Is credit card churning worth the hassle

[rick roller pump]

How many cards a year are you big churners going through? In the past 6 years, between my wife and I we have signed up for the following cards with estimated sign on bonus:
Venture ($750)
Venture X ($750)
Delta gold ($500)
Delta plat ($700)
Southwest ($800)
United ($500)
Savor ($500)
Fidelity ($300)
Regional airline ($300)
Amazon ($250)
Might be missing one or two
Again, these sign on bonuses are just estimations and do not factor in yearly fees or other benefits received.
So total sign on bonus of over $5000 or approximately $1000 per year.
It sounds like compared to the big churners, these are rookie numbers though.

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[dchz]

Favorite resources for getting up-to-date? We massively benefitted from our lite-churning in med school (covered for all residency airfare, hotels if applicable, rental cars, and a number of vacation hotel stays. Not to mention the southwest companion pass which was magical). Dropped it completely.

Planning several international trips in the coming years and my wife and I were just talking about going back into it right before this thread popped up.

Was gonna DM you only, but my reply got long and it might give the forum some insight.

Two phases to the game : earning and redeeming, or churning and burning.



For earning, I try to amass Amex and chase points as much as I can. Eg. One year I would have 2 sign up bonus from personal plat and business plat for both me and my wife.



My default is chase Inks gravy train for all our spend and if we have big bills due I'd sign up for an Amex big bonus in between.



The side effect of having all these Amex cards are the housekeeping you'd have to do to use up all the credits. I have about $2-3k of sw credits from the converted airline credits from the amexes. So I don't even churn SW cards. As I don't fly enough to even use up my travel bank.





For redeeming, it is much harder to do. This is what took a lot of the time sink early on - trying to understand how to book the legs across the ocean for a good price. For a while, I would just try to find tickets without booking them, just so I'd be good at the different awards. I use frequent miler podcast to keep uptodate, but it's the equivalent of CME after finishing residency, the initial mock booking practice is the hard step.



For example, my wife is from Taiwan, I live in DFW. There are no direct flights from DFW to TPE (also you're gonna get good at airport codes, I could be a travel agent if this anes thing didn't work out).



The several ways I could get across the ocean economically with points (all of these are lay flat business class or better):



IAH - TPE on EVA: Houston is close to DFW but the availability of this is harder and would require EVA points, which is hard to get.



SFO - TPE on EVA: 3 flights per day bookable through Chase points (transfered to air Canada aeroplane, you just know stuff like this after a while). This is ok but now days they only release one business availability 360 days out, so you'd have to book way in advance if you want two seats.



LAX - TPE on EVA (also SEA - TPE, or YVR - TPE): same as above but much less in availability.



DFW - HND on JAL: availability of at least two business classes 355 days out pretty consistently. Sometimes they would have JAL first class available closer to the flight date. I could book this with AA miles (much harder to earn) or other one world partners (I use Cathay, which is a transfer partner from AMEX). This is also very competitive around April (due to cherry blossom season) and the summer (kids out of school).



SFO - TPE on CI (China airlines, which is really a Taiwanese airline, it's funny if you know the politics). This is pretty consistently available for multiple seats. It's pretty impossible to get China airlines points, but I can book the China airlines flight with the flying blue reward program, which is a transfer partner for Chase, Amex, Citi, and Capital one. This is the route I decided to fly for next year when we will go on a 2-3 week long Asia trip. I transferred 215k points from Chase to flying blue, there was a 25% transfer bonus so I got 267k flying blue points.



Then I would buy us tickets to get from DFW to SFO, either with cash or points.



To be able to pull this off, I had to have the knowledge and the points. Currently between me and my wife we have around 600k chase points, 400k Amex points, and 200k Hyatt points. I also have around 350k stuck in Cathay as I had to cancel a booking.



Yes this is very complex and very difficult. But it's no more difficult than med school or some of the intense gaming I do sometimes. So it's worth it to me, as the cash value to book the tickets I need to go to Asian next year for 3 people for the flights alone wound be around $40k. The booking and the points earning took may be less than 10 hours of my time and I would only probably need to spend $3-4k on the taxes and fees and connecting flights.

For perspective, in the time it took me to type this out, I could have applied to 4-5 credit cards or in the same amount of time called and cancelled 1-2. My credit score with 12+ inquiries is 810+.

 

[anaesthetic]

Was gonna DM you only, but my reply got long and it might give the forum some insight.

Two phases to the game : earning and redeeming, or churning and burning.



For earning, I try to amass Amex and chase points as much as I can. Eg. One year I would have 2 sign up bonus from personal plat and business plat for both me and my wife.



