Pharmacy Job Market

[Louie2012]

What did you expect?

That is $114k/year which is market rate for a new grad in the Midwest.

It’s 105,600 a year.

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[projektreverb]

I thought full time was 2040 hours? I’m getting about 112k

 

[Louie2012]

I thought full time was 2040 hours? I’m getting about 112k

I guess it depends on how you calculate it.

I’m doing 40 hours a week, 4 weeks a month and 12 months a year.
You might be right.

 

[projektreverb]

I guess it depends on how you calculate it.

I’m doing 40 hours a week, 4 weeks a month and 12 months a year.
You might be right.

52 weeks by 40 hours is 2080 hours, which is where that 114k came from I think?

 

[Louie2012]

52 weeks by 40 hours is 2080 hours, which is where that 114k came from I think?

Yes. But that means no vacation. That’s why I just did 48 weeks a year.

 

[projektreverb]

Yes. But that means no vacation. That’s why I just did 48 weeks a year.

Isn’t vacation time usually paid tho? I’m a resident and I still get 10 paid vacation days, or whatever you wanna call vacation as a resident lol

 

[BC_89]

Yes. But that means no vacation. That’s why I just did 48 weeks a year.

Your not getting paid vacation offered at your job?

 

[Louie2012]

Your not getting paid vacation offered at your job?

Who knows. It’s not an exciting offer. Firstly, I get healthcare benefits if I work at least 30hr/wk.
They pay $5 extra for overtime (this just made me feel defeated)
Since I’m a floater I’m not even guaranteed the hours to qualify for healthcare benefits.

 

[CNJ_Anon]

Compensation $30-40/hr for this Jersey City, NJ independent pharmacist-in-charge position posted on craigslist today. It's about 5 miles from Manhattan.

 

[Secret_Informant]

Who knows. It’s not an exciting offer. Firstly, I get healthcare benefits if I work at least 30hr/wk.
They pay $5 extra for overtime (this just made me feel defeated)
Since I’m a floater I’m not even guaranteed the hours to qualify for healthcare benefits.

Can you do something else on the side for extra income or is your employer the "fully-committed-to-pharmacy-or-bust" type that will not allow you to progress in your pharmacy career or in any career?

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Compensation $30-40/hr for this Jersey City, NJ independent pharmacist-in-charge position posted on craigslist today. It's about 5 miles from Manhattan.


View attachment 246532

Hahaha, what a joke

 

[gopeepants]

From people I have spoken with offers seemed to be within $54.00-$58.00 per hr for floating position at one of the big two in my midwestern state

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Of any1 tri 2 offer me job less then $77/hr I will call BOLICE

 

[projektreverb]

Of any1 tri 2 offer me job less then $77/hr I will call BOLICE

76.99. Final offer.

 

[ranger99rx]

Yes. But that means no vacation. That’s why I just did 48 weeks a year.

You still get paid while on vacation unless you use more than what you are eligible for.

 

[BC_89]

Who knows. It’s not an exciting offer. Firstly, I get healthcare benefits if I work at least 30hr/wk.
They pay $5 extra for overtime (this just made me feel defeated)
Since I’m a floater I’m not even guaranteed the hours to qualify for healthcare benefits.

$54.90 is the target range for Midwest new grads. $114k starting out is better than most and a $15 hourly pay pump from your previous job is a lot for anyone (as for the 100k extra debt: that was something you knew would happen or else you didn’t crunch the numbers).

If not getting the 40 hours as a floater concerns you, would picking up a weekend job working in retail or even as a RN seem feasible?

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

If anyone is curious I'm a P4 that just got an offer from the company I'm an intern at. $51/hr 60hrs biweekly.

Pretty low COL small city in the Northeast.

 

[nhann]

Hello fellas,

Since pharmacy saturation is a real thing, what can we do to let the government know to take action on this crisis? I am sure the government is aware of this situation but they just don't want to do anything about it.
Anyone knows if any of our fellas have submitted a complaint to the government?

