RO-APM Podcast Episode (from The Accelerators)

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This is an interesting discussion. As a senior resident, this bothers me quite a bit. I am going into the community (in the same city where I am training). I am honest with patients - "yes you can get your whole breast at your local center 2 hr from here whose rad onc was trained at our institution". Meanwhile, I have heard my attending gently or overtly tell them they should get treated at the ivory tower.

I also echo the disparity. Several people in our department that probably have <5 on beam - chair, 80-20 lab people. Senior faculty mostly ~10. Junior faculty 20-25+.

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This is an interesting discussion. As a senior resident, this bothers me quite a bit. I am going into the community (in the same city where I am training). I am honest with patients - "yes you can get your whole breast at your local center 2 hr from here whose rad onc was trained at our institution". Meanwhile, I have heard my attending gently or overtly tell them they should get treated at the ivory tower.

I also echo the disparity. Several people in our department that probably have <5 on beam - chair, 80-20 lab people. Senior faculty mostly ~10. Junior faculty 20-25+.
This seems like rule rather than exception …
 
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One of the main story lines in literature and cinema is a failure to recognize an enemy or an evil (see: No Country For Old Men). And deal with it. Now I am not saying ASTRO is an enemy or evil. But after multiple times of attempting to show me who they are, I have now accepted their efforts. They truly are Big Rad Onc. ASTRO is heavily tilted toward academics, and we all know the divide between academics and non-academic in Rad Onc. It is partly what has been a downfall of our specialty. ASTRO is not kind. ASTRO is not inclusive. ASTRO can be petty and short-sighted. Its foci are mis-aimed. It consistently is asleep at the wheel on the REAL issues.

I will not fight against ASTRO. But I won't give them oxygen or money. Join Luh is a special case. The man must be a goldfish to use a Ted Lasso-ism. I respect him and I also know that he has the smarts to be changing ASTRO from the inside with subtlety and cunning. You have those too. I do not have those smarts. So all I can do is like what is outlined in the book "The Sociopath Next Door." Which is total avoidance. Sometimes that's the "healthy" move. (Sorry ASTRO that I used the words evil and sociopath. These are metaphors only. You are not really evil or a sociopath. You are just a self-serving organization made of people whose values don't align with mine.)

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For some reason I felt the need to weigh in here because Join and I have been friends a pretty long time - through the ACR. I could be wrong but my sense is that Dr. Luh learned a LOT of what he knows through his very deep and longstanding involvement in the ACR Radiation Oncology Commission (and CARROS). My impression is that he remains first and foremost an ACR member. The ACR has an enormous staff and tremendous lobbying power, exemplified by them occupying the only radiologic seat on the RUC. They are also heavily focused on legislative and regulatory activity. However they decided to divest from RO several years ago. This was to focus on their "core business" which they now very much perceive as diagnostic radiology because radiation oncologists were not joining ACR or contributing to ACR. I worried about this a lot at the time as did the other few remaining RO Commission members who are sticking it out. I don't have a good answer for this other than to wish many years ago that there had not been quite so much of an independence movement of "radiation oncology" out of the house of radiology. I keep hoping someday we could mend this widening rift but it would take a huge political/cultural/educational shift that seems increasingly unrealistic.
 
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For some reason I felt the need to weigh in here because Join and I have been friends a pretty long time - through the ACR. I could be wrong but my sense is that Dr. Luh learned a LOT of what he knows through his very deep and longstanding involvement in the ACR Radiation Oncology Commission (and CARROS). My impression is that he remains first and foremost an ACR member. The ACR has an enormous staff and tremendous lobbying power, exemplified by them occupying the only radiologic seat on the RUC. They are also heavily focused on legislative and regulatory activity. However they decided to divest from RO several years ago. This was to focus on their "core business" which they now very much perceive as diagnostic radiology because radiation oncologists were not joining ACR or contributing to ACR. I worried about this a lot at the time as did the other few remaining RO Commission members who are sticking it out. I don't have a good answer for this other than to wish many years ago that there had not been quite so much of an independence movement of "radiation oncology" out of the house of radiology. I keep hoping someday we could mend this widening rift but it would take a huge political/cultural/educational shift that seems increasingly unrealistic.
Great points
 
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"yes you can get your whole breast at your local center 2 hr from here whose rad onc was trained at our institution". Meanwhile, I have heard my attending gently or overtly tell them they should get treated at the ivory tower.
I also echo the disparity. Several people in our department that probably have <5 on beam - chair, 80-20 lab people. Senior faculty mostly ~10. Junior faculty 20-25+.
Pyramid scheme! ~Half of all U.S. Rad Oncs starting tx on less than 150 patients per year. And nearly 2/3 of all rad oncs seeing 2 or less new breast patients/week (breast the most common RT indication).

