podiatric medical school or just medical school?

[OSUDDS]

with my 24 and GPA i was actually gauranteed acceptance into medical school. thanks for caring though.
about the name calling - i call them like i see them. sorry bud.

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[Dr_Feelgood]

My advice is to ignore these two. If you search the past threads, they come in and say the same crap everytime. They don't learn from the conversations b/c they make the same ignorant statements everytime. They are only here to flame the fire.

So please continue the conversation/debate w/o addressing either of them. If they post, ignore it.

 

[IlizaRob]

Anyways, I am sorry that I hurt your feelings by calling you a podiatrist... geesh.:confused:

Wow Bill, you're an attending? you have contributed 9 posts already to this thread since the last time I logged onto SDN. Do you work? I have to say welcome back because its been a while but your post above Im sorry to say, really insulted your intelligence. Didnt you ever take a communications or logics class in college?

Anyway, here is just a thought about the terminology of podiatry. Perhaps, and I say perhaps because I dont know if its true, recent podiatric graduates from 3 year surgical programs want to be referred to as something different than just a podiatrist. I say this because for many years in the past, "podiatrists" have been known to be nail clippers and orthotic prescribers. Today podiatrists are doing major reconstructive surgery of the foot and ankle. Yes Bill, Im talking about IM nails through the tibia and the use of external fixator frames. Jonwill can give his experiences. If you are trained to do this kind of work, the last thing you want to be associated with is a "nail clipper". I find it similar to a dentist vs an orthodontist or even a OMFS, both of whom received more training than the general dentist. So, they call themselves an "orthodontist" or an "oral surgeon" rather than a "dentist" eventhough they all have the same degree, DDS (I know some OMFS programs also offer the MD and some dont).

One recent grad from a 3 year surgical residency told me that he is not a podiatrist, but a foot and ankle surgeon. While it doesnt matter to me whether I am called a podiatrist or something else (what I do wont change), I can certainly understand the frustration that some feel after being thought of as a toenail clipper when they just went through 7 years of post grad trianing that included fixation of pilon fractures and Charcot reconstruction. Just a thought.

You are welcome to debate Bill, but try to keep an open mind on things. I think you're placing too much stress on yourself with all the internet bickering.

 

[gustydoc]

 

[WoodyJI]

during arguments some of us have to resort to lying and name-calling, while others use our reason and intellect. i guess it is easier to do the former when you are fighting a losing battle. you must be still sore from the rejections. Don't really, podiatry will be a wonderful career for you... as soon as you get that chip off your shoulder. your other option of course would be to retake the MCAT or DAT again. if you can increase that 24 a few points, i'm sure you would be able to get into some medical school. perhaps then you wouldnt be so angry.

I had a feeling that this thread could strike a nerve with some people in this particular forum, and I'm sad to see that things have started to get out of hand. I don't see people having a discussion about the main topic anymore--only picking apart billclinton's admittedly bad parable & putting each other down...

We're all smart people here, so we can all see that billclinton was for the most part right when he laid out how a conversation with the public would start. As we read further, it became obvious that he didn't do his research for the 2nd half of the conversation--you all were quick to jump on the flaws--but perhaps what some of you missed was that he was probably trying to jerk your chain a little. You really shouldn't have taken the bait (it doesn't look good for you).

It occurred to me earlier today that, you know, maybe the answer to this discussion is simply taking the high road. The sentiment some people expressed about "doesn't matter what you call yourself/are called as long as we give the patient the best care...this stuff is all just ego...big deal...what's the difference..." I sort of bought this argument at first--I mean honestly, do these kinds of discussions really amount to more than a hill of beans? Then I realized that it's about respect--not just for the patient, but for people smarter than the average joe. We all need to respect MD's--every single one of them. Period. If they're good people (and most of us in health care are), then they'll respect us back!

Why would you think that by saying one is a medical student would be talking yourself up. Podiatric school is medical school and one can therefore refer to him/herself as a medical students, DO students don't call themselves osteopathic students. And also are you saying that podiatry is an incompetent field that one would need to say medical student as opposed to podiatric student to be high and mighty. It is unfortunate that these old egotistic beliefs are still common in the student community.

Med students find it disrespectful when podiatry students don't refer to themselves as podiatry students...it really is that simple, folks. Don't do it. I don't care that you go to "Willy Wonka's University of Science and Medicine" and sit right in some of the same classes with professor Wonka and the rest of the med students. Your curriculum is fundamentally different on the whole. If you were in "medical school" (as you like to say you are), then you'd be an MD (read Doctor of Medicine). DO students call themselves osteopathic students, and even if some of them do call themselves med students, how does that give you the right to misrepresent yourself also? Nobody said anything about podiatry being an incompetent field--you said that.

A man cannot speak but he judges himself. With his will, or against his will, he draws his portrait to the eye of his companions by every word. Every opinion reacts on him who utters it. It is a thread-ball thrown at a mark, but the other end remains in the thrower's bag. Or, rather, it is a harpoon hurled at the whale, unwinding, as it flies, a coil of cord in the boat, and if the harpoon is not good, or not well thrown, it will go nigh to cut the steersman in twain, or to sink the boat. -Ralph Waldo Emerson, Compensation.

 

[krabmas]

I had a feeling that this thread could strike a nerve with some people in this particular forum, and I'm sad to see that things have started to get out of hand. I don't see people having a discussion about the main topic anymore--only picking apart billclinton's admittedly bad parable & putting each other down...

We're all smart people here, so we can all see that billclinton was for the most part right when he laid out how a conversation with the public would start. As we read further, it became obvious that he didn't do his research for the 2nd half of the conversation--you all were quick to jump on the flaws--but perhaps what some of you missed was that he was probably trying to jerk your chain a little. You really shouldn't have taken the bait (it doesn't look good for you).

It occurred to me earlier today that, you know, maybe the answer to this discussion is simply taking the high road. The sentiment some people expressed about "doesn't matter what you call yourself/are called as long as we give the patient the best care...this stuff is all just ego...big deal...what's the difference..." I sort of bought this argument at first--I mean honestly, do these kinds of discussions really amount to more than a hill of beans? Then I realized that it's about respect--not just for the patient, but for people smarter than the average joe. We all need to respect MD's--every single one of them. Period. If they're good people (and most of us in health care are), then they'll respect us back!

Med students find it disrespectful when podiatry students don't refer to themselves as podiatry students...it really is that simple, folks. Don't do it. I don't care that you go to "Willy Wonka's University of Science and Medicine" and sit right in some of the same classes with professor Wonka and the rest of the med students. Your curriculum is fundamentally different on the whole. If you were in "medical school" (as you like to say you are), then you'd be an MD (read Doctor of Medicine). DO students call themselves osteopathic students, and even if some of them do call themselves med students, how does that give you the right to misrepresent yourself also? Nobody said anything about podiatry being an incompetent field--you said that.

A man cannot speak but he judges himself. With his will, or against his will, he draws his portrait to the eye of his companions by every word. Every opinion reacts on him who utters it. It is a thread-ball thrown at a mark, but the other end remains in the thrower's bag. Or, rather, it is a harpoon hurled at the whale, unwinding, as it flies, a coil of cord in the boat, and if the harpoon is not good, or not well thrown, it will go nigh to cut the steersman in twain, or to sink the boat. -Ralph Waldo Emerson, Compensation.

1st - why are you so passionate about this topic? Would you also like to say that you go to med school? not being an _ss, just an honest question.

2nd - How do you know what we learn in pod school? How do you know that our curriculum is "fundamentally" different? We have 2 years of basic science and 2 years of clinical rotations. That is "fundementally" the same as medical school.

I have stayed out of this conversation because I do not care what people call it and I am no longer in school so it does not affect me.

But I have a story to tell...

I was visiting a program where MD and DPM residents both rotate thru the wound center.

I met one of the residents and ask her where she went to school. I was not sure yet if she was a DPM or MD resident. She said she went to med school in philly. I asked which school she said Temple. Then I thought to myself for a minute. Then asked, oh, so you are a podiatry resident? She said yes.

So if you walk around saying that you go to med school and not podiatric med school it can become confusing.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Med students find it disrespectful when podiatry students don't refer to themselves as podiatry students...it really is that simple, folks. Don't do it. I don't care that you go to "Willy Wonka's University of Science and Medicine" and sit right in some of the same classes with professor Wonka and the rest of the med students. Your curriculum is fundamentally different on the whole. If you were in "medical school" (as you like to say you are), then you'd be an MD (read Doctor of Medicine). DO students call themselves osteopathic students, and even if some of them do call themselves med students, how does that give you the right to misrepresent yourself also? Nobody said anything about podiatry being an incompetent field--you said that.

A man cannot speak but he judges himself. With his will, or against his will, he draws his portrait to the eye of his companions by every word. Every opinion reacts on him who utters it. It is a thread-ball thrown at a mark, but the other end remains in the thrower's bag. Or, rather, it is a harpoon hurled at the whale, unwinding, as it flies, a coil of cord in the boat, and if the harpoon is not good, or not well thrown, it will go nigh to cut the steersman in twain, or to sink the boat. -Ralph Waldo Emerson, Compensation.

