ASTRO Town Hall Discussion (Poll % on site)

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Necessary percent of time on site for RadOncs

  • 100%

  • 90%

  • 75%

  • 50%

  • 25%

  • 10%

  • 0%


Results are only viewable after voting.
Disagree completely. This percentage idea is nonsense. Either direct supervision is needed for certain codes in certain settings or it's not. There is no credible argument I have heard for direct supervision of 3D and IMRT treatments in a hospital-based setting. I need to be immediately available? For what exactly? The photons got stuck in the patient and I have to remove them? I need to approve the images in person before each treatment? Literally nobody has ever done that for non-stereo cases. It's asinine.

Of course, I am biased. What ASTRO is trying to do is an existential threat for my current position that I literally just moved for and started. If I have to be here 8-5 M-F, I will likely not be able to continue this as it will not be worth it to me unless the hospital increases my salary guarantee to 7 figures or gives me a share of technical revenue. So I will leave and the hospital will have to staff with locums or someone desperate for any job because of issues. It's a lose-lose, but ASTRO doesn't give a rats asz about rural centers. We've known that for a long time. I thought I had FINALLY found a decent gig in this dumpster fire of a specialty self-inflicted by ASTRO and the academics, and then they come out with this hot garbage.

Does anybody know how to write a letter directly to CMS? I suspect my letter to Jeff Michalski was promptly printed and used as toilet paper.
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I 100% agree with you and am very much in the same position as you. I will also leave if direct supervision becomes the rule and my center will return to filling with locums as they have the past 2 years prior to my joining.

Additionally, apparently per ASTRO, none of us actually work in rural centers. In the meeting, when asked Jeff said they’d define “rural” using RUCC (although he was very vague and ambiguous).

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I’ll sign that letter. Include the hot garbage that ROCR is and the threats it poses to small businesses and rural centers in particular
If anyone knows, can someone please tell us how we can communicate directly with CMS during the comment period?

I would also like to send a letter on behalf of community rad oncs opposing Astro’s position on this. I know we’d have lots of support.
 
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I 100% agree with you and am very much in the same position as you. I will also leave if direct supervision becomes the rule and my center will return to filling with locums as they have the past 2 years prior to my joining.

Additionally, apparently per ASTRO, none of us actually work in rural centers. In the meeting, when asked Jeff said they’d define “rural” using RUCC (although he as very vague and ambiguous).

View attachment 385246
Yeah...this is farcical. He is choosing a convenient and technical definition of rural (they've done this before).

We know rural when we see it. (Although as mentioned above, rural Tennessee and rural Wyoming are different beasts).

If ASTRO leadership might consider a second residence there...but never a primary residence...it's probably rural.
 
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There if there is a problem. Patient anxious getting on the table due to trach issues, intractable nausea for first time in a brain met patient, code (it happens), patient wants to quit today (and probably shouldn't).

But if there is no real value to being there....eff us all.

You're grasping at straws here.

We are talking about hospital settings. There is an ED measured reasonably in feet away. There is a code team. I cannot run a code. Like at all. Can you? I can do CPR. So can everyone else in the clinic as they are all certified. Patient wants to quit today? Put them on the phone with me. Anxious on table? Nurse and RTT can't handle it? I don't have ativan in my clinic anyway. What am I going to do? Talk therapy on the spot beyond what they can do? There is literally nothing I can do in this situation that the other people cannot. I do not have the touch of God nor think that I do. Worst case, they miss treatment and I'll see them tomorrow. We don't treat on the weekends and holidays, so missing a single treatment is prima facie a non-issue.

There is no value to me being in a hospital outpatient rad onc center 5 days a week all day other than simply optics. A surefire way to be miserable in life is wanting something that is not true to somehow be true (or vice versa) and spend all your energy thinking and talking about it.
 
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Of course they don't.

How many rural centers are there in Canada?...which is a freaking rural country.

Their position (if somewhat tacit) is undoubtedly one in which they view centers that are potentially not staffed by docs every day as being centers that are not providing the highest level of care.

They almost certainly think that these centers should be shut down with XRT services provided by the nearest reasonably large center operating at a scale they are comfortable with.

