OMFS 4 year Programs?

[thatsjustmygame]

I am a DS3 down in Texas who has frequented these threads but never joined in until now. I am obviously interested in OMS and really enjoyed a 4 week externship this past summer at an excellent 6-year program. This coming summer I would like to get a few more externships under my belt and I would like to spend some of that time at a four year program just so that I can get a good feel of both program types before I decide for sure which route that I would like to take. Basically, my intent is to get names and suggestions of quality, highly-respected 4-year programs that I can look into. Please give me some good opinions, facts, hints, other references to peruse, etc. I appreciate any advice/help/input. Best Regards.

Cheers

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[toofache32]

This is only what I've heard from a recent intern who applied and matched at a 4-year program. I remember that he liked Oklahoma, Virginia, and Cincinatti. I've heard good things about Knoxville, TN also...they have no ENT or Plastics residencies to compete with. Jacksonville, FL is sort of new since they split off from Gainesville's program, but I've heard some good things about it also.

 

[north2southOMFS]

I thought...................

Washington
Minnesota (twin cities)
Iowa
Ohio State
UF Jax
Miami

.............were all good programs when i interviewed at them.

 

[Doggie]

Methinks these are some good 4 year programs:

Washington Hospital (DC)
Montifiore (NY)
Miami

These were places that I either interviewed at or were suggested to me by my OMFS mentor in dental school. Sorry that I dont have any more suggestions since I mainly concentrated on 6 year programs during my application process.

 

[Doggie]

Jacksonville, FL is sort of new since they split off from Gainesville's program, but I've heard some good things about it also.

Jacksonville sent me an interview letter last year around mid september. I replied within the same day to set an interview date. They emailed me back a few days later to confirm my selection. One week later, they sent me another email saying that they are withdrawing my interview!!! WTF....... My program director was screaming WTF as well. Come match day, Jacksonville has 1 unmatched spot...........while I match into my #1 choice.

Jacksonville can kiss mah @ss.

 

[Jediwendell]

Does Parkland still have four year spots? If so, that is a good place to go. Minnesota has a good reputation. I know the director at Cincinnati, and he is very knowledgable and well respected (if old). Tennessee was good enough to draw a strong sniff from Ed Ellis when they were having some difficulties at Parkland a few years ago. Miami has Marx. Nuff said there. Iowa has a reputation for being a phenomenal bread a butter type program. Galveston is good if you want to be a third molar/implant oral surgeon and still not get completely slaughtered during residency, or so I hear . May actually be different when you get there. Good education, though. I know the director at Jacksonville, Tirbod Fattahi. He is generally a standup guy, and I am very WTF about taking away an interview, as well. I did a week at Jacksonville when they were still affiliated with UF and it was very strong craniofacial. I didn't see a single tooth get extracted the whole week, but I did see a lateral cleft repair, an OMS guy stitching up the dura, multiple rib grafts for a kid born without a cranial vault, and an orbital osteotomy for relocation of the orbit. All by four year guys. I can't verify that they do that stuff regularly or now, but I was taken aback by what was going down there. UNC has a four year spot. Can't go wrong there. Particularly for Orthognathic/traditional.

 

[Jediwendell]

Does Parkland still have four year spots? If so, that is a good place to go. Minnesota has a good reputation. I know the director at Cincinnati, and he is very knowledgable and well respected (if old). Tennessee was good enough to draw a strong sniff from Ed Ellis when they were having some difficulties at Parkland a few years ago. Miami has Marx. Nuff said there. Iowa has a reputation for being a phenomenal bread a butter type program. Galveston is good if you want to be a third molar/implant oral surgeon and still not get completely slaughtered during residency, or so I hear . May actually be different when you get there. Good education, though. I know the director at Jacksonville, Tirbod Fattahi. He is generally a standup guy, and I am very WTF about taking away an interview, as well. I did a week at Jacksonville when they were still affiliated with UF and it was very strong craniofacial. I didn't see a single tooth get extracted the whole week, but I did see a lateral cleft repair, an OMS guy stitching up the dura, multiple rib grafts for a kid born without a cranial vault, and an orbital osteotomy for relocation of the orbit. All by four year guys. I can't verify that they do that stuff regularly or now, but I was taken aback by what was going down there. UNC has a four year spot. Can't go wrong there. Particularly for Orthognathic/traditional.