I must disagree with you on this point. I have not interacted w/ a MD or DO student that has acted offended when I am introduced as a med student, which happens everyday. I can understand the confusion from an outside view but when you are seeing patients, whether it be in-patients, office visits, out-patient surgery, no one is going to take the time to say Chris, Paul and Bill are med students, Gary and Ted are podiatric students. It is a waste of time. So if the attendings (MD's mainly but some DOs) at the hospitals I've been at introduce me as a med student that is good enough for me. Most patients don't give a rat's @ss. I could be an interpretive dancer for all they care. Also, most people don't know the difference. When I am with podiatrist I introduce as a podiatry student and every time I am ask what area of medicine am I going into. I've had nurses ask me. I politely say "podiatry."

P.S. I have a lot of DO friends and they never say "I'm an osteopathic student." It is always "I'm a med student."

 

[Feli]

So do you guys think I should cancel my order for custom "FOOT MD" license plates?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

So do you guys think I should cancel my order for custom "FOOT MD" license plates?

 

[cool_vkb]

Med students find it disrespectful when podiatry students don't refer to themselves as podiatry students...it really is that simple, folks. Don't do it. I don't care that you go to "Willy Wonka's University of Science and Medicine" and sit right in some of the same classes with professor Wonka and the rest of the med students. Your curriculum is fundamentally different on the whole. If you were in "medical school" (as you like to say you are), then you'd be an MD (read Doctor of Medicine). DO students call themselves osteopathic students, and even if some of them do call themselves med students, how does that give you the right to misrepresent yourself also? Nobody said anything about podiatry being an incompetent field--you said that.

A man cannot speak but he judges himself. With his will, or against his will, he draws his portrait to the eye of his companions by every word. Every opinion reacts on him who utters it. It is a thread-ball thrown at a mark, but the other end remains in the thrower's bag. Or, rather, it is a harpoon hurled at the whale, unwinding, as it flies, a coil of cord in the boat, and if the harpoon is not good, or not well thrown, it will go nigh to cut the steersman in twain, or to sink the boat. -Ralph Waldo Emerson, Compensation.

Man first of all i dont understand what kind of Podatry students exposure you ever had. Why would a Podiatry Student act as if he is in Med school. Yeah we may argue over our training and courses but i dont believe you that there will be Pod students who would be like saying oh we go to Medical school and we are real medical doctors doing cardiology or gynecology. That is total bull..... . You are MDs , we are Pods. End of story! Next time a Podiatrist students says you that oh we go to medical school and are MDs this then plzzzzzz take his video and post it. I sincerely request you because iam really fed up of reading these stupid silly posts by Med students & premeds who judge Podiatry students. I do believe that a Pod students wud say he goes to Pod med school and is doing Podiatric Medicine as his speciality but he has knowledge in other subjects and rotations.

There are just 8 pod schools. Where in the earth do you get to interact with Podiatry Students? that you are so experienced on their way of life or subjects or talking. This is so lame. That guy bill , he is one more unique sample. He goes ga ga ga ga in every forum and starts his same rant.

Dont you guys have other better things to do in your life then to roam here and there. I mean common man, you guys are MD students. Show some class! why are you acting like some street troublemakers looking to pickup arguments. Had this happened in our one forum i would have taken this as a legible argument. But that bill guy roams in every forum doing mischief and irritating people. This is beyond my understanding. How in the earth you guys even manage to take out time to roam forums and write long long posts.

 

[YellowRose]

just for kicks, i went to google and typed in "physician": this is what i found at the top:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

then googled "Medical Student", and Harvard Medical school came up first, but the second site was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_school



When i was rounding with the team, i always introduced everyone as Dr so and so, he/she is an intern and will be taking care of you. i never made a distinction among the patients. but when introducing to nurses, medical staff, i did emphasize the podiatry aspect of it. This is both for my protection, and yours. I didn't want nurses coming to you and asking you to make medical decisions, ordering labs, ordering CT's, X-rays, etc without me overseeing your work.

Outside the hospital, its really harmless if you say you went to medical school, but i'd be careful saying that in the hospital setting. Nurses will assume you are an MD/DO, pull you into a room for a code or call you about a crashing patient. I don't think it's a liability or responsibility you want.

 

[billclinton]

I must disagree with you on this point. I have not interacted w/ a MD or DO student that has acted offended when I am introduced as a med student, which happens everyday. I can understand the confusion from an outside view but when you are seeing patients, whether it be in-patients, office visits, out-patient surgery, no one is going to take the time to say Chris, Paul and Bill are med students, Gary and Ted are podiatric students. It is a waste of time. So if the attendings (MD's mainly but some DOs) at the hospitals I've been at introduce me as a med student that is good enough for me. Most patients don't give a rat's @ss. I could be an interpretive dancer for all they care. Also, most people don't know the difference. When I am with podiatrist I introduce as a podiatry student and every time I am ask what area of medicine am I going into. I've had nurses ask me. I politely say "podiatry."

P.S. I have a lot of DO friends and they never say "I'm an osteopathic student." It is always "I'm a med student."

Do you feel like a real physician when they call you a medical student? heh. If you guys do not believe my position just go form a poll in the medical student forums (not the PODIATRY forum). If you have never heard anynoe question you about it, that is because they are being polite. I can guarentee they are laughing behind your back though. You guys can whine and moan all you want. If you wanted the title, you should have gotten your grades and test scores up and applied to medical school.

When someone says they are a physican, medical student, or that they went to medical school people immediately think "MD or DO". Which is why the few pods here that keep posting like to be called these things... they like to try and make people think they are a MD/DO or that they have similar training. Most of the pods here have posted that they do not do this... but there are a few that definitely do it and like people to think that they are MD/DO. Is this really ethical though? I am glad to see that a majority of pods are not like that... in real life experience, it is only every once inawhile that I run into a pod who is like this. They are almost always still students and almsot always med school rejects though. I am guessing that is the case here...

 

[WoodyJI]

1st - why are you so passionate about this topic? Would you also like to say that you go to med school? not being an _ss, just an honest question.

Since inquiring minds want to know: this topic interests me because I have complete respect for my friends who are working towards their MDs, as well as those promoting the profession of podiatry. I know that each of our programs is challenging in its own right, but certainly we are all aware of the fact that med school is the most difficult profession one can pursue in health care. I believe that anyone who misrepresents themselves as a medical student (even if it's "just for simplicity's sake") not only disrespects true med students, but also fails to promote their own profession. I think that's a shame when someone does that. We all have a responsibility not only to serve the unique need for which our specific profession was developed, but also to avoid stepping on the toes of those other doctors/professionals with whom we work. In short, it's a matter of respect.

2nd - How do you know what we learn in pod school? How do you know that our curriculum is "fundamentally" different? We have 2 years of basic science and 2 years of clinical rotations. That is "fundementally" the same as medical school.

You're right: I don't actually know what you learn in pod school, but you already know that. If I magically revealed that I had already practiced podiatry for 3 years or something before going to optometry school, would I need that experience to lend weight to my case? No, I wouldn't. I know that on the most basic level, podiatry school is NOT medical school--it's podiatry school. So I don't know why you would want to say that they're fundamentally the same thing. I would imagine that you, being someone who has gone all the way through the program, would prefer to stand your profession on its own two feet (no pun intended)--apart from medicine. Shouldn't you be infinitely more aware of just what it is that makes podiatry so great? That is what I take issue with here. I see it as a sign of insecurity on the part of those podiatry students who don't mind fudging the distinction between medicine and podiatry. I have the same problem with optometrists who try to call themselves "optometric physicians" or anybody who uses that kind of puffery. Really, what's so hard about saying "podiatry school" and "podiatry student"? People will understand.

 

[WoodyJI]

I must disagree with you on this point. I have not interacted w/ a MD or DO student that has acted offended when I am introduced as a med student, which happens everyday. I can understand the confusion from an outside view but when you are seeing patients, whether it be in-patients, office visits, out-patient surgery, no one is going to take the time to say Chris, Paul and Bill are med students, Gary and Ted are podiatric students. It is a waste of time. So if the attendings (MD's mainly but some DOs) at the hospitals I've been at introduce me as a med student that is good enough for me. Most patients don't give a rat's @ss. I could be an interpretive dancer for all they care. Also, most people don't know the difference. When I am with podiatrist I introduce as a podiatry student and every time I am ask what area of medicine am I going into. I've had nurses ask me. I politely say "podiatry."

P.S. I have a lot of DO friends and they never say "I'm an osteopathic student." It is always "I'm a med student."

Right, well if I were a med student, I wouldn't necessarily go out of my way to make sure that people know that I'm a med student and you're not, etc. I'm just saying that it should bother you when you're called a med student. Not so much that you'd create a scene when with an attending, but in general I think it's good that you try to avoid muddying the waters. I would do the same thing in your shoes--sometimes that's just how you have to play it. This thread is concerned with those who are asking whether or not it's OK to call it "podiatric medical school or just medical school" and I would say, if you have the choice, call it podiatry because what it is.