My default is chase Inks gravy train for all our spend and if we have big bills due I'd sign up for an Amex big bonus in between.



The side effect of having all these Amex cards are the housekeeping you'd have to do to use up all the credits. I have about $2-3k of sw credits from the converted airline credits from the amexes. So I don't even churn SW cards. As I don't fly enough to even use up my travel bank.





For redeeming, it is much harder to do. This is what took a lot of the time sink early on - trying to understand how to book the legs across the ocean for a good price. For a while, I would just try to find tickets without booking them, just so I'd be good at the different awards. I use frequent miler podcast to keep uptodate, but it's the equivalent of CME after finishing residency, the initial mock booking practice is the hard step.



For example, my wife is from Taiwan, I live in DFW. There are no direct flights from DFW to TPE (also you're gonna get good at airport codes, I could be a travel agent if this anes thing didn't work out).



The several ways I could get across the ocean economically with points (all of these are lay flat business class or better):



IAH - TPE on EVA: Houston is close to DFW but the availability of this is harder and would require EVA points, which is hard to get.



SFO - TPE on EVA: 3 flights per day bookable through Chase points (transfered to air Canada aeroplane, you just know stuff like this after a while). This is ok but now days they only release one business availability 360 days out, so you'd have to book way in advance if you want two seats.



LAX - TPE on EVA (also SEA - TPE, or YVR - TPE): same as above but much less in availability.



DFW - HND on JAL: availability of at least two business classes 355 days out pretty consistently. Sometimes they would have JAL first class available closer to the flight date. I could book this with AA miles (much harder to earn) or other one world partners (I use Cathay, which is a transfer partner from AMEX). This is also very competitive around April (due to cherry blossom season) and the summer (kids out of school).



SFO - TPE on CI (China airlines, which is really a Taiwanese airline, it's funny if you know the politics). This is pretty consistently available for multiple seats. It's pretty impossible to get China airlines points, but I can book the China airlines flight with the flying blue reward program, which is a transfer partner for Chase, Amex, Citi, and Capital one. This is the route I decided to fly for next year when we will go on a 2-3 week long Asia trip. I transferred 215k points from Chase to flying blue, there was a 25% transfer bonus so I got 267k flying blue points.



Then I would buy us tickets to get from DFW to SFO, either with cash or points.



To be able to pull this off, I had to have the knowledge and the points. Currently between me and my wife we have around 600k chase points, 400k Amex points, and 200k Hyatt points. I also have around 350k stuck in Cathay as I had to cancel a booking.



Yes this is very complex and very difficult. But it's no more difficult than med school or some of the intense gaming I do sometimes. So it's worth it to me, as the cash value to book the tickets I need to go to Asian next year for 3 people for the flights alone wound be around $60k. The booking and the points earning took may be less than 10 hours of my time and I would only probably need to spend $3-4k ok the taxes and fees and connecting flights.

 

[rick roller pump]

Was gonna DM you only, but my reply got long and it might give the forum some insight.

Two phases to the game : earning and redeeming, or churning and burning.



For earning, I try to amass Amex and chase points as much as I can. Eg. One year I would have 2 sign up bonus from personal plat and business plat for both me and my wife.



My default is chase Inks gravy train for all our spend and if we have big bills due I'd sign up for an Amex big bonus in between.



The side effect of having all these Amex cards are the housekeeping you'd have to do to use up all the credits. I have about $2-3k of sw credits from the converted airline credits from the amexes. So I don't even churn SW cards. As I don't fly enough to even use up my travel bank.





For redeeming, it is much harder to do. This is what took a lot of the time sink early on - trying to understand how to book the legs across the ocean for a good price. For a while, I would just try to find tickets without booking them, just so I'd be good at the different awards. I use frequent miler podcast to keep uptodate, but it's the equivalent of CME after finishing residency, the initial mock booking practice is the hard step.



For example, my wife is from Taiwan, I live in DFW. There are no direct flights from DFW to TPE (also you're gonna get good at airport codes, I could be a travel agent if this anes thing didn't work out).



The several ways I could get across the ocean economically with points (all of these are lay flat business class or better):



IAH - TPE on EVA: Houston is close to DFW but the availability of this is harder and would require EVA points, which is hard to get.



SFO - TPE on EVA: 3 flights per day bookable through Chase points (transfered to air Canada aeroplane, you just know stuff like this after a while). This is ok but now days they only release one business availability 360 days out, so you'd have to book way in advance if you want two seats.



LAX - TPE on EVA (also SEA - TPE, or YVR - TPE): same as above but much less in availability.



