagues working for hospitals and orthopedic groups also make much higher salaries. Higher education costs are ridiculous across the board, look at the undergraduate tuition for a school like Notre Dame. At the osteopathic schools with podiatry schools, the osteopathic students pay about $10,000 more per semester and 70%+ of them are going into primary care with lower income potential than a DPM, especially taking into account ancillary income sources like surgery center shares.

 

[poddocdpm]

I’m glad new posters are joining to share their perspective but none of them even touched the fact that tuition currently in present day (not 1970s) is 3x the average starting salary of private practice. And I’m 99% sure they know buddies that employ associates for $100k or less. Helping people is one thing as a life mission if that’s your calling but struggling with debt is not cool

I completely understand. My spouse and I both had student loan debt. I graduated in 1993. Salaries were very low at the time. I personally pay my (now partner) DPM more than that (they make as much as I do now). There are many more high paying jobs out there than there ever were before. Sure there have been times in my career when we struggled, but often it was my choice to work less and spend more time with my family. I'm grateful I had that opportunity to make that lifestyle choice.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

Did you just really compare 2023 pay and debt to 1993?

Is today April 1st?

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Don't let them fool you. A quick browse through this forum will show posts from 15 years ago where associate salaries are the exact same as they are now. while tuition is clearly not.

 

[Pronation]

Lol @ all these new TFP accounts that graduated decades ago. Nobody outside your circle cares how much you love your job. The current job market is awful. Most new grads are going to get stuck with garbage private practice associate gigs making 100k with garbage benefits after accruing 300k podometric school debt. All because of the greed of this profession. I wonder how many of these “new accounts” are private practice owners that are ripping off new associates. Good riddance.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Let’s be realistic. If this profession is as good as the new posters with minimal SDN history are saying, these recurring threads can not exist. We can’t make this stuff up.

And these posts keep tossing the phrases “higher salary” “legitimate bonus”. Show us the numbers. Higher can mean 60k back in 1993 and now it’s 90k.

I have 4 friends that got completely owned hard when VC bought out the practice. Owners/partners cashed out happily while associates got crushed.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

It's 2023. Gen Z and Younger Millennials know that there is more to life than work. The reason no one is applying to podiatry school is because it's not worth it. 11 years to be in massive debt is no one's "calling". At everyone's death bed they are not going to be proud of the amount of TAR's (lol) they put in, or that they worked 100 hour weeks. They are going to wish they spent more time with their families, kids, and traveling.

 

[newfeet]

It's 2023. Gen Z and Younger Millennials know that there is more to life than work. The reason no one is applying to podiatry school is because it's not worth it. 11 years to be in massive debt is no one's "calling". At everyone's death bed they are not going to be proud of the amount of TAR's (lol) they put in, or that they worked 100 hour weeks. They are going to wish they spent more time with their families, kids, and traveling.

I’m Gen X/“Xennial” and I have no interest in private practice and surgical center shares.

So I will never really understand that argument as a selling point. But I never lived it I’ve been in hospital for the last 9 years.

And I would perfectly fine with being a pcp maybe I would be able to get some of these paid medical director roles

 

[Feli]

... publishing peer-reviewed articles and blogging for Podiatry Today ...

WhaaaaaAaa?

We all realize Podiatry Today is a bunch of ads and a magazine/website - not a journal - right??
Just making sure. I would hope anyone knows that even before graduating pod school. It works fantastic as a bottom liner for wastebaskets with similar dimensions.

This would be like bragging of being in an article of Podiatry Management. Yikes. Haven't you published in JFAS? I can't think of anything, but I'd assume maybe you did a few times. That's the only podiatry journal that's even a true journal or worth even mentioning. Podiatry Today... to claim as scholarly or a repuation builder? Cmon.

I seriously think Podiatry Today probably gets mainly the info-mercial "research" articles to dupe people or get a product name out... and the reject case study or terrible articles from lowly JAPMA... that were rejected before that from obscure international foot journals... and declined by Clinics in Pod Med... and had been initially rejected by JFAS prior to all of that.

 

[dtrack22]

I wen to school from 1986-1990 and you are correct our tuition was much lower. Starting salaries were also much lower. I know my graduating residents are starting at much higher salaries with legitimate bonus opportunities. My employer’s starting salary is much higher than you’ve mentioned as well. Colleagues working for hospitals and orthopedic groups also make much higher salaries. Higher education costs are ridiculous across the board, look at the undergraduate tuition for a school like Notre Dame. At the osteopathic schools with podiatry schools, the osteopathic students pay about $10,000 more per semester and 70%+ of them are going into primary care with lower income potential than a DPM, especially taking into account ancillary income sources like surgery center shares.