Houston is pretty good, too. Dr. Wong is awesome.

 

[north2southOMFS]

I agree with Jedi, i had the same experience at UF Jax on my externship. But the whole takeing away of an interview? Is that even allowed? I'd be so pissed,.....I would write them a letter now that you matched and tell them you got your number one and hope they have fun post matching...losers.


Houston like jedi said is good, BUT.....you also have 6 year guys at the hospital and when that is the case, the "other" hospital residents and staff are always going to look more highly upon them than the 4 year guys. I know this is wrong so don't flame me but this is what people who have no idea about our profession ignorantly believe.

good luck.


wow, about that withdrawl of the interview....I'd be so pisssed!!!!

 

[esclavo]

Basically, my intent is to get names and suggestions of quality, highly-respected 4-year programs that I can look into. Please give me some good opinions, facts, hints, other references to peruse, etc. I appreciate any advice/help/input. Best Regards.

Cheers

There are two reasons to go to an OMFS externship. One is to get exposure to the program/see what they do (see if the residents/attendings are a bunch of malignant pricks). The second is to get to do a bunch of crap yourself (give yourself resident-like exposure... see if you can handle the stringent training environment created by the afore mentioned "pricks"). Good externships satisfy both criteria but most won't. I have heard that doing an externship at Iowa is downright boring, but it is a great bread/butter OMFS residency to train at. Tons of dental alveolar/orthognathic. My buddy is the chief there. Iowa has a top notch ENT residency. He feels it limits their exposure some of the wider scope OMFS...but as has been discussed in other OMFS threads, "the piggy-bank is behind the 2nd molar...". I went to dental school at Minnesota and it is both a great program and a good externship. I've heard Tennessee is the same. My program is great to train at but maybe not the best to get to do some FMTE's/arch bars on mullet-headed trolls at 3 am.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

My program is great to train at but maybe not the best to get to do some FMTE's/arch bars on mullet-headed trolls at 3 am.

If mullet-headed trolls is what you're looking for, then head on down south. You can count on plenty of them coming through the hospital regardless of the time of day, and if that's not enough, you can always spend some time in TXOMS's basement.

 

[Bifid Uvula]

I heard awful things about externing at UF Gainesville... U are better off checking out UF Jax if you extern in FL. Miami is a great program, but they no longer accept any externs PERIOD... same with Christiana in Delaware (but I think they will let you come on an "observational" basis at least.).

Other great externships are UMKC (they require 4 weeks), U Maryland 2-4 weeks, LSU Shreveport and LSU New Orleans, Parkland (highly competitive even for the externship), and Washington Hospital Center.

 

[thatsjustmygame]

Thanks a bunch to everyone for all of the input and keep it coming if their is more out there. The more opinions the better.

 

[thatsjustmygame]

Here are a few others that I have looked at online and wanted to see of anyone knew anything about.

How about the programs at:
-Medical College of Georgia
-Denver Health
-West Virginia School of Dentistry

Another quick question:
Their has been some response about Tennessee and I am curious as to which program in Tennessee. Are the references to the program in Memphis or some of the others? Thanks

 

[Bifid Uvula]

Here are a few others that I have looked at online and wanted to see of anyone knew anything about.

How about the programs at:
-Medical College of Georgia
-Denver Health
-West Virginia School of Dentistry

I'm not sure any of those would be "awesome" externship experiences.... of course a large part of the experience is what you make of it. Its not a bad idea to call up the program and ask some questions. When i did my externships I was given a list of responsibilities and duties expected of the extern. A lot of how you get treated at a program has to do with your attitude, demeanor, ability to keep your mouth shut, and being "eyes and ears." Taking initiative too... carrying with you the light, the sticks and swabs... having those handy for the senior resident on rounds. Its not about doing scut...but chances are that is a lot of what you will get. But if you do it, and you don't complain and u work hard they note that. Take call as much as possible... get up and go for everything the residents get called on. Its just my take on a few little things... things u probably already know anyway.

 

[toofache32]

This Jacksonville stuff reminds me of one of my classmate's experiences. After his interview, they called him to say they really liked him and that they were ranking him as their first choice. So he ranked them first also. On match day, he couldn't have been more surprised if he had woken up with his head sewn to the carpet. He matched at his 5th choice (Emory).

