CCLCM vs Columbia-Bassett

[BostonDoctah111]

Hi Everyone!



First time poster here- I actually made this account to ask this question:



I recently found out I have the opportunity to attend two very unique programs, both of which I have a significant interest in, for very different reasons.



I find myself now deciding between the Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine (CCLCM) and the Columbia-Bassett program. Both are relatively new programs, and I see both as phenomenal options. I'm very grateful to even be in this position.



In terms of research experience, I've done extensive work in both wet lab (something I tie to CCLCM) and policy-based (something I tie to Bassett) research. I have vetted interests in both, and I really can't pick which one I would want to do more. Overall it feels as though I'd have the opportunity to do some of both health systems/policy and biomedical research at Columbia, whereas at CCLCM the emphasis would be on biomedical clinical research.



CCLCM Pros:

+Small class size, team based environment. Everyone teaches each other the material, and you use case-directed learning to cover topics as it would be presented in clinic.

+Full-ride scholarship, and affordable living situation.

+It really feels like the administration at the school genuinely cares about each and every student. I see the scholarship as an indication of that.

+PBL focused curriculum, something which I feel I would do well with.

+The incredible resources of the Cleveland Clinic are at your disposal-second best hospital in the country, with amazing faculty and staff.

+No grades or internal ranking of any sort- camaraderie is a cornerstone of the program. No shelves, no exams. Just general reflection based evaluation. The portfolio system seems really wonderful, as it's a purely qualitative look at your performance.

+I have extensive experience with research, six publications under my name, and could continue that momentum at CCLCM with its added research year, and emphasis on summer research.



CCLCM Cons:

+Very small class size.

+Cleveland is a vibrant city, but it's far from friends, family, and entirely unfamiliar. (I don't have the issues that many people do with Cleveland, OH)

+A lot is riding on every student- attendance is mandatory

+Education might be variable, based on facilitators in PBL's

+A residency director mentioned (Purely anecdotal, here) that the portfolio system is hard to "decode" and interpret when residency applications roll in. No grades or internal ranking AT ALL. This was told to me by an internal medicine residency director at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston, so only one person who said this, but it's really driven my thinking.





Columbia-Bassett Pros:

+$30,000 a year in scholarship money.

+Columbia emphasizes having a life outside of class, at CCLCM it feels like there really isn't a ton of room for extracurriculars.

+I think many people see Bassett as a "rural healthcare experience" but I actually don't see it that way (or not entirely). I look at it as an integrated hospital network where students have the opportunity to (and are actually required to) engage with the health system and craft thoughtful reforms and policy-based systems-focused changes to the Bassett network. It seems like something I could really sink my teeth into with my background in health systems and public policy. I'm thinking mainly of the SLIM projects here.

+Team-based environment in Cooperstown for the main clinical year, large class for the instructional years, so you get a bit of both sides of that class room organization.

+Similarly, you get to experience healthcare in the city for your first two years, and then the converse in your clinical year. Seems like a great way to get lots of exposure

+Loving the idea of following individual patients and having a panel of patients to yourself through the Longitudinally integrated curriculum (LIC)



Columbia-Bassett cons:

+Off campus living in NYC, I have to imagine, is SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than Cleveland. There's bard hall and other campus-sourced living situations, but it kind of feels prohibitive to off-campus living.

+Despite the scholarship, loans would absolutely be in the picture, vs graduating with no debt at Cleveland.

+Everything is heavily ranked, even the main clinical year, in which there are only ten students.

+As excited as I am by the LIC, I have to wonder how it works in practice with shelves, and how residencies look at this sort of program.





So that's where I'm at. This is a very off-the-cuff list I built, and it may expand as I think about things the next few days. I may ask about match lists and the percentage who get first choice/second choice and things to that effect. I know I'd be happy at either location, although I do feel myself leaning towards Bassett.



What do you all think? Feel free to tell me if any of my pro/cons are misguided. As I said, this was very spur of the moment.

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[Thenewguy02]

1: I think you should reexamine you financial aid packages. While tuition free, you are looking at 20k at least for living expenses each year (100k + interest). I withdrew from CCLCM before I received an aid package, but the COA The living options in Washington Heights are expensive, although Bard hall is relatively cheap. That said, Bard hall is old and I didn't like staying there for the interview, but if everyone is miserable no one is, right? Huge bonus to me is that everyone lives in the dorms - it would be like freshman year all over again! And don't forget the loss of one years salary.