Upperline health doesn’t offer new associates in their podiatry groups more than PCPs are offered in any employed model. Family medicine docs can also easily make closer to $400k taking inpatient shifts. And they do that well in MSGs where they are owners and share in profits. And it’s easy for them to find those jobs anywhere in the country. I wouldn’t want to do their work but they have so many more options than us and they make more money than a majority of podiatrists throughout their career. Podiatry’s “ceiling” is relatively meaningless when the reality is that average pay is still sub $200k when you poll the average podiatrist.

$80k base salaries where bonuses are set at collections 3.5x the base still exist all over the country.

None of the directors or attendings of residency programs will admit the number of their graduates taking the typical $100k, 30% collections jobs in podiatry groups. It’s still a large majority of new grads. Practicelink has 26 podiatry jobs listed in the entire country. 2 of them are for Nurse Practicioners and some are nursing home gigs and a couple of IHS jobs.

Oddly enough, no jobs listed in NC where jobs are supposedly as abundant as the salmon of Capistrano.

Our largest academic college (ACFAS) has a partner job board that lists 24 whole jobs, most of which are garbage. Still none in NC. Weird.

We should not be pumping out as many new grads as we are. Ortho only puts 700 ish new grads into their job market every year. Podiatry should be no more than 1/3 of that.

 

[Pronation]

We should not be pumping out as many new grads as we are. Ortho only puts 700 ish new grads into their job market every year. Podiatry should be no more than 1/3 of that.

But what about all those people who can't reach their toenails to clip them? Who will help them then?

 

[Feli]

...Oddly enough, no jobs listed in NC where jobs are supposedly as abundant as the salmon of Capistrano.

Our largest academic college (ACFAS) has a partner job board that lists 24 whole jobs, most of which are garbage. Still none in NC. Weird....

NC is an ok place to practice overall. I held my license there for a decade and kept tabs on jobs periodically... mostly Triad but looked all over.
I have interviewed for hospital gigs there, met with PPs, looked at buyout... none were a good fit. I let the license go.

The reasons there are not a ton of DPMs in NCaro (density vs other states/areas) is basically threefold:

1. The board exam was proven in litigation to be borderline corrupt and no DPM residencies in NC -obviosuly no pod school nearby either - for a long while (exam has changed to tough but fair when I took it to now even higher pass, as new account said)
2. Ortho is VERY VERY strong in NC, many training programs and fellowships... probably even stronger than Texas. Even top DPMs with good training in NC do mostly DM stuff and basic podiatry (many do nursing homes or house call podiatry also). Many hospitals don't hire operative DPMs. NC scope may have ankles, but you will barely see any DPMs doing them unless it's DM or Charcot or something. Many PCPs don't send podiatry anything except general podiatry refers.
3. The NC population is growing fast (Cali flight and NC is a cool place to live), so that helps the ratio look better.

I would say NC is an ok place to practice, but it's no panacea. I did get some letters of job openings when I passed the NC exam, but they were basic PP offers... have to dig for the hospital or good group ones. It was likely a lot better years prior when DPMs mostly just learned forefoot or were non-op... the ratios are ok for that in most parts. Most surgically trained DPMs there use a small fraction of their skill set, though... most don't even have privileges for very much. The ones doing hospital employ stuff mostly work VERY hard... I know multiple good ones that burnt out within a couple years. Many ACFAS guys try it and leave. So... not the best, not the worst. Very good climate, economy, near the ocean but also forests, etc... sub-optimal if you have good 3yr training and want to use it.

 

[BobSage]

are trustees and board members paid by the board.

I assume that by board members and trustees, you are asking about the APMA Board of Trustees... No they are not paid positions. All volunteer except for the President

 

[dtrack22]

NC is an ok place to practice overall. I held my license there for a decade and kept tabs on jobs periodically... mostly Triad but looked all over.
I have interviewed for hospital gigs there, met with PPs, looked at buyout... none were a good fit. I let the license go.

The reasons there are not a ton of DPMs in NCaro (density vs other states/areas) is basically threefold:

1. The board exam was proven in litigation to be borderline corrupt and no DPM residencies in NC -obviosuly no pod school nearby either - for a long while (exam has changed to tough but fair when I took it to now even higher pass, as new account said)
2. Ortho is VERY VERY strong in NC, many training programs and fellowships... probably even stronger than Texas. Even top DPMs with good training in NC do mostly DM stuff and basic podiatry (many do nursing homes or house call podiatry also). Many hospitals don't hire operative DPMs. NC scope may have ankles, but you will barely see any DPMs doing them unless it's DM or Charcot or something. Many PCPs don't send podiatry anything except general podiatry refers.
3. The NC population is growing fast (Cali flight and NC is a cool place to live), so that helps the ratio look better.