DFW - HND on JAL: availability of at least two business classes 355 days out pretty consistently. Sometimes they would have JAL first class available closer to the flight date. I could book this with AA miles (much harder to earn) or other one world partners (I use Cathay, which is a transfer partner from AMEX). This is also very competitive around April (due to cherry blossom season) and the summer (kids out of school).



SFO - TPE on CI (China airlines, which is really a Taiwanese airline, it's funny if you know the politics). This is pretty consistently available for multiple seats. It's pretty impossible to get China airlines points, but I can book the China airlines flight with the flying blue reward program, which is a transfer partner for Chase, Amex, Citi, and Capital one. This is the route I decided to fly for next year when we will go on a 2-3 week long Asia trip. I transferred 215k points from Chase to flying blue, there was a 25% transfer bonus so I got 267k flying blue points.



Then I would buy us tickets to get from DFW to SFO, either with cash or points.



To be able to pull this off, I had to have the knowledge and the points. Currently between me and my wife we have around 600k chase points, 400k Amex points, and 200k Hyatt points. I also have around 350k stuck in Cathay as I had to cancel a booking.



Yes this is very complex and very difficult. But it's no more difficult than med school or some of the intense gaming I do sometimes. So it's worth it to me, as the cash value to book the tickets I need to go to Asian next year for 3 people for the flights alone wound be around $60k. The booking and the points earning took may be less than 10 hours of my time and I would only probably need to spend $3-4k ok the taxes and fees and connecting flights.

Wow I am actually planning to go to Taiwan at the end of this year. Currently have about 180k capital one points. I could exchange 2 cap1 to 1.5 EVA points, but I can't seem to find out how much an EVA point is even worth (If it's only worth 1 penny then this is of course a bad exchange rate). Their website doesn't list the cost of things in points. Any strategies you recommend? Is 180k points even enough or should I keep saving? I am content flying premium economy. Thanks for your great post.

 

[dchz]

View attachment 385147

I see it as:

 

[dchz]

Wow I am actually planning to go to Taiwan at the end of this year. Currently have about 180k capital one points. I could exchange 2 cap1 to 1.5 EVA points, but I can't seem to find out how much an EVA point is even worth (If it's only worth 1 penny then this is of course a bad exchange rate). Their website doesn't list the cost of things in points. Any strategies you recommend? Is 180k points even enough or should I keep saving? I am content flying premium economy. Thanks for your great post.

Where are you based? The IAH/ORD/JFK/YYZ - TPE routes are more expensive (80k EVA points) than the SFO/LAX/SEA/YVR routes (75K EVA points). I think ~150k (EVA points, you have 135k EVA points) should be enough for round trip for 1, or two people one way from the West Coast.

If you have EVA points and speak Mandarin, this should be an easy booking if you call the Taipei office. Their website is kinda crappy to operate but you can figure it out if you have patience.

 

[DrN2O]

DFW - HND on JAL: availability of at least two business classes 355 days out pretty consistently. Sometimes they would have JAL first class available closer to the flight date. I could book this with AA miles (much harder to earn) or other one world partners (I use Cathay, which is a transfer partner from AMEX). This is also very competitive around April (due to cherry blossom season) and the summer (kids out of school).

This is especially impressive flying business with kids.

The common barriers I have encountered
1. Kids: their school calendar, obviously the numbers, and their dead weight during travel and hotels. Do you really want to shlep toddlers a day and half to Maldives (with stopovers, sure lounges) when they are equally happy digging on the beach of Maui 6h away? Like someone mentioned earlier, two adults both spending/earning on multiple CC eco systems and traveling together are usually most optimal.

2. Flexibility: loyalty to airlines limits your ability to get the best deal/itinerary. There are transfer partners/alliance partners, but using award flights require more than a 10 minute search.

3. Convenience: Do I want to look for award flights on United, transfer my AMEX points to Air Canada, and book the flight there? I tried, not for me. Book 360 days in advance? I can't even decide what for dinner tonight.

4. Value: people conflate rack rate with their CC points. I would never pay $15 for a hospital acetaminophen, does that mean I win with my health insurance? If I would never pay for a business class tix to Fiji in the raining season, how should I calculate the cpp? Youtube is full of people flying to exotic locales just to get 20+ cpp, but I have neither the time or inclination at this moment.

5. Goal: unless you are committed and consistently earn high points, 90% of the rest are saving up points for ONE blowout, inspirational trip. I bet you need to get 300-500K pt annually to make this a habit (dchz appears to have double that). Unless you enjoy the process (dchz clearly does or have come to be), I rather work a couple of more shifts for those $6K of saving.

