Radiation Oncology Job Market - ACR Webinar

[beamseyeview]

This is just my opinion, but for any residents reading this in the future and considering where to send their research project, here are the meetings listed in descending order based on strength of your research project (there might be other factors that play into your decision):

ASTRO - submit if you feel passionately about the project (including the science) and want to present it to a scientific audience, oral presentations are hard to come by but viewed favorably as a validation of your hard work; pretty hard to network at the meeting but you might get some opportunities randomly through people that you're hanging out with/your attendings -- pay particular attention to evenings/weekends in this regard

ASCO GI/GU/H&N - good for site specific projects; decent networking if you're interested in a particular disease site

ARS - submit if you are not super passionate about the project and/or the data quality are weak to moderate, orals are pretty easy to get assuming that your project was somewhat worth doing in the first place. You can maximize a middle-of-the-road project and get an excellent vacation in the process (particularly if your program is paying for you to go). Also good if you are interested in academics and want some good networking (I agree with the above -- you can get a decent amount of face-time with the "giants" of our field here, particularly if you enjoy upscale activities such as golfing, etc)

ACRO - very little science actually presented at this meeting. Plus I think its in Orlando every year? a pass for me personally

RSNA, ASCO - would be interested to hear others' opinions about these meetings

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[medgator]

RSNA, ASCO - would be interested to hear others' opinions about these meetings

Rsna used to be where the rejected ASTRO presentations/posters used to go? I think it used to automatically submit there if you got rejected from ASTRO. Seemed more radiology focused to me... Every year in the McCormick center in Chicago

 

[seper]

I still wonder if in-person medical meetings are going to come back at all; if they do, in what shape? It's hard to imaging a classic poster session any time soon.
To add to the list above, good places to send RadOnc posters and to walk around them with a beer were AAPM and Miami Breast Conference.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I still wonder if in-person medical meetings are going to come back at all; if they do, in what shape? It's hard to imaging a classic poster session any time soon.
To add to the list above, good places to send RadOnc posters and to walk around them with a beer were AAPM and Miami Breast Conference.

Yeah I have a hard time believing we'll see in-person meetings again until/unless a vaccine is developed and deployed, maybe summer 2021 at the earliest? Then you're probably going to have to contend with tightened travel budgets due to lost RVUs etc, logistical issues with furloughed/laid off staff etc, the list goes on.

Perhaps ASTRO 2021 returns as an in-person meeting, though it might be a hybrid meeting with less attendance overall - it might be a few years till we see a return of the mega-meetings (I can't imagine we'll lose them forever, the all-expenses paid vacation is too big a feature of the academic world).

 

[Mandelin Rain]

This is just my opinion, but for any residents reading this in the future and considering where to send their research project, here are the meetings listed in descending order based on strength of your research project (there might be other factors that play into your decision):

ASTRO - submit if you feel passionately about the project (including the science) and want to present it to a scientific audience, oral presentations are hard to come by but viewed favorably as a validation of your hard work; pretty hard to network at the meeting but you might get some opportunities randomly through people that you're hanging out with/your attendings -- pay particular attention to evenings/weekends in this regard

ASCO GI/GU/H&N - good for site specific projects; decent networking if you're interested in a particular disease site

ARS - submit if you are not super passionate about the project and/or the data quality are weak to moderate, orals are pretty easy to get assuming that your project was somewhat worth doing in the first place. You can maximize a middle-of-the-road project and get an excellent vacation in the process (particularly if your program is paying for you to go). Also good if you are interested in academics and want some good networking (I agree with the above -- you can get a decent amount of face-time with the "giants" of our field here, particularly if you enjoy upscale activities such as golfing, etc)

ACRO - very little science actually presented at this meeting. Plus I think its in Orlando every year? a pass for me personally

RSNA, ASCO - would be interested to hear others' opinions about these meetings

I have presented at all of these meetings except main ASCO.

I’d rank
1. ASTRO Head and Neck-small, good science, good venue
2. ASCO GI-same as above
3. ARS-better networking and venue, worse science
4. ASTRO-much self congratulating, mediocre locales on average, a hundred things going on at once
5. ACRO- super low key version of astro. Actually kind of enjoyable if better presentations
6. RSNA- worthless for rad onc

If neuro bent, try SNO. Otherwise, if department will pay, shoot the moon and go ESTRO.

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

I have presented at all of these meetings except main ASCO.