I would say NC is an ok place to practice, but it's no panacea. I did get some letters of job openings when I passed the NC exam, but they were basic PP offers... have to dig for the hospital or good group ones. It was likely a lot better years prior when DPMs mostly just learned forefoot or were non-op... the ratios are ok for that in most parts. Most surgically trained DPMs there use a small fraction of their skill set, though... most don't even have privileges for very much. The ones doing hospital employ stuff mostly work VERY hard... I know multiple good ones that burnt out within a couple years. Many ACFAS guys try it and leave. So... not the best, not the worst. Very good climate, economy, near the ocean but also forests, etc... sub-optimal if you have good 3yr training and want to use it.

The question was not, “are the jobs ok.” The question was, “if NC has ‘SO MANY jobs’ (direct quote) then where are they listed?”

Hint: they aren’t because there aren’t that many and the ones that are hiring require you to cold call podiatry practices to go be an associate for $100-120k. But don’t worry, “income potential is virtually unlimited!”

 

[newfeet]

I assume that by board members and trustees, you are asking about the APMA Board of Trustees... No they are not paid positions. All volunteer except for the President

I didn’t know the president was a paid position. I thought it was unpaid.

 

[BubbaWub]

But what about all those people who can't reach their toenails to clip them? Who will help them then?

I am a firm believer that the underlying issue is Gastrocnemius equinus which is causing them to not be able to clip their toenails appropriately. I prefer the Baumann procedure in these instances. If you have any questions, I can shower you with an abundance of literature to back up my claim. Thank you

 

[JustAPedicurist]

I am a firm believer that the underlying issue is Gastrocnemius equinus which is causing them to not be able to clip their toenails appropriately. I prefer the Baumann procedure in these instances. If you have any questions, I can shower you with an abundance of literature to back up my claim. Thank you

Ah I can recognize a fellow graduate of the prestigious Wyckoff Podiatric Residency program anywhere. You’re a good man.

 

[Feli]

The question was not, “are the jobs ok.” The question was, “if NC has ‘SO MANY jobs’ (direct quote) then where are they listed?”

Hint: they aren’t because there aren’t that many and the ones that are hiring require you to cold call podiatry practices to go be an associate for $100-120k. But don’t worry, “income potential is virtually unlimited!”

Yeah, they are not easy to find... even though I had good training and held the NC license.
Even the avg PP ones are more obscure than other areas, and most won't even talk to you until you have a license (due to high fail rates until recently). Over a decade of browsing and calling to NC occasionally, I basically found a couple of pretty crusty hospital jobs (98% DM wounds + salvage, 2% fun stuff) and some PP jobs that paid similar to other areas/states with more reasonable cost of living. Most of the PP owners were fine with me being the main surgical DPM for the group if hired but told me, "you won't do much - if any - of that around here" (triples, trauma, ankle work, etc). There was one MSG job that I called for more info on the job, and they told me they were actually shutting it down due to too many applications to handle already... very unlimited?

The only NC DPM that I know (I know dozens through networking) who is doing a good amount of RRA there gets his refers from other DPMs in a large group... very few from ERs or PCPs. Those refers just very seldom end up in pod offices due to the crazy strong ortho presence. There are a lot of NC pods with good residency or even fellowship hanging out with fancy hospital jobs doing hammertoes and wounds, tough. At least a few very skilled DPMs have even joined NC ortho groups (figuring to do full scope) and then left when it turns out mainly forefoot basics. It'll be a very gradual shift perhaps.

 

[BobSage]

I’m glad new posters are joining to share their perspective but none of them even touched the fact that tuition currently in present day (not 1970s) is 3x the average starting salary of private practice. And I’m 99% sure they know buddies that employ associates for $100k or less. Helping people is one thing as a life mission if that’s your calling but struggling with debt is not cool

I understand that medicine is expensive, I have a child that is a first year resident. I also had to buy into a practice after being in practice for only 2 years for $250,000 dollars, which I had no idea how I was going to come up with the money with three kids and loads of debt.

Yes, some salaries are 100K or less, but I would say try to negotiate for a production based salary. It is better for the employer and it is better for you. It can be very scary to work off of production when you are first starting out, but if you work hard you get rewarded.

Get out into the community and get to know people. Talk to doctors in the area. Give a speech at the local community center. Get on call at your hospital. Do hospital rounds. Take the time to talk to the nurses and the aides and the housekeepers, etc. You will build a practice and you will make good money.