This is the most enjoyable Reddit post on this topic (read it when you are on bypass or doing a ventral hernia repair):

 

[sloh]

This is the most enjoyable Reddit post on this topic (read it when you are on bypass or doing a ventral hernia repair):

Awesome read haha (The middle class trade time for money, and save the money. The rich trade time and money at the best exchange rates possible for more time and money):

You’re thrilled to see 4 cpp with British Airways, so you book it. But you just doubled your travel time for a couple of low-quality airline meal kits, and spent the entire day worrying about your connection time. Plus, you’ve exhausted 20,000 points for the privilege. But at least you got more value...

You’re on #TeamTravel, so you explain to your partner that you just got 2 cpp on a “cozy” place in Puerto Rico. Your partner doesn’t know what “cpp” means, but looks forward to an awesome trip. Predictably, it sucks. You two fight repeatedly, and break up soon after your return. I hope your next partner understands the value of maximizing your superficial company currency.

Some will point out that, perhaps, both of these are bad redemptions. You’re right. But I picked an extreme example for a reason. How many times have you picked a hotel based purely on redemption value, even when you would otherwise prefer several others in the same area? How many times have you selected inconvenient dates to secure better redemption value? You're guilty, too.
You checked various dates and hotels, hours and hours at a time. You investigated flights across airlines, across dates, cross-referencing point valuations. You checked back almost every day to see how these valuations changed. You aggregated various combinations to see which set would be the best altogether. You collaborated with your travel partner, running by some of your best findings. Weeks later, you confidently decided to book at 3 cpp. Great?

Imagine an artist who sells paintings for $1,000 each. Each painting takes 100 hours. The raw materials cost around $50 per painting. Did the artist make $950? Sort of. But, assuming no other costs or taxes, the artist really only made $9.5/hour — not great.

Likewise, your 3 cpp is great, perhaps representing a $950 premium over a 2 cpp redemption. But if you spend 100 extra hours on this, then you’ve made the same $9.5/hour — not great. If you spend 10 extra hours on this, then you’ve made $95/hour — definitely better. If you spend just 1 extra hour on this, then you’ve made $950/hour — outstanding.

If you normally make $10 per hour, perhaps all three of these investments are worthwhile. But if you’re a high earner, perhaps your time is better invested elsewhere: earning more money elsewhere to spend on less contrived itineraries.

In short, there is a diminishing return on procuring redemption value. It’s generally not worth a ton of time to improve your redemption rates moderately, but it will almost certainly depend on your alternative earning power and the marginal improvement to your redemption rate.
Letting Banks Run Your Life

For your honeymoon? Your wife really wanted to go to Tokyo. Instead, you went to some middling Hyatt chateau in some country you never heard of because you got 8 cpp. You booked a 2 am flight because you got 6 cpp in first class. You explained all this to her, but she just does not get it!

For your wedding? Your wife really wanted to stay at this picturesque villa by your venue, but you dutifully informed her that you would entertain no such proposition — that villa only earns 1.2 cpp and you KNOW you can do better! You let her know that the achromatic “1 King” rooms at the local Hyatt Place are just as cool. She was mad at you for some reason, but you are certain that she’ll apologize once she sees how the front desk warmly welcomes you as a Discoverist.

Don’t be that guy. Live your life, and use your points wisely in the natural course of living that life. If you’re undecided between a couple of flights, dates, or hotels — point valuations can be a great determining factor. But, please, control your own destiny. Don’t let Capital One or Chase dictate your travels based on “fake” corporate currencies designed entirely to build loyalty and profits.

 

[rick roller pump]

Where are you based? The IAH/ORD/JFK/YYZ - TPE routes are more expensive (80k EVA points) than the SFO/LAX/SEA/YVR routes (75K EVA points). I think ~150k (EVA points, you have 135k EVA points) should be enough for round trip for 1, or two people one way from the West Coast.

If you have EVA points and speak Mandarin, this should be an easy booking if you call the Taipei office. Their website is kinda crappy to operate but you can figure it out if you have patience.

Thank you. I would be most likely going through SFO, so this is good to know.

 

[DrN2O]

But remember if u family. It’s super tricky to start redeeming 4x biz or first class seats

So the credit card games work better with 1-2 seats for air fare.

Yes, the dream is when the kids get older, we sip drinks in biz, and they can eat free pretzels in basic economy.

 

[dchz]

Thank you. I would be most likely going through SFO, so this is good to know.

SFO - TPE has the most award availability ever.

Starlux (bookable with Alaska miles)
EVA has 3 flights per day.
China Airlines has most seats available to award bookings.