 

[awval999]

Why would the government care?

 

[alpha12]

The govt should do nothing. If I owned a blockbuster I can't cry to the govt and complain that netflix is stealing my business. Things change and businesses adapt. Pharmacists should adapt too. Free market capitalism.

 

[PharmtoCS]

We could write a letter to the government asking them to stop issuing blank checks in student loans to anyone with a pulse. This is the reason pharmacy schools can open on every corner and charge as much as they want.

Not that the government isn’t aware of the student debt crisis already.

 

[Judgment Dragon]

There is nothing we can do.

 

[Timbo]

It's no one's fault but the pharmacy school applicants. As long as there are tens of thousands of people every year willing to put themselves in +$200k debt only to end up earning a $70-80k salary, the problem will persist and worsen. Now why anyone would do that when a master's or maybe even a bachelor's degree could earn them the same salary with less debt is beyond me, but isn't it their right to do so?

 

[BC_89]

Not pharmacy but with loans in general (as previously stated). Cap the amount of fed loans allowable for school. Two things will happen.

1) programs start lowering their costs

2) Students will realize that going toward private loans with high APR financially “doesn’t” add up and will thus stop attending programs forcing institute shutdowns and a fair margin of tuition pricing.

Students should be mandated to take business math along with an emphasis on compounded numbers and yearly % ratings.

 

[nafcillin]

Doctors have the AMA to not flood the market with poor quality doctors. Why didn’t our organization do the same? Is it run by pharmacists and if so, do they not understand the concept or supply and demand?

It’s not the government’s fault and it’s not the students fault. After all, there was tons of press awhile ago about the pharmacist shortage. Bonuses and cars and a six figure income right out of school? Sign me up!

It is a lack of action from our equivalent of the AMA. They haven’t spoken up and addressed this issue to get the schools to stop opening.

 

[nafcillin]

What pharmacist need to do is talk with the media and get the word out that the shortage is REAL. Are you delivering pizzas with 250k of student loan debt? Call buzzfeed! Bloomberg. Any other news source. They reported on the shortage surely they can comment on the surplus, which certainly isn’t sexy but it is our best chance of getting our profession back. Why? This discourages new applicants who are walking into this mess

 

[Sine Cura]

Let it burn

 

[spacecowgirl]

Stop taking students, and definitely do not allow students from schools that don't pay a stipend. 4th year is a cash cow. Interview students and have high standards before precepting like must be from a school accredited before 2010, or have a GPA of 3.5, a bachelor's in Chem, or be left handed and a saxophonist. IDGAF. Stop incentivizing schools. Dry up rotation sites. Complain to the BOP? I don't know, I don't precept any longer but when I did I insisted on being paid. Not me ,of course, but my site. Or insist on more money. I'm sure too many sites depend on the free labor so it won't work but it's a way that doesn't involve any association or agency.

 

[Seriously Serious]

At this point, we just have to wait for the market to correct itself. Number of jobs and quality of graduates are decreasing each year exponentially.

 

[Lnsean]

Every profession is saturated in a sense...even doctors...they have mid levels on to of that.

 

[zelman]

Doctors have the AMA to not flood the market with poor quality doctors. Why didn’t our organization do the same? Is it run by pharmacists and if so, do they not understand the concept or supply and demand?

It’s not the government’s fault and it’s not the students fault. After all, there was tons of press awhile ago about the pharmacist shortage. Bonuses and cars and a six figure income right out of school? Sign me up!

It is a lack of action from our equivalent of the AMA. They haven’t spoken up and addressed this issue to get the schools to stop opening.

Our “AMA” is APhA and they represent the interests of their platinum members: corporate chain pharmacies. Saturation is great for CVS.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

At this point, we just have to wait for the market to correct itself. Number of jobs and quality of graduates are decreasing each year exponentially.

The market isn’t going to correct itself. You left out the most important metric, the number of fresh grad PharmD’s schools are pumping out per year.