Although, I suspect ASTRO would claim that their real position is that even rural patients deserve a doc on site everyday. In fact, they deserve a doc living in the community...and despite the perversion of the only doc in some of these communities being a radonc, this is better than none at all.

There is a darker narrative regarding whether urban academics and professionals in general care about rural people. This narrative has of course dramatically impacted our national discourse on all matters and is particularly important in the setting of our present electoral system.

But, for those not personally invested in these situations, a general cultural shift away from in-person supervision (once it is perceived as generally reasonable) will devastate the market.

I think some folks are looking at this in terms of personal behavior...they are wrong. Only a few individual docs will abuse a change in policy...as has already been shown.

I have no doubt that @elementaryschooleconomics and @MidwestRadOnc will remain conscientious docs who provide reasonable supervision under any regulatory environment.

However, medicine is largely corporate at this point (non-profits in medicine behave in a very corporate manner). That next merger or PSA with an academic place 100 miles away...doc comes down twice a week with virtual only all other days.


I think people are consistently ignoring the last paragraph of this.
 
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Rad Onc: Code Leader

Feature or bug?
Heard ASTRO is gonna try to mandate maintenance of ACLS for all radoncs.

I'm in.
There is an ED measured reasonably in feet away.
This is good. This is not always the case for hospital based treatment BTW. There can be a health campus an ambo drive away. Glad you've got the ER in your pocket.
 
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But what if the patient codes at home? Why were you not THERE doctor? What if they have second thoughts about treatment over the weekend? You both coming into the clinic on Sunday night to discuss?
 
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This is good. This is not always the case for hospital based treatment BTW. There can be a health campus an ambo drive away. Glad you've got the ER in your pocket.
Yep @MidwestRadOnc may not realize that hospital based facilities can be "freestanding" within a certain mileage of the hospital and still bill HOPPS like an attached hospital-based RO facility
 
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Yep @MidwestRadOnc may not realize that hospital based facilities can be "freestanding" within a certain mileage of the hospital and still bill HOPPS like an attached hospital-based RO facility

I am aware as I am in this boat. The department is not physically connected with walls and a roof, but within feet of the ED. It's still not an issue. Because nobody in the department can run a code or do anything beyond BLS cert stuff, which an MD rad onc is not needed to do. If this is really the argument, then it attacks ALL freestanding community centers. 911 isn't good enough, we need an onsite code team just in case. Radiation does not make patients code. If they are coding here, they would have coded at home or Arby's or whereever.
 
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I am aware as I am in this boat. The department is not physically connected with walls and a roof, but within feet of the ED. It's still not an issue. Because nobody in the department can run a code or do anything beyond BLS cert stuff, which an MD rad onc is not needed to do. If this is really the argument, then it attacks ALL freestanding community centers. 911 isn't good enough, we need an onsite code team just in case.
Oh fer crying out loud, I'm talking about judgement in the setting of patient distress. That's it. Perhaps this can be administered virtually just as well. If so....again, it's dystopian IMO.

Patient with atypical chest pain receiving chemoradiation for NSCLCa...send to ER or no?

Witnessed seizure....you know the patient, the family, the prognosis, the seizure hx....ER or no?

The numbers are never large, but I have detected about a half dozen DVTs, sent pt to ED for suspected PE and been validated, and diagnosed a pneumothorax because of in-person assessment over the past 10+ years. Would this be statistically meaningful by any of the usual statistical tools employed to measure value or safety? No.

I have spared innumerable ER referrals due to clinical judgement and physical exam.

Nobody codes at Arby's. Too delicious. I hope to asphyxiate on a curly fry some day...odd's are pretty good.
 
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Oh fer crying out loud, I'm talking about judgement in the setting of patient distress. That's it. Perhaps this can be administered virtually just as well. If so....again, it's dystopian IMO.

Patient with atypical chest pain receiving chemoradiation for NSCLCa...send to ER or no?

Witnessed seizure....you know the patient, the family, the prognosis, the seizure hx....ER or no?

The numbers are never large, but I have detected about a half dozen DVTs, sent pt to ED for suspected PE and been validated, and diagnosed a pneumothorax because of in-person assessment over the past 10+ years. Would this be statistically meaningful by any of the usual statistical tools employed to measure value or safety? No.

I have spared innumerable ER referrals due to clinical judgement and physical exam.

