Why the attitude?

[ISU_Steve]

I have a question, stemming from a very heated discussion with a fellow predent (one who is not a member of SDN so far as I know) today: Why is it that people who go into dentistry with the stated intention of specializing (such as myself) are viewed as gunners, or as just being in the field for the paycheck.

I have brought this up with a couple of other people and most often the response is along the lines of "The purpose of a dental school is to produce general dentists." OK.... The stated purpose of many med schools is to produce general practice (FP, peds, IM, etc) doctors, but I don't see the rampant blasting of people who are premeds and state that their only aspiration in medicine is to become a CT surgeon, a neurologist, a pulmonologist, etc.

A predent or dental student states that they want to be an OMS or an orthodontist (although I've noticed more of a backlash towards wannabe OMS's) and they have to be prepared for the Internet equivalent of a tar and feathering followed by a burning at the stake for heresy. Why is there such a negative attitude towards people who are hellbent on specializing such as myself? (Although I am an extreme example as evidenced by my statements on here about preferring the idea of an academic career over 20+yrs in general dentistry.)

Is it because of the limited number of slots compared to the number of applicants (and I mean this in the sense of all the specialties combined, as compared to the number of new grads each year)? Is it because of some engrained belief that somehow general practice is a higher form of calling?

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

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[drben]

I have a question, stemming from a very heated discussion with a fellow predent (one who is not a member of SDN so far as I know) today: Why is it that people who go into dentistry with the stated intention of specializing (such as myself) are viewed as gunners, or as just being in the field for the paycheck.

I have brought this up with a couple of other people and most often the response is along the lines of "The purpose of a dental school is to produce general dentists." OK.... The stated purpose of many med schools is to produce general practice (FP, peds, IM, etc) doctors, but I don't see the rampant blasting of people who are premeds and state that their only aspiration in medicine is to become a CT surgeon, a neurologist, a pulmonologist, etc.

A predent or dental student states that they want to be an OMS or an orthodontist (although I've noticed more of a backlash towards wannabe OMS's) and they have to be prepared for the Internet equivalent of a tar and feathering followed by a burning at the stake for heresy. Why is there such a negative attitude towards people who are hellbent on specializing such as myself? (Although I am an extreme example as evidenced by my statements on here about preferring the idea of an academic career over 20+yrs in general dentistry.)

Is it because of the limited number of slots compared to the number of applicants (and I mean this in the sense of all the specialties combined, as compared to the number of new grads each year)? Is it because of some engrained belief that somehow general practice is a higher form of calling?

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Naivity plain, and simple...how do you know that you want to specialize when you have little exposure to any of the specialty fields of dentistry? Unless you have had 20+ root canals, had braces 3 times, had 32 teeth extracted and implants placed, had scaling and root planing followed by quadrant open flap debridement 4+ times; how the hell do you know anything about the various specialties!!?? Yeah, I know "I've shadowed for 2436 hours in specialty offices"...I don't care how much you "shadow" the bottom line is that you don't know **** about dentistry until about half way into your second year!!!

Steve, I promise that you will have a more rewarding dental school experience if you go in with the mindset that you are going to be a GP, and give little thought to specialization until the middle of your second year. You just want to do well enough in school so that you have the option to specialize. Don't talk to your classmates about your grades, class rank of yourself or others, or desire to specialize...When I was an orthodontic resident (incidentally at Indiana) we blackballed people with your mindset.

Ben

 

[ISU_Steve]

Thanks for the advice....I'll start keeping my interests to myself.

But I don't think having an interest in specialization from shadowing experiences is any different than a person who goes into med school with the intention of being a surgeon- few of them have ever observed surgery (not nearly the numbers that you see amongst predents who shadow any specialty they can get near) but you don't see people telling them something to the effect of shut up and be content with being a family practice doc.

Yes, I understand my interests may well change, and if they do, oh well, chalk it up to experience and move on. I'm not an unyielding hardass, I'm just a little blunt, that's all.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Yeah, I know "I've shadowed for 2436 hours in specialty offices"...I don't care how much you "shadow" the bottom line is that you don't know **** about dentistry until about half way into your second year!!!