And with the DO thing, I guess in their case it makes sense. Allopathic med students don't say that they're "allopatic students." Don't try to say that podiatry students can do the same though, because they can't match in to all the medical residencies, only the pod ones.

 

[IlizaRob]

If you guys do not believe my position just go form a poll in the medical student forums (not the PODIATRY forum)

Didnt you already do that Bill? While we're at it, lets poll the members of Al Qaeda about whether or not Americans are the devil...then we'll know the truth.

Seriously Bill, the more I read your posts, the more I cant believe you are an attending. Im sorry, you're going to have to change that.

 

[WoodyJI]

Man first of all i dont understand what kind of Podatry students exposure you ever had...Next time a Podiatrist students says you that oh we go to medical school and are MDs this then plzzzzzz take his video and post it. I sincerely request you because iam really fed up of reading these stupid silly posts by Med students & premeds who judge Podiatry students. I do believe that a Pod students wud say he goes to Pod med school and is doing Podiatric Medicine as his speciality but he has knowledge in other subjects and rotations.

There are just 8 pod schools. Where in the earth do you get to interact with Podiatry Students? that you are so experienced on their way of life or subjects or talking. This is so lame. That guy bill , he is one more unique sample. He goes ga ga ga ga in every forum and starts his same rant.

Um...have you read all of the posts in this thread? Some of your colleagues are saying just that. I don't need to get you a video--look it up yourself.

Dont you guys have other better things to do in your life then to roam here and there. I mean common man, you guys are MD students. Show some class! why are you acting like some street troublemakers looking to pickup arguments. Had this happened in our one forum i would have taken this as a legible argument. But that bill guy roams in every forum doing mischief and irritating people. This is beyond my understanding. How in the earth you guys even manage to take out time to roam forums and write long long posts.

It might surprise you...you know...since there are "just 8 podiatry schools," but my cousin's a podiatry student. There's 'my kind of Podatry students exposure' for you. Otherwise, you're right...I wouldn't be here 'taking out the time to write long long posts.' So there you go.

Let me just say though, that because someone has the hobby of posting on SDN and you'd rather go shoot hoops or whatever with your time doesn't discredit their arguments. You are right in one part though...a lot of those people are just out to irritate others. I hope you don't think the same of me.

 

[PMSIII]

Do you feel like a real physician when they call you a medical student? heh. If you guys do not believe my position just go form a poll in the medical student forums (not the PODIATRY forum). If you have never heard anynoe question you about it, that is because they are being polite. I can guarentee they are laughing behind your back though. You guys can whine and moan all you want. If you wanted the title, you should have gotten your grades and test scores up and applied to medical school.

When someone says they are a physican, medical student, or that they went to medical school people immediately think "MD or DO". Which is why the few pods here that keep posting like to be called these things... they like to try and make people think they are a MD/DO or that they have similar training. Most of the pods here have posted that they do not do this... but there are a few that definitely do it and like people to think that they are MD/DO. Is this really ethical though? I am glad to see that a majority of pods are not like that... in real life experience, it is only every once inawhile that I run into a pod who is like this. They are almost always still students and almsot always med school rejects though. I am guessing that is the case here...

Ok this conversation/exchange is getting really ridiculous so I'll add this as my final thought:

Bill, why do you assume that I have to "raise up my test scores"? Do you happen to have my transcript at hand? I have no problem sharing my scores with you but it'd be silly to do so on a public forum when anyone can make up any numbers as they please. For the record, I have done very well in both the MCAT and my GPA. I know this was addressed as a general statement but I take offence to ignorant blanket statements because not every podiatry student has low scores or an "Med school reject". I don't believe I'm an exception either because quite a few of my colleagues have impressive undergraduate backgrounds.

Another point that I want to make is that you started out the conversation in a civilized manner, perhaps a tad sarcastic but civilized nonetheless - why are you resorting to ignorant blanket statements on my profession? I mean this in the most respectful way possible because I just don't understand what is inspiring this tone. You are supposed to be an attending (per your status on SDN) so I'd like to believe that you carry a more professional attitude with your fellow colleagues and co-workers. We all work on the same team for the benefit of the patient, so why the aggressive tone?

Lastly, I think as much as you've made your point about the difference between curriculums, I think you owe it to yourself to at least investigate or read up on the other side of the argument by actually exploring what our training and education entail. This isn't an invitation to change anyone's view but moreso an opportunity to see why quite a few of our members here share a view opposite to yours.

Best of luck with your endeavours and Good day!

 

[fun8stuff]

Don't these arguments ever get old? By the way... I am not sure if Bill is an attending or not, but I believe he (or she) goes to or works at my school. I have gone to computers and visited SDN where it showed him as still logged in.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Don't these arguments ever get old? By the way... I am not sure if Bill is an attending or not, but I believe he (or she) goes to or works at my school. I have gone to computers and visited SDN where it showed him as still logged in.

Extremely old, but some SDNers like to stir the pot. They generally rotate from DPM to DO to DDS to DPT to NP to OD forums to get off on starting these threads. It is sad really b/c it takes away from SDN. I've complained everytime but the people at SDN never do anything. I'm sorry that a janitor at your school is trying to act like a doctor at SDN (I can make crazy assumptions too). Next, time he is still logged in please write something terrible so we can finally get him tossed.

 

[gustydoc]

When i was rounding with the team, i always introduced everyone as Dr so and so, he/she is an intern and will be taking care of you. i never made a distinction among the patients. but when introducing to nurses, medical staff, i did emphasize the podiatry aspect of it. This is both for my protection, and yours. I didn't want nurses coming to you and asking you to make medical decisions, ordering labs, ordering CT's, X-rays, etc without me overseeing your work.

Outside the hospital, its really harmless if you say you went to medical school, but i'd be careful saying that in the hospital setting. Nurses will assume you are an MD/DO, pull you into a room for a code or call you about a crashing patient. I don't think it's a liability or responsibility you want.

By the way as a fourth year podiatric medical student I order labs, CTs, X-rays etc on a daily basis without anyone overseeing my work. As far running a code, why would you assume that is a responsibilty I would not want? I took the same classes and tests as the DOs at my school for two years and have been rotating in a hospitals all over the country with the medical residents. I am ACLS certified and I would feel totally confident running a code. The podiatric resident I saw run a code on a patient who crashed during surgery did an excellent job and made me proud of the fact that we are trained well enought to handle any situation. I guess perhaps the real problem is that we as podiatrists or students don't do a good enough job of educating all the DOs and MDs out there of just how good (aka equal) our training is. Then again I am too busy practicing medicine podiatric or otherwise to worry about other peoples false assumptions.

 

[billclinton]

Ok this conversation/exchange is getting really ridiculous so I'll add this as my final thought:

Bill, why do you assume that I have to "raise up my test scores"? Do you happen to have my transcript at hand? I have no problem sharing my scores with you but it'd be silly to do so on a public forum when anyone can make up any numbers as they please. For the record, I have done very well in both the MCAT and my GPA. I know this was addressed as a general statement but I take offence to ignorant blanket statements because not every podiatry student has low scores or an "Med school reject". I don't believe I'm an exception either because quite a few of my colleagues have impressive undergraduate backgrounds.

Another point that I want to make is that you started out the conversation in a civilized manner, perhaps a tad sarcastic but civilized nonetheless - why are you resorting to ignorant blanket statements on my profession? I mean this in the most respectful way possible because I just don't understand what is inspiring this tone. You are supposed to be an attending (per your status on SDN) so I'd like to believe that you carry a more professional attitude with your fellow colleagues and co-workers. We all work on the same team for the benefit of the patient, so why the aggressive tone?

Lastly, I think as much as you've made your point about the difference between curriculums, I think you owe it to yourself to at least investigate or read up on the other side of the argument by actually exploring what our training and education entail. This isn't an invitation to change anyone's view but moreso an opportunity to see why quite a few of our members here share a view opposite to yours.

Best of luck with your endeavours and Good day!

Did I say something specifically regarding your grades or test scores? I do not think I did- if I did please correct me. If you reread the post you quoted you will find that I was not making generalized statements and was not labeling you. I was specifically referring to the person that I quoted in the post and the few other pod students who seem to wish the public saw them as physicians who went to medical school. They have a problem- most likely stemming from the fact that they are med school rejects. My message to them is if they have such a problem being called a podiatrist, then perhaps they should reapply to medical school. Obviously what I am saying strikes close to home for them and bothers them because they have not confronted their feelings of rejection.

I am not saying that every pod student is a med school reject, but certainly some are. I know there are many who wanted to pod for the lifestyle, pay, procedures, and less grueling training. What % do you think started out as pre-med? Med students opinions are biased because in undergrad we see what happens to our friends who do not get into med school (~90% of our friends)- they mostly all go to pod school, chiropractic, optometry, physical therapy, or graduate school. I have one old friend specifically who started out pre-med, applied (in diff years) to all the schools above. He finally had to settle for chiropractic. The point is we do not always see the people who start out wanting to be a podiatrists, so things get skewed a little... that and if you look at the avg gpa and test scores for these other fields they are much lower than med school admission standards.