IUyyqBV.jpg
 
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For some reason I felt the need to weigh in here because Join and I have been friends a pretty long time - through the ACR. I could be wrong but my sense is that Dr. Luh learned a LOT of what he knows through his very deep and longstanding involvement in the ACR Radiation Oncology Commission (and CARROS). My impression is that he remains first and foremost an ACR member. The ACR has an enormous staff and tremendous lobbying power, exemplified by them occupying the only radiologic seat on the RUC. They are also heavily focused on legislative and regulatory activity. However they decided to divest from RO several years ago. This was to focus on their "core business" which they now very much perceive as diagnostic radiology because radiation oncologists were not joining ACR or contributing to ACR. I worried about this a lot at the time as did the other few remaining RO Commission members who are sticking it out. I don't have a good answer for this other than to wish many years ago that there had not been quite so much of an independence movement of "radiation oncology" out of the house of radiology. I keep hoping someday we could mend this widening rift but it would take a huge political/cultural/educational shift that seems increasingly unrealistic.
I couldn't agree more.

One of the senior docs in my group and I talk about the ACR a lot. When he was practicing back in the 90s, he was very involved in the ACR, and often speaks about how tremendously valuable that experience was, and how much influence/infrastructure the ACR has compared to ASTRO.

I do think that the factors which turned RadOnc in the 2000s into an ultra-competitive specialty at the residency level - namely, that American healthcare reimbursement has been weighted towards procedures and practices/institutions had tremendous cash flow from IMRT (which I have heard described as a "buck-a-Rad"), and the perceived lifestyle of a specialty without an inpatient service - also drove people to think we could "do it ourselves" at the policy level. We were among the most coveted specialties in the House of Medicine, and that meant we excelled in all arenas, right? Ego begets ego. While I'm certain people like you and Join Luh recognized the danger in this thinking, I suspect your opinion was in the minority. Unfortunately, our rise coincided with the Radiology Recession of the mid-to-late 2000s, which incentivized Diagnostic Radiology to shore up their own walls, and accelerated the divide between societies.

In the grand scheme of things, we're a very small specialty. Our modality has mostly fixed costs after a huge upfront capital expense. We aren't viewed as a potential revenue vehicle for Big Pharma/medical device companies, so they wont' fight for us in DC (or elsewhere). In fact, as the RO-APM painfully demonstrates, we're evidently viewed as a liability on the accounting books of anyone involved in the Oncology space. Money which flows to RadOnc is money which is not flowing to Merck, or AstraZeneca, or Abbvie, etc. I'm not necessarily saying that there's some Deep State (Deep Pharma?) conspiracy against us, more that when all the major players witnessed the continually proposed and enacted cuts to our specialty over the years, they have basically shrugged and said "sucks for them".

In an alternate reality, 20 years ago when the modern RadOnc bubble started, instead of pulling away from the ACR, what if we had embraced them? I think bundled payments for RadOnc was an inevitability, but I suspect (know) that part of the reason this is happening now and not 10 years ago was because the government wanted to cut reimbursements as much as possible before introducing capitation/bundled payments. Could a continued partnership with a much larger and more powerful organization have driven this in a more favorable direction? We can never know for sure, but I have to imagine it would.

I agree that re-engaging with the ACR would take a massive political shift, but isn't it worth trying? We have 5 years before the APM is rolled out everywhere. I don't see departments cutting resident spots to slow our supply, I don't see research aimed at decreasing or omitting radiation slowing down, I don't see an IMRT-equivalent technological revolution for the next decade, and I don't see APM going away.

Perhaps, if the Editor-in-Chief of our main journal and the President of CARROS championed an effort to bring RadOnc back to the relationship it once enjoyed with the ACR, we could have stronger leverage in working with CMS on APM and future challenges?
 
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I couldn't agree more.

One of the senior docs in my group and I talk about the ACR a lot. When he was practicing back in the 90s, he was very involved in the ACR, and often speaks about how tremendously valuable that experience was, and how much influence/infrastructure the ACR has compared to ASTRO.