I’d rank
1. ASTRO Head and Neck-small, good science, good venue
2. ASCO GI-same as above
3. ARS-better networking and venue, worse science
4. ASTRO-much self congratulating, mediocre locales on average, a hundred things going on at once
5. ACRO- super low key version of astro. Actually kind of enjoyable if better presentations
6. RSNA- worthless for rad onc

If neuro bent, try SNO. Otherwise, if department will pay, shoot the moon and go ESTRO. This worked well for me once.

I HIGHLY recommend SNO - probably the most educational conference I've been to.

 

[radoncgrad2019]

Never go to a conference in Florida

 

[Bequerel]

Recent Jobs - American Society for Radiation Oncology

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Is this ‘new 21c’?

 

[evilbooyaa]

I have presented at all of these meetings except main ASCO.

I’d rank
1. ASTRO Head and Neck-small, good science, good venue
2. ASCO GI-same as above
3. ARS-better networking and venue, worse science
4. ASTRO-much self congratulating, mediocre locales on average, a hundred things going on at once
5. ACRO- super low key version of astro. Actually kind of enjoyable if better presentations
6. RSNA- worthless for rad onc

If neuro bent, try SNO. Otherwise, if department will pay, shoot the moon and go ESTRO. This worked well for me once.

ASCO GI was full of crap phase I/II trials of systemic therapy for 1st, 2nd, 8th line metastatic whatever whatever adenocarcinoma for my taste. At least what gets orals. Seems like a primarily med-onc driven conference (very ASCO GI, not very ASTRO GI)

ASTRO is where the most interesting stuff that doesn't end up at main ASCO is. People will care about at least half of the plenary sessions from ASTRO on essentially a yearly basis. The issue is that the ASTRO posters are too numerous to be able to actually pay attention to. But the smaller oral sessions have some interesting stuff as well.

ACRO is a super laid back version of ASTRO. Posters aren't useful but someof the orals weren't bad. Not a bad conference, with a couple of big name FACRO's running around that one can 'network' with.

 

[medgator]

Recent Jobs - American Society for Radiation Oncology

View jobs available on American Society for Radiation Oncology. Search for and apply to open jobs from American Society for Radiation Oncology.

careers.astro.org

Is this ‘new 21c’?

It's the original founders trying to compete with 21C now

21c ?

Given all of the chaos at 21 C would anyone consider working there?

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[deleted774703]

Interesting meeting discussion

I’ve presented at all the big meetings but none of the site specific meetings

1st of all, location trumps science any day

2nd, ASCO by far is the best conference for science, not even close competition. It’s super overwhelming and you will miss 98% of things going on but it’s absolutely where game changing trials are at

3rd, ESTRO is 100% the best meeting overall In terms of science + location. Very few depts pay for this and def not after COVID

ASTRO hit or miss locations:
2020 - MIA A+
2019 - Chi A-
2018 - San Antonio D
2017 - San Diego A+
2016 - Boston B+

ACRO trash meeting and yes Orlando every other year

SNO is the same 10 radoncs over and over. Minesh Mehta and his crew etc. not the friendliest. But good meeting

RSNA who the F would go to this. It’s December in Chicago every year. PASS

 

[medgator]

Interesting meeting discussion

I’ve presented at all the big meetings but none of the site specific meetings

1st of all, location trumps science any day

2nd, ASCO by far is the best conference for science, not even close competition. It’s super overwhelming and you will miss 98% of things going on but it’s absolutely where game changing trials are at

3rd, ESTRO is 100% the best meeting overall In terms of science + location. Very few depts pay for this and def not after COVID

ASTRO hit or miss locations:
2020 - MIA A+
2019 - Chi A-
2018 - San Antonio D
2017 - San Diego A+
2016 - Boston B+

ACRO trash meeting and yes Orlando every other year

SNO is the same 10 radoncs over and over. Minesh Mehta and his crew etc. not the friendliest. But good meeting

RSNA who the F would go to this. It’s December in Chicago every year. PASS

Pretty spot on... Kinda like the important RO articles end up in JCO, not IJROBP.
Edit: acro used to be pretty good about feeding you at the meeting, not sure how it has been lately. Sometimes they do it in ft Lauderdale

 

[radoncgrad2019]

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

FWIW the p-values and CI quoted in the abstract can't be reconciled with one another. Somethings not right.

 

[seper]

NRG meeting in July is still listed as happening in-person. I guess there is a chance people will travel and attend.

Future NRG Oncology Meeting Dates

 

[radoncgrad2019]

can't imagine that lasts.

 

[deleted774703]

can't imagine that lasts.