 

[Ra1nMak3r]

I had a conversation with one of the DLs in my region last year about starting pay for new grads and where it’s trending. He said as overall company that it’s going down but our region is still competitive enough that it slightly decreased by $0.50 from 2017-2018. Apparently my region is concerned about keeping talents and preventing turnovers. But the region south of us was starting their new grads $10-$15 less because of saturation.

 

[DagS132]

 

[Seriously Serious]

The market isn’t going to correct itself. You left out the most important metric, the number of fresh grad PharmD’s schools are pumping out per year.

That's exactly why it will correct itself, it's unsustainable. Universities are taking advantage of the cash grab before it all implodes.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

That's exactly why it will correct itself, it's unsustainable. Universities are taking advantage of the cash grab before it all implodes.

Why is it unsustainable? They will keep lowering admission standards to keep their seats filled. Matter of fact they are still opening up new pharmacy schools in this day and age, and schools are hiring fresh PGY-1 grads for faculty positions. I’d imagine that in the next 5-10 years we’re going to start seeing schools hire faculty straight out of school with no additional training.

If it’s unsustainable because easy federal loan money might go away in the future, then this will affect all professions/graduate programs and not just pharmacy.

 

[Amicable Angora]

I don’t know if anyone else feels this way, but I’m sure tired of the massive trolling that this profession seems to attract on this forum.

 

[Sine Cura]

There are an estimated 100 billion people who have ever lived. Many people living today are in the historical 1%. Who has room to bitch then?

 

[gwarm01]

I think it is important to remain cognizant of the factors affecting our profession in the long term. The troll posters are just a vocal minority. I wouldn't let their presence sour the mood on a valid topic.

 

[Gombrich12]

So what you're saying is we need to grab the means of production?

 

[CetiAlphaFive]

Was this meant to go on LinkedIn?

 

[PharFromNormal]

So what you're saying is we need to grab the means of production?

Yes I think it’s something along the lines of don’t complain about the 30 pages that are red in production.

 

[nafcillin]

How many pharmacy schools have opened recently?

 

[steveysmith54]

Start by taking **** to deans or any faculty who work for new schools. Shame them. Make them feel like they are garbage that they are

 

[steveysmith54]

Don’t precept or hire graduates of new schools. Make them feel like second rate citizens

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

How many pharmacy schools have opened recently?

Marshall B Ketchum opened in 2016.
Larkin Health Sciences Institute opened in 2016.
Fred Wilson opened in 2016.
Binghamton University opened in 2017.
University of Texas at El Paso opened in 2017.
Medical College of Wisconsin opened in 2017.
William Carey University opened in 2018.

So that’s 7 in the last 2 years with UC Irvine and Creighton’s second campus slated to open in 2019/2020 and who knows how many more announcements we will hear about this year.

 

[BC_89]

A long rant for those of you who might want to look at things from a fresh perspective.

Yes the pharmacy profession is in decline. But should we be crying over spilled milk? Pharmacist salaries have skyrocketed since the 80's even after adjusting for inflation (Pharmacists :: Salaries - see the drop-down menu and feel free to fact check with different sources). A pharmacist is much wealthier in comparison to the average person today than they were 20 or 30 years ago. We're actually working as our profession is peaking and yet we complain about the inevitable decline years down the road. And it will be years. The war on the pharmaceutical industry is coming which should bring down the cost of goods sold and improve margins. Amazon didn't get its start in drug retail for a reason. CVS basically owns the healthcare industry now and it's not for sale. They're rolling out pharmacy services with Aetna. Amazon disrupted retail which destroyed Toys R Us, but Walmart is still soaring. Amazon is reaching for growth that is unsustainable over the long term. The day will come when they run out of low hanging fruit and it turns out it wasn't a tree they were picking from, but the dingleberries of an ornery silverback gorilla (that would be Larry Merlo in our metaphor). Look at Apple now. Amazon will mature, stagnate and find an equilibrium with the best competitors just like every other company in history. That juicy multiple is going to take a big hit as we go into our next recession. Our field is changing and more competitive and dynamic, not dying.

