Unsolicited Jobs Thread

[TheWallnerus]

Your only chance to negotiate is.. at the beginning.

Great piece of advice for the young. And in fact if you try to start negotiating a couple years after you’ve worked hard and got kind of settled, you may actually screw yourself by being seen as ungrateful or a squeaky wheel.

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[sirspamalot]

Great piece of advice for the young. And in fact if you try to start negotiating a couple years after you’ve worked hard and got kind of settled, you may actually screw yourself by being seen as ungrateful or a squeaky wheel.

Not only that, but they most certainly will know they have you by the short hairs if you squeal and then get snuffed.. and still stay. Your only negotiation tool is this: make a credible statement to leave, then back it up. Easier to do if you aren't trapped there with kids in school etc.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Great piece of advice for the young. And in fact if you try to start negotiating a couple years after you’ve worked hard and got kind of settled, you may actually screw yourself by being seen as ungrateful or a squeaky wheel.

Lessons learned the hard way. Most people believe you can “show them” your value, but the contract is made so that you lose any negotiating power such as the ability to leave (non-compete) and a timeline where you’re stuck to either serve out your remaining term or pay to be released.

In this field where there are not that many opportunities, this delay in time can inhibit your ability to move or stay and can put you in a terrible financial situation if you don’t put things in place in the beginning. There is nothing like the feeling of being trapped in a job you can’t leave.

I decided personally to take the financial hit and although it was really stressful in the short term, I’m happier then I ever been for making the tough decision.

 

[sirspamalot]

I decided personally to take the financial hit and although it was really stressful in the short term, I’m happier then I ever been for making the tough decision.

This decision is always very difficult and many will continue to be treated poorly and underpaid. Thank you for standing up. And to those reading who are wavering..

 

[deleted1116990]

Great piece of advice for the young. And in fact if you try to start negotiating a couple years after you’ve worked hard and got kind of settled, you may actually screw yourself by being seen as ungrateful or a squeaky wheel.

Seen it. When you go to admin and tell them you are unhappy with your compensation, even if you do get a bump, they will start to think about replacing you (which is usually done by making your work situation unpleasant enough that you voluntarily quit). I have interviewed at places where this was explicitly explained to me why there was an opening... "well Dr. So-and-so was never really happy, he kept coming to us every 6 months and saying he wasn't really comfortable and always wanted something else and we couldn't ever satisfy him..." They acted like they were personally offended that these guys weren't grateful for the little bumps and perks they would give them when they complained. It was also made clear that when these guys voluntarily submitted their resignation that it was immediately accepted and treated as binding as admin. It was exactly what admin wanted to happen and there was no option to un-do it by the doc. Another very important lesson to learn early on: If your job has become so sucky that you want to quit, it's probably intentional, and you better have something else solid lined up before you do, because there's no going back.

 

[sirspamalot]

Seen it. When you go to admin and tell them you are unhappy with your compensation, even if you do get a bump, they will start to think about replacing you (which is usually done by making your work situation unpleasant enough that you voluntarily quit). I have interviewed at places where this was explicitly explained to me why there was an opening... "well Dr. So-and-so was never really happy, he kept coming to us every 6 months and saying he wasn't really comfortable and always wanted something else and we couldn't ever satisfy him..." They acted like they were personally offended that these guys weren't grateful for the little bumps and perks they would give them when they complained. It was also made clear that when these guys voluntarily submitted their resignation that it was immediately accepted and treated as binding as admin. It was exactly what admin wanted to happen and there was no option to un-do it by the doc. Another very important lesson to learn early on: If your job has become so sucky that you want to quit, it's probably intentional, and you better have something else solid lined up before you do, because there's no going back.

Whats the wRVU of administrative activity? The answer is the same everywhere yo:

Yet they get fat salaries, in most places very very easy work conditions (unless something goes horribly wrong ie hello JCAHO, Inspectors etc) and absolute power. The sense of 'we own you" is very very strong. "If we want a doctor gone he's gone.."

Sure you will. Right up until there is a hole in operations. Then, well...

you can start paying 3x for rotating locum randos who might suck and killdoze your referral patterns bub.