I am being attacked, but my opinion is nearly universal- even some of the level-headed pods students have posted in support of my arguments. Pod school training is not equivalent to medical school training- no matter how much some of the pods wish it was. If the training was equivalent (as it is for DOs) then you would be allowed to apply to MD/DO residencies and you would have the same practicing privileges that MD/DOs have . The reason you are not allowed to apply to the same residencies or the scope of practice that MD/DOs have is because pods are undertrained compared to MD/DOs. Perhaps focused training in a different area is a better term though.

There are reasons why the requirements for medical school are set so much higher than pod school. People we admit who have an avg GPA and MCAT of what pod schools do have a very hard time making it through. Woody and Yellow ROse have made excellent points. If you do not believe what I am saying, please ask your friends in the real world or ask people in the medical or general forums.

 

[YellowRose]

gustydoc,

every hospital is different, but i don't think its appropriate for 4th year students to order X-rays, labs, and especially CT scans without supervision. routine daily labs or dialy xrays for an intubated patients is one thing, but ordering labs/test for work up of an acute issue shouldn't go unsupervised, especially in a 4th year student. Even Uconn 4th year medical students aren't allowed to write orders w/out a co-signiture. but like i said, every hospital is different. Ordering a CT scan is not a benign process, there are factors to consider, what are you looking for? Con vs non contrast? High resolution? spiral? thin vs thick cuts? whats the renal function? how would you prophylax for constrast? etc, etc, etc.

ACLS certification does not equate to being able to run a code. running a code in real life is a lot different than running one on a dummy. Those of you that have run one before can attest to that. being able to manage the chaos with 20 people in the room, think quick on your feet, and barking out orders, knowing which med to use next based on the rythm strip, running through a differential in your head, etc. You may be the rare 4th year student that can, but i have yet to meet one. well i guess it could happen if you were a medic for 10years prior.

you're right though, i don't know much more about podiatry than what i read on here. i actually would like to learn more about your training. for instance, during the first two years, do you study histology of the whole body, or just the feet? during anatomy, do you dissect the heart, map the coronoary anatomy? follow every nerve and artery of the upper extremity, ribs, and perineum? during neuroanatomy, do you study all the tracts, where they decussate? learn about crohns disease, ulcerative colitis, read EKGs? how about pharmacology? do you learn all the antihypertensives? parkinsons? cardiac drugs? antidepressants?

or do you learn it all superficially, but focus more on the lower extremity? im just curious, because if your training is similar, rotations being similar as well, why not take the USMLE? i would be one to argue that you could take the USMLE, and in that case why not specialize in other fields? cardiology, GI, nephro, critical care? the options from then on are endless.

 

[jonwill]

OK, so I don't have the time or energy to read everything going on but I think most would agree that it is getting out of hand (or foot). I will simply say that in the real world of medicine, no one cares or has time for issues like this. We're all busy working. When I get called to the ED at 2AM for an open pilon fracture or GSW, nobody cares whether I went to podiatry school or medical school or whether I have MD or DPM behind my name. They simply know that I'll have the medical understanding and ability to fix it.

Maybe I missed it but nowhere have I seen anyone state that podiatry school is a joke or easier than an MD/DO program. When they say that podiatry school is not medical school, I don't think they are implying that it is any easier. And if they are, they are wrong. So what?

Finally, yea, this argument comes up about every 6 months or so. So let's keep it civil and the thread will stay open. If it continues to digress, it will meet the fate of other similar threads.

 

[billclinton]

By the way as a fourth year podiatric medical student I order labs, CTs, X-rays etc on a daily basis without anyone overseeing my work. As far running a code, why would you assume that is a responsibilty I would not want? I took the same classes and tests as the DOs at my school for two years and have been rotating in a hospitals all over the country with the medical residents. I am ACLS certified and I would feel totally confident running a code. The podiatric resident I saw run a code on a patient who crashed during surgery did an excellent job and made me proud of the fact that we are trained well enought to handle any situation. I guess perhaps the real problem is that we as podiatrists or students don't do a good enough job of educating all the DOs and MDs out there of just how good (aka equal) our training is. Then again I am too busy practicing medicine podiatric or otherwise to worry about other peoples false assumptions.

hahahah... anyone who has ever worked at a university hospital knows that students are not able to order labs, CTs, X-rays unsupervised. Perhaps, you are told by the MD to type it into the computer and you type it in unsupervised... but I have worked at dozens of university hospitals in the last 15+ yrs and this was never allowed. Now we know you are full of it.

I guess if the training is equal to an MD/DO my question is why are you not able to take USMLE 1,2,3? Why are you not allowed to apply to anything other than podiatric residencies? Why is the average admissions standards lower for podiatric schools? Why is your scope of practice limited by law?

I guess I shouldn't have even went to medical school. Heck, I could have just taken anatomy, biochem, and a few other of the basic science courses and my training would be equal to an MD. Why did I waste so much time in training? lol....

just a reminder... yes, i am only arguing over semantics. no,i am not arguing about whether pods > MDs or MDs > pods, etc....

 

[gustydoc]

gustydoc,

every hospital is different, but i don't think its appropriate for 4th year students to order X-rays, labs, and especially CT scans without supervision. routine daily labs or dialy xrays for an intubated patients is one thing, but ordering labs/test for work up of an acute issue shouldn't go unsupervised, especially in a 4th year student. Even Uconn 4th year medical students aren't allowed to write orders w/out a co-signiture. but like i said, every hospital is different. Ordering a CT scan is not a benign process, there are factors to consider, what are you looking for? Con vs non contrast? High resolution? spiral? thin vs thick cuts? whats the renal function? how would you prophylax for constrast? etc, etc, etc.

ACLS certification does not equate to being able to run a code. running a code in real life is a lot different than running one on a dummy. Those of you that have run one before can attest to that. being able to manage the chaos with 20 people in the room, think quick on your feet, and barking out orders, knowing which med to use next based on the rythm strip, running through a differential in your head, etc. You may be the rare 4th year student that can, but i have yet to meet one. well i guess it could happen if you were a medic for 10years prior.

you're right though, i don't know much more about podiatry than what i read on here. i actually would like to learn more about your training. for instance, during the first two years, do you study histology of the whole body, or just the feet? during anatomy, do you dissect the heart, map the coronoary anatomy? follow every nerve and artery of the upper extremity, ribs, and perineum? during neuroanatomy, do you study all the tracts, where they decussate? learn about crohns disease, ulcerative colitis, read EKGs? how about pharmacology? do you learn all the antihypertensives? parkinsons? cardiac drugs? antidepressants?
or do you learn it all superficially, but focus more on the lower extremity? im just curious, because if your training is similar, rotations being similar as well, why not take the USMLE? i would be one to argue that you could take the USMLE, and in that case why not specialize in other fields? cardiology, GI, nephro, critical care? the options from then on are endless.

I appreciate your interest in our training and I understand why most people aren't clear on what we know. The answer to all of your above questions is YES. My lab partner in anatomy was a DO and we disected the entire body together. Like I said we took all of our classes with the DO students and took all of the same exams (neuroanatomy, physiology, histology, biochem, pathology etc). It wasn't unitl halfway through the second year that we take an additional lower limb anatomy class that is even more in depth than general anatomy. Personally I would love the opportunity to take the COMLEX or USMLE, but there is more to it than that. Currently only MD or DO students are even allowed to register to take the tests. There are discussions ongoing in the APMA about a change in our board exams or a move to the USMLE but we will just have to wait and see what happens with that. I should mention that my desire to take the USMLE has nothing to do a possiblity to specialize in other fields. I chose podiatry because I love foot and ankle surgery. Anyway hope the info helps and I appreciate the inquiry into our niche in medicine.

 

[gustydoc]

hahahah... anyone who has ever worked at a university hospital knows that students are not able to order labs, CTs, X-rays unsupervised. Perhaps, you are told by the MD to type it into the computer and you type it in unsupervised... but I have worked at dozens of university hospitals in the last 15+ yrs and this was never allowed. Now we know you are full of it.

I guess if the training is equal to an MD/DO my question is why are you not able to take USMLE 1,2,3? Why are you not allowed to apply to anything other than podiatric residencies? Why is the average admissions standards lower for podiatric schools? Why is your scope of practice limited by law?

I guess I shouldn't have even went to medical school. Heck, I could have just taken anatomy, biochem, and a few other of the basic science courses and my training would be equal to an MD. Why did I waste so much time in training? lol....

just a reminder... yes, i am only arguing over semantics. no,i am not arguing about whether pods > MDs or MDs > pods, etc....