Also not everything has to be surgery based. 85% or more of my practice is NOT surgery. I treat lots of wounds. I have tons of plantar fasciitis and Achilles Tendonitis in my practice. I have coached a lot of middle school teams and I have lots of injured athletes who are past players of mine or from other teams that I see.

I get it that debt is huge. Pay it back on an income driven plan and look to start out slow. In a few years, you will be making better money and have the ability to pay more of it back. The vast majority of us do not have any influence into what it cost to get into the profession but we can't change the past. Also if you don't want to work for someone, look to buy someone out, often they can help you out in the buyout process. then you are the boss with an intact system, employees and equipment and you will be on the insurance plans, etc.

Talk to a hospital system and become employed by them. Get in touch with a multispecialty group and convince them to hire you. There are tons of options available for you. Take the time, make the effort. You will be rewarded.

 

[BubbaWub]

Ah I can recognize a fellow graduate of the prestigious Wyckoff Podiatric Residency program anywhere. You’re a good man.

Thank you for your kind words sir. I am just trying to do the lords work. The Gastrocnemius equinus pandemic cannot be ignored much longer, make no mistake, we are on the front lines. Podiometric warriors, if you will.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Thank you for your kind words sir. I am just trying to do the lords work. The Gastrocnemius equinus pandemic cannot be ignored much longer, make no mistake, we are on the front lines. Podiometric warriors, if you will.

Bravo. And as a Wyckoff resident graduate you are experienced in the 50 gastrocs you did to achieve your RRA numbers.

 

[toesten]

How many of these new posters are program directors/coordinators?

Not me

 

[dtrack22]

Talk to a hospital system and become employed by them. Get in touch with a multispecialty group and convince them to hire you.

There are zero healthcare professionals, other than podiatrists, who have to do this to find jobs. The fact that our leadership (ie you and the new posters) don’t think it’s a problem, is exactly why folks here would not encourage undergrad students to go into podiatry. Even those of us with good jobs.

 

[Feli]

I understand that medicine is expensive...

Yes, some salaries are 100K or less...

....build a practice and you will make good money.

...I get it that debt is huge. Pay it back on an income driven plan and look to start out slow...

...Talk to a hospital system and become employed by them....

...Get in touch with a multispecialty group and convince them to hire you...

...There are tons of options available for you. Take the time, make the effort. You will be rewarded.

Ok, so I think everyone realizes you are "here to help" (and maybe you believe that).

But seriously:

• What was your debt at graduation?
• What was your minimum loan payment monthly? (basically pays interest only)
• How many podiatry schools were there when you graduated?

The answers to those questions for today's podiatry grads are:

• 400k (even more interest if they do fellowship)
• 1.5k
• Eleven

The older generation is quite out of touch with the realities of today's grads. That is very evident from your reciting how to market oneself, be paient, take call, lecture to nursing homes, etc. The solid DPM hospital jobs are rare and/or often in the middle of nowhere, and most MSG and ortho group jobs are just slightly improved versions of podiatry assocaite jobs. The debt burden and the huge number of DPMs coming out is what has changed. Making $100k or paying minimums on loans is somewhat ok when loans were $100k or less and banks were loaning to DPMs to start or buy an office. Those things are much different.

People don't want to wait 10 years after graduation to start their life when they get out of residency at 30 years old with $400k debt. Sorry.
Debt is the most insidious form of slavery. Poverty demoralizes. A man in debt is so far a slave. You can't just optimism your way out of debt.
Do what you can to limit the bad residencies and unnecessary schools. The USA population has gone up 17% in the last 25yrs... number of pod schools has gone up 38% in same span... and USA pop growth will stagnate soon, like all other first world countries. Pod tuition has gone up probably about 200-300% in that 25yr timespan. Do the math.

 

[newfeet]

I understand that medicine is expensive, I have a child that is a first year resident. I also had to buy into a practice after being in practice for only 2 years for $250,000 dollars, which I had no idea how I was going to come up with the money with three kids and loads of debt.

Yes, some salaries are 100K or less, but I would say try to negotiate for a production based salary. It is better for the employer and it is better for you. It can be very scary to work off of production when you are first starting out, but if you work hard you get rewarded.

Get out into the community and get to know people. Talk to doctors in the area. Give a speech at the local community center. Get on call at your hospital. Do hospital rounds. Take the time to talk to the nurses and the aides and the housekeepers, etc. You will build a practice and you will make good money.