This is an old trick that you have to look out for. There isn't supposed to be any communication about ranking order, but some places do this (supposedly) to pad their rank lists.

 

[adamlc18]

This Jacksonville stuff reminds me of one of my classmate's experiences. After his interview, they called him to say they really liked him and that they were ranking him as their first choice. So he ranked them first also. On match day, he couldn't have been more surprised if he had woken up with his head sewn to the carpet. He matched at his 5th choice (Emory).

This is an old trick that you have to look out for. There isn't supposed to be any communication about ranking order, but some places do this (supposedly) to pad their rank lists.

How does your ex-classmate like Emory? That is a place I am thinking about externing and applying for...well one of the 4-yr spots.

 

[toofache32]

How does your ex-classmate like Emory? That is a place I am thinking about externing and applying for...well one of the 4-yr spots.

He never started. Never even showed up for the first day. Real classy.

 

[adamlc18]

He never started. Never even showed up for the first day. Real classy.

Why did he do that? I can't think of a reason short of getting in a car wreck or finding out my wife has a terminal illness the week before.

 

[Doggie]

This Jacksonville stuff reminds me of one of my classmate's experiences. After his interview, they called him to say they really liked him and that they were ranking him as their first choice. So he ranked them first also. On match day, he couldn't have been more surprised if he had woken up with his head sewn to the carpet. He matched at his 5th choice (Emory).

This is an old trick that you have to look out for. There isn't supposed to be any communication about ranking order, but some places do this (supposedly) to pad their rank lists.

My classmate interviewed at I think 15 or so places. He finally narrowed it down to ranking about 11 or 12 places. A few days after he sent in his rank list, he told me he kinda regretted ranking the last 2 spots and should have only ranked 10 spots. Come match day, he got into his 11th choice.........kings county (NY).

 

[tx oms]

I am a DS3 down in Texas who has frequented these threads but never joined in until now.

Which school are you at?

 

[drhobie7]

Methinks these are some good 4 year programs:

Washington Hospital (DC)
Montifiore (NY)
Miami

These were places that I either interviewed at or were suggested to me by my OMFS mentor in dental school. Sorry that I dont have any more suggestions since I mainly concentrated on 6 year programs during my application process.

I'll be externing at Montefiore next month. I heard good things too.

 

[GatorDMD]

My classmate interviewed at I think 15 or so places. He finally narrowed it down to ranking about 11 or 12 places. A few days after he sent in his rank list, he told me he kinda regretted ranking the last 2 spots and should have only ranked 10 spots. Come match day, he got into his 11th choice.........kings county (NY).

DAMN!! I was hoping for 10 interviews! Now I have to hope and pray for 12!? This is going to be a stressful and expensive fall...hopefully.

 

[GatorDMD]

This Jacksonville stuff reminds me of one of my classmate's experiences. After his interview, they called him to say they really liked him and that they were ranking him as their first choice. So he ranked them first also. On match day, he couldn't have been more surprised if he had woken up with his head sewn to the carpet. He matched at his 5th choice (Emory).

This is an old trick that you have to look out for. There isn't supposed to be any communication about ranking order, but some places do this (supposedly) to pad their rank lists.

not a bad 5th spot i would think. A 2005 grad last year told me that Jax told him also that he would be first on their list and so he ranked them first. he got into his 2nd or 3rd spot! What is up with the lies?

 

[GatorDMD]

I'll be externing at Montefiore next month. I heard good things too.

what they heck are you doing up at 3am? I have an excuse. insomnia.

 

[seablaster]

I have to agree with Gator on this one. I would have thought that an individual receiving that many interviews would have been sought after by many progams. I don't find it very reassuring that matching at your 11th choice actually happens in reality. I suspect people place the most emphasis on the top 5 choices in their rank order lists. As far as uninviting applicants for interviews, was any reason given?

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I don't find it very reassuring that matching at your 11th choice actually happens in reality. I suspect people place the most emphasis on the top 5 choices in their rank order lists.

I applied to 16 schools (all 6-year programs), got 13 interviews, only went on six of them, and ranked five. I matched at LSU-Shreve. I won't tell you where I ranked them only because I don't want TXOMS's head to get any larger...