Bill I don't even know how to respond to you because your posts are so unprofessional and derogatory they really don't deserve a response. I did order labs and films today without anyone holding my hand. Tomorrow when my attending comes in he will electronically sign them and that will be the end of it. I am not so sure what about that is so hard for you to understand and as I mentioned before as soon as the AMA decides accept DPM students applications to sign up for the USMLE my check will be in the mail the same day.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Bill I don't even know how to respond to you because your posts are so unprofessional and derogatory they really don't deserve a response. I did order labs and films today without anyone holding my hand. Tomorrow when my attending comes in he will electronically sign them and that will be the end of it. I am not so sure what about that is so hard for you to understand and as I mentioned before as soon as the AMA decides accept DPM students applications to sign up for the USMLE my check will be in the mail the same day.

Even scarier, I gave dare I say an injection of 2% lidocaine unsupervised today. Thankful I missed the artery, but talk about scary.

Here's something that will really blow your mind, Jewish Medical Center is going to be the new home of the Kentucky residency program. JMC has a world famous hand institute (first hand transplant, hand ortho fellowship) in which the program is moving. It will now be the Hand and Foot Insitute at Jewish Medical Center. They for some reason think that a bunch of lowly pods are good enough to be included in the name of a world famous hand institute. I guess they don't read SDN.

 

[densmore22]

gustydoc,

every hospital is different, but i don't think its appropriate for 4th year students to order X-rays, labs, and especially CT scans without supervision. routine daily labs or dialy xrays for an intubated patients is one thing, but ordering labs/test for work up of an acute issue shouldn't go unsupervised, especially in a 4th year student. Even Uconn 4th year medical students aren't allowed to write orders w/out a co-signiture. but like i said, every hospital is different. Ordering a CT scan is not a benign process, there are factors to consider, what are you looking for? Con vs non contrast? High resolution? spiral? thin vs thick cuts? whats the renal function? how would you prophylax for constrast? etc, etc, etc.

ACLS certification does not equate to being able to run a code. running a code in real life is a lot different than running one on a dummy. Those of you that have run one before can attest to that. being able to manage the chaos with 20 people in the room, think quick on your feet, and barking out orders, knowing which med to use next based on the rythm strip, running through a differential in your head, etc. You may be the rare 4th year student that can, but i have yet to meet one. well i guess it could happen if you were a medic for 10years prior.

you're right though, i don't know much more about podiatry than what i read on here. i actually would like to learn more about your training. for instance, during the first two years, do you study histology of the whole body, or just the feet? during anatomy, do you dissect the heart, map the coronoary anatomy? follow every nerve and artery of the upper extremity, ribs, and perineum? during neuroanatomy, do you study all the tracts, where they decussate? learn about crohns disease, ulcerative colitis, read EKGs? how about pharmacology? do you learn all the antihypertensives? parkinsons? cardiac drugs? antidepressants?

or do you learn it all superficially, but focus more on the lower extremity? im just curious, because if your training is similar, rotations being similar as well, why not take the USMLE? i would be one to argue that you could take the USMLE, and in that case why not specialize in other fields? cardiology, GI, nephro, critical care? the options from then on are endless.

Yep, we do all that. I tried to get our Cardio/Resp syllabus on here, but my computer isn't letting me do it.

Taking the USMLE is a big issue within Podiatry right now under something called Vision 2015 which is basically our push to acheive parity. There's several committee's that have been formed by various members of the APMA to address these issues specifically.

I'm currently trying to get a unified, detailed and informative Powerpoint put together with actual case photos and what not to be able to present to undergrads.

That's one of our profession's biggest downfalls is that nobody knows about it unless they've gone to a podiatrist or have explored other options on their own. Every undergrad knows about being a "premed" and what that entails, but not everyone knows about the Podiatric medical profession and that we have a lot to offer.

I'm glad that you want to expand your knowledge of our profession because besides us educating people about what we do, it's going to take an effort on Allo and osteopathic students and physicians parts to want to learn about what we do before serious change will ensue.

I personally am so tired of reading about this, it pisses me off that there are people out there like BillClinton, but reality is, we're going to have to put up with people like him- or herself for the rest of our career's.

I seriously doubt that BillClinton is anything above a medical student because, as displayed by practicing physicians messaging on this board and with my own very extensive personal experiences, it's very rare to have a practicing physician come out right and bash another medical profession and quite frankly it's very unprofessional and if most hospitals or places of business found out about comments made, even "anonimously" like this, it would almost be grounds for dismissal, if not action by the administration- I have personal contacts that are high up in medical clinics and hospitals who have stated this fact directly to me, it's been an issue in past instances.

The point is, people are going to have their opinions and unless they want to change, they won't. They're just going to come on here and troll. If we're supposed to be the inferior ones intellectually, then why are you (BillClinton) the one acting so *****ically and juvenile? Just a thought for you there buddy.

 

[IlizaRob]

Even scarier, I gave dare I say an injection of 2% lidocaine unsupervised today. Thankful I missed the artery, but talk about scary.

Here's something that will really blow your mind, Jewish Medical Center is going to be the new home of the Kentucky residency program. JMC has a world famous hand institute (first hand transplant, hand ortho fellowship) in which the program is moving. It will now be the Hand and Foot Insitute at Jewish Medical Center. They for some reason think that a bunch of lowly pods are good enough to be included in the name of a world famous hand institute. I guess they don't read SDN.

They should have taken a poll in the pre-med forums on SDN before making that decision. Rookies!

 

[IlizaRob]

I was not making generalized statements

Bill, you're killing me. All your statements are generalized.

 

[YellowRose]

wow, as an attending having vast experience working w. med students, interns, and residents, i'm still boggled that as students you can order labs, radiology, etc on your own. so if a nurse calls you about a patient at 3am saying he's having AMS, and this is new for him, you can go ahead and CT his head without clearing it? wow, i wouldn't even let my medicine interns do that w/out clearing it with me unless its towards the end of the intern year.

in the future, anything is possible, and if you guys as a profession push it, it can happen. So lets say that the AMA allows you to sit for the USMLE step 1-3, inevitably DPM's will use this as a platform for ventering into AMA residencies, and demand equality, and rightfully so if passing all 3 steps. foreign med grads do it all the time, they study medicine in their home county (which is vastly different from the US), pass steps 1-3 and start residency, so why can't DPMs? will that ultimately mean the end of podiatry as a profession? if DPM's go into pathology, rheum, GI, cardiology, etc? there will be fewer true podiatrist if that were to happen. but for that to truly happen, your rotations would have to include pediatrics, family med, ob/gyn, psychiatry, general surgery, etc. what do you guys think?

 

[Northerner]

wow, as an attending having vast experience working w. med students, interns, and residents, i'm still boggled that as students you can order labs, radiology, etc on your own. so if a nurse calls you about a patient at 3am saying he's having AMS, and this is new for him, you can go ahead and CT his head without clearing it? wow, i wouldn't even let my medicine interns do that w/out clearing it with me unless its towards the end of the intern year.

in the future, anything is possible, and if you guys as a profession push it, it can happen. So lets say that the AMA allows you to sit for the USMLE step 1-3, inevitably DPM's will use this as a platform for ventering into AMA residencies, and demand equality, and rightfully so if passing all 3 steps. foreign med grads do it all the time, they study medicine in their home county (which is vastly different from the US), pass steps 1-3 and start residency, so why can't DPMs? will that ultimately mean the end of podiatry as a profession? if DPM's go into pathology, rheum, GI, cardiology, etc? there will be fewer true podiatrist if that were to happen. but for that to truly happen, your rotations would have to include pediatrics, family med, ob/gyn, psychiatry, general surgery, etc. what do you guys think?

That's exactly what the MD camp is worried about. We saw it happen with the DO, we see it happening with NP's, we're worried it'll happen with DPM (especially with this podiatry --> podiatric medicine, podiatry student -->medical student, podiatry school --> "medical school" push we're seeing of late)....

 

[jonwill]

wow, as an attending having vast experience working w. med students, interns, and residents, i'm still boggled that as students you can order labs, radiology, etc on your own. so if a nurse calls you about a patient at 3am saying he's having AMS, and this is new for him, you can go ahead and CT his head without clearing it? wow, i wouldn't even let my medicine interns do that w/out clearing it with me unless its towards the end of the intern year.

in the future, anything is possible, and if you guys as a profession push it, it can happen. So lets say that the AMA allows you to sit for the USMLE step 1-3, inevitably DPM's will use this as a platform for ventering into AMA residencies, and demand equality, and rightfully so if passing all 3 steps. foreign med grads do it all the time, they study medicine in their home county (which is vastly different from the US), pass steps 1-3 and start residency, so why can't DPMs? will that ultimately mean the end of podiatry as a profession? if DPM's go into pathology, rheum, GI, cardiology, etc? there will be fewer true podiatrist if that were to happen. but for that to truly happen, your rotations would have to include pediatrics, family med, ob/gyn, psychiatry, general surgery, etc. what do you guys think?

There is a lot of truth in your statement. If we allow the insecurities in our profession to drive us to be "more like the MD's", we will lose the very training that we claim we have. We claim to be the foot and ankle experts. The reason podiatry school IS different than MD/DO programs is that, though most of our didactic courses are the same, we begin specializing in the lower extremity very early. During our clinical years, while we do other rotations, the majority of our time is spent on the foot and ankle. We know lower extremity pathology better than any other doctor. It's what we "bring to the table". So where do we draw the line?