Your leverage are your feet. Use them.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Seen it. When you go to admin and tell them you are unhappy with your compensation, even if you do get a bump, they will start to think about replacing you (which is usually done by making your work situation unpleasant enough that you voluntarily quit). I have interviewed at places where this was explicitly explained to me why there was an opening... "well Dr. So-and-so was never really happy, he kept coming to us every 6 months and saying he wasn't really comfortable and always wanted something else and we couldn't ever satisfy him..." They acted like they were personally offended that these guys weren't grateful for the little bumps and perks they would give them when they complained. It was also made clear that when these guys voluntarily submitted their resignation that it was immediately accepted and treated as binding as admin. It was exactly what admin wanted to happen and there was no option to un-do it by the doc. Another very important lesson to learn early on: If your job has become so sucky that you want to quit, it's probably intentional, and you better have something else solid lined up before you do, because there's no going back.

Agree 100%, always have option B ready and never let them know your intentions to leave until you are ready. Hospital admins are snakes and truly only care about their situation and each other.

Most enjoy the power high they get controlling docs and telling them what to do or what they need in order for you to do your job. They already assume we make too much anyway.

 

[communitydoc13]

Most enjoy the power high they get controlling docs and telling them what to do or what they need in order for you to do your job. They already assume we make too much anyway.

I'm a doc with some admin responsibility. I remain full time clinically, however. Only recently have I been privy to what it's like to have docs ask for more and more.

I do agree that most non-physician admin don't quite get the docs position. The pay disparity is hard to get around emotionally. If you are making 250k as an admin and a doc is bitching about making 600 or 700k, this is not going to resonate at all, it just wont. Most admin are like most people in general, they want to know that they are getting more for paying more, or at least that they are rewarding excellence.

In the present market, you may get medoncs asking for more, while offering less. Or docs who have been low performers asking for more. This causes dissonance. I have experienced it myself being on the other side of the table. I will tell you the exact feeling I have had.

"You are asking to make 300K more than me and you have no commitment to excellence, go eff yourself."

But you can't say this. Because of the market. Do these negotiations impact culture? Quite a bit.

A market flush with docs invites admin overreach and doc as widget mentality (this is what we experience). A market shortage of physician labor invites self serving behavior and a lack of accountability. I wish this wasn't the case, but it is.

 

[deleted1116990]

I do agree that most non-physician admin don't quite get the docs position. The pay disparity is hard to get around emotionally. If you are making 250k as an admin and a doc is bitching about making 600 or 700k, this is not going to resonate at all, it just wont. Most admin are like most people in general, they want to know that they are getting more for paying more, or at least that they are rewarding excellence.

I agree with the last point about admin wanting to feel like they are getting a "good deal."

But with regards to resonating MD compensation vs. admin compensation, I can't follow that. That's a perversion of modern employed-physician healthcare. In most industries, it is true that the executives and managers earn far more than the company's employees who produced the products. It is beyond frustrating to have a non-physician administrator view you not only as their peer but as often their superior and then extrapolate this to compensation expectations. Physicians are historically fee-for-service professionals, not salaried employees. The more they work, the more they earn. The CFO can't pick up some extra CFO shifts or cram in 50% more meetings to make more money.

Where do these people get off trying to compare themselves to someone who went to 10 years of med school and residency, got board certified, and assumes massive financial and personal liability for their work with their own licenses on the line? And yes, I have directly had a low level admin try and scold me for acting like I thought I was special or somehow different than him because I am a doctor. Excuse me? You're god damn right I am on a different level than you. I don't go around shoving it in everyone's face, but if you want to push me on it, we are going to get facts straight and refuse to play in your everyone-gets-a-participation-trophy fantasy.

What is a "commitment to excellence?" Presumably this is more than just wRVU numbers. If I'm producing 20k wRVU, yes I expect to be compensated much higher than admin. But maybe I am missing commitment to excellence because I don't want to waste time in a bunch of quality meetings? It's possible.

 

[medgator]

Still, I would refuse to take these bad offers for as long as possible until I just had to put food on the table.

Won't matter in a few years when legions of new grads start trying to fight over the jobs in Kearney and Appleton

 

[metallica81788]

I'm convinced "physician" admins are tools of hospital systems to reduce salary negotiations, a guilt trip ploy. Well if these other doctors that have worked their way through the system think what I'm asking for is unreasonable, it has to be, right? They're on my side?

"Oh I see you're doing really well there and very busy, man I'd wish to make what you're making but I'm just a lowly GI/internist/admin..."

But produce too much, they'll hire a new grad and reduce your negotiating power instantly. You're no longer their problem.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I'm convinced "physician" admins are tools of hospital systems to reduce salary negotiations, a guilt trip ploy. Well if these other doctors that have worked their way through the system think what I'm asking for is unreasonable, it has to be, right? They're on my side?