Also not everything has to be surgery based. 85% or more of my practice is NOT surgery. I treat lots of wounds. I have tons of plantar fasciitis and Achilles Tendonitis in my practice. I have coached a lot of middle school teams and I have lots of injured athletes who are past players of mine or from other teams that I see.

I get it that debt is huge. Pay it back on an income driven plan and look to start out slow. In a few years, you will be making better money and have the ability to pay more of it back. The vast majority of us do not have any influence into what it cost to get into the profession but we can't change the past. Also if you don't want to work for someone, look to buy someone out, often they can help you out in the buyout process. then you are the boss with an intact system, employees and equipment and you will be on the insurance plans, etc.

Talk to a hospital system and become employed by them. Get in touch with a multispecialty group and convince them to hire you. There are tons of options available for you. Take the time, make the effort. You will be rewarded.

I can say I’m not worried about the past. It is what it is. But if someone ask me if I would do it again I would always say no. I have a job at a medical school. I have assistant professor as a job title. I scratched and clawed for that ****. 100s of applications and 1000s of emails. That should not be a thing any healthcare professional should need to do.

Funny thing about all of this… I should be satisfied with podiatry because I didn’t have to change my medical school essay when I applied to podiatry school. My essay was about a family member who lost their foot due to the diabetes and that’s why I wanted to be a doctor to help others like my family. I fulfilled my goal. Instead I’m annoyed that the job market is bs.

 

[poddocdpm]

Did you just really compare 2023 pay and debt to 1993?

Is today April 1st?

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. As an example, my starting yearly salary in 1996 was about 40% or less of my student loan debt. My spouse was similar, except he had more debt, so say about 35%. We had 2 kids in daycare and times were definitely lean. By today's standards, 35% of $300,000 debt is $105,000 salary. I realize there are some who make less than that, but most new grads are making more. Just a percentage comparison. It wasn't easy when we finished either. That being said, student debt for EVERYONE should be less, education should be cheaper and we would ALL be happy. Just pointing out it was tough back then as well. FWIW, all allopathic medical schools are expensive as well. Also FWIW, our local ortho group just hired another DPM (yes, surgical) and they are being paid around what a family practitioner makes at the major medical center in my area.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. As an example, my starting yearly salary in 1996 was about 40% or less of my student loan debt. My spouse was similar, except he had more debt, so say about 35%. We had 2 kids in daycare and times were definitely lean. By today's standards, 35% of $300,000 debt is $105,000 salary. I realize there are some who make less than that, but most new grads are making more. Just a percentage comparison. It wasn't easy when we finished either. That being said, student debt for EVERYONE should be less, education should be cheaper and we would ALL be happy. Just pointing out it was tough back then as well. FWIW, all allopathic medical schools are expensive as well. Also FWIW, our local ortho group just hired another DPM (yes, surgical) and they are being paid around what a family practitioner makes at the major medical center in my area.

bet the DPM was fellowship trained. So he actually did 12 years of education with 1 of pure b*tch work

 

[poddocdpm]

bet the DPM was fellowship trained. So he actually did 12 years of education with 1 of pure b*tch work

nope. 2 year residency

 

[Feli]

...our local ortho group just hired another DPM (yes, surgical) and they are being paid around what a family practitioner makes at the major medical center in my area.

Ok, and how much do the orthos in that ortho group earn?

Are you not seeing the comedy in your using that as an example of the opportunities in podiatry?

...do the training and debt and surgery and work of MD, get excellent training, then get very lucky to get paid lowest in the group and in line with a 9-5 lowest pay non-op, non-call family med MD.
I don't see how that suggests a strong ROI for DPM degree right now.

 

[Hybrocure]

Ok, and how much do the orthos in that ortho group earn?

Are you not seeing the comedy in your using that as an example of the opportunities in podiatry?
...do the training and debt and surgery and work of a doc, then get very lucky to get paid lowest in the group and in line with a 9-5 lowest pay MD.

I don't see how that suggests a strong ROI for DPM degree right now.

In their defense, even if it was F and A ortho a big factor in ortho pay is call too. FA orthos where I trained were still doing hip arthroplasties on the weekend. They earn more and should

 

[Feli]

In their defense, even if it was F and A ortho a big factor in ortho pay is call too. FA orthos where I trained were still doing hip arthroplasties on the weekend. They earn more and should

I get it... most employed DPMs make less than PA/NP.
Top surgical employed DPMs, as he tried to point to, make about what FP or Peds, etc do.

I don't think that screams "amazing" for the ROI for the schooling, though. DPMs take call, do surgery, and everything else.