So, can you not watch a round of golf on TV and decide you'd like to try it? How can you possibly think that observing in offices to determine your interests is any different than making other observations about what you like and don't like in life? Just because he thinks he likes OMS at day one doesn't mean that he can't change his mind. When you decided to go into dentistry, how did you know you wanted to be a dentist? You didn't go to any dental school before then. You must have made some observations that led you to believe that you would enjoy it. It's just as ridiculous to criticize someone in dental school for wanting to be an Oral Surgeon as it is to criticize someone in your biology class for wanting to be a doctor, dentist, or physical therapist, rather than a biologist.

Steve, I promise that you will have a more rewarding dental school experience if you go in with the mindset that you are going to be a GP, and give little thought to specialization until the middle of your second year.

This is possibly the dumbest piece of advice that I've ever heard. I started out wanting to do Ortho, took a couple Ortho classes and realized that I didn't like it. Then I had an Oral Surgery class, and loved it. Just because I said early on that I wanted to do Ortho didn't mean I was stuck with it. And surprise, I loved dental school. I partied, played golf, and went on trips with people in my class. No one cared who wanted to do what, because it didn't matter. Steve, if you want to specialize, make that your goal. Screw all the haters that are most likely jealous because they've gone from being the smart kid in Biology class to being the ***** who can't seem to figure out why his wax-up never looks like a tooth.

I also think it's perfectly fine if someone wants to specialize and keeps it a secret. Who's business is it but that person's anyway? All these people need to settle down and get a freakin' life. It'd be great if dental schools would go back to the old school way of doing things, and boot all the people who do nothing but bitch and moan every day.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Yes, I understand my interests may well change, and if they do, oh well, chalk it up to experience and move on. I'm not an unyielding hardass, I'm just a little blunt, that's all.

Rock on, man. I'm with you.

 

[DDSSlave]

...When I was an orthodontic resident (incidentally at Indiana) we blackballed people with your mindset.

Ben

Why is that? I would think someone like Steve who has been interested in a specialty since dental school began shows a lot of passion. Just curious about your thoughts. I think the main negative with having such a focused mindset is that you almost convince yourself not to do general dentistry or another specialty before you even give it a chance. Regarding ortho, it's difficult to get any experience other than shadowing. I'm pursuing it, because it looks like the most fascinating area in dentistry and the terrific patients, but to be honest, I won't have much hand's on experience before I apply. Very few ortho applicants will. Of course very few oral surg applicants have hand's on experience in the OR...

 

[ISU_Steve]

BTW guys, I'm still a predent.....just so you all know.

 

[Zurik5]

Don't worry about it. Seriously.

 

[drben]

So, can you not watch a round of golf on TV and decide you'd like to try it? How can you possibly think that observing in offices to determine your interests is any different than making other observations about what you like and don't like in life? Just because he thinks he likes OMS at day one doesn't mean that he can't change his mind. When you decided to go into dentistry, how did you know you wanted to be a dentist? You didn't go to any dental school before then. You must have made some observations that led you to believe that you would enjoy it. It's just as ridiculous to criticize someone in dental school for wanting to be an Oral Surgeon as it is to criticize someone in your biology class for wanting to be a doctor, dentist, or physical therapist, rather than a biologist.



This is possibly the dumbest piece of advice that I've ever heard. I started out wanting to do Ortho, took a couple Ortho classes and realized that I didn't like it. Then I had an Oral Surgery class, and loved it. Just because I said early on that I wanted to do Ortho didn't mean I was stuck with it. And surprise, I loved dental school. I partied, played golf, and went on trips with people in my class. No one cared who wanted to do what, because it didn't matter. Steve, if you want to specialize, make that your goal. Screw all the haters that are most likely jealous because they've gone from being the smart kid in Biology class to being the ***** who can't seem to figure out why his wax-up never looks like a tooth.

I also think it's perfectly fine if someone wants to specialize and keeps it a secret. Who's business is it but that person's anyway? All these people need to settle down and get a freakin' life. It'd be great if dental schools would go back to the old school way of doing things, and boot all the people who do nothing but bitch and moan every day.