I do think that the factors which turned RadOnc in the 2000s into an ultra-competitive specialty at the residency level - namely, that American healthcare reimbursement has been weighted towards procedures and practices/institutions had tremendous cash flow from IMRT (which I have heard described as a "buck-a-Rad"), and the perceived lifestyle of a specialty without an inpatient service - also drove people to think we could "do it ourselves" at the policy level. We were among the most coveted specialties in the House of Medicine, and that meant we excelled in all arenas, right? Ego begets ego. While I'm certain people like you and Join Luh recognized the danger in this thinking, I suspect your opinion was in the minority. Unfortunately, our rise coincided with the Radiology Recession of the mid-to-late 2000s, which incentivized Diagnostic Radiology to shore up their own walls, and accelerated the divide between societies.

In the grand scheme of things, we're a very small specialty. Our modality has mostly fixed costs after a huge upfront capital expense. We aren't viewed as a potential revenue vehicle for Big Pharma/medical device companies, so they wont' fight for us in DC (or elsewhere). In fact, as the RO-APM painfully demonstrates, we're evidently viewed as a liability on the accounting books of anyone involved in the Oncology space. Money which flows to RadOnc is money which is not flowing to Merck, or AstraZeneca, or Abbvie, etc. I'm not necessarily saying that there's some Deep State (Deep Pharma?) conspiracy against us, more that when all the major players witnessed the continually proposed and enacted cuts to our specialty over the years, they have basically shrugged and said "sucks for them".

In an alternate reality, 20 years ago when the modern RadOnc bubble started, instead of pulling away from the ACR, what if we had embraced them? I think bundled payments for RadOnc was an inevitability, but I suspect (know) that part of the reason this is happening now and not 10 years ago was because the government wanted to cut reimbursements as much as possible before introducing capitation/bundled payments. Could a continued partnership with a much larger and more powerful organization have driven this in a more favorable direction? We can never know for sure, but I have to imagine it would.

I agree that re-engaging with the ACR would take a massive political shift, but isn't it worth trying? We have 5 years before the APM is rolled out everywhere. I don't see departments cutting resident spots to slow our supply, I don't see research aimed at decreasing or omitting radiation slowing down, I don't see an IMRT-equivalent technological revolution for the next decade, and I don't see APM going away.

Perhaps, if the Editor-in-Chief of our main journal and the President of CARROS championed an effort to bring RadOnc back to the relationship it once enjoyed with the ACR, we could have stronger leverage in working with CMS on APM and future challenges?
Yeah just don't know - it's deeper than that, right? The widening cultural divide is concerning. FWIW, I do think ACR has been working on RO-APM and I hope they stay involved, to whatever extent ASTRO and the ACR RO Commission can keep them on board.
 
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Pyramid scheme! ~Half of all U.S. Rad Oncs starting tx on less than 150 patients per year. And nearly 2/3 of all rad oncs seeing 2 or less new breast patients/week (breast the most common RT indication).

IUyyqBV.jpg
Are these stats for 'centers' or individual docs?
 
Yeah just don't know - it's deeper than that, right? The widening cultural divide is concerning. FWIW, I do think ACR has been working on RO-APM and I hope they stay involved, to whatever extent ASTRO and the ACR RO Commission can keep them on board.
Oh yeah definitely deeper (I just believe that money and reputation drive most of human behavior). I hope they stay involved as well, I am thinking about joining as a member but it comes with a $1,000 price tag so I haven't jumped in yet.

As always, you engaging in public spaces (Twitter, SDN) is deeply appreciated.
 
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Oh yeah definitely deeper (I just believe that money and reputation drive most of human behavior). I hope they stay involved as well, I am thinking about joining as a member but it comes with a $1,000 price tag so I haven't jumped in yet.

As always, you engaging in public spaces (Twitter, SDN) is deeply appreciated.
It's an interesting phenomenon that the radiological societies have, at least until this moment in time, co-existed relatively peacefully and somewhat intersectionally/cooperatively. But I am not sure the ASTRO general membership realizes all of this and how intricate and precarious these relationships are. I am sure there are numerous channels of communication going on in the background of which I may not be aware. I know there are really dedicated good people in the ACR RO Commission who are patiently maintaining the relationship and enduring against the "abandon RO" tides. In any case I agree with many of your comments. I think we need all the help we can get, right now - and more so over the next few years - to expose the harmful effects and injustices of RO-APM and actualize them into corrections to the model before it is accepted as the final solution.
 
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The $1000 annual dues for ACR is difficult to justify; this is higher than ASTRO/ASCO/ABS.
 