In my eyes, his example just shows the incredible saturation makes the top jobs hard to get, underpaid for DPM relative to MDs. That's no secret.
A surgical DPM should be able to find jobs as easily and get paid in line with ENT, uro, OB, derm, and other mostly outpt proc/surg specialists... and maybe we would, if we weren't highly saturated in any area.

 

[Pronation]

That being said, student debt for EVERYONE should be less, education should be cheaper and we would ALL be happy. Just pointing out it was tough back then as well

Cool story and thanks for pointing out the crappy ROI in podiatry. Big shocker that admissions are plummeting when people see the TREMENDOUSLY better ROI with RN/PA/NP etc.

 

[Feli]

Bunch of first time posters promoting podiatry. Nothing suspicious about that.

Look at it the other way:

If big wigs (or at least ppl pretending to be) are taking their time to fluff up podiatry and tell their stories on SDN, then they must realize there is a MAJOR issue with unfilled seat/apps at the unnecessary new schools, pre-health students seeing the realities of the questionable job market and ROI for DPM degree, DPMs leaving APMA to put that money on their loans instead, and other trends they see as "concerning" to the status quo.

That's how change gets done.

 

[heybrother]

The sort of people who don't understand why podiatry is crashing and burning are the same sort of people who would think they could save it by coming here posting that it is amazing.

 

[dtrack22]

I scratched and clawed for that ****. 100s of applications and 1000s of emails. That should not be a thing any healthcare professional should need to do.

No other healthcare professional has to do this. In fact, it is quite the opposite. They are turning down emails from recruiters on a regular basis

By today's standards, 35% of $300,000 debt is $105,000 salary. I realize there are some who make less than that, but most new grads are making more.

Most new grads do not make more than that. Even ACFAS surveys demonstrate this. And now let’s talk about how much even $120k is worth today compared to what $80-100k was worth as recently as 5 years ago, let alone 20-30 years ago.

FWIW, all allopathic medical schools are expensive as well. Also FWIW, our local ortho group just hired another DPM (yes, surgical) and they are being paid around what a family practitioner makes at the major medical center in my area.

FWIW allopathic graduates don’t come out of any of their programs without numerous opportunities to make a minimum of $200k (even Peds) and any medical speciality and all surgical specialities are looking at $400k-700k right out of residency.

Also, FWIW a DPM working for an ortho group and getting paid like a family medicine doctor proves everyone else’s point (as @Feli already pointed out). How out of touch does one have to be to make that an argument FOR our profession and the mythical abundant opportunities?

I live in a small metro and a local DPM was abruptly fired. Literally can’t get a job anywhere in the area (and I’m talking a 3 state radius) and has to open up his own practice now just to be able to stay near children. I’ve been through the podiatry job market recently. I sincerely hope all of our new posters from the APMA BOT are forced to experience it in one way or another. They are so out of touch it’s comical.

But for the regulars, the thing to remember is that these folks will be gone shortly, so we don’t have to whine about them dodging questions, or laugh at how their posts prove many of our points for much longer.

 

[Boba Foot]

Nothing irritates me more than the fake numbers older podiatrists like to throw out comparing student debt and attending pay now vs. 30 years ago. So here are some numbers.

In 1990, the semester tuition for podiatry school was $15,143. (Average graduate and first-professional tuition and required fees in degree-granting institutions, by first-professional field of study and control of institution: 1988-89 through 2009-10)

I can't find an average of pod school tuition today, but according to an AACPM pamphlet, it appears the average is around $40,000 a semester. (College Information Book)

So 8 years of pod school tuition in 1990 wound run one $121,144. 8 years of pod school tuition today wound run one $320,000. So pod school tuition in thirty years has just about tripled.

I cannot find a statistic regarding average podiatrist base pay from 1990, but the older pods like to throw around the $60k number so I'll go with that. From personal experience in the job market a year ago, I can say that base pay today can run from $80k to about $120k, so let's call it $100k. Let's assume that the typical 30% collections pay model existed 1990 as it does today. Reimbursement for many surgeries have decreased since the 90's but office reimbursement might have increased to keep up with inflation. I'm not sure on this though. Either way, let's assume that reimbursement and the 30% production pay hasn't changed much since 1990. This tells us that entry level pod residency grad income has risen roughly $40k a year in 30 years (83% increase) versus student debt which has risen about $200k (165% increase).

Tuition in 1990 was roughly two years worth of base pay in 1990 ($121k to $60k). Tuition in 2023 is roughly three and a half years worth of base pay ($320k to $100k). Thus, assuming that student debt remains constant and doesn't go up with interest (which it doesn't), and even though those debt numbers don't even include cost of living borrowed through student loans, it would take almost twice the amount of time to pay off loans today than it would in 1990 if paid at the same rate. Again, this number is low-balled because it doesn't factor in any sort of interest with loans, but I've had two beers and I suck at math, so I'm not even going to try to quantify interest in these numbers.