"Oh I see you're doing really well there and very busy, man I'd wish to make what you're making but I'm just a lowly GI/internist/admin..."

But produce too much, they'll hire a new grad and reduce your negotiating power instantly. You're no longer their problem.

I was in admin position and it was a pure joke. The only perk was that I was able to make more due to my title but when it came down to actual policies or value, they could care less of my opinion. I saw first hand how clueless the admins were and all they ever did well was know how to kick the can down the road and find time to schedule endless meetings.

The reviews and policy procedures were always about trying to find new ways to “improve” production or set up some random new “quality metric” that just made life harder for the clinicians despite my pleas to focus on things that actually had a direct impact on patient care.

 

[deleted1116990]

I was in admin position and it was a pure joke. The only perk was that I was able to make more due to my title but when it came down to actual policies or value, they could care less of my opinion. I saw first hand how clueless the admins were and all they ever did well was know how to kick the can down the road and find time to schedule endless meetings.

The reviews and policy procedures were always about trying to find new ways to “improve” production or set up some random new “quality metric” that just made life harder for the clinicians despite my pleas to focus on things that actually had a direct impact on patient care.

Basically all admin like...

 

[communitydoc13]

What is a "commitment to excellence?"

You know what it is. Docs know what it is and if you are in a partnership, you expect it of your partners. It is thinking hard about patients, learning new things, demonstrating compassion and a willingness to do essential work that you won't get a lot of credit for.

You know what it is not. Large amounts of patient complaints, staff complaints, poor outcomes.

I'm convinced "physician" admins are tools of hospital systems to reduce salary negotiations

There is definitely a "toolish" aspect to it in my experience. But, docs need to be willing to participate in this or else it's just the admin/doc dichotomy with mutual disrespect.

What we have now is a failed market in medical oncology. I am not talking about any radoncs that I have dealt with. I am talking about some of the medoncs I have dealt with and the reality of the present medonc locums market. If you think this market is a healthy thing and something we should be cheering or aspiring to, I think you are mistaken. It is just going to lead to closures and further consolidation of care.

The pay disparity between the CEO of a nonprofit healthcare system making $10+ million, vs. us “providers”, when such a system level CEO role only exists because progressive politicians decided that “bigger is better” in healthcare, is truly insane.

This I agree with, but it's not how it works in smaller community places. CEO may make a million, nobody else does and nobody makes 10. "Bigger is better" is truly insane.

But I do wonder, is smaller to the limit of Docs only really better? I contend there has to be a middle ground to aspire to. The independent practices in surgery, radiology and pathology in my community are all a bit worse in terms of quality in my opinion. A slightly larger than independent practice lets you invest in lots of things that are not strictly "bottom dollar" investments.

I don't know what the right answer is, but I doubt that a system of independent, physician owned centers with crippled or closed rural hospitals is the system you want, either for health outcomes or your job satisfaction.

Who would you rather work for, a small hospital or a medonc?

 

[sirspamalot]

You're god damn right I am on a different level than you. I don't go around shoving it in everyone's face, but if you want to push me on it, we are going to get facts straight and refuse to play in your everyone-gets-a-participation-trophy fantasy

Attaboy Moonbeams, Attaboy.

 

[OTN]

You know what it is. Docs know what it is and if you are in a partnership, you expect it of your partners. It is thinking hard about patients, learning new things, demonstrating compassion and a willingness to do essential work that you won't get a lot of credit for.

You know what it is not. Large amounts of patient complaints, staff complaints, poor outcomes.


There is definitely a "toolish" aspect to it in my experience. But, docs need to be willing to participate in this or else it's just the admin/doc dichotomy with mutual disrespect.

What we have now is a failed market in medical oncology. I am not talking about any radoncs that I have dealt with. I am talking about some of the medoncs I have dealt with and the reality of the present medonc locums market. If you think this market is a healthy thing and something we should be cheering or aspiring to, I think you are mistaken. It is just going to lead to closures and further consolidation of care.



This I agree with, but it's not how it works in smaller community places. CEO may make a million, nobody else does and nobody makes 10. "Bigger is better" is truly insane.

But I do wonder, is smaller to the limit of Docs only really better? I contend there has to be a middle ground to aspire to. The independent practices in surgery, radiology and pathology in my community are all a bit worse in terms of quality in my opinion. A slightly larger than independent practice lets you invest in lots of things that are not strictly "bottom dollar" investments.