Nobody codes at Arby's. Too delicious. I hope to asphyxiate on a curly fry some day...odd's are pretty good.

At my current center, Med onc is here 2 days a week while patients are getting infusion. I can't in good faith keep going down these "what-if" arguments because under this logic, an MD would be required in virtually any healthcare setting. Getting your teeth cleaned by a dental hygienist and their is excessive bleeding? Go to ED? Platelets could be 0. At the vaccination clinic at CVS and a little lightheaded after the shot? Stared too hard through the eyeball tester at the DMV and can't walk straight? Ate at Taco bell and literally anything happened? We might have a very robust job market for MDs after all!
 
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At my current center, Med onc is here 2 days a week while patients are getting infusion. I can't in good faith keep going down these "what-if" arguments because under this logic, an MD would be required in virtually any healthcare setting. Getting your teeth cleaned by a dental hygienist and their is excessive bleeding? Go to ED? Platelets could be 0. At the vaccination clinic at CVS and a little lightheaded after the shot? Stared too hard through the eyeball tester at the DMV and can't walk straight? Ate at Taco bell and literally anything happened? We might have a very robust job market for MDs after all!
No.

These are not breast and prostate patients. This are advances NSCLCa, CNS, head and neck and sick palliative patients. The pre-visit probability of crisis and the relativity acuity of crises in these patients are not comparable.

It's a judgement call about what the value is....I agree. I also agree that the value is not statistically large. But if we call it zero, there will be dire consequences.
 
As always, I don't think any of us disagree as to what we care about/what we want to see (safe, quality care). We just disagree on the exact mechanisms to get there (sort of).

(I'm repeating this not for the people in this thread, but for lurkers or people new to this debate.)

While some may disagree with me, ASTRO did this not (just) for patient safety, but for economic issues. And to be clear - I'm sympathetic to the "patient safety" supervision point of view. I would point to the lack of safety signal over the last 4.5 years, but then someone could point out lack of sensitivity to detecting and/or reporting the safety signal, etc etc etc. It's a tough case to make on either side.

But at the end of the day, I don't think many people are "patient safety purists", meaning I don't think there's anyone on any side of this debate that thinks Direct Supervision has zero impact on economics.

I am so concerned about the economics of this field it's literally what I named my SDN account. In 2019 I specifically made this account and named it "Elementary School Economics" because I found ASTRO's workforce denialism absurd. Producing more graduates while reducing our footprint is so simple, it's elementary school economics.

So in that setting, if your concern is about the potential abuse of Virtual Direct and "TeleRadOnc", I would ask you:

Is returning to Direct Supervision going to have the inhibitory effect you desire?

Because I don't think so. I think the only thing it will do is increase the risk of frivolous whistleblower cases and hospital admin abuse of treating Radiation Oncology physicians like clock-punching employees.

We're 4.5 years into a world where practices have adapted to Virtual Direct. That genie doesn't go back in the bottle.

So what is the exploit?

Well, our prior perception - as a field - of Direct Supervision was incorrect. As is now established by legal precedent, in a case specific to Radiation Oncology supervision, Direct Supervision means ANY physician "immediately available".

So if a hospital is currently engaged in Virtual Direct, and the old rules came back - does that hospital have an ER? Inpatient wards? Yes?

Great. The linac is under Direct Supervision 24/7. Nothing has to change.

This is not the guardrail we want. Just like CoN programs, it incentivizes the incumbent and harms the "little guy".

If you look, the voice of MD Anderson has been totally silent in this debate.

However, if you go to PubMed, they have published MULTIPLE papers of "virtual stuff" in RadOnc.

Anderson is the true boogeyman; Bridge is a curious startup.

While ASTRO makes us debate antiquated rules, the machine that is MD Anderson rumbles on.

Penn prepares to deploy several new proton sites.

This accomplishes nothing except destroying QoL for "the little guy" and making ASTRO somehow, against all odds, look even more foolish.
 
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Because I don't think so. I think the only thing it will do is increase the risk of frivolous whistleblower cases and hospital admin abuse of treating Radiation Oncology physicians like clock-punching employees.

This x10000. If you can't see/don't care about the impact of losing general for rural and solo doc hospitals, then you should see the stupidness of this at your own. You can't leave at your own discretion anymore at 4 anymore to go to your kid's game/recital/whatever. Your pulse is required within X feet of the linac for some guy getting fraction 34 of 39 for prostate cancer in case of who knows what.
 