Going to pharmacy school now with what school costs having to compete with all these orangutans would be a bad decision, but if you're practicing and making 6 figures quit complaining because you have a better standard of living than almost every other person on our planet. You only need to make $32k a year to be in the global 1%. People will always irrationally compare themselves to their neighbor rather than the absolute. Back in the 1800's, a 12-hour shift was rewarded with enough CVS extrabucks to buy yourself a bit of flour and lard at the company store. Happiness doesn't increase above a salary of 70k a year (I'm sure most of you have heard of this study). Focus on your life relationships and adventures rather than crying about whether or not you'll be a millionaire rather than "just" an average person in a wealthy society. Europeans have figured this out - they're happy with everyone being average. They spend their time on things that matter. Unfortunately, Americans choose to worry, stress and work our lives away to buy garbage we don't need (the consumer trap). Save your money for a rainy day. Or just use it to buy time for the free things in life.

Yes student debt is in a bubble and unsustainable, automation is coming and work conditions are deteriorating, but that can be said of literally any profession now. This isn't the 80's--no career is safe. Lawyers and accountants are being automated and competition has increased just as it has for pharmacists. Have you seen how understaffed nurses are shoveling **** making half what we make? And I thought their career was future proof? You want that unicorn programming job? Have fun typing code into a computer for 8 hours a day, everyday. At least we get to work with people and feel emotion. Physicians don't have a life until their mid-thirties and if you're financially literate/can use a financial calculator and understand net present value then you can calculate that a pharmacist makes almost as much as a general practitioner (tax differential, opportunity cost of school, tuition, investing money earlier). But hey, if retiring "only" on a couple million as a pharmacist and having time to spend with your family isn't enough for you go work 70 hours a week in finance and regret it when you realize the money and hours worked brought you no joy in life. And the financial industry is in even more dire straights than pharmacy. Ever heard of ETFs? TurboTax? Computers?

I'll end with this. At least one objective study seems to show that even though intuitively we think pharmacy is susceptible to automation, compared to other professions we're actually not doing too bad (Will Robots Take My job?). Now go find a girlfriend or read a ****ing book for ****s sake.

I don’t know if anyone else feels this way, but I’m sure tired of the massive trolling that this profession seems to attract on this forum.

There are an estimated 100 billion people who have ever lived. Many people living today are in the historical 1%. Who has room to bitch then?

I think it is important to remain cognizant of the factors affecting our profession in the long term. The troll posters are just a vocal minority. I wouldn't let their presence sour the mood on a valid topic.

Was this meant to go on LinkedIn?

Yes I think it’s something along the lines of don’t complain about the 30 pages that are red in production.

Merging posts due to the topic of the pharmacy market. It’s important we put the information in one location

 

[BC_89]

Merging with mega-thread: Pharmacy Job Market

Hello fellas,

Since pharmacy saturation is a real thing, what can we do to let the government know to take action on this crisis? I am sure the government is aware of this situation but they just don't want to do anything about it.
Anyone knows if any of our fellas have submitted a complaint to the government?

Why would the government care?

The govt should do nothing. If I owned a blockbuster I can't cry to the govt and complain that netflix is stealing my business. Things change and businesses adapt. Pharmacists should adapt too. Free market capitalism.

We could write a letter to the government asking them to stop issuing blank checks in student loans to anyone with a pulse. This is the reason pharmacy schools can open on every corner and charge as much as they want.

Not that the government isn’t aware of the student debt crisis already.

There is nothing we can do.

It's no one's fault but the pharmacy school applicants. As long as there are tens of thousands of people every year willing to put themselves in +$200k debt only to end up earning a $70-80k salary, the problem will persist and worsen. Now why anyone would do that when a master's or maybe even a bachelor's degree could earn them the same salary with less debt is beyond me, but isn't it their right to do so?