I propose that DPM students take part one of the USMLE. I personally feel that I would have done just fine on it as my first few years of schooling was done at a medical school (DMU) along side DO students. However, I am against taking part two or three for the very reason that I stated above. It would require compromising our curriculum and we would graduate having a good understanding of general medicine but we wouldn't know lower limb any better than an MD which basically defeats the entire purpose of podiatry school. If that's the way the profession is moving, then why not just make "podiatric surgery" an MD residency and be done with it!!!

 

[IlizaRob]

wow, as an attending having vast experience working w. med students, interns, and residents, i'm still boggled that as students you can order labs, radiology, etc on your own. so if a nurse calls you about a patient at 3am saying he's having AMS, and this is new for him, you can go ahead and CT his head without clearing it? wow, i wouldn't even let my medicine interns do that w/out clearing it with me unless its towards the end of the intern year.

in the future, anything is possible, and if you guys as a profession push it, it can happen. So lets say that the AMA allows you to sit for the USMLE step 1-3, inevitably DPM's will use this as a platform for ventering into AMA residencies, and demand equality, and rightfully so if passing all 3 steps. foreign med grads do it all the time, they study medicine in their home county (which is vastly different from the US), pass steps 1-3 and start residency, so why can't DPMs? will that ultimately mean the end of podiatry as a profession? if DPM's go into pathology, rheum, GI, cardiology, etc? there will be fewer true podiatrist if that were to happen. but for that to truly happen, your rotations would have to include pediatrics, family med, ob/gyn, psychiatry, general surgery, etc. what do you guys think?

You know, I really hope that no DPM will push to be able enter non-podiatric residencies. That defeats the purpose of having a seperate school and specializing early. I think that education standards should increase and I wouldnt mind mandating the USMLE, but this would be only to gain parity and respect in the medical community and be able to practice full scope within our training in every state. DPMs dont need to have privileges to do surgery in the knee. They just want equal pay for same services and equal respect just as it is another specialty within medicine. Every specialty practices within their scope of training. Podiatry would be no different.

 

[Feli]

... I am not sure if Bill is an attending or not, but I believe he (or she) goes to or works at my school. I have gone to computers and visited SDN where it showed him as still logged in.

...I have worked at dozens of university hospitals in the last 15+ yrs ....

I'm calling BS on this. There's no way an attending physician of any decent quality has the time to read an online forum or cares to incessantly police allied health students on who can and cannot use the term "medical school." If you look at his posts, he's all over from pod forum to pre-med to optometry to every corner of SDN starting dumb arguments like this. Most docs and podiatrists (make sure not to confuse them with doctors ) I know sure don't have that kind of time.

My guess is that he's a first or 2nd year student... if that. I doubt I'll have the time to log on here more than once or twice a week as a resident or practicing pod. There's no way that an attending logs on a half dozen times per day lol.

 

[Northerner]

You know, I really hope that no DPM will push to be able enter non-podiatric residencies. That defeats the purpose of having a seperate school and specializing early. I think that education standards should increase and I wouldnt mind mandating the USMLE, but this would be only to gain parity and respect in the medical community and be able to practice full scope within our training in every state. DPMs dont need to have privileges to do surgery in the knee. They just want equal pay for same services and equal respect just as it is another specialty within medicine. Every specialty practices within their scope of training. Podiatry would be no different.

Why mandate the USMLE? Just to prove you can pass it? Ridiculous, our licensing exams aren't conducted so that peripheral health professions can say "me too"....

You know what I really don't understand? Why someone in pod school would complain about "scope of practice" and parity and respect and equal pay, when they could have had all that if they'd just gone to medical school. They're different degrees & training. And I'm not convinced if podiatry were an ortho subspecialty, it'd be as popular as podiatry is today, since it's so much harder to even get into med school in the first place, and then even harder to get an ortho residency....although if it were just "podiatry" as a residency coming out of med school (instead of an ortho fellowship), maybe then the programs'd fill with the folks who weren't quite ortho material, but liked the field.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Why mandate the USMLE? Just to prove you can pass it? Ridiculous, our licensing exams aren't conducted so that peripheral health professions can say "me too"....

You know what I really don't understand? Why someone in pod school would complain about "scope of practice" and parity and respect and equal pay, when they could have had all that if they'd just gone to medical school. They're different degrees & training. And I'm not convinced if podiatry were a ortho subspecialty, it'd be as popular as podiatry is today, since it's so much harder to even get into med school in the first place, and then even harder to get an ortho residency....although if it were just "podiatry" as a residency coming out of med school (instead of an ortho fellowship), maybe then the programs'd fill with the folks who weren't quite ortho material, but liked the LE field.

I agree with your first statement. I do not think that pods should sit for the USMLE or COMLEX, instead I would like to see them sit on a test created with questions from the USMLE or COMLEX that is specific to podiatry. It would be similar to how the COMLEX has added OMM to the test, the DPM versions would have podiaty specific questions. It would validate the DPM board exams w/o compromising the USMLE or COMLEX.

I disagree with you other comments. One, the "scope" issue is important on many levels. One, as DM is becoming more of an issue some states don't let pods amputate. I'm not taking a BKA or AKA, I'm talking about any amputation. I don't know if you have seen any amp procedures but they are probably the easiest cases in the world, especially the toe amps. Two, if you are so afraid of pods gaining too much power a national scope would end the conversation. Three, with the rising cost of health care for very simple procedures such as harvesting a skin or bone graft outside of the LE, you are paying for two surgeons. I don't think that you understand the scope issue enough to make blank statements, and as we have discussed previously we all have scopes. If a OB-GYN operated on my prostate, it is his/her butt on the line. Why? He/She has not training AKA out of scope.

Two, equal pay for equal work is bull crap. A bunion is a bunion. I've seen ortho do the same procedure as podiatry. This issue goes plays into some legal issues within various states. The reason I say that is some courts state that the standard of care is different in podiatry and foot and ankle orthopedics. If this is true, I would like your opinion as to why? Is it b/c ortho residents only get about 6 weeks to 6 months of foot and ankle training? Or that even with a fellowship an foot and ankle orthopod will only have up to 1 1/2 years of foot and ankle training?

As for if podiatry was a ortho specialty it is they are called foot and ankle fellows and they are very high in demand. I don't know why they would be in demand with the pay.

 

[Feli]

...you're right though, i don't know much more about podiatry than what i read on here. i actually would like to learn more about your training. for instance, during the first two years, do you study histology of the whole body, or just the feet? during anatomy, do you dissect the heart, map the coronoary anatomy? follow every nerve and artery of the upper extremity, ribs, and perineum? during neuroanatomy, do you study all the tracts, where they decussate? learn about crohns disease, ulcerative colitis, read EKGs? how about pharmacology? do you learn all the antihypertensives? parkinsons? cardiac drugs? antidepressants?

or do you learn it all superficially, but focus more on the lower extremity?...

Yes, we study all of that stuff. It's not like we study just foot anat, path, Rx, etc. If we did, our program wouldn't be nearly as long as it is. It's pretty apparent that you don't have a pod residency at the hospital you work at.

The education is fairly similar. Essentially what all pod programs lack are the OB and psych classes and rotations since we'd never use them, and our neuro and int med probably don't go so far in depth as MD programs in exchange for more lower extremity path, biomechanics, and radiology courses for DPM students. Still, we read and are tested on Robbins path, Netter anat, Bates diagnosis, Chung and Lam Anesthesiology, Murray microbiology, etc etc etc. We use First Aid, BRS series, Micro Made Simple, etc for board exam study. Lot of pod students study carry around Maxwell's, Tarascon, and Harrison's pocket in clinic. I've already bought StepUp, Surgical Recall, Washington Manual, etc to read during my gen surg, ER, and int med rotations which are upcoming in 3rd year.

The intern year of any DPM residency today includes Int Med, ER, Anesth, Path, Radio, etc etc etc. Most of our residencies are heaviest on external rotations like ortho, vascular, derm, rheumatology, infectious dz, and other specialties which pods will pick up some pearls from and be working with to manage patients during their practicing career.

You can think whatever you like about pod and nitpick over nomenclature if you like, but you it's good that you're trying to learn at the same time. I agree that pods have some differences in their education, but they are pretty subtle. You need to acknowledge that every pod coming out today has at minimum the general overall medical knowledge of a PA, and most of the hard working students have a good deal more. Obviously, most good pod students are also reading books on F&A surgery, diabetic infections, limb salvage, pediatric biomechanical abnormalities, etc which your average "medical student" would never have even heard of. The only other specialists who can probably hold a candle to the foot/ankle knowledge of a good pod finishing residency today would probably be an endocrinologist on the diabetes, a vascular surgeon on the limb salvage, a F&A ortho on the lower extermity anat and surgery, or another good podiatrist on the whole package (again, make sure to distinguish them from physicians or doctors, though).