Agree will change

ESTRO also scheduled for July and just announced they were pushing back to November

I’ve never been to NRG. How is it? Seems like a niche meeting

 

[radoncgrad2019]

never been, but my understanding is that it's very niche. Mostly for people to network and if interested try to participate in disease-specific groups, but of course very political and for people deeply rooted in academics. Not really of much use for most of us.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Interesting meeting discussion

I’ve presented at all the big meetings but none of the site specific meetings

1st of all, location trumps science any day

2nd, ASCO by far is the best conference for science, not even close competition. It’s super overwhelming and you will miss 98% of things going on but it’s absolutely where game changing trials are at

3rd, ESTRO is 100% the best meeting overall In terms of science + location. Very few depts pay for this and def not after COVID

ASTRO hit or miss locations:
2020 - MIA A+
2019 - Chi A-
2018 - San Antonio D
2017 - San Diego A+
2016 - Boston B+

ACRO trash meeting and yes Orlando every other year

SNO is the same 10 radoncs over and over. Minesh Mehta and his crew etc. not the friendliest. But good meeting

RSNA who the F would go to this. It’s December in Chicago every year. PASS

agree SD and miami were fantastic. I think miami is a great location, just please don’t pick subpar locations like anywhere in South.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Agreed that location trumps all when it comes to conferences.

2020 - Miami
2019 - Chicago
2018 - San Antonio
2017 - San Diego
2016 - Boston
2015 - San Antonio
2014 - San Francisco
2013 - Atlanta
2012 - Boston
2011 - Miami

I am not a big fan of Miami personally, but I know many are. Give me two out of past 10 years for ASTRO (SD and SF). The rest are pretty much a hard pass for me.

 

[medgator]

agree SD and miami were fantastic. I think miami is a great location, just please don’t pick subpar locations like anywhere in South.

Miami is in the "south". There's a saying about FL though.... Only place you can go where the more North you travel, the more "southern" it gets

 

[thecarbonionangle]

Miami is in the "south". There's a saying about FL though.... Only place you can go where the more North you travel, the more "southern" it gets

yes what i meant was that atlanta and SA are truly aweful locations imo. Southern florida isnt very “southern” to my experience

 

[medgator]

yes what i meant was that atlanta and SA are truly aweful locations imo. Southern florida isnt very “southern” to my experience

Didn't mind the River Walk.. not sure why Astro feels the need to lock themselves into a few locations though, many of which are snoozers like Atlanta and Chicago

Plenty of families love Orlando, good chance for the kids to hit the theme parks (pre covid). Vegas would be another good choice with a large convention center. Maybe even go Canuck and try out Toronto or Montreal (before fall of course)

 

[radoncgrad2019]

if I ever wanted to torture someone, I would send them to the San Antonio Riverwalk.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

The Riverwalk is a bit shocking in how completely easy it would be to drown in.

Alcohol + narrow path + crowds + blind winding turns + sheer drop into river = 20k drownings a year, I presume

(I have no idea if it's deep enough to drown in)

 

[deleted774703]

Didn't mind the River Walk.. not sure why Astro feels the need to lock themselves into a few locations though, many of which are snoozers like Atlanta and Chicago

Plenty of families love Orlando, good chance for the kids to hit the theme parks (pre covid). Vegas would be another good choice with a large convention center. Maybe even go Canuck and try out Toronto or Montreal (before fall of course)

That would be impressive! But Toronto in September October not as much fun

 

[thecarbonionangle]

The Riverwalk is a bit shocking in how completely easy it would be to drown in.

Alcohol + narrow path + crowds + blind winding turns + sheer drop into river = 20k drownings a year, I presume

depends on how many margs you deep in

 

[Neuronix]

The Riverwalk is a bit shocking in how completely easy it would be to drown in.

Alcohol + narrow path + crowds + blind winding turns + sheer drop into river = 20k drownings a year, I presume

(I have no idea if it's deep enough to drown in)

Google says 4-6 feet. So probably you'll get out unless you manage to pass out into it.

Also, San Antonio is possibly the worst place to have a conference. Attendance drops every year it's held there. Why do you do this ASTRO?

 

[Mandelin Rain]

I bet at least a dozen of these poorly photoshopped people died that day. Lungs filled with green, putrid Riverwalk water (and the various detritus it contains).

 

[Gfunk6]

Maybe it would be a good year to move the "remote" ASTRO meeting to San Antonio. We could go to Miami in 2021

 

[deleted774703]

yes what i meant was that atlanta and SA are truly aweful locations imo. Southern florida isnt very “southern” to my experience

Okay lets not put ATL in the same boat as San Antonio

The highlight of SA for me was cruising in LIME Scooters hahaha

ATL has great food/bar/club scene in contrast

But neither as good as Miami!