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Pyramid scheme! ~Half of all U.S. Rad Oncs starting tx on less than 150 patients per year. And nearly 2/3 of all rad oncs seeing 2 or less new breast patients/week (breast the most common RT indication).

IUyyqBV.jpg

The interesting thing about this data is that its from (2004-2013) which would overlap with a lot what people would consider the "golden years"

 
This is probably why not many join
ok well if you don't want to join ASTRO (or ACR or whatever organization), sending a letter to your congressperson like Simul said - that is free, right? we can all agree that more time to analyze and correct at least some of the deficits in the RO-APM would help, right?
 
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ok well if you don't want to join ASTRO (or ACR or whatever organization), sending a letter to your congressperson like Simul said - that is free, right? we can all agree that more time to analyze and correct at least some of the deficits in the RO-APM would help, right?
I suspect @RickyScott was just making an observation that some of the lack of RadOnc membership in the ACR is due to cost, not necessarily positing the dichotomy of "join a professional society vs do nothing".

But I agree, everyone should be contacting their representatives, I'm sure mine are tired of hearing from me!
 
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I suspect @RickyScott was just making an observation that some of the lack of RadOnc membership in the ACR is due to cost, not necessarily positing the dichotomy of "join a professional society vs do nothing".

But I agree, everyone should be contacting their representatives, I'm sure mine are tired of hearing from me!
I am actually thinking of joining acr now. Had avoided it because of cost.
 
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I suspect @RickyScott was just making an observation that some of the lack of RadOnc membership in the ACR is due to cost, not necessarily positing the dichotomy of "join a professional society vs do nothing".

But I agree, everyone should be contacting their representatives, I'm sure mine are tired of hearing from me!

I am actually thinking of joining acr now. Had avoided it because of cost.
I totally get that everyone has different avenues to be involved - I'm a member of so many societies I can't even keep track, I just pay whatever invoice rolls in - and for what it's worth I did write letters too - but I think the key thing is that on big stuff like this, we could/should all try to find common ground - my understanding is that the next couple of months is crucial - so if one of you anonymous folks out there knows the Bidens feel free to dial up Dave Adler LOL
 
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Technology on “definitive lung” is a not great example of why a patient should move to the main campus for 6 weeks. 60 Gy/ 30 works well with any type of technology, save for some egregious mistakes on V20
 
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Technology on “definitive lung” is a not great example of why a patient should move to the main campus for 6 weeks. 60 Gy/ 30 works well with any type of technology, save for some egregious mistakes on V20
I disagree completely. Definitive lung is EXACTLY when you need technology like 4D and daily CBCT, both of which are not ubiquitous. Every day I see lungs collapse, open back up. I see tumors move sideways, and with my MANY IIIC patients, I can’t just throw 1.5-2cm on GTV and call it a day.

To be clear, which of these tools do you think is superfluous in definitive lung?
 
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I disagree completely. Definitive lung is EXACTLY when you need technology like 4D and daily CBCT, both of which are not ubiquitous. Every day I see lungs collapse, open back up. I see tumors move sideways, and with my MANY IIIC patients, I can’t just throw 1.5-2cm on GTV and call it a day.

To be clear, which of these tools do you think is superfluous in definitive lung?
I don’t know of any practices that don’t have cbct, but I am sure they exist somewhere.
 
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I disagree completely. Definitive lung is EXACTLY when you need technology like 4D and daily CBCT, both of which are not ubiquitous. Every day I see lungs collapse, open back up. I see tumors move sideways, and with my MANY IIIC patients, I can’t just throw 1.5-2cm on GTV and call it a day.

To be clear, which of these tools do you think is superfluous in definitive lung?
You're doing 4DCT on your IIIB/C lungs? Yeah, ok 🙄.

Talk about a waste of time and resources. Things hardly move sometimes in the upper lobes, let alone the n2/n3 nodal stations where it's unheard of.
 
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You're doing 4DCT on your IIIB/C lungs? Yeah, ok 🙄.

Talk about a waste of time and resources. Things hardly move sometimes in the upper lobes, let alone the n2/n3 nodal stations where it's unheard of.
You don’t do 4D for all lungs???

Why?
 
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You're doing 4DCT on your IIIB/C lungs? Yeah, ok 🙄.

Talk about a waste of time and resources. Things hardly move sometimes in the upper lobes, let alone the n2/n3 nodal stations where it's unheard of.


sign #3 of a move the meat factory.
 