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Who will be the doctor to the geriatric locum doctor when his osteoporotic bones betray him mid code whilst doling out chest compressions and he begins bleeding from two compound wrist fractures? Ever consider THAT scenario? Why not? Going to need to mandate full redundancy and that all rad oncs be certified in wilderness medicine such that they can fashion a crude, temporary splint out of tongue depressors, imo.
 
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Who will be the doctor to the geriatric locum doctor when his osteoporotic bones betray him mid code whilst doling out chest compressions and he begins bleeding from two compound wrist fractures? Ever consider THAT scenario? Why not? Going to need to mandate full redundancy and that all rad oncs be certified in wilderness medicine such that they can fashion a crude, temporary splint out of tongue depressors, imo.
not infrequently when i'm away, it is the locums who is closer to the precipice of death than anyone else in the department.
 
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ASTRO 2025: Drawing Circles and Dropping Endotracheal Tubes
 
Who will be the doctor to the geriatric locum doctor when his osteoporotic bones betray him mid code whilst doling out chest compressions and he begins bleeding from two compound wrist fractures? Ever consider THAT scenario? Why not? Going to need to mandate full redundancy and that all rad oncs be certified in wilderness medicine such that they can fashion a crude, temporary splint out of tongue depressors, imo.
I'm working on a model with Jordan Johnson right now regarding this niche service.

I envision a small army of board certified radoncs from affluent coastal areas who have wilderness medicine and ACLS certification. They will all have fanny packs (worn on the front) and Helly Hansen Jackets (uniform with a JJ insignia on the front). We will issue the requisite Subaru vehicle and nice skis. They will take monthly rotations (out West) and provide surveillance of osteoporotic locums.

Some of the group will form a sort of "special forces". They will go from small clinic to small clinic looking for the Gadsden Flag. When present, they will storm the clinic to provide direct supervision (we know there won't be any going on).
 
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This would be the dumb-est thing ever. I hope it's true.

Incoming red journal feature: “Radiation oncologists on hospital code team: the case for residency expansion.”
 
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I'm working on a model with Jordan Johnson right now regarding this niche service.

I envision a small army of board certified radoncs from affluent coastal areas who have wilderness medicine and ACLS certification. They will all have fanny packs (worn on the front) and Helly Hansen Jackets (uniform with a JJ insignia on the front). We will issue the requisite Subaru vehicle and nice skis. They will take monthly rotations (out West) and provide surveillance of osteoporotic locums.

Some of the group will form a sort of "special forces". They will go from small clinic to small clinic looking for the Gadsden Flag. When present, they will storm the clinic to provide direct supervision (we know there won't be any going on).
I'll sign up for the skis. Please and thank you.
 
Incoming red journal feature: “Radiation oncologists on hospital code team: the case for residency expansion.”
Hypocompressions: a randomized control trial demonstrating the non-inferiority of 1 minute chest compressions.

Code Cart Blues: a single institution experience of reducing the carbon footprint from in-hospital resuscitation events by recycling epinephrine needles.

NECROMANCER: Phase I/II multi-center trial of omitting resuscitation attempts for carefully selected Full Code patients.
 
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Hypocompressions: a randomized control trial demonstrating the non-inferiority of 1 minute chest compressions.

Code Cart Blues: a single institution experience of reducing the carbon footprint from in-hospital resuscitation events by recycling epinephrine needles.

NECROMANCER: Phase I/II multi-center trial of omitting resuscitation attempts for carefully selected Full Code patients.

Impressive! Now tie in DEI to supervision.
 
Impressive! Now tie in DEI to supervision.
To be published in the Journal of Equitable Studies: Chained to the machine! Is direct supervision bondage? The parallels between high remuneration on-site doctoring and chattel slavery.

also...

To be published in the Journal of Nucleotide Safety: Can alphas use alphas? Hypermasculinity and the use of alpha emitters in clinic. A prescription for a death ray? The need for mitigating betas.
 
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You guys laugh but wait until Jordan Johnson opens up arthritis radiation centers and hires like one virtual rad onc and a bunch of therapists to run the show, skin style. It’s waiting for someone that do it.