Well, today I watched Tiger win the British Open and man it looked like fun...I guess I should give up orthodontics and become a professional golfer...becuase afterall by watching it on TV then surely I have the understanding and aptitude to make it on the PGA Tour (even though I have a 25 handicap )

So...does your program routinely admit dental students that haven't had any extern experience? I was just like you...I wanted to be an oral surgeon and then did an externship and decided that OS wasn't for me. Why do most OS programs find applicants that have done externships more desirable...because without externships applicants have a skewed perspective of OS and don't really understand what is expected of the residents.

Look, I agree with most of what your saying (go back and read your own post and I think you'll find that the majority of your post supports my perspective) but remember we are talking about a PREDENT not a dental student. As for having fun in dental school...my experience was that the students that were labeled "gunners" just didn't seem to have as much fun as the rest of the class.

Ben

 

[drben]

Why is that? I would think someone like Steve who has been interested in a specialty since dental school began shows a lot of passion. Just curious about your thoughts. I think the main negative with having such a focused mindset is that you almost convince yourself not to do general dentistry or another specialty before you even give it a chance. Regarding ortho, it's difficult to get any experience other than shadowing. I'm pursuing it, because it looks like the most fascinating area in dentistry and the terrific patients, but to be honest, I won't have much hand's on experience before I apply. Very few ortho applicants will. Of course very few oral surg applicants have hand's on experience in the OR...

It's really hard to express focused interest in a specialty of dentistry and not seem like a kiss a$$. Seriously, aren't there people in your class that seem to have their lips permanently tatooed on the residency director's a$$???

Maybe my dental school experience was unique

 

[drhobie7]

I understand what DrBen is saying. For example, people who start dental school and say they're doing ortho without knowing anything about it. You've got to wonder what their motivations are. Not to say there's anything malicious behind the motivations, but at best they are naive. A lot of the negative image of the "gunner" is based on personal experiences. They tend to be super-competitive and unpleasant to be around. The ones I've know have tried to plant seeds of anxiety and insecurity in fellow classmates. I'm sure you've met them throughout college. They're the ones who don't share notes, ask what grades you got, boast about their grades, and horde information. I get a kick out of them because they seem to have a much higher level of anxiety, which amuses me. They're the ones who are often freaking out.

I don't think being a gunner goes hand in hand with specializing. I guess it's just more common. I don't think you're a gunner, 'cause you seem like a pretty chill guy. There's nothing wrong with being interested in ortho or whatever at the start of dental school, but you don't have to brand yourself as pre-ortho. You're pre-doctoral! People have been branding me as OMS and I'm thinking how silly that is because I'm only halfway done and I could just as easily wind up doing general dentistry. Labeling yourself isn't going to do you any good at this point.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Well, today I watched Tiger win the British Open and man it looked like fun...I guess I should give up orthodontics and become a professional golfer...becuase afterall by watching it on TV then surely I have the understanding and aptitude to make it on the PGA Tour (even though I have a 25 handicap )

So...does your program routinely admit dental students that haven't had any extern experience?

By saying that he'd like to do Oral Surgery, he's not quitting his profession and going a completely different direction. All he's saying is that he's interested. When I would say I wanted to do OMS, I was saying that it was what I was interested in. It's ridiculous that people think that's such a crime.

And no, programs don't generally admit students without externships, but I don't really see how that's relevant. He's not applying yet--he's just expressing his interest in the field.

 

[drben]

By saying that he'd like to do Oral Surgery, he's not quitting his profession and going a completely different direction. All he's saying is that he's interested. When I would say I wanted to do OMS, I was saying that it was what I was interested in. It's ridiculous that people think that's such a crime.

And no, programs don't generally admit students without externships, but I don't really see how that's relevant. He's not applying yet--he's just expressing his interest in the field.

"Posted at 4:29 AM"... I am reminded why I couldn't hack OS
I agree that it's okay to express interest in any field, I think it's another to make a "commitment" to specialization prior to entering dental school. Again, I think we agree on everything except symantics.

Ben

 

[Doggie]

BTW guys, I'm still a predent.....just so you all know.

Ahhhh........dont mind what other people say. I was in your shoes when I was in the process of applying for dental school. This year, I am starting my 1st year residency in an OMS program. Dont worry so much about people labelling you as a gunner or whatever. (I also partied a lot, so I seemed more of a freak than gunner. )

Moral of the story: if there is a will, there is a way.