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You're doing 4DCT on your IIIB/C lungs? Yeah, ok 🙄.

Talk about a waste of time and resources. Things hardly move sometimes in the upper lobes, let alone the n2/n3 nodal stations where it's unheard of.
You aren’t???

Subcarina moves quite a bit in many, to say nothing of LLL tumors. When was the last time you simulated a stage III with 4D? I can’t remember the last time my ITV wasn’t significantly different than my GTV. Why risk missing?
 
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You aren’t???

Subcarina moves quite a bit in many, to say nothing of LLL tumors. When was the last time you simulated a stage III with 4D? I can’t remember the last time my ITV wasn’t significantly different than my GTV. Why risk missing?
he's not missing, uses big margins I assume. but i would much rather do an ITV and CBCT and use as small margins as possible.
 
sign #3 of a move the meat factory.
Don't have to move the meat much when you're practicing with those excellent PPS exempt rates huh.

What do you have under tx? 6? 8? Move the meat is how you keep a center financially viable out in the real world, bro. I mean i get it, if you have a single digit patient load and nothing else to do but bill for unnecessary stuff and contour on extra scans, have at it. I don't think you're getting much bang for that buck on a big III lung
 
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You aren’t???

Subcarina moves quite a bit in many, to say nothing of LLL tumors. When was the last time you simulated a stage III with 4D? I can’t remember the last time my ITV wasn’t significantly different than my GTV. Why risk missing?
Do a little study next time on your itv margins outside the lower lobe and get back to me. The apical and perihilar stuff moves very little ime
 
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he's not missing, uses big margins I assume. but i would much rather do an ITV and CBCT and use as small margins as possible.
Good way to run up the bill i guess. V20 of 28% definitely better than 29 or 30! Efficiency is the name of the game when you've been getting paid less than everyone else for years to do the same thing, and if you've actually seen and treated enough stage 3B/C lung, there just isn't a lot of movement there and the 4DCT itself can be unreliable if they are dyspneic from tumor
 
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Mediator is right about the upper lung.
Movement is rare there. Subcarina can move but often does not. If you are using cone beam, you should catch subtstantial movement if it is occurring.
Correct. Good quality kv picks up the carina very well also, usually have therapists check both carina and spine with a low threshold for CBCT if they aren't both matching.

4DCT on every SBRT makes sense, not in every locally advanced lung. In fact the scan is often garbage because these patients are fairly symptomatic from their disease
 
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Do a little study next time on your itv margins outside the lower lobe and get back to me. The apical and perihilar stuff moves very little ime

Thanks, but I will just stick with getting a 4D. Sure, there are times that it doesn't move all that much, but I only make that determination AFTER having reviewed the 4D.

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Thanks, but I will just stick with getting a 4D. Sure, there are times that it doesn't move all that much, but I only make that determination AFTER having reviewed the 4D.

View attachment 345223View attachment 345224
If you're getting good quality waveforms out of that patient population, more power to you. My experience is that it is a few mm of movement at most and the quality of the study in that population generally tends to be crap because of their underlying PS/breathing pattern
 
It's an interesting phenomenon that the radiological societies have, at least until this moment in time, co-existed relatively peacefully and somewhat intersectionally/cooperatively. But I am not sure the ASTRO general membership realizes all of this and how intricate and precarious these relationships are. I am sure there are numerous channels of communication going on in the background of which I may not be aware. I know there are really dedicated good people in the ACR RO Commission who are patiently maintaining the relationship and enduring against the "abandon RO" tides. In any case I agree with many of your comments. I think we need all the help we can get, right now - and more so over the next few years - to expose the harmful effects and injustices of RO-APM and actualize them into corrections to the model before it is accepted as the final solution.
Germane.


Title : Declining Applicant Numbers in the Radiation Oncology Match – How Should We Respond?

Wednesday, November 17, 2021 5–6pm ET


Moderator: Aaron Bush, MD

Panelists:

Headshot
Headshot
Headshot
Brian D Kavanagh, MD, MPH, FASTRONeha Vapiwala, MD Alan Hartford, MD, PhD, FACR
Hosted by: ACR Commission on Radiation Oncology
 
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Germane.


Title : Declining Applicant Numbers in the Radiation Oncology Match – How Should We Respond?

It's nice to see that not only is reality being acknowledged but that action also needs to be taken (hopefully not of the need more med student exposure and increase URM recruitment variety).
 
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Germane.


Title : Declining Applicant Numbers in the Radiation Oncology Match – How Should We Respond?