The bottom line is that when you are trying to get the best care for the patient, you want the best people for the job. IMO, there are a lot bigger issues than pissing matches between students...

 

[YellowRose]

There is a lot of truth in your statement. If we allow the insecurities in our profession to drive us to be "more like the MD's", we will lose the very training that we claim we have. We claim to be the foot and ankle experts. The reason podiatry school IS different than MD/DO programs is that, though most of our didactic courses are the same, we begin specializing in the lower extremity very early. During our clinical years, while we do other rotations, the majority of our time is spent on the foot and ankle. We know lower extremity pathology better than any other doctor. It's what we "bring to the table". So where do we draw the line?

I propose that DPM students take part one of the USMLE. I personally feel that I would have done just fine on it as my first few years of schooling was done at a medical school (DMU) along side DO students. However, I am against taking part two or three for the very reason that I stated above. It would require compromising our curriculum and we would graduate having a good understanding of general medicine but we wouldn't know lower limb any better than an MD which basically defeats the entire purpose of podiatry school. If that's the way the profession is moving, then why not just make "podiatric surgery" an MD residency and be done with it!!!

theres no disputing that podiatrist know lower extremity pathology and mechanics better than anyone. but i think Clinton has issues with using the term medical student when he sees comments like the ones above, "During our clinical years, while we do other rotations, that the majority of clinical rotations are spent focused on the foot and ankle." MD/DO students, during clinical rotations do psych, ob/gyn, peds, IM, surgery, and don't stress one aspect of the human body. Like i said in my previous post, we are trained as generalist first, then during residency focus on one field.

i actually think it would serve your profession and your patients better if you adopted a traditional medical curriculum, with extra emphasis on the LE, do traditional core clinical rotations like MD/DO students do, then go on to further emphasize on the LE during residency. in the end, i don't think it would hinder your LE knowledge. ENT, and Ophthalmo specialist are the tops in their field w/out emphasizing it in the preclinical years. 3-4 yrs on LE surgery is plenty of time to learn the LE. DO's do it all the time. we learn OMT along with the traditional medicine in the first 2 yrs, do our core clinical rotations, then specialize. If equality and parity are what you strive for, then change the curriculum to achieve this. DO's have done it, and are accepted in every specialty there is. I wholeheartedly support the DPMs strive for equality, but would have a hard time giving it to you if your curriculum stresses the LE mostly, and lack the other rotations that make someone a well rounded physician.

 

[WoodyJI]

That's exactly what the MD camp is worried about. We saw it happen with the DO, we see it happening with NP's, we're worried it'll happen with DPM (especially with this podiatry --> podiatric medicine, podiatry student -->medical student, podiatry school --> "medical school" push we're seeing of late)....

I agree with these points. It seems to me that historically, the DOs had a good reason to push. Allopathic medicine was close-minded at that time, but that's not the way it is anymore (I don't think, anyways). In any case, DOs currently gear their program towards medical residencies, but I don't understand what a podiatry student would do with his/her board scores after they took the test? Isn't there a lot more to placing into a residency specialty than board scores?

It is clear that most podiatry students wouldn't want to take boards to try and gain access to medical residencies. I guess if you take the MCAT to get into pod school, then taking USMLE Step I makes sense. If it were up to me though, I would set Vision 2015's sights on creating exams unique to podiatry--not switching over to the test med students take. I think there should be a PAT the same way there's a DAT, OAT, PCAT, etc. No more of this accepting MCAT, DAT, PCAT, and even GRE scores for admissions into podiatry. Is podiatry a younger profession than optometry and the rest? That might explain why they don't yet have their own separate colleges/tests and the 8 colleges are still in some ways 'living with their parents,' so to speak. I wish there were a less offensive way to say this...maybe there is, but this thread is getting a little old by now...

 

[IlizaRob]

Why someone in pod school would complain about "scope of practice" and parity and respect and equal pay, when they could have had all that if they'd just gone to medical school.

Think about it Northerner. I know your bright mind can come up with the answer. You should be practicing developing differentials.

Although those are issues that we currently face, there are more factors involved when making the ultimate decision to choose podiatry. There are many advantages to podiatry. You are able to practice many aspects of medicine from primary care to reconstructive surgery. There are few emergencies, huge plus. Pay is good. By specializing early you become more knowledgable in your area of expertise than any other doc. Most patients can be fixed, many quickly. Very procedural so you dont get bored. The list goes on. For me personally, I enjoy the anatomy and complexities of the foot and ankle. I also found that I would not be happy in many of the specialties that I shadowed before school. I might be happy in ortho but I didnt want to invest so much time only to be matched in family medicine.

So when you think of it that way, no, I could not have had all that if I went to MD school.

 

[cool_vkb]

You know what I really don't understand? Why someone in pod school would complain about "scope of practice" and parity and respect and equal pay, when they could have had all that if they'd just gone to medical school. They're different degrees & training. And I'm not convinced if podiatry were an ortho subspecialty, it'd be as popular as podiatry is today, since it's so much harder to even get into med school in the first place, and then even harder to get an ortho residency....although if it were just "podiatry" as a residency coming out of med school (instead of an ortho fellowship), maybe then the programs'd fill with the folks who weren't quite ortho material, but liked the field.

I have seen many *****s in med school who bark that oh med school is hard and thats why people go to podiatry. Incase you didnt went to the IMG forum of this SDN. People can pay $60K-80K and buy a medical seat in Carribean/Pakistan/India/Phillipines and get bare minimum scores in USMLE and join a community program in IM/FM or even Gen surgery and sit with you in Physicians lounge with same respect and dignity you will have after you have passed your med school (which no doubt is the hardest to get in ).

so if i were to becme a MD, then the school hardness was never an issue and i could just fly down south to the new school at US/Mexico border and commuted daily from texas to mexico and got my MD and be a physician in IM or Gen surgery.

And by the way, the residency rate for IMGs who did US clinical clerkships s around 80% (compared to the 50% rate for all IMGs). So dont worry i wud have easily got in residency.

So man! dont you speak abt hardness and other stuff. Many are in Pod school because they wanted to be pods. Its not because aah they failed to get in Medicine and thats why entered Pod school . (yeah there cud be people like that i dont deny that) but the general notion acquired by many idiot/stupid/illiterate/ loser premeds and some really prejudiced Med students that he/she is a Pod student only & only bcoz he/she coudnt get in Med School is really bull**** and stupid.

I would never ask for the scope of knee surgery or hip. There are so many reasons why a Pod would show his curriculum or level of training and argue that he is as capable as an MD. Its not because we want to encroach the scope of MDs or Dentists but to clear things for people who think we are some witch doctors or fake doctors.

 

[Feli]

...MD/DO students, during clinical rotations do psych, ob/gyn, peds, IM, surgery, and don't stress one aspect of the human body. Like i said in my previous post, we are trained as generalist first, then during residency focus on one field.

i actually think it would serve your profession and your patients better if you adopted a traditional medical curriculum, with extra emphasis on the LE, do traditional core clinical rotations like MD/DO students do, then go on to further emphasize on the LE during residency. in the end, i don't think it would hinder your LE knowledge...

You might be right, but I don't see a need to fix what's not broken. It's not like most orthos wouldn't send co-admit with the patient's generalist or have the house intern do the pre-op clearance before surgery. A vascular wouldn't manage diabetes from month to month; he'd refer to int med, endocrinology, etc.

If podiatry were a MD/DO residency, it'd probably be 5+ years to get to the level of knowledge most of our grads from good PMS-36 (3yr) residencies have. The biomechanics, radiology, pod path, pod surg, periph vasc diseases, etc courses and labs as well as multiple podiatry rotationis as a student do accelerate the learning process. While it can be argued that it can tend to cause tunnel vision, it also makes a more efficient lower extremity specialist.

Can most beginning 3rd year MD/DO students tell you how to do an ankle block, find and classify heel and ankle fractures on radiographs, grade diabetic ulcers and tell you what the most common causative pathogens are, or talk you through a bunion surgery procedure and recovery timeline including physical therapy? I can, and I'll still probably hold my own on int med when I have to work up anemia or diagnose appendicitis side by side with "medical students" on my this fall on ER or int med rotations. Specializing early does have its advantages...