We haven’t seen anything yet folks!

/s(?)
 
You guys laugh but wait until Jordan Johnson opens up arthritis radiation centers and hires like one virtual rad onc and a bunch of therapists to run the show, skin style. It’s waiting for someone that do it.

We haven’t seen anything yet folks!

/s(?)
Good luck finding enough therapists and *checks notes* something about a..."Certificate of Need"...
 
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You guys laugh but wait until Jordan Johnson opens up arthritis radiation centers and hires like one virtual rad onc and a bunch of therapists to run the show, skin style. It’s waiting for someone that do it.

We haven’t seen anything yet folks!

/s(?)
Skin style means derm style. Derms can and do supervise radiotherapies in America. A rad onc is not integral to your hypothetical.
 
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You guys laugh but wait until Jordan Johnson opens up arthritis radiation centers and hires like one virtual rad onc and a bunch of therapists to run the show, skin style. It’s waiting for someone that do it.

We haven’t seen anything yet folks!

/s(?)

Is it alarming to anyone else that two of the biggest/loudest voices on rad onc policy issues (though on different ends of their stance on some of these issues) are not actual physicians....and their livelihoods are based upon shaping policy decisions to benefit their businesses?
 
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Good luck finding enough therapists and *checks notes* something about a..."Certificate of Need"...

Oh hence the /s

The therapy problem is a small one. In the skin centers I know about, it’s like multi level marketing and one therapist recruits the next and they’re all in cahoots. I’ve talked to former therapists who worked in traditional settings that went there and they were alarmed at how many decisions they themselves were making about treatments. But the autonomy and pay makes it worth it for some.
 
Is it alarming to anyone else that two of the biggest/loudest voices on rad onc policy issues (though on different ends of their stance on some of these issues) are not actual physicians....and their livelihoods are based upon shaping policy decisions to benefit their businesses?
Capitalism!!!
 
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Is it alarming to anyone else that two of the biggest/loudest voices on rad onc policy issues (though on different ends of their stance on some of these issues) are not actual physicians....and their livelihoods are based upon shaping policy decisions to benefit their businesses?
It would be alarming to me if they stayed silent precisely because certain issues are central to their business models!

Capitalism!!!
IMG_2546.jpeg
 
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It would be alarming to me if they stayed silent precisely because certain issues are central to their business models!


View attachment 385268

I get it, but it borders on rent seeking.

They are knowledgeable, but my general heuristic (which has served me well), is to approach with caution the non-physician parties that dabble in the physician world.
 
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I get it, but it borders on rent seeking.

They are knowledgeable, but my general heuristic (which has served me well), is to approach with caution the non-physician parties that dabble in the physician world.
Well we're seeing this because this is the only mechanism they have, they're "the little guys". I know, it's weird to say.

You don't hear from places like Penn when they play turbo hardball with payors because Penn doesn't WANT you to hear that.

When MGH faculty are publishing in NEJM/JAMA about a national medical license...to quote the music industry, "there's levels to this s**t".
 
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Well we're seeing this because this is the only mechanism they have, they're "the little guys". I know, it's weird to say.

You don't hear from places like Penn when they play turbo hardball with payors because Penn doesn't WANT you to hear that.

When MGH faculty are publishing in NEJM/JAMA about a national medical license...to quote the music industry, "there's levels to this s**t".

Makes sense.

I was hoping that ACRO may fill that physician-led "little guy" space...but not sure that's going to happen.

Maybe there's no alternative, but Ron and Jordan in the ear of CMS just doesn't give me good vibes...but my goodness, I'd probably take them over MDA or Penn....

At the risk of being overly dramatic, what does Leonard Cohen say.... "There is no decent place to stand in a massacre."
 
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Makes sense.

I was hoping that ACRO may fill that physician-led "little guy" space...but not sure that's going to happen.

Maybe there's no alternative, but Ron and Jordan in the ear of CMS just doesn't give me good vibes...but my goodness, I'd probably take them over MDA or Penn....

At the risk of being overly dramatic, what does Leonard Cohen say.... "There is no decent place to stand in a massacre."

Could argue officially mentioning they are doing their own letter twice then still not producing the letter is as damaging as ASTRO's weird surprise the audience policy strategy. I have no idea what is up with ACRO. I do not understand why the societies cant seem to work together on policy.
 