2: Student attitude. I went to a lot of interviews and met a lot of students. By far the most relaxed group I have ever seen was at Columbia-Bassett. This was in the clinical year - one of the most stressful. I don't think you can underestimate the value of this. Also, the students seemed close - they had group meetups with in NYC. You also have the option of staying in Cooperstown for your fourth year. In contract, the ethos behind CCLCM is based off of the student as a professional. You are treated as such when you start CCLCM. This includes both additional respect and responsibility. Depending on who you are, this is either a bonus or a detriment.

3: Bassett as a rural experience focused on primary care. At the interview day, they heavily stressed that this is not their focus.

4: The step scores are higher in the Bassett track than on the NYC track! I think this is in part because of the relaxed atmosphere. I would have no worries about the match prestige. Columbia is the degree granting institution here.



You are in a good position, but I think you need to decide on two things. First policy/global health versus lab research. CCLCM has the edge for the latter. Second, the environment that you want to be in. I withdrew from my spot at CCLCM because I didn't want to spend the next 5 years in the Midwest. This is a personal preference for everyone. If I were in your shoes, even for research, I would choose Columbia. You have the option to do basic science research if you want to, but my bias is mainly because of the region.

 

[MDToBe22]

You're not actually serious right? Columbia is the 4th best med school in the nation. It's an ivy. You'll graduate and get to do resident wherever you want.

This is a no brainer. Go to NYC.

Edit: this decision would be a no-brainer for me. But I'm a shallow human.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Columbia student here:

1. Off-campus living in Washington heights is similar in pricing to living in the towers (on-campus apartments which are very nice) and a lot of apt buildings in the area have been recently renovated

2. Bassett students tend to do well on the shelves (or at least are not at a disadvantage to regular P&S) and similarly match extremely well into whatever they want. Shelf exams are highly de-emphasized during clinical year. They make up a very small portion of your overall grade. Bassett students also, unlike regular students, get all their review books and materials for free.

3. Preclinical is the same as regular P&S. 100% unranked pass fail. I think that clinical class ranks are integrated into everyone else (i.e. I don't think it's a separate ranking) and the grade proportions of H to HP are roughly the same (these two are 99% of the grades given at P&S).

4. You can do any type of research you want even if you're in Bassett.

I think it would be a mistake to turn down Bassett.

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

You're not actually serious right? Columbia is the 4th best med school in the nation. It's an ivy. You'll graduate and get to do resident wherever you want.

This is a no brainer. Go to NYC.

I don't think this decision is quite so clearcut. Cleveland Clinic is the 2nd best hospital in the nation. Their medical school is incredibly prestigious and you can do residency wherever you want coming from there too. Also the "it's an ivy" thing is not super relevant.

While I personally would choose Columbia, I think this comment is a bit undermining to Cleveland Clinic's program.

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

@BostonDoctah111, I think you broke down the pros/cons pretty well. Several years ago I contemplated Columbia (not Bassett specifically) vs CCLCM and now having gone through clinicals I honestly still don't think you can go wrong.

I'll just clear a couple things up because I actually don't think there is a "mistake" in selecting either school.

First, Cleveland Clinic is such a successful healthcare system because of all the health systems research it does. People come from all over the country to learn about the quality improvement (largely health services projects) that the Cleveland Clinic has implemented - they track every outcome you can imagine, and all that data is available to medical students. Without getting into the nitty-gritty, I assure you that you have access to some incredible data at the hospital can do some incredible health services research if that's your area of interest. It's actually one of the things that drew me to the school in the first place.

Second, just want to highlight one of your pros - no tests/grades. CCLCM and Case students rotate together and the difference in quality of life between those that do and don't have grades is so apparent by third year. It matters the first two years as well but the benefits (being able to do more clinical work without stress, continuing research without stress, studying your area of interest without stress, etc) make themselves so apparent in the third year. Of course you have the option to take shelf exams for your own benefit (only you see the score, I did this for every block), and yes, step scores remain very high (says maybe grades/tests in education should be reconsidered more broadly, but that's another conversation haha). Really, this is the most undersold part of CCLCM. You're going to be a doctor and go into whatever you want no matter where you go, but having seen both grades vs. no grades implemented right next to each other there is no doubt the latter system offers the potentially less stressful way to get through things. Because of this lower amount of stress I think it actually makes having a life outside of Med school very achievable, so I know Cleveland Clinic can give off that vibe at interview day but fact is the school is set up to give students a ton of unstructured time (via no grades, no tests, etc) to be used as students please.