 

[dchz]

3. Convenience: Do I want to look for award flights on United, transfer my AMEX points to Air Canada, and book the flight there? I tried, not for me. Book 360 days in advance? I can't even decide what for dinner tonight.

4. Value: people conflate rack rate with their CC points. I would never pay $15 for a hospital acetaminophen, does that mean I win with my health insurance? If I would never pay for a business class tix to Fiji in the raining season, how should I calculate the cpp? Youtube is full of people flying to exotic locales just to get 20+ cpp, but I have neither the time or inclination at this moment.

I agree with a lot of what you said. And I'm certainly not gonna try to convince you to become my competition for these award flights.

On point #3, for multiple week international trips you most likely have to plan in advance anyways. So it's much more palatable to book early. United is a direct transfer of Chase, so I would save your Amex points for something else.

Point #4. I would actually pay cash for the ticket. That's why I know how much they cost. My plan was to pay cash for tickets that I can't get on awards. Just been lucky/prepared so far and I haven't had to pay cash on the most efficient routes possible in terms of layovers.

But all the points you bring up are very valid and this hobby comes with a pretty good time sink up front.

I'm cheap and I want nice experiences so I'm still doing it.

 

[dchz]

Yes, the dream is when the kids get older, we sip drinks in biz, and they can eat free pretzels in basic economy.

Same!

 

[Splenda88]

Why is traveling so expensive?

Trying to see if we (family of 4) can vacation 9-10 days in Italy in July and it seems like we might have to spend close to 20k.

 

[aneftp]

Why is traveling so expensive?

Trying to see if we (family of 4) can vacation 9-10 days in Italy in July and it seems like we might have to spend close to 20k.

Welcome to my world. And I don’t even fly first or business. I just tough it up and fly middle seat most of the time. 3 row across. I’m in the middle. Let spouse sit in aisle in the other row.

Each big vacation does cost 20k for a family of 4. That’s to be expected. $1000-1400 for economy seats x 4. Hotel is like $600-1000 a night. It all adds up.

That’s why I examined our travel expenses for the last 5 years and it’s close to 50k in travel. 2 big vacations each year can wipe out close to 40k alone. And I’m in Florida where we do a lot of mini get away as well. Those weekends are fairly cheap $1000-1500 usually. But the big vacations to put a dent in the vacation budget

So I fly as cheap as I can. But my hotel (or even cruise, we almost always do splurge for suites on cruises).

 

[makemoney2024]

if you just genuinely enjoy it go for it. if not there are other more fruitful ways save/earn a couple thousand extra a yaer

Hasn’t been TENS of thousands for me but it’s thousands.

 

[makemoney2024]

So I used to be VERY active on this forum... But about 2-3 years ago, I've been kinda disappeared.

Because I have spent all the free time that I used to spend on here to deep dive into churning circa 2021-2023.

I was late to the game, as those who churned 2016-2020 had a lot more bang for the buck due to gamification of the system.

To answer the OP question: worth is very subjective. We don't have all the same information and values.

To me, it's very well worth it. It takes about 10 mins to apply for a card and about 20-30 on the phone to cancel it. I've been getting pretty consistently 10% of my spend as points back (assuming 1 point = 1 cent). I just cancelled two cards as I was typing this. Rough estimate is that my current churning marginal earn rate is higher than my hourly rate as an anesthesiologist, as all it takes is to apply to a new card, switch it out in my wallet and repeat, it's probably 1 hour of marginal work from opening to cancelling.

I have never paid for a biz class ticket. But I've flown many legs on lay flat business class tickets. The advice I have is : ignorance is bliss.

At this point in my life, quitting churning is a luxury I cannot afford. My wife no longer wants anything less than lay-flat business if we are flying across an ocean (she's fine with upgrading to first class). I'm too filial to leave my mother in the back of the plane if she's coming along. I'm not quite at the 10MM in points but I'd say I'm at least half way there in the last 4 years. It's well worth it for me to switch a credit card every month or two.

How do you keep track of all of them? Spreadsheets?

 

[makemoney2024]

Why is traveling so expensive?

Trying to see if we (family of 4) can vacation 9-10 days in Italy in July and it seems like we might have to spend close to 20k.

Are you trying to travel business class and stay at a 5 star resort? Waiting to buy your tickets now for July is kind of late. I know because I book kind of late too but I travel alone. To answer your question, it’s high because of demand and because the taxes this country imposed for traveling.
It’s much cheaper to travel through Europe which chaps my ass.

 

[makemoney2024]

Welcome to my world. And I don’t even fly first or business. I just tough it up and fly middle seat most of the time. 3 row across. I’m in the middle. Let spouse sit in aisle in the other row.