TLDR; those two say "student loans are more now but pay was less then" are very disingenuous in using that statement.

 

[pod squad]

This forum has been very telling today. The only people who are optimistic about more schools opening and podiatry's future are the ones who have either 'made it' (good for you, you are the VAST minority), or those who stand to directly gain from the continued glut of new grads. You sold your practice to private equity for a nice payday and probably shares of stock in the company. I would (and hopefully will) do the same thing someday.

But let's not pretend this is anything other than dog eat dog, eating our young, predatory behavior.

 

[deleted1093615]

As a current podiatry school student I have just started shadowing. I really do think the actual practice of podiatry is pretty cool. The more DPM’s especially young ones I talk to tho it seems that the 100k job offers are very very real as well as the 300-400k debt load. It would be so refreshing to hear a leader in the profession at least ACKNOWLEDGE that there is a saturation issue instead of constantly hearing about a ”student recruitment crisis”. The marketing that podiatry school recruiters do is somewhat insidious. many classmates do not believe me when I tell them that a lot of residency grads do not make more than 100k their first job.
its hard to want to talk about and promote podiatry when i Think bringing more students in to the profession would damage my chances and opportunities down the road.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

The marketing that podiatry school recruiters do is somewhat insidious.

Their job is just to get you to write that first tuition check. Whether you can pay it back is not on their agenda.

To any ridiculous new posters coming here, then please explain the attrition rate being so ridiculous that 1 in 4 students that enter Barry wont graduate. Remember that schools tuition cost is the highest in the first two years paying off the physical school operational costs compared to the end when you are shipped off to be an indentured servant as an extern but still have to pay 'tuition.'

 

[Boba Foot]

many classmates do not believe me when I tell them that a lot of residency grads do not make more than 100k their first job.

Of course, no one wants to hear that after 4 years of school and 3 years of residency that $100k is the end result. That's brutally demoralizing. I would be in denial of that too if I read this forum much as a student.

 

[DYK343]

I know my graduating residents are starting at much higher salaries with legitimate bonus opportunities. My employer’s starting salary is much higher than you’ve mentioned as well.

You're training residents at a great residency. If we were hiring at our hospital and your grad was looking for a job they would be strongly recommended by me because I know they are well trained. You're a great teacher and I learned a lot from you myself personally. Im not lying or baiting you when I give you compliments. I have A LOT of respect for you.

But that opportunity is not the same for ~50% of our grads. 50% (or more...) of our grads dont have the training you provide.

Higher education costs are ridiculous across the board, look at the undergraduate tuition for a school like Notre Dame.

Comparing to private school tuition is not a good comparisson. University of Indiana students (in state) in all regards have just as good undergrad training as ND students at a fraction of the cost.

At the osteopathic schools with podiatry schools, the osteopathic students pay about $10,000 more per semester and 70%+ of them are going into primary care with lower income potential than a DPM, especially taking into account ancillary income sources like surgery center shares.

In all respect I feel you're disconnected. Biased with your personal grads connections and training. PCPs/PAs/NPs are HOT right now. They can get a job anywhere. Most podiatrists out of residency have to beg for a decent job. I feel fortunate that I received the training and skills to excel but so many in our profession do not.

I ask you again, What do you think is the best solution to the over saturation issues and job prospects that new grads are facing?

The poor job market for our new grads is the root cause of unrest on this forum.

Its obvious that there was a meeting to bring attention to this forum. I welcome this discussion. But the elephant in the room will still always be the same. What of our grads? Where are the jobs? What justifies the time and tuition? Are SDN posters monsters or just pointing out the realities of the profession?

Hard questions require hard answers.

 

[Hybrocure]

I’d wager about 70% of new grads are getting entry jobs paying 120k or less. This is not backed up by any data but rather how it panned out for my graduating class and people I knew. Now the thing is, there’s often a large difference in salary between a new grad and a 5+ year grad in podiatry. Nearly all the people you will see in leadership positions have been practicing to a point where they’re making comfortable salaries because they’ve been practicing for x amount of years.