Wednesday, November 17, 2021 5–6pm ET


Moderator: Aaron Bush, MD

Panelists:

Headshot
Headshot
Headshot
Brian D Kavanagh, MD, MPH, FASTRONeha Vapiwala, MDAlan Hartford, MD, PhD, FACR
Hosted by: ACR Commission on Radiation Oncology
How should we respond? The entire concept of this process being corrected by the market means there's no need to respond, necessarily, Do less. Don't SOAP, and don't just take a warm body.
 
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How should we respond? The entire concept of this process being corrected by the market means there's no need to respond, necessarily, Do less. Don't SOAP, and don't just take a warm body.

There is always someone desperate out there without a secured PGY 2 position as well as programs willing to fill with anyone so there isn't a supply and demand market driven solution to our oversupply issues. Given the above discussion on this thread, it is becoming clearer that rad onc is just not big enough to be a stand alone specialty that can effectively advocate for itself in today's complex environment. Consolidation with radiology maybe the only realistic way forward.
 
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There is always someone desperate out there without a secured PGY 2 position as well as programs willing to fill with anyone so there isn't a supply and demand market driven solution to our oversupply issues. Given the above discussion on this thread, it is becoming clearer that rad onc is just not big enough to be a stand alone specialty that can effectively advocate for itself in today's complex environment. Consolidation with radiology maybe the only realistic way forward.
Zietman and Wallner already advocated for this in previous Red J editorial lest we forget
 
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You're doing 4DCT on your IIIB/C lungs? Yeah, ok 🙄.

Talk about a waste of time and resources. Things hardly move sometimes in the upper lobes, let alone the n2/n3 nodal stations where it's unheard of.

??

Is this not a standard for locally advanced NSCLC in 2021? I'm not saying you have to do compression, but enough to treat the envelope without just doing a 2cm PTV expansion? Hilar LNs can move like 1cm or not at all... same with subcarinal.

I mean I do 4DCT for low esophageal adenos which maybe is overkill...

Anyways, on topic - I will have to listen to this. I feel for those affected by RO-APM and the disaster that it will be.
Have meant to listen to them all... just a matter of available time.
 
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??

Is this not a standard for locally advanced NSCLC in 2021? I'm not saying you have to do compression, but enough to treat the envelope without just doing a 2cm PTV expansion? Hilar LNs can move like 1cm or not at all... same with subcarinal.

I mean I do 4DCT for low esophageal adenos which maybe is overkill...

Anyways, on topic - I will have to listen to this. I feel for those affected by RO-APM and the disaster that it will be.
Have meant to listen to them all... just a matter of available time.
You're generating a quality 4DCT itv on an n3 lung? Again it's not been my experience that they move a ton and waveforms are pretty crappy because these patients are sick with irregular breathing patterns. Free breathing, end inspiration/expiration scans are another option btw, and not a bad one when the 4DCT isn't happening
 
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I think EORTC state-of-art or whatever NSCLC RT guidelines, which I'm too lazy to link, do not mandate 4D CT as clinically necessary in Stage III. There are other options.
 
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NCCN mentions you should do something for respiratory motion. I’m surprised at how range is “why ever do it?” (Initial comment by 🐊) vs “everyone should do it”. I think unless you do it often enough, you don’t know how much motion there is.
 
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You're generating a quality 4DCT itv on an n3 lung? Again it's not been my experience that they move a ton and waveforms are pretty crappy because these patients are sick with irregular breathing patterns. Free breathing, end inspiration/expiration scans are another option btw, and not a bad one when the 4DCT isn't happening
For the most part, our 4D works just fine. When we don’t get a good waveform using the device, we have a “device-less” option that uses an AI algorithm or something, and it usually yields pretty good results. Occasionally will get scalopping around the dome of the liver or the heart… but it usually doesn’t affect planning that much.
 
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It is SHOCKING to me that some don’t do 4DCT. As ive said many times, anyone over 50 in this field should probably be taken out back by Wallner and….. well they should be helped you know.
 
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You're generating a quality 4DCT itv on an n3 lung? Again it's not been my experience that they move a ton and waveforms are pretty crappy because these patients are sick with irregular breathing patterns. Free breathing, end inspiration/expiration scans are another option btw, and not a bad one when the 4DCT isn't happening

I would advise you to look into replacing your 'crappy 4D'. especially since you say you do a lot of lung SBRT.

If you need a pointer, I can send you some of my guys.
 
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