Each big vacation does cost 20k for a family of 4. That’s to be expected. $1000-1400 for economy seats x 4. Hotel is like $600-1000 a night. It all adds up.

That’s why I examined our travel expenses for the last 5 years and it’s close to 50k in travel. 2 big vacations each year can wipe out close to 40k alone. And I’m in Florida where we do a lot of mini get away as well. Those weekends are fairly cheap $1000-1500 usually. But the big vacations to put a dent in the vacation budget

So I fly as cheap as I can. But my hotel (or even cruise, we almost always do splurge for suites on cruises).

For a $600 night hotel, what amenities do you get? Does this include free meals? Free WiFi? Free Alcohol?
What makes a hotel worth $600 a night?

 

[makemoney2024]

Well I booked a free trip to Aruba in December using my Capital one venture x and still have another free ticket I can purchase. That was the equivalent of $700. Capital one gives you $300 travel credit each year. And I got a sign up of 80-90k points I think. And they have free lounges in some of airports.

I have gotten two free flights in the past two years on my United. were they expensive points yes, but thats because I bought them about a month out. the card is only $95 a year. That was the equivalent of $1200. I fly a lot as a locums and therefore accrue points this way as well.

Got a companion pass that I have to use by years end on Delta and 200k points but that’s easy to use on Delta because of their expensive prices. That was a $250 a year card that I recently gave up but it gave you lots of perks like Free Global Entry and TSA recheck. This one may have been close to a wash.

Got about 100k points on my Chase Business Ink to use and those are transferable. The card itself is not expensive I think $100 a year.

Anyway not an expert but I am trying to play.

 

[aneftp]

For a $600 night hotel, what amenities do you get? Does this include free meals? Free WiFi? Free Alcohol?
What makes a hotel worth $600 a night?

That’s a basic hotel in say park city or vail. 350 sq feet.

Actually it cost me $932/night. Not a suite or anything

Air b b for entire house was 10k for 6 nights if I wanted it.

That’s how people do save. If they go with 6-8 people and split a house.

 

[Splenda88]

Are you trying to travel business class and stay at a 5 star resort? Waiting to buy your tickets now for July is kind of late. I know because I book kind of late too but I travel alone. To answer your question, it’s high because of demand and because the taxes this country imposed for traveling.
It’s much cheaper to travel through Europe which chaps my ass.

Economy, but we are a family of 4. We usually stay in 500+ sqft 4+ stars hotel room. Tickets itself to travel in July will cost ~6k for the 4 of us.

 

[makemoney2024]

Economy, but we are a family of 4. We usually stay in 500+ sqft 4+ stars hotel room. Tickets itself to travel in July will cost ~6k for the 4 of us.

Get cheaper hotels. 3+ stars.

 

[makemoney2024]

That’s a basic hotel in say park city or vail. 350 sq feet.

Actually it cost me $932/night. Not a suite or anything

Air b b for entire house was 10k for 6 nights if I wanted it.

That’s how people do save. If they go with 6-8 people and split a house.

Well no wonder your vacations are expensive. You are going to the most expensive places. I hear skiing in Europe is much much cheaper. Don’t know about hotels tho in the resorts.

 

[triggermaster]

I agree with a lot of what you said. And I'm certainly not gonna try to convince you to become my competition for these award flights.

On point #3, for multiple week international trips you most likely have to plan in advance anyways. So it's much more palatable to book early. United is a direct transfer of Chase, so I would save your Amex points for something else.

Point #4. I would actually pay cash for the ticket. That's why I know how much they cost. My plan was to pay cash for tickets that I can't get on awards. Just been lucky/prepared so far and I haven't had to pay cash on the most efficient routes possible in terms of layovers.

But all the points you bring up are very valid and this hobby comes with a pretty good time sink up front.

I'm cheap and I want nice experiences so I'm still doing it.

I haven’t started churning, but you guys did have me looking at what’s out there. The Amazon card isn’t worth churning but it’s worth keeping. 5% at Amazon and Whole Foods- I’ll take it!

 

[aneftp]

Well no wonder your vacations are expensive. You are going to the most expensive places. I hear skiing in Europe is much much cheaper. Don’t know about hotels tho in the resorts.

Yes. I’ve been skiing in Europe. Verbier and zermatt. It’s cheaper, relatively. Just the airfare is expensive to get there these days. Vail is super easy to ski compared to verbier which is more for die hards.

But my budget is roughly 50k for vacay.

But that’s why I do locums to make extra cash to spend it.

 

[Splenda88]

Get cheaper hotels. 3+ stars.