I don't know what the right answer is, but I doubt that a system of independent, physician owned centers with crippled or closed rural hospitals is the system you want, either for health outcomes or your job satisfaction.

Who would you rather work for, a small hospital or a medonc?

I'd rather work for a very large, physician-owned multispecialty group.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I'd rather work for a very large, physician-owned multispecialty group.

This is the way forward in medicine. Doctor's hospitals and clinics.

 

[sirspamalot]

I'd rather work for a very large, physician-owned multispecialty group.

The only problem with that is.. you had better be buddy buddy with those at the top of the food chain (in 50 or less type size groups).. otherwise, you will languish (unless they have a bulletproof partnership track). The good news is, when things blow up, there's no NPDB looming over your head for a personality interaction failure. Team sport, and you're the new guy. Oh, and by the way, you're on call for the holidays and I hope you like the taste of leather/ass.

For you see, in hospitals, the theory goes, you have some legal rights (unless you signed them away with your W2, which most do having zero clue on how to read a contract).. including some that can't even be taken away as a medical staff member. Solo is best, otherwise, you'll be looking over your shoulder.

Tomatoh Tomatoh pick your poison.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

The only problem with that is.. you had better be buddy buddy with those at the top of the food chain (in 50 or less type size groups).. otherwise, you will languish (unless they have a bulletproof partnership track). The good news is, when things blow up, there's no NPDB looming over your head for a personality interaction failure. Team sport, and you're the new guy. Oh, and by the way, you're on call for the holidays and I hope you like the taste of leather/ass.

For you see, in hospitals, the theory goes, you have some legal rights (unless you signed them away with your W2, which most do having zero clue on how to read a contract).. including some that can't even be taken away as a medical staff member. Solo is best, otherwise, you'll be looking over your shoulder.

Tomatoh Tomatoh pick your poison.

True and even these groups have docs who start becoming the admin types who wield some sort of control or power structure. Agree, solo is the best route for freedom but almost inpossible to acheive in this world.

 

[sirspamalot]

True and even these groups have docs who start becoming the admin types who wield some sort of control or power structure. Agree, solo is the best route for freedom but almost impossible to acheive in this world.

Negative ghostrider. Just take a rural practice job where they need someone good to solidify and improve the program.

Oh and.. learn how to fly... lol.

 

[communitydoc13]

I'd rather work for a very large, physician-owned multispecialty group.

Yeah, I'm afraid that due to our extreme competitiveness when I was coming out, these jobs were a bit beyond me.

 

[medgator]

Yeah, I'm afraid that due to our extreme competitiveness when I was coming out, these jobs were a bit beyond me.

Yep. Even today, they are getting filled though no one is posting them to the gimped ASTRO career center, that's for damn sure

 

[temujim]

This is the way forward in medicine. Doctor's hospitals and clinics.

My understanding is that Congress has for all intents and purposes outlawed (or at least made impossible in a regulatory fashion by restricting Medicare funding) of MD owned hospitals.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

With the vast majority of docs now being W2 hospital employees, and the "health system rollup" happening at a logarithmic rate, physicians are viewed and treated as vehicles of medical liability and reimbursement mechanisms from CPT codes without being accused of fraud.

The blood, sweat, tears, and emotional toll of performing this job take a backseat to a hospital CEO with an MBA from some random upstate New York state school worrying about the departmental margin contribution at his 501c3 hospital.

 

[deleted1116990]

You know what it is. Docs know what it is and if you are in a partnership, you expect it of your partners. It is thinking hard about patients, learning new things, demonstrating compassion and a willingness to do essential work that you won't get a lot of credit for.

You know what it is not. Large amounts of patient complaints, staff complaints, poor outcomes.

I honestly didn't know. I agree with you. My concern was that corporatey terms like "commitment to excellence" could likely mean "what is your press ganey score" and "do you show up to monday morning 7AM CEO rounds on time with a smile on your face"

 

[deleted1116990]

I'd rather work for a very large, physician-owned multispecialty group.

Define very large. How many sites/docs? Multi-city? Multi-region? Before you start becoming worried about long term viability...

 

[communitydoc13]

I honestly didn't know. I agree with you. My concern was that corporatey terms like "commitment to excellence" could likely mean "what is your press ganey score" and "do you show up to monday morning 7AM CEO rounds on time with a smile on your face"

Totally get it. Sound like that is what it would mean. I should have clarified. Just being a doc that other docs know is prepared and cares.