Not pharmacy but with loans in general (as previously stated). Cap the amount of fed loans allowable for school. Two things will happen.

1) programs start lowering their costs

2) Students will realize that going toward private loans with high APR financially “doesn’t” add up and will thus stop attending programs forcing institute shutdowns and a fair margin of tuition pricing.

Students should be mandated to take business math along with an emphasis on compounded numbers and yearly % ratings.

Doctors have the AMA to not flood the market with poor quality doctors. Why didn’t our organization do the same? Is it run by pharmacists and if so, do they not understand the concept or supply and demand?

It’s not the government’s fault and it’s not the students fault. After all, there was tons of press awhile ago about the pharmacist shortage. Bonuses and cars and a six figure income right out of school? Sign me up!

It is a lack of action from our equivalent of the AMA. They haven’t spoken up and addressed this issue to get the schools to stop opening.

What pharmacist need to do is talk with the media and get the word out that the shortage is REAL. Are you delivering pizzas with 250k of student loan debt? Call buzzfeed! Bloomberg. Any other news source. They reported on the shortage surely they can comment on the surplus, which certainly isn’t sexy but it is our best chance of getting our profession back. Why? This discourages new applicants who are walking into this mess

Stop taking students, and definitely do not allow students from schools that don't pay a stipend. 4th year is a cash cow. Interview students and have high standards before precepting like must be from a school accredited before 2010, or have a GPA of 3.5, a bachelor's in Chem, or be left handed and a saxophonist. IDGAF. Stop incentivizing schools. Dry up rotation sites. Complain to the BOP? I don't know, I don't precept any longer but when I did I insisted on being paid. Not me ,of course, but my site. Or insist on more money. I'm sure too many sites depend on the free labor so it won't work but it's a way that doesn't involve any association or agency.

At this point, we just have to wait for the market to correct itself. Number of jobs and quality of graduates are decreasing each year exponentially.

Every profession is saturated in a sense...even doctors...they have mid levels on to of that.

Our “AMA” is APhA and they represent the interests of their platinum members: corporate chain pharmacies. Saturation is great for CVS.

The market isn’t going to correct itself. You left out the most important metric, the number of fresh grad PharmD’s schools are pumping out per year.

View attachment 247111

That's exactly why it will correct itself, it's unsustainable. Universities are taking advantage of the cash grab before it all implodes.

Why is it unsustainable? They will keep lowering admission standards to keep their seats filled. Matter of fact they are still opening up new pharmacy schools in this day and age, and schools are hiring fresh PGY-1 grads for faculty positions. I’d imagine that in the next 5-10 years we’re going to start seeing schools hire faculty straight out of school with no additional training.

If it’s unsustainable because easy federal loan money might go away in the future, then this will affect all professions/graduate programs and not just pharmacy.

How many pharmacy schools have opened recently?

Start by taking **** to deans or any faculty who work for new schools. Shame them. Make them feel like they are garbage that they are

Don’t precept or hire graduates of new schools. Make them feel like second rate citizens

Marshall B Ketchum opened in 2016.
Larkin Health Sciences Institute opened in 2016.
Fred Wilson opened in 2016.
Binghamton University opened in 2017.
University of Texas at El Paso opened in 2017.
Medical College of Wisconsin opened in 2017.
William Carey University opened in 2018.

So that’s 7 in the last 2 years with UC Irvine and Creighton’s second campus slated to open in 2019/2020 and who knows how many more announcements we will hear about this year.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

Why merge "It's Not Our Profession, It's Our Society - A Little Perspective" thread into here and but not even repost it?

Let things run their course a little more, please. I don't see the sense in merging that here so quickly.

 

[sosoo]

in my district of 12 stores, 7 pharmacists were fired or forced to resign.

please stay on topic. i'm curious to know how many cvs pharmacists became an unemployment statistic in 2018.