Lol... It's the only thing I will not compromise on.

I still drive a 15-yr old but I do not compromise on hotel stay when I travel.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

Yes. I’ve been skiing in Europe. Verbier and zermatt. It’s cheaper, relatively. Just the airfare is expensive to get there these days. Vail is super easy to ski compared to verbier which is more for die hards.

But my budget is roughly 50k for vacay.

But that’s why I do locums to make extra cash to spend it.

When I priced out skiing in Europe a few months ago it came out about the same if you have an Ikon/Epic pass or a bit cheaper if you

The difference flight costs seemed to balance out the lower hotel/lift costs in Europe.

The one wild card about Europe that I never ended up looking into is if you get injured need to make sure you have some sort of health coverage and plan to get back to the States. I’ve also read that the lift lines there are strangely uncivilized

 

[caligas]

When I priced out skiing in Europe a few months ago it came out about the same if you have an Ikon/Epic pass or a bit cheaper if you

The difference flight costs seemed to balance out the lower hotel/lift costs in Europe.

The one wild card about Europe that I never ended up looking into is if you get injured need to make sure you have some sort of health coverage and plan to get back to the States. I’ve also read that the lift lines there are strangely uncivilized

IDK about the lines but your are DEFINITELY more responsible for your own safety off piste vs US

 

[rick roller pump]

Never skiied in Europe but I heard they groom everything (even on powder day lol) and snow quality is worse. Just talked with my friends who went there (Switzerland I think) who said they significantly prefer the Rockies

 

[rick roller pump]

 

[makemoney2024]

Lol... It's the only thing I will not compromise on.

I still drive a 15-yr old but I do not compromise on hotel stay when I travel.

What’s a four star hotel? What does it get you? What are the amenities? I am Just curious. I travel for work and stay at 3 stars all the time. When I travel too.
What kinds of brands are the four stars?
Either way let’s remember that we are complaining of rich people problems. lol

 

[Splenda88]

What’s a four star hotel? What does it get you? What are the amenities? I am Just curious. I travel for work and stay at 3 stars all the time. When I travel too.
What kinds of brands are the four stars?
Either way let’s remember that we are complaining of rich people problems. lol

Agree.

We stayed in "Live by Loews" recently in Arlington TX, I thought it was the perfect hotel for an upper middle class family.

We also go to south FL multiple times a year and we usually stay at: Canopy by Hilton in downtown West Palm Beach.

I dont usually use amenities except valet parking. I usually look at neighborhood where these places are located and overall reviews etc...

The overall feel of a 3 vs 4-star hotel is different.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Never skiied in Europe but I heard they groom everything (even on powder day lol) and snow quality is worse. Just talked with my friends who went there (Switzerland I think) who said they significantly prefer the Rockies

Just got back from Snowmass and heard the same thing from some Europeans I shared a lift with.

 

[makemoney2024]

Agree.

We stayed in "Live by Loews" recently in Arlington TX, I thought it was the perfect hotel for an upper middle class family.

We also go to south FL multiple times a year and we usually stay at: Canopy by Hilton in downtown West Palm Beach.

I dont usually use amenities except valet parking. I usually look at neighborhood where these places are located and overall reviews etc...

The overall feel of a 3 vs 4-star hotel is different.

Aha. Thanks. I Googled both. Don’t see the hype. But I don’t require much. I want free WiFi and Free breakfast. All for about $150 a night or less.
I want clean comfy bed, and a sitting area with a kitchenette and microwave.
We are all different. The Lowe’s wasn’t too unreasonable though. Unless it’s the weekend.

In any case isn’t Europe typically cheaper unless one is going to the city center of big cities? Leave out Switzerland that is. Which I plan to go this summer and it’s gonna be shock to my system so won’t stay too long.

 

[makemoney2024]

When I priced out skiing in Europe a few months ago it came out about the same if you have an Ikon/Epic pass or a bit cheaper if you

The difference flight costs seemed to balance out the lower hotel/lift costs in Europe.

The one wild card about Europe that I never ended up looking into is if you get injured need to make sure you have some sort of health coverage and plan to get back to the States. I’ve also read that the lift lines there are strangely uncivilized

They have hospitals in Europe you know. And they will likely rub you much cheaper than the highway roberry we partake in.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

They have hospitals in Europe you know. And they will likely rub you much cheaper than the highway roberry we partake in.

I’ve actually read that if you’re not an EU citizen/taxpayer you will end up with a big bill over there, but I don’t know personally.