Third, building off that idea that you'll be able to go wherever you want, I think the proof is in the data. CCLCM and Columbia will send you wherever you want to go - the match lists for both are full of Hopkins, Harvard, UCLA, etc residencies. I think the whole "no grades, portfolio system" was probably a bit amorphous at first but I know nobody has problems getting interview because of it and from the results I think it's fair to say it's more a theoretical risk than a realized one nowadays.

Fourth, and I mentioned this to somebody else who was considering moving from their hometown for medical school, but sometimes getting out for a while is a good thing. People in the Midwest are always told to "get out" and see the world for a while - well I think the same advice could be given to those who are used to any other environment. It's a learning experience to be a part of a new culture, and knowing it's only temporary is helpful to keep in mind. I think you'd get this from both Columbia because of the clinical sites you mentioned being a new environment or also from Cleveland, so I say this just to say keep the positive in mind of being away from a familiar environment/familiar people!

Lastly, I think you're right that the educational experience can vary in small groups. However, it's not that you get different information, that is shockingly well coordinated and pretty darn standardized (I often joke that the biggest thing CCLCM has done is trick us into the idea that we control our learning objectives in small group because in the end everybody's are always basically the same each week). Instead, some groups have better social dynamics that others, some are more fun than others, some are more frustrating than others because of the personalities that make the groups up. It's a great learning experience to have to work with new groups, and it prepares you well for working with clinical teams with lots of different personalities. But concerning the presentation of information itself, ultimately also remember CCLCM also has seminars that cover the learning objectives, so I don't think anybody finds the conveyance of information bothersomely variable.

Hope some of the viewpoints help a bit. I truly don't think you can go wrong. Obviously I'm biased and made my own choice years ago, but I don't think I'd have been an worse off at a great Columbia program and I certainly haven't suffered with the choice I made.

If your pros/cons made CCLCM seem like a choice you were making purely for financial reasons (happens a lot from people who applied despite stating they don't like research, though of course considering finances is absolutely a part of the equation), I wouldn't write and suggest that you'd do well there. CCLCM is a unique program that isn't for everybody, but based on the things you've listed above I think it is made for individuals born from your mold. Throw in that you'll be able to graduate without the psychological burden, let alone financial burden, of loans and I think it's definitely worth the consideration you're giving it.

Good luck with the choice!

 

[alcoholdehydrogenase69]

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[MDToBe22]

@BostonDoctah111, I think you broke down the pros/cons pretty well. Several years ago I contemplated Columbia (not Bassett specifically) vs CCLCM and now having gone through clinicals I honestly still don't think you can go wrong.

I'll just clear a couple things up because I actually don't think there is a "mistake" in selecting either school.

First, Cleveland Clinic is such a successful healthcare system because of all the health systems research it does. People come from all over the country to learn about the quality improvement (largely health services projects) that the Cleveland Clinic has implemented - they track every outcome you can imagine, and all that data is available to medical students. Without getting into the nitty-gritty, I assure you that you have access to some incredible data at the hospital can do some incredible health services research if that's your area of interest. It's actually one of the things that drew me to the school in the first place.

Second, just want to highlight one of your pros - no tests/grades. CCLCM and Case students rotate together and the difference in quality of life between those that do and don't have grades is so apparent by third year. It matters the first two years as well but the benefits (being able to do more clinical work without stress, continuing research without stress, studying your area of interest without stress, etc) make themselves so apparent in the third year. Of course you have the option to take shelf exams for your own benefit (only you see the score, I did this for every block), and yes, step scores remain very high (says maybe grades/tests in education should be reconsidered more broadly, but that's another conversation haha). Really, this is the most undersold part of CCLCM. You're going to be a doctor and go into whatever you want no matter where you go, but having seen both grades vs. no grades implemented right next to each other there is no doubt the latter system offers the potentially less stressful way to get through things. Because of this lower amount of stress I think it actually makes having a life outside of Med school very achievable, so I know Cleveland Clinic can give off that vibe at interview day but fact is the school is set up to give students a ton of unstructured time (via no grades, no tests, etc) to be used as students please.

Third, building off that idea that you'll be able to go wherever you want, I think the proof is in the data. CCLCM and Columbia will send you wherever you want to go - the match lists for both are full of Hopkins, Harvard, UCLA, etc residencies. I think the whole "no grades, portfolio system" was probably a bit amorphous at first but I know nobody has problems getting interview because of it and from the results I think it's fair to say it's more a theoretical risk than a realized one nowadays.