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

This is an old trick that you have to look out for. There isn't supposed to be any communication about ranking order, but some places do this (supposedly) to pad their rank lists.

I couldn't believe how much of this goes on. In my opinion, this kind of crap should tell you something. If it's a good program, why would they have to "pad" their lists? Be wary. At one program in particular, the Program Director went on and on with me about how I'm exactly the kind of guy that they want at their program, blah, blah, blah. It reeked of BS, so I started asking the other interviewees if they had gotten the same--they had. I didn't rank them...

If you're interested, PM me, and I'll tell you where it was...

 

[north2southOMFS]

It was that program in puerto rico wasn't it.

 

[Periogod]

I applied to 16 schools (all 6-year programs), got 13 interviews, only went on six of them, and ranked five. I matched at LSU-Shreve. I won't tell you where I ranked them only because I don't want TXOMS's head to get any larger...

Dude, I thought you told me you were pissed you didn't get in at UMKC (your #1 choice) and that the only reason you decided to go to LSU-Shreveport (your #5 choice) was because you thought one of the residents was "dreamy".

 

[toofache32]

Why did he do that? I can't think of a reason short of getting in a car wreck or finding out my wife has a terminal illness the week before.

Sort of a long story, but he was always wishy-washy about whether or not he wanted to do oral surgery. After he didn't get his first choice, he decided to just go into general practice. He should have at least told the program.

 

[toofache32]

I couldn't believe how much of this goes on. In my opinion, this kind of crap should tell you something. If it's a good program, why would they have to "pad" their lists? Be wary. At one program in particular, the Program Director went on and on with me about how I'm exactly the kind of guy that they want at their program, blah, blah, blah. It reeked of BS, so I started asking the other interviewees if they had gotten the same--they had. I didn't rank them...

If you're interested, PM me, and I'll tell you where it was...

This never happened to me (I guess nobody wanted me) but I was warned this might happen. I agree that you should be wary of programs that do this. Another guy who applied my year had this happen with Alabama, which surprised me because I think they have a really strong program.

 

[thatsjustmygame]

Which school are you at?

I am at UT San Antonio.

And yourself?

 

[north2southOMFS]

Dude, I thought you told me you were pissed you didn't get in at UMKC (your #1 choice) and that the only reason you decided to go to LSU-Shreveport (your #5 choice) was because you thought one of the residents was "dreamy".

I have to admit. I am a good looking man.......yes, I would call myself dreamy.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Dude, I thought you told me you were pissed you didn't get in at UMKC (your #1 choice) and that the only reason you decided to go to LSU-Shreveport (your #5 choice) was because you thought one of the residents was "dreamy".

Actually, it's easier for your wife and I to get together when I'm within driving distance. Really, I didn't even have much of a choice. You ought to know as well as anyone how demanding she is...

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

Another guy who applied my year had this happen with Alabama, which surprised me because I think they have a really strong program.

I surprised to hear that, too. I really liked UAB--externed there. I got along really well with the residents. On match day, the guy that would have been my chief called me, and said, "LSU?!? What happened, man?!?" I never had any discussions with them about ranking, so I was surprised when I got the call. What dropped them on my rank list was that they have to wear shirt and tie in the clinic and that Dr. Louis and Dr. Waite like to do a lot of their own cutting. I want to do the cutting...

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I have to admit. I am a good looking man.......yes, I would call myself dreamy.

I've never seen you look as dreamy as last Friday when the strippers were punching holes in your underwear with their porn-star heels...too bad you don't remember!

 

[Jediwendell]

Man that is one disgusting avatar you have there N2S.

I have to admit. I am a good looking man.......yes, I would call myself dreamy.

 

[tx oms]

I am at UT San Antonio.

And yourself?

I'm a resident in oral surgery, but I went to dental school at UT San Antonio, class of 2003. I have a couple of good friends that are still D4's there. I'll be heading back to San Antonio for the month of October to do a month long oral path rotation with Drs. Jones and McGuff.

 

[thatsjustmygame]

I'm a resident in oral surgery, but I went to dental school at UT San Antonio, class of 2003. I have a couple of good friends that are still D4's there. I'll be heading back to San Antonio for the month of October to do a month long oral path rotation with Drs. Jones and McGuff.