 

[OTN]

Define very large. How many sites/docs? Multi-city? Multi-region? Before you start becoming worried about long term viability...

Very large. Multi-region, many sites, at least 50+ docs. Ideally big enough that it's not at risk for PE buyout which always screws over the non-partners. Big enough that it has a large corporate structure (that works at the behest of the docs) and standardized partnership contract. Truly multi-specialty.

This talk reminds me of a good friend of mine who once was the VP of a smallish hospital. I got to talking with him about his administration strategy, because he was/is very different from any hospital admin I've ever met. As he is a very smart and hardworking fella, he figured out right away that the best way to maximize revenue was to make it as easy as possible for the physicians to want to work at his hospital. Parking spots by the entrances for the docs, scheduling the OR however the surgeons wanted it, free food at the cafeteria, on and on and on. Of course his hospital absolutely killed it.

Now, he did not go to a crappy undergrad and was not a C student (he was offered spots in multiple MD/PhD programs for example). As a result, alas, healthcare administration wasn't for him, so (of course) he went into private equity. The problem, at least how I see it after I talk with him, isn't necessarily the presence of administration, but the fact that so many of them are so very, very bad at their jobs. So many are truly not intelligent enough to be able to put all the pieces together and see how, by working with the physicians, they can easily benefit both their institutions and themselves. He is, and it clearly worked.

 

[temujim]

This talk reminds me of a good friend of mine who once was the VP of a smallish hospital. I got to talking with him about his administration strategy, because he was/is very different from any hospital admin I've ever met. As he is a very smart and hardworking fella, he figured out right away that the best way to maximize revenue was to make it as easy as possible for the physicians to want to work at his hospital. Parking spots by the entrances for the docs, scheduling the OR however the surgeons wanted it, free food at the cafeteria, on and on and on. Of course his hospital absolutely killed it.

It's so crazy it just might work.

Had one older and experienced admin tell me along the lines that if the hospital takes care of the docs, everything else pretty much takes care of itself.

But try convincing your run of the mill hospital MBA that he cannot design the perfect systems to reward/punish the cogs in his care.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

This talk reminds me of a good friend of mine who once was the VP of a smallish hospital. I got to talking with him about his administration strategy, because he was/is very different from any hospital admin I've ever met. As he is a very smart and hardworking fella, he figured out right away that the best way to maximize revenue was to make it as easy as possible for the physicians to want to work at his hospital. Parking spots by the entrances for the docs, scheduling the OR however the surgeons wanted it, free food at the cafeteria, on and on and on. Of course his hospital absolutely killed it.

God, this is so painfully obvious...and somehow still uncommon.

In my opinion, the reason we don't see this more is it requires someone to "call it like they see it", be in a position to do something about it, and have the gumption to take action.

All three are bottlenecks, obviously. But I think "being honest about the system" is far and away what stops more people like your friend from running hospitals.

What do I mean? People think patients are the "customer" - they are not. Every single living person, at multiple points in their lives, are going to get sick and need some form of care, until they are no longer a living person. They're more akin to the sun for power companies using solar. The sun is always there, but the power companies compete to make money using different equipment and strategies.

If you shift into that viewpoint - alright, the sun is shining, how can we turn out the most electricity - doctors become the solar panels, inverters, batteries, etc. We're the equipment you need to make money. So you better take good care of the equipment.

But this line of thinking is "gross", it goes against the stories we tell ourselves. The story is that medicine is a noble profession, and the focus is on patient satisfaction ("the customer is always right"). It's the tail wagging the dog, and why so many people in medicine are unhappy.

If you shift into "doctor satisfaction", the patients will come. In the end, we're all people. So giving the docs a nice/clean space, making their workflow as seamless as possible, paying them fairly - OF COURSE such a hospital will make money hand-over-fist. But we're not supposed to think about Healthcare like this...so here we are.

 

[sirspamalot]

And of course, the unspoken sentence is.. PAY THE DOCTORS FAIRLY AND GENEROUSLY. Since we're not allowed to say that out loud, the only way you'll get to enforce it is at the time of your initial contract negotiation because you sure as shyt won't ever move that flag much after that.