 

[Splenda88]

Aha. Thanks. I Googled both. Don’t see the hype. But I don’t require much. I want free WiFi and Free breakfast. All for about $150 a night or less.
I want clean comfy bed, and a sitting area with a kitchenette and microwave.
We are all different. The Lowe’s wasn’t too unreasonable though. Unless it’s the weekend.

In any case isn’t Europe typically cheaper unless one is going to the city center of big cities? Leave out Switzerland that is. Which I plan to go this summer and it’s gonna be shock to my system so won’t stay too long.

Used to say the same thing until I tried something a little more upscale. La Quinta inn was one of my favorites.

Agree with Loews being reasonable. When I stayed there, our suite of close ~1000 sqft was only 600+/night.

 

[abolt18]

I’ve actually read that if you’re not an EU citizen/taxpayer you will end up with a big bill over there, but I don’t know personally.

Got a root canal done when I lived in France about 16 years ago and the total cost was 158€. Not sure about actual hospital stuff but dental care is far less expensive as well as pharmaceuticals.

 

[triggermaster]

Got a root canal done when I lived in France about 16 years ago and the total cost was 158€. Not sure about actual hospital stuff but dental care is far less expensive as well as pharmaceuticals.

Yeah. I don’t think you need travel insurance in Europe.

 

[nimbus]

What’s a four star hotel? What does it get you? What are the amenities? I am Just curious. I travel for work and stay at 3 stars all the time. When I travel too.
What kinds of brands are the four stars?
Either way let’s remember that we are complaining of rich people problems. lol

Any place that hosts the CSA Hawaii meetings. Grand Wailea, Grand Hyatt, Fairmont Orchid, etc. They have really nice scenic onsite lounges, pools, and dining.

 

[GassYous]

What’s a four star hotel? What does it get you? What are the amenities? I am Just curious. I travel for work and stay at 3 stars all the time. When I travel too.
What kinds of brands are the four stars?
Either way let’s remember that we are complaining of rich people problems. lol

 

[dchz]

How do you keep track of all of them? Spreadsheets?

Yep I have a Google sheets.

What’s a four star hotel? What does it get you? What are the amenities? I am Just curious. I travel for work and stay at 3 stars all the time. When I travel too.
What kinds of brands are the four stars?
Either way let’s remember that we are complaining of rich people problems. lol

I think my last trip to Paris in Oct 2023 had a good view of the spectrum:

Five star:

The most expensive hotel I've stayed at is the Park Hyatt Paris Vendome. The room was even smaller than the Park Hyatt in Manhattan. October 2023, not even busy time in Paris, just imagine the cost for the Olympics.

I don't think I will ever fork over the $1500+ cash per night (so the cents per point conversion skewed) to stay there. But to give you a non snarky answer: Location and Opulence. The sheets are nicer, the beds are nicer, the tiles cost more, the automatic exterior window blinds cost more, the hotel is walking distance to the Louvre and is located in a rich neighborhood with high end shops. The amenities, including spas that costs $200-$300/hr or more, a nice gym (by Paris standards). The doorman opens the door for you right out of the taxis. The concierge knows the dress code for your 3 star Michelin restaurant reservation and called to make sure they can lend you a jacket so you don't have to worry about anything.

Four star-ish, Hyatt regencys are usually 3-3.5 stars but I pushed it over due to the location and view.

I did fork over $1200/night for a suite in Nice, France. The view is what you pay for, along with a 1200 SQ ft 1 bed 2 bath. It's the French Riviera so it's supposed to be nice. but to me it's really a crappier version of Vegas next to the Mediterranean Sea. Amenities are very similar to the 3.5 stars below. For the view see image:



Three and Half Star:
A $600 hotel - the Renaissance Eiffel Tower (yes it's walking distance to the Eiffel Tower), for comparison in the same city of Paris, is located in a quiet middle class neighborhood (for Paris). The bed felt more springy and less heft. The thread count is much lower and the amenities are pretty much non-existent. The hotel front desk person gives you advice on how to not get your wallet stolen.


Three Star
A $300 hotel, Hilton CDG airport. Just to give one more data point, is like a bigger scaled holiday inn (or I think, I've never actually stayed at a holiday inn). Location is close to the airport but other than that it's middle of nowhere.




Fwiw, none of the above locations had bedbugs. But there is clear differences between each hotel. I do agree that the marginal cost may not be worth it, as if I just stayed at the airport hotel I would save plenty of money even after the taxis into the city.... But that's no way to vacation.

Besides, I paid a total of $1300 for all 8 days of hotel in France, the rest are with points. That's why points churning is worth it to me.

 

[GassYous]

Apparently people are getting 250k points on amex business platinum and also people who have it already are reporting 150k retention bonuses