 

[YellowRose]

Can most beginning 3rd year MD/DO students tell you how to do an ankle block, find and classify heel and ankle fractures on radiographs, grade diabetic ulcers and tell you what the most common causative pathogens are, or talk you through a bunion surgery procedure and recovery timeline including physical therapy? I can, and I'll still probably hold my own on int med when I have to work up anemia or diagnose appendicitis side by side with "medical students" on my this fall on ER or int med rotations. Specializing early does have its advantages...

probably not, probably not, i hope so (aren't all ulcers graded the same?), yes, no, probably not. yes, there are advantages to specializing early, but with the exception of ulcers and common pathogens, i can't remember the last time i've had to deal with the other issues (probably b/c i always send it to podiatry)

and specializing early does have its disadvantages as well, that are too extensive to list here. one major one is, there is perception that by specializing early (and i stress perception), that the other aspects of medicine are not emphasized enough in training. which leads me to the example below:

when i was a resident in the ICU, there was a statement my ICU attending made, that i thought was unfair. at one of my training hospitals, podiatry residents have a consult service and they do do below ankle amputations. (new britain general). anyways, the week prior, a poorly controlled DM had her foot amputated due to a septic joint/ulcers. the wound was closed, but the area of infection had not been fully debrided. needless to say, she became septic, intubated, on multiple pressors, etc, etc. (i can't remember if she survived b/c i had since left the service), but my ICU attending blamed it on the podiatrist, and stated that he'd never let a podiatrist operate on him. It was probably one out of 1000 surgeries that goes wrong, but got blamed b/c he was a podiatrist. i didn't say anything, but thought that was COMPLETELY unfair comment. Let me tell you, MD/DO surgeons have made LOTS more mistakes and killed many more people, yet don't get blamed as much. i think in part b/c it is "perceived" that they are not adequately trained in surgery, which i don't believe b/c there have been far fewer podiatric surgery mistakes than regular surgery mistakes.

 

[IlizaRob]

probably not, probably not, i hope so (aren't all ulcers graded the same?), yes, no, probably not. yes, there are advantages to specializing early, but with the exception of ulcers and common pathogens, i can't remember the last time i've had to deal with the other issues (probably b/c i always send it to podiatry)

and specializing early does have its disadvantages as well, that are too extensive to list here. one major one is, there is perception that by specializing early (and i stress perception), that the other aspects of medicine are not emphasized enough in training. which leads me to the example below:

when i was a resident in the ICU, there was a statement my ICU attending made, that i thought was unfair. at one of my training hospitals, podiatry residents have a consult service and they do do below ankle amputations. (new britain general). anyways, the week prior, a poorly controlled DM had her foot amputated due to a septic joint/ulcers. the wound was closed, but the area of infection had not been fully debrided. needless to say, she became septic, intubated, on multiple pressors, etc, etc. (i can't remember if she survived b/c i had since left the service), but my ICU attending blamed it on the podiatrist, and stated that he'd never let a podiatrist operate on him. It was probably one out of 1000 surgeries that goes wrong, but got blamed b/c he was a podiatrist. i didn't say anything, but thought that was COMPLETELY unfair comment. Let me tell you, MD/DO surgeons have made LOTS more mistakes and killed many more people, yet don't get blamed as much. i think in part b/c it is "perceived" that they are not adequately trained in surgery, which i don't believe b/c there have been far fewer podiatric surgery mistakes than regular surgery mistakes.

In my limited experience I have already seen many poorly done surgeries of the foot and ankle by general surgeons (my guess is they just dont do them that much) but I have also seen many poorly performed surgeries by podiatric and orthopedic surgeons. So this leads me to believe that it is more of an individual issue rather than an issue of specialty as a whole.

In reference to your story, it was unfair considering that osteo can be present in bone that appears to be normal. There is a fine line between taking too much, and not taking enough.

 

[krabmas]

gustydoc,



you're right though, i don't know much more about podiatry than what i read on here. i actually would like to learn more about your training. for instance, during the first two years, do you study histology of the whole body, or just the feet? during anatomy, do you dissect the heart, map the coronoary anatomy? follow every nerve and artery of the upper extremity, ribs, and perineum? during neuroanatomy, do you study all the tracts, where they decussate? learn about crohns disease, ulcerative colitis, read EKGs? how about pharmacology? do you learn all the antihypertensives? parkinsons? cardiac drugs? antidepressants?

or do you learn it all superficially, but focus more on the lower extremity? im just curious, because if your training is similar, rotations being similar as well, why not take the USMLE? i would be one to argue that you could take the USMLE, and in that case why not specialize in other fields? cardiology, GI, nephro, critical care? the options from then on are endless.

In podiatry school and on our medicine rotations we learn medicine of the whole body. When we learn basic sciences we learn it for the whole body.

Biochem is no different for the foot. Most of biochem is metabolism. Last I checked the foot did not metabolize proteins and sugars different from the abdomen or arms. The blood that flows thru the foot is the same that goew thru the heart, kidneys, lungs...

Also, last that I checked the bones in the foot where histologically the same as those in the rest of the body - osteoclasts, osteoblasts, haversian systems, cutting cones... This goes for the muscles, veins, arteries, nerves, skin, joints, ligaments and tendons. Oh wait, the skin is different - plantarly it is thick and has an extra layer. And wait again - the veins of the foot are different too. The valves point towards the outside (superficial) of the foot where as elsewhere in the body the valves point inwards (deep).

In addition, we prescribe systemic antibiotics and other systemic meds. I sure hope that I know how those drugs will affect the liver or kidneys and when to renally dose the patient.

There are circumstances that come up everyday where I need to take care of the patient as a whole and not just the foot.

Just like any other specialty I have to know when to punt ( I mean refer). In order to know the correct specialty to refer to I have to know or recognize what is wrong with the patient.

 

[Northerner]

I have seen many *****s in med school who bark that oh med school is hard and thats why people go to podiatry. Incase you didnt went to the IMG forum of this SDN. People can pay $60K-80K and buy a medical seat in Carribean/Pakistan/India/Phillipines and get bare minimum scores in USMLE and join a community program in IM/FM or even Gen surgery and sit with you in Physicians lounge with same respect and dignity you will have after you have passed your med school (which no doubt is the hardest to get in ).

so if i were to becme a MD, then the school hardness was never an issue and i could just fly down south to the new school at US/Mexico border and commuted daily from texas to mexico and got my MD and be a physician in IM or Gen surgery.

And by the way, the residency rate for IMGs who did US clinical clerkships s around 80% (compared to the 50% rate for all IMGs). So dont worry i wud have easily got in residency.

So man! dont you speak abt hardness and other stuff. Many are in Pod school because they wanted to be pods. Its not because aah they failed to get in Medicine and thats why entered Pod school . (yeah there cud be people like that i dont deny that) but the general notion acquired by many idiot/stupid/illiterate/ loser premeds and some really prejudiced Med students that he/she is a Pod student only & only bcoz he/she coudnt get in Med School is really bull**** and stupid.

I would never ask for the scope of knee surgery or hip. There are so many reasons why a Pod would show his curriculum or level of training and argue that he is as capable as an MD. Its not because we want to encroach the scope of MDs or Dentists but to clear things for people who think we are some witch doctors or fake doctors.

It looks like you took my post (which was pretty much just stirring the pot because I'm bored and have a feeling this is the underlying sentiment) and extrapolated a whole lot of extra ideas to it. Just to clarify for those who think I actually said or implied some of the things vkb is claiming:

-Never said "oh med school is hard and that is why people go into podiatry". Not sure where you grabbed that one from, but don't assign it to my credit.

-FMG's are a whole other story, but if you think they're viewed on the same scale as U.S. grads, you're very much mistaken. So while you make some inferences about the "dignity" difference based on degree, you're wrong on two counts: 1) all healthcare providers deserve respect and dignity, and MD, DO, DPM are all "doctors", 2) if you are really fixated on the respect and dignity thing (which NO ONE is, outside of these forums designed for this sort of discussion), your hypothetical tenure in a Caribbean medical school wouldn't make you feel less inadequate if you've already got an inferiority complex.

-I never mentioned your ability to get an MD, not quite sure why you volunteered this, but it reeks of (again, redundant though it may be) insecurity. Congratulations - you could secure a foreign MD, and according to you, you "cud have easily got in residency". If your goals are to practice with the rights, responsibilities, and privileges as an MD, you should have probably done that.

-No one thinks you're fake doctors, we think you're foot doctors. So yes, I do agree you should have a universal scope of practice (what that includes would be a different discussion) in order to keep consistency. And you say NOW that you don't want to work on the knee, but what happens several years down the road? .....can we get the profession's promise in writing? Doubt it. Sounds like a pretty slippery slope to me.

But no, I don't think you're the same as an MD at all, most people don't, and changes that steer your training closer to ours would just make your degree less valuable. If you do what the DO's successfully did by designing your curriculum to be identical to the MD curriculum in order to gain equal standing, you'd better be prepared to lose the very thing that makes your profession unique - early exclusive specialization. Most pods are happy with this level of separation. You're foot doctors. When it comes to the foot, podiatrists are probably the best, but it comes at the expense of having received different training from an MD.

 

[NatCh]

[microwaving some popcorn in anticipation of another day of high drama]

 

[YellowRose]

different[/I] training from an MD.

good point.

 

[cool_vkb]

If you do what the DO's successfully did by designing your curriculum to be identical to the MD curriculum in order to gain equal standing, you'd better be prepared to lose the very thing that makes your profession unique - early exclusive specialization. Most pods are happy with this level of separation. You're foot doctors. When it comes to the foot, podiatrists are probably the best, but it comes at the expense of having received different training from an MD.

And i agree with you 100%, you guys are MDs and we are Podiatrists (F & A doctors) . So what exactly where we aruguing abt then?