 

[TheWallnerus]

And of course, the unspoken sentence is.. PAY THE DOCTORS FAIRLY AND GENEROUSLY. Since we're not allowed to say that out loud, the only way you'll get to enforce it is at the time of your initial contract negotiation because you sure as shyt won't ever move that flag much after that.

Flag never moves

If Jordan could never get a pay raise with the Bulls…

 

[A_DeMichele]

I'm convinced "physician" admins are tools of hospital systems to reduce salary negotiations, a guilt trip ploy. Well if these other doctors that have worked their way through the system think what I'm asking for is unreasonable, it has to be, right? They're on my side?

"Oh I see you're doing really well there and very busy, man I'd wish to make what you're making but I'm just a lowly GI/internist/admin..."

But produce too much, they'll hire a new grad and reduce your negotiating power instantly. You're no longer their problem.

My current 6-physician employed group recently went through outside search for a “Chair”. Admins were explicitly saying they needed someone “quiet” and “agreeable”.

 

[A_DeMichele]

re: “failed market”. Was the situation when an employed RadOnc was taking home in OH 1.2 mil in 2010 a failed market, that needed correction via increased MD supply?


Or is it failed now, when multiple grads are competing for her position and are ready to accept 480K?

 

[sirspamalot]

Admins were explicitly saying they needed someone “quiet” and “agreeable”.

Folks, if this ain't tellin it like it is, I don't know what else to do. Ages ago.. The first pp job I had, a more senior physician came by after watching him amicably chatting (as if they were old friends) with the senior hospital leadership at the cocktail party... he leaned over and whispered to me "never, ever trust the administrators."

Rule #1: violate it at your own risk.

He told me later "these guys (kooky adventists) wanted to have a morality clause for our groups contract. We told them to F off with that nonsense." (that group had been providing services there already for like 10+ years)..

Fast forward 15 years.. I hear a story in another state about (adventists again whaddya know) laying off like 80 radiologists en masse in Florida when negotiations broke down. A few docs crossed the line.. stabbing their own in the back. Many more were hired on as temps. What a mess.

 

[deleted1116990]

That said, quality still matters as some places (finally) get the message after a couple of docs coming and going in a row leave a bad taste in their mouth.

Some. I'm wondering if it's more like few.

My first employer hemorrhaged oncologists. Everybody was constantly pissed off. Clinics were micromanaged by incompetents (they put an RN from ob/gyn in charge of the med onc clinic for instance, with zero oncology knowledge). Upper level admin focused on chipping away at MD compensation however they could and would consistently mess with RVU numbers so that nobody ever got a bonus. Literally between rad onc and med onc, I am only aware of a single instance where someone received a quarterly RVU bonus on top of their base and it was a paltry $5k for a med onc who was carrying an insane census. I was doing about 9-10k wRVU and would regularly get RVU reports stating that I was underperforming my base salary by something like 200-300k per year, which was obviously B.S.

And yet even with this constant revolving door with bait-and-switch hire tactics and docs bolting after a year or two, upper admin were convinced it was the MDs who were the problem, not them.

Don't lie to doctors (smart people) with obvious lies. Don't treat them like an employee in the cafeteria. Don't rename the doctor's lounge to the "providers lounge" and open the lounge up for lunch to NPs and PAs because they are all the same. It's not rocket science.

 

[deleted1116990]

My current 6-physician employed group recently went through outside search for a “Chair”. Admins were explicitly saying they needed someone “quiet” and “agreeable”.

They want a useful idiot.

This was mentioned elsewhere, but I've noticed the same thing goes on with "physician-led" hospitals that employee docs. The CMO or even CEO is an MD, sure, but in reality just a tool of the board making sure MDs stay in line and gaslighter-in-chief to reduce physician salary expense. I'm not so sure that these "physician-led" organizations are better than organizations run by local community college grads. It takes a special kind of doctor (an assshole, from what I've seen) to want to go into admin.

 

[sirspamalot]

Someone really really needs to redo that fuhrer bunker speech video with this theme "Ivve paid zee oncologists and yet zey demands mohr! Traitors!"

 

[sirspamalot]

They want a useful idiot.

This was mentioned elsewhere, but I've noticed the same thing goes on with "physician-led" hospitals that employee docs. The CMO or even CEO is an MD, sure, but in reality just a tool of the board making sure MDs stay in line and gaslighter-in-chief to reduce physician salary expense. I'm not so sure that these "physician-led" organizations are better than organizations run by local community college grads. It takes a special kind of doctor (an assshole, from what I've seen) to want to go into admin.