Fourth, and I mentioned this to somebody else who was considering moving from their hometown for medical school, but sometimes getting out for a while is a good thing. People in the Midwest are always told to "get out" and see the world for a while - well I think the same advice could be given to those who are used to any other environment. It's a learning experience to be a part of a new culture, and knowing it's only temporary is helpful to keep in mind. I think you'd get this from both Columbia because of the clinical sites you mentioned being a new environment or also from Cleveland, so I say this just to say keep the positive in mind of being away from a familiar environment/familiar people!

Lastly, I think you're right that the educational experience can vary in small groups. However, it's not that you get different information, that is shockingly well coordinated and pretty darn standardized (I often joke that the biggest thing CCLCM has done is trick us into the idea that we control our learning objectives in small group because in the end everybody's are always basically the same each week). Instead, some groups have better social dynamics that others, some are more fun than others, some are more frustrating than others because of the personalities that make the groups up. It's a great learning experience to have to work with new groups, and it prepares you well for working with clinical teams with lots of different personalities. But concerning the presentation of information itself, ultimately also remember CCLCM also has seminars that cover the learning objectives, so I don't think anybody finds the conveyance of information bothersomely variable.

Hope some of the viewpoints help a bit. I truly don't think you can go wrong. Obviously I'm biased and made my own choice years ago, but I don't think I'd have been an worse off at a great Columbia program and I certainly haven't suffered with the choice I made.

If your pros/cons made CCLCM seem like a choice you were making purely for financial reasons (happens a lot from people who applied despite stating they don't like research, though of course considering finances is absolutely a part of the equation), I wouldn't write and suggest that you'd do well there. CCLCM is a unique program that isn't for everybody, but based on the things you've listed above I think it is made for individuals born from your mold. Throw in that you'll be able to graduate without the psychological burden, let alone financial burden, of loans and I think it's definitely worth the consideration you're giving it.

Good luck with the choice!

I will be matriculating at CCLCM this year, so I'm totally biased, but my impression of the students was the most laid back of anywhere on the interview trail. Though there is an expectation of professionalism that may stress some people out, I thought that the extensive free time structured into the curriculum offered the opportunity to study if you needed to or get away from the med school life for a bit and do other things. And you absolutely can't beat the no grades through all years....

Also, check out CCLCM's most recent match list, it's extremely impressive.

Whatever choice you make, best of luck! We may be classmates come July!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

OP, have you made up your mind? I hope the fact that this thread does not have objective answers hasn't swayed your decision one way or another.

 

[BostonDoctah111]

Hey folks,

Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies. I genuinely appreciate everyone's candor in generating these posts! It's true @MDToBe22, I haven't felt entirely swayed one way or another by these posts, and you're right- if anything, it's nice to know that both are great, if very different, options. Hearing opinions from both P&S students and CCLCM future students has just been helpful in seeing what these options look like more fully.

I've taken the weekend to think, but still find myself flip-flopping. I do feel myself gravitating toward Bassett. I think at this point, I may close out the poll/forum and do some hard reflecting on my own, but as I said, it is GREATLY reassuring to know that there isn't a huge mistake being made one way or another. I feel like with these X or Y decisions, that's an easy mindset to slip into.

Thanks again to everyone, for all the time you put in writing your replies! Best of luck in all your endeavors in medical school and otherwise!

 

[MDToBe22]

Hey folks,

Thanks so much for the thoughtful replies. I genuinely appreciate everyone's candor in generating these posts! It's true @MDToBe22, I haven't felt entirely swayed one way or another by these posts, and you're right- if anything, it's nice to know that both are great, if very different, options. Hearing opinions from both P&S students and CCLCM future students has just been helpful in seeing what these options look like more fully.

I've taken the weekend to think, but still find myself flip-flopping. I do feel myself gravitating toward Bassett. I think at this point, I may close out the poll/forum and do some hard reflecting on my own, but as I said, it is GREATLY reassuring to know that there isn't a huge mistake being made one way or another. I feel like with these X or Y decisions, that's an easy mindset to slip into.

Thanks again to everyone, for all the time you put in writing your replies! Best of luck in all your endeavors in medical school and otherwise!

If you feel yourself leaning toward one school, don't try to fight it– your gut sense is usually accurate. Everything else is just background noise.