Support @Gfunk6 idea of "switching" ASTRO 2020 to San Antonio magically haha

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Okay lets not put ATL in the same boat as San Antonio

The highlight of SA for me was cruising in LIME Scooters hahaha

ATL has great food/bar/club scene in contrast

But neither as good as Miami!

Support @Gfunk6 idea of "switching" ASTRO 2020 to San Antonio magically haha

Those scooters WERE THE BEST.

 

[Gfunk6]

Miami 2011 was the my first year as an attending. It was an amazing experience - could sleep in late, party all night, spend quality time in the exhibitor hall, and only going to talks/presentations that were germane to my interests and needs. Didn't have to worry about impressing anyone, curtailing costs, or have to please big brother. Magical times . . . was REALLY looking forward to go back this year.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Miami 2011 was the my first year as an attending. It was an amazing experience - could sleep in late, party all night, spend quality time in the exhibitor hall, and only going to talks/presentations that were germane to my interests and needs. Didn't have to worry about impressing anyone, curtailing costs, or have to please big brother. Magical times . . . was REALLY looking forward to go back this year.

I went there as a resident that year and by far the best ASTRO conference I ever attended. Damn you COVID-19 AKA Carol Baskins!

 

[Mandelin Rain]

My favorite ASTRO was LA in 07(?).

I think it was the last of the blow out industry parties where everything was comped. Great time to be a poor resident.

 

[medgator]

My favorite ASTRO was LA in 07(?).

I think it was the last of the blow out industry parties where everything was comped. Great time to be a poor resident.

Might have been around then where they toned down the parties and started charging to go to them (donations iirc, technically for charity).

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Might have been around then where they toned down the parties and started charging to go to them (donations iirc, technically for charity).

I think the Varian party was at Grauman's Chinese Theater. Plenty of young women handing out plenty of brown liquor. Good times.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I think the Varian party was at Grauman's Chinese Theater. Plenty of young women handing out plenty of brown liquor. Good times.

The glory days! I envy my chairs (yes I had multiple ones).

 

[FreeRT]

This is just my opinion, but for any residents reading this in the future and considering where to send their research project, here are the meetings listed in descending order based on strength of your research project (there might be other factors that play into your decision):

ASTRO - submit if you feel passionately about the project (including the science) and want to present it to a scientific audience, oral presentations are hard to come by but viewed favorably as a validation of your hard work; pretty hard to network at the meeting but you might get some opportunities randomly through people that you're hanging out with/your attendings -- pay particular attention to evenings/weekends in this regard

ASCO GI/GU/H&N - good for site specific projects; decent networking if you're interested in a particular disease site

ARS - submit if you are not super passionate about the project and/or the data quality are weak to moderate, orals are pretty easy to get assuming that your project was somewhat worth doing in the first place. You can maximize a middle-of-the-road project and get an excellent vacation in the process (particularly if your program is paying for you to go). Also good if you are interested in academics and want some good networking (I agree with the above -- you can get a decent amount of face-time with the "giants" of our field here, particularly if you enjoy upscale activities such as golfing, etc)

ACRO - very little science actually presented at this meeting. Plus I think its in Orlando every year? a pass for me personally

RSNA, ASCO - would be interested to hear others' opinions about these meetings

To put some perspective for ARS, the science and data quality are critical if you are competing for a resident essay award and travel grant--these are generous awards. Agree it's not as important if you're just accepted for a poster.

Easy to demonize RSNA since it's primary DR and in Chicago every year when temperatures drop. I went just because I had family there. Nevertheless, 2 former ASTRO presidents were also president of RSNA (David Hussey and Sarah Donaldson) and there are RO tracks and more opportunities for oral presentations and moderating a session. The exhibit hall rocks with a ton of vendors and the atmosphere is pretty festive. So although the RO attendance is small, it again gives you a better chance to get to know your RO colleagues better and party with DR's. Unlike ACR which is heavy on health policy and advocacy, RSNA is more research oriented.

ACRO was Luther Brady's protest against the ACR (although he remained an active ACR member his whole life and attended their annual mtgs until his passing). It was also formed to address the lack of ASTRO's involvement in health policy, since ASTRO was heavily research oriented (of course, that's changed and ASTRO's come a long way). ACRO has stronger private practice membership and has provided lots of resources in terms of billing, coding, and policy (Ron DiGiamo of RevenueCycle is there every year and is a major supporter). Again, you get a smaller, more intimate meeting with the ability to network more intimately. They also offer travel grants to residents--based on the quality of the research. Nevertheless, the leadership within ACRO has been heavy on 21st C RO's, the reason why the mtgs are always in Florida (to serve all the 21st C practices on the Eastern seaboard. I miss the days when they would have mtgs on the west coast (2007 in Coronado Beach was awesome).