You're killing'm son. Lol. My staff must be wondering why I'm cackling in my office..

 

[Mandelin Rain]

They want a useful idiot.

This was mentioned elsewhere, but I've noticed the same thing goes on with "physician-led" hospitals that employee docs. The CMO or even CEO is an MD, sure, but in reality just a tool of the board making sure MDs stay in line and gaslighter-in-chief to reduce physician salary expense. I'm not so sure that these "physician-led" organizations are better than organizations run by local community college grads. It takes a special kind of doctor (an assshole, from what I've seen) to want to go into admin.

Not physician led. Physician owned.

 

[deleted1116990]

Not physician led. Physician owned.

Well I've seen that go the wrong way too. Especially when the entire organization is owned by a single physician who has 100% of the vote.

 

[sirspamalot]

Well I've seen that go the wrong way too. Especially when the entire organization is owned by a single physician.

Absolutely. Power and money lead to greed for more. And 'more' is what killed the golden goose.

 

[Gfunk6]

In case some older posters have forgotten, or newer posters have never seen - here is a relevant blast from the past.

The time that hospital recruiters accidentally wrote what they were thinking.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/gossip-about-jobs.1430794/page-5#post-22906185

• We expect you to behave as a physician leader instead of a typical physician

 

[BobbyHeenan]

The difference in physician leader or owned has the most to do with how much clinic time the physician admin spends.

If they have a 1/2 day of actual clinic work, forget it. They're an admin. If it's two clinic days at least...then they "get it" still. Need to have a hand in both worlds.

 

[medgator]

re: “failed market”. Was the situation when an employed RadOnc was taking home in OH 1.2 mil in 2010 a failed market, that needed correction via increased MD supply?


Or is it failed now, when multiple grads are competing for her position and are ready to accept 480K?

Yes it was a failed market according to Dr Hallahan at Wash U.

"the junior faculty pay is too damn high!"

DEFINE_ME

 

[sirspamalot]

Guess who still has their same jobs at WashU? The authors of that article. Funny how that works. When you're secure in your padded cell, its easy to cast aspersions on the world beyond.

 

[RadRadRad]

Flag never moves

If Jordan could never get a pay raise with the Bulls…

I think Jordan got like 30 mil a year his last couple years with bulls which was insane for the time (and still less than his value)

None of us is Jordan though

 

[Royster33]

I'm a medical oncologist and routinely get bombarded with emails from recruiters - don't think I've ever seen 800K starting as an offer. Highest is probably 650. As a PP you can make 800K+ but you will be working your ass off for it, and it will take years to get there. Offers I got out of fellowship in the Northeast were all 300-400K starting (all ~one hour radius to Boston). Higher in midwest and rural. You guys definitely have a skewed idea of what med oncs make.

Now with that being said I agree that we should be making more, given what we bring in to the hospital...

 

[TheWallnerus]

I'm a medical oncologist and routinely get bombarded with emails from recruiters - don't think I've ever seen 800K starting as an offer. Highest is probably 650. As a PP you can make 800K+ but you will be working your ass off for it, and it will take years to get there. Offers I got out of fellowship in the Northeast were all 300-400K starting (all ~one hour radius to Boston). Higher in midwest and rural. You guys definitely have a skewed idea of what med oncs make.

Now with that being said I agree that we should be making more, given what we bring in to the hospital...

If you would like to make more, buy a linac and hire a rad onc.

 

[BobbyHeenan]

I'm a medical oncologist and routinely get bombarded with emails from recruiters - don't think I've ever seen 800K starting as an offer. Highest is probably 650. As a PP you can make 800K+ but you will be working your ass off for it, and it will take years to get there. Offers I got out of fellowship in the Northeast were all 300-400K starting (all ~one hour radius to Boston). Higher in midwest and rural. You guys definitely have a skewed idea of what med oncs make.

Now with that being said I agree that we should be making more, given what we bring in to the hospital...

The med oncs I know that do really well (close to 1million plus)....

- work very hard. Though mostly 4 days/week long days. Long call weeks. See a gazillion patients.
- are part of a big group with their own pharmacy. THey own their own real estate/buildings. Maybe even some imaging.
- have TONS of PA's/NP's. Like 3 NP's per every doc. IMO this compromises care but this is becoming a trend in the med onc world. Med onc sees at initial consult and then may not see for a long time as NP's are making decisions/managing chemo issues.