Is it alarming to anyone else that two of the biggest/loudest voices on rad onc policy issues (though on different ends of their stance on some of these issues) are not actual physicians....and their livelihoods are based upon shaping policy decisions to benefit their businesses?
So try to square this with ASTRO (a loud voice on policy issues for sure) setting a public choosing wisely policy in place from 2013 to 2022 that said don’t do breast IMRT. Even though it’s the disease site with the most “IMRT is better” data, very arguably proven. (Now, on the other hand, let’s be fair: there was a choosing wisely against protons for prostate.)
 
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Could argue officially mentioning they are doing their own letter twice then still not producing the letter is as damaging as ASTRO's weird surprise the audience policy strategy. I have no idea what is up with ACRO. I do not understand why the societies cant seem to work together on policy.

They can't work together because they all have different agendas is my perception here. Maybe wrong, but how I see it....

ASTRO - "big rad onc"/protons, covering for residency over expansion debacle where they wet noodled it and backed away from taking a stance like cowards.
Ron - strict as possible interpretation of everything to benefit Revenue Cycle.
Jordan - virtual for Bridge Oncology benefit
ACRO - a weird mix of ASTRO-lite and new voices. A mix of the three above.
 
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So try to square this with ASTRO (a loud voice on policy issues for sure) setting a public choosing wisely policy in place from 2013 to 2022 that said don’t do breast IMRT. Even though it’s the disease site with the most “IMRT is better” data, very arguably proven. (Now, on the other hand, let’s be fair: there was a choosing wisely against protons for prostate.)

That's being very gracious on the proton stance. They still supported "Registry trial" routine treatment. Who exactly has benefitted from registry trials for protons for prostate? not patients, physicians, medicare, or private insurance.
 
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I had originally planned to drop ASTRO and keep ACRO
Now I think I will pay for neither until new evidence presents itself
That's where I'm at, I long ago dropped ASTRO but remain with ACRO.

Now, I know that the ACRO leadership themselves don't necessarily agree on this topic, either.

Which is normal. There shouldn't be total agreement on any topic.

But if they "pull an ASTRO" and a small group makes a public statement "on behalf of" the organization in a non-transparent manner...

I'm out.
 
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So this all started because of Jordan Johnson/Bridge Oncology?
Does anybody know the real story of what led up to the letter?
 
So this all started because of Jordan Johnson/Bridge Oncology?
Does anybody know the real story of what led up to the letter?

I have no clue what started the need for the letter. And I also don't know who actually has the ear of CMS. Seemingly the people that are most involved (again, maybe this is just conjecture based on social media) are ASTRO, Ron, Jordan/Bridge, and ACRO.

I would argue no other "outsider" (separate from ASTRO or some big letter organization) knows the history (not immediately related to the letter, just the history of supervision) on this issue better than Jason Bekta though.
 
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I would argue no other "outsider" (separate from ASTRO or some big letter organization) knows the history (not immediately related to the letter, just the history of supervision) on this issue better than Jason Bekta though.
It would be nice to have some finality on this issue in order to plan some things, like where you are going to live, finding a life partner, what you are going to do with your savings, etc. You know, minor things.
It kind of feels like Mom and Dad are always fighting and you have no idea at any given moment if you're going to be living with Grandma and going to a different school next year.
 
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It would be nice to have some finality on this issue in order to plan some things, like where you are going to live, finding a life partner, what you are going to do with your savings, etc. You know, minor things.
It kind of feels like Mom and Dad are always fighting and you have no idea at any given moment if you're going to be living with Grandma and going to a different school next year.

100% agree.

THey also need to not dance around the question (and be VERY clear) of if direct supervision is needed, is it allowable to have an NP/PA do this with the the doc as back up general.
 
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So this all started because of Jordan Johnson/Bridge Oncology?
Does anybody know the real story of what led up to the letter?
In the FAQs, they do mention no show tele-supervision, but my take is their main concern is the values of some radiation FFS codes reliant on physician presence. Of course, they're also trying to do away with the current FFS codes for most diagnoses via ROCR. So who knows? Are they just looking to protect the FFS codes for the tech exempted from ROCR? Probably.
 
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