I would take San Antonio any day over an ASTRO mtg in New England. Boston in 2012 was a total disaster. A fall mtg, esp Oct, runs too close to winter storms in the NE. Both times I was in San Antonio, everything was within walking or Lime scooter distance. Food was great and there were plenty of venues outside the Riverwalk--if you're afraid of falling in. Hotel rooms were very affordable. I spent a fortune Ubering everywhere b/c everything in Chicago is so spread out. In any case, I wouldn't mind having a meeting in Denver (it's been a while--2005), New Orleans (1999?), Houston, Dallas, Las Vegas, Seattle--Eastern Standard Time is tough to adjust to. Los Angeles was a blast, and I'm always game for San Diego--easy to adjust to west coast time.

 

[FreeRT]

RADIATION ONCOLOGY JOB MARKET CONCERNS

Featuring an esteemed Radiation Oncology panel for a live Q&A Interview Q&A interview

Wed, Jun 3, 2020 5-6pm EST / 4-5pm CST / 2-3pm PST

Register:

https://register.gotowebinar.com/register/2895393853909612557

The panelists have been identified:

 

[RadOncMegatron]

The panelists have been identified:
View attachment 306621

Not a bad crew. Much better than I thought.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Over/under on “respectful disagreements” between panelists during webinar set at 2.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Not a bad crew. Much better than I thought.

All will state their opinions based on their own limited experiences. We need data

 

[GapCalc]

Just in case anyone wants to register, here is a clickable link: https://register.gotowebinar.com/register/2895393853909612557

 

[Mandelin Rain]

The data that will "prove" dramatic oversupply is exactly what we're trying to avoid by acting now. This is a big ship and it takes at least 5 years to turn it. If you wait for the bottom to completely fall out, 5 years worth of good doctors are destined to suffer needlessly.

This is all the data I need to know there is a problem:
1. Residency positions have doubled in the past decade or so.
2. Treatment fractions have declined by 50% or more (if not eliminated completely) in the most common indications for radiation
3. Unaccredited fellowship positions (most of dubious merit) have dramatically increased over the past decade
4. Treatment supervision is no longer, in and of itself, an indication to hire in the vast majority of practices
5. Smart medical students have looked at 1-4 and (correctly, IMO) synthesized that this field is in real trouble and are actively avoiding

Why smart attending physicians can't synthesize the same is mind boggling.

This is setting aside threats to reimbursement, shifting practice models, increased competition for services (IR, immunotherapy). Just those 5 "data" points above tell the story. First step is admitting you have a problem. Just do it already. Clearly, publicly, and definitively, so that you can begin working on solutions.

 

[medgator]

Not a bad crew. Much better than I thought.

80% academics including one that is pretty aloof on job market and expansion concerns. I wish they had taken simul up on their offer, although maybe they were striving to represent where most of the jobs are these days....

 

[TheIllusionist]

The data that will "prove" dramatic oversupply is exactly what we're trying to avoid by acting now. This is a big ship and it takes at least 5 years to turn it. If you wait for the bottom to completely fall out, 5 years worth of good doctors are destined to suffer needlessly.

This is all the data I need to know there is a problem:
1. Residency positions have double in the past decade or so.
2. Treatment fractions have declined by 50% or more (if not eliminated completely) in the most common indications for radiation
3. Fellowship positions (most of dubious merit) have dramatically increased over the past decade
4. Treatment supervision is no longer, in and of itself, an indication to hire in the vast majority of practices
5. Smart medical students have looked at 1-4 and (correctly, IMO) synthesized that this field is in real trouble

Why smart attending physicians can't synthesize the same is mind boggling.

yup. hence my departure to IM

 

[RadOncMegatron]

80% academics including one that is pretty aloof on job market and expansion concerns. I wish they had taken simul up on their offer, although maybe they were striving to represent where most of the jobs are these days....

Agreed

 

[OTN]

I'm underwhelemed - 80% academic, including one who specifically has been called out for gaslighting medical students and residents. Will still go in with an open mind.

 

[BobbyHeenan]

I'm underwhelemed - 80% academic, including one who specifically has been called out for gaslighting medical students and residents. Will still go in with an open mind.