Rather than view this as “podiatry doesn’t pay well” it should be shaped more to that new grads shouldn’t expect high paying jobs when they finish residency. It’s hard to understand as a student because everyone you’re externing with or rotating with attending wise has likely already been established and practicing to a point where they earn good incomes. Many of the new posters in this thread are not wrong when they say put in the work and time and you’ll do well. The thing is, when the first couple years of that time are spent not even being able to pay your loans interest down, there is a problem. Furthermore, making that large salary is often gatekept behind a board that is not welcoming to those who have had the misfortune to work those lower paying jobs or those who were undertrained in residency, basically sentencing them to a lifetime of crap and poor chances to dig themselves out of their current situation - regardless of even whether they’re surgical or nonsurgical!

 

[wakaflocka88]

I understand that medicine is expensive, I have a child that is a first year resident. I also had to buy into a practice after being in practice for only 2 years for $250,000 dollars, which I had no idea how I was going to come up with the money with three kids and loads of debt.

Yes, some salaries are 100K or less, but I would say try to negotiate for a production based salary. It is better for the employer and it is better for you. It can be very scary to work off of production when you are first starting out, but if you work hard you get rewarded.

Get out into the community and get to know people. Talk to doctors in the area. Give a speech at the local community center. Get on call at your hospital. Do hospital rounds. Take the time to talk to the nurses and the aides and the housekeepers, etc. You will build a practice and you will make good money.

Also not everything has to be surgery based. 85% or more of my practice is NOT surgery. I treat lots of wounds. I have tons of plantar fasciitis and Achilles Tendonitis in my practice. I have coached a lot of middle school teams and I have lots of injured athletes who are past players of mine or from other teams that I see.

I get it that debt is huge. Pay it back on an income driven plan and look to start out slow. In a few years, you will be making better money and have the ability to pay more of it back. The vast majority of us do not have any influence into what it cost to get into the profession but we can't change the past. Also if you don't want to work for someone, look to buy someone out, often they can help you out in the buyout process. then you are the boss with an intact system, employees and equipment and you will be on the insurance plans, etc.

Talk to a hospital system and become employed by them. Get in touch with a multispecialty group and convince them to hire you. There are tons of options available for you. Take the time, make the effort. You will be rewarded.

With all due respect BobSage, I am 4 years out from training at a strong program. I can assure you what you said above is not close to the current reality.

My first job I barely made $60k ish take home after taxes. I’m fortunate student loans have been frozen otherwise I would have been toiling away for over a year and getting by somehow. Sure I was selective on my geography. Dtrack already stated above - why doesn’t every single practicing podiatrist in the entire country browse job websites and see how abundant the jobs are? Don’t want to face the truth?

I’m extremely, extremely, extremely lucky to have found a job that pays very well and I’m able to utilize the full extent of my training. I like what I do, I like my patients, I like my colleagues I work with, we respect each others’ skill set but I will never ever recommend this profession based on the ROI.

Even after thousands of comments in various threads over the past 6 months, none of us has seen or heard a single professional org member address the poor job market. Why?

Why is that none of the new posters that joined today commented on the poor job market?

 

[pod squad]

Dtrack already stated above - why doesn’t every single practicing podiatrist in the entire country browse job websites and see how abundant the jobs are? Don’t want to face the truth?

Anyone who 'attended' the ACFAS Virtual Job Fair earlier this year saw this VERY clearly. There were literally 5 employers. FIVE. For the whole country. And this was billed as a terrific networking opportunity by our pre-eminent governing body. Embarrassing for everyone involved.

 

[dtrack22]

Their job is just to get you to write that first tuition check. Whether you can pay it back is not on their agenda.

To any ridiculous new posters coming here, then please explain the attrition rate being so ridiculous that 1 in 4 students that enter Barry wont graduate. Remember that schools tuition cost is the highest in the first two years paying off the physical school operational costs compared to the end when you are shipped off to be an indentured servant as an extern but still have to pay 'tuition.'

OCPM used to enroll 120 students and had an average graduating class in the mid to high 80’s.

Leadership will defend CPME when it comes to opening up new schools, but they’ve had the power to make stricter credentialing requirements and lower enrollment caps at the most problematic schools. But they don’t.

Don’t forget most of the folks joining us for the next few days worked in a time where orthotics were reimbursed, bunions paid $1200, deductibles were routinely $250, most plans had out of network benefits, and no commercial insurance reimbursed less than Medicare. Heck, they were more likely to be 2x Medicare rates.

They are grifters.

 

[dtrack22]

Hard questions require hard answers.

They never stick around long enough to answer any of the hard questions.

Dtrack already stated above - why doesn’t every single practicing podiatrist in the entire country browse job websites and see how abundant the jobs are? Don’t want to face the truth?

Pay close attention to these threads. They also never quote/respond to my posts or questions. Our ABFAS friend tried to cherry pick some stuff but when called out on it he disappeared without answering.