Nice. I guess you were out of here right before I showed up. How are you liking residency, your choice of programs, etc.?

 

[gryffindor]

My classmate interviewed at I think 15 or so places. He finally narrowed it down to ranking about 11 or 12 places. A few days after he sent in his rank list, he told me he kinda regretted ranking the last 2 spots and should have only ranked 10 spots. Come match day, he got into his 11th choice.........kings county (NY).

Ok, I never understand this approach. How bad did the applicant want Oral Surgery? King's County OMFS is no Cornell OMFS, but better King's County OMFS rather than not matching anywhere and having to do King's County GPR b/c you know that GPR ALWAYS has spots post-match. Maybe after the 10th interview, one's ego comes into play and you start thinking you are tough stuff and of course you'll match, why not, everyone wants you. Everyone loves you, why else did you get all the interviews. Because I would think that come match day, it would be better to be in any of the 15 OMS programs you interviewed at, rather than matching nowhere and scrambling to find a GPR to waste a year making dentures. Well I guess in the case of OMS you could do a 1 year internship, but still, that doesn't bring you any closer to your OMS certificate.

I dunno. My opinion would be to rank everyone. If you are thinking of not ranking a program, then think again about how badly you want the specialty. Would you rather spend the year working toward your specialty certificate, or would you rather spend the year hanging out in a GPR/internship/private practice drilling & filling and waiting for the next application cycle?

 

[esclavo]

I dunno. My opinion would be to rank everyone. If you are thinking of not ranking a program, then think again about how badly you want the specialty. Would you rather spend the year working toward your specialty certificate, or would you rather spend the year hanging out in a GPR/internship/private practice drilling & filling and waiting for the next application cycle?[/QUOTE]

I wouldn't recommend anything but an OMFS intership if you want to get into OMFS. Most programs won't look at a guy who has spent an hour in private practice. I've heard program directors call this "poor orientation to OMFS" thus application in the waste basket. Some GPR's are excellent but many are very shakey in preparation for OMFS. Hennepin County GPR in Minneapolis (lots of OMFS exposure and mandatory 1-2 months on anesthesia) is excellent and there is another in Vermont or New Hampshire that is awesome (no associated OMFS program). We interviewed a guy this last year who was at this GPR and he had scrubbed about 60 OMFS cases by interview time and they were impressive (not full mouths in the OR crap but trauma/orthognathic stuff). I wish I remembered the name. There was a few OMFS attendings but no residents. He was given freedom in his GPR to scrub any case he wanted as first assistant! These were the best two GPR's I'd heard of. As a general rule, stick to OMFS internships.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

I dunno. My opinion would be to rank everyone. If you are thinking of not ranking a program, then think again about how badly you want the specialty. Would you rather spend the year working toward your specialty certificate, or would you rather spend the year hanging out in a GPR/internship/private practice drilling & filling and waiting for the next application cycle?

I only ranked 5 schools last year. I would have much rather done an intern year somewhere that I liked and reapply the next year than spend six miserable years at a place that I knew I didn't want to be. But that's just me...

 

[gryffindor]

I only ranked 5 schools last year. I would have much rather done an intern year somewhere that I liked and reapply the next year than spend six miserable years at a place that I knew I didn't want to be. But that's just me...

Yeah, that's what I used to think too.

Until I got shafted by Match two years in a row.

(Again, I am talking about ortho, not oral surgery. But the Match statistics show that after match day, there are a lot of candidates who do not match into oral surgery.)

 

[esclavo]

I only ranked 5 schools last year. I would have much rather done an intern year somewhere that I liked and reapply the next year than spend six miserable years at a place that I knew I didn't want to be. But that's just me...

In my experience, it's not IF you will be miserable (4-6 years) but HOW miserable. Just different degrees of misery if you catch my drift.

 

[OMFSCardsFan]

In my experience, it's not IF you will be miserable (4-6 years) but HOW miserable. Just different degrees of misery if you catch my drift.

I'm getting my ass kicked here (in terms of working hours), but I'm loving every minute of it. I couldn't be happier at my program--and I even have to deal with TXOMS on a daily basis.

I'll agree with you that I'd probably see things differently if I didn't match two years in a row, though. That would suck...