Obama v. McCain

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So I will take this as meaning you are OK with increased socialism and would gladly donate 100K per year to give 10 other people 10K a year? I agree there are other issues, but just ignoring Obama's socialistic trends GIVEN the Pelosi/Rangel coalition in congress is not going to make it go away.

I have yet to hear one valid argument in favor of 1000 refundible tax credits paid for my increasing taxes on anyone who makes over 250K. That is class warfare.


Excellent job of reading my comment, then persisting to ignore many other relevant issues facing this election. I'm not ignoring anything. I was just wondering why this thread seemed to be ignoring evrything BUT taxes.

Bonus for assuming you know what the fck I want to do with my tax money.

Point deduction for your gross misrepresentation of how our tax dollars work.

Extra credit for the hyperbole of comparing taxes to warfare. Your jargon should be used for military recruitment. "War! It's not much different than the taxes you pay!" Of course, on second thought, maybe war isn't much different. In both cases, a select few carry the burden for the masses.

Here's my question then: If you believe taxes should be more equitable, should military service? Mandatory draft for all citizens?

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Bertelman said:
I was just wondering why this thread seemed to be ignoring evrything BUT taxes.

Because the economy's at the forefront of everyone's mind, and taxes have a large effect on the economy (though the details are controversial). And this is a forum of doctors, a bunch of high income or future high income people who've worked extraordinarily hard all their lives to be productive citizens doing honorable work, often taking care of the absolute dregs of society. Taxing me more so they can give more money to the violent gangbanging uncooperative hepC/HIV GSW I took care of a few nights ago is hard to stomach.

I'd be absolutely willing to pay higher taxes if there was a coherent plan to balance the budget and reduce our debt. Unfortunately neither McCain nor Obama is proposing one. McCain's plan is probably closer and fairer about it but it's still tax cuts and new entitlements.

Here's my question then: If you believe taxes should be more equitable, should military service? Mandatory draft for all citizens?

Oh, god no.

JMHO, but the gap in quality between someone motivated enough to join the Marine Corps vs rank & file Army is big. There's another gap between them and the National Guard. When you get into the activated reservists, it gets really scary.

I'm not maligning the character of regular Army or reservists - they're good Americans doing their duty. But they needed a lot of ... well, just call it guidance. Even then their operational capabilities were MARKEDLY inferior to the active duty Marines and higher tier Army units (eg Ranger battalions).

I am frankly terrified of what we'd get with a draft. I'm not the best student of history but the Vietnam era draft introduced a lot of problems within units. A period of mandatory national service might be a good thing, but not if it's limited to military service. An all-volunteer military ought to be perfectly sufficient forever provided we choose our battles wisely.
 
Because the economy's at the forefront of everyone's mind, and taxes have a large effect on the economy (though the details are controversial). And this is a forum of doctors, a bunch of high income or future high income people who've worked extraordinarily hard all their lives to be productive citizens doing honorable work, often taking care of the absolute dregs of society. Taxing me more so they can give more money to the violent gangbanging uncooperative hepC/HIV GSW I took care of a few nights ago is hard to stomach.

I agree, but the conversation relating to my OP happened weeks ago, before the economy reached its current state.

I just want to know that some folks are considering more than just the tax brackets and their wealth when choosing a candidate.
 
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Excellent job of reading my comment, then persisting to ignore many other relevant issues facing this election. I'm not ignoring anything. I was just wondering why this thread seemed to be ignoring evrything BUT taxes.

Bonus for assuming you know what the fck I want to do with my tax money.

Point deduction for your gross misrepresentation of how our tax dollars work.

Extra credit for the hyperbole of comparing taxes to warfare. Your jargon should be used for military recruitment. "War! It's not much different than the taxes you pay!" Of course, on second thought, maybe war isn't much different. In both cases, a select few carry the burden for the masses.

Here's my question then: If you believe taxes should be more equitable, should military service? Mandatory draft for all citizens?


You seem to be saying here you disagree with Obama's tax plan but are going to vote for him for other reasons. Well, that is a valid point. I am just concentrating on his tax plan, because I just fail to understand how it is anything but a class warefare wealth redistribution plan. I have an economics degree, I understand how our tax system works. I am grossly oversimplifying exactly how Obama's plan would effect w2 income over 250K, mainly because it is not specifically spelled out anywhere.

However, just because you are angry about the war in Iraq (yes I think it was a big mistake too), does not mean that Obama is right about everything. I just see many strong opinions here in favor of Obama. I disagree but at least can understand positions such as, the war in Iraq is bad, no oversight of multi-national corps is bad, candidate XYZ healthcare plan is bad, or we need to raise taxes on everyone to pay for our spending and reduce the deficit.

What I don't understand and have yet to see one explaination for in this 7 page thread is why Obama's wealth redistribution plan is good for anything other than buying votes...
 
MIle125.... Then why not raise the top tax bracket to 70% and increase taxes on those wealthy 250Kers by $100K per year. If 10K is good, then 100k is better. Give everyone who makes under 100K a refundable 10K tax credit. Shoot why stop there. If some wealth redistribution is good more is better right? Lets GO back to the 50s (and in actuality there were may more tax havens so people did no actually pay that then) and have a 90% tax bracket on income over 250K. Then give everyone a 25K refundable tax credit.... You have failed to explain why wealth redistribution is good for either the economy or the deficit. And if it is good, then why stop at OBama's levels if socialism is good then communism must be better right?




Again, you have missed the point. I cant believe that some on this forum are suggesting that people who make less than 250K are "freeloaders" and "violent gangbanging uncooperatives". You are lumping 99% of our population into these categories.

A fair tax system is not the same as socialism or communism as you are trying to suggest. I think that you are trying to spread fear by using terms that have profoundly negative connotations. My mother has worked hard all of her life. She earns an honest living and makes 60-65K per year. If you compare the amount of money that she pays in taxes as a percentage of her income to five of my friends (who all make over 300K), you must conclude that our system is not fair. All of my friends use LEGAL tax deductions. Two pay less in total tax than she does and one pays only about 5K more. How is this fair? I do not fault my friends because they are not violating any laws or rules.

Now, your question about the economy. The answer depends on your prospective. If you feel that it is the top 1 percent who drive the economy then I can see how you would be opposed to Obama's strategy. However, Obama believes that it is the other 99% that drive the economy which is why he has his proposal. Bush and others have had the opposing viewpoint. Look at the mess we are in now. I think that most would say that this strategy does not work as well as advertised.
 
You seem to be saying here you disagree with Obama's tax plan but are going to vote for him for other reasons. Well, that is a valid point. I am just concentrating on his tax plan, because I just fail to understand how it is anything but a class warefare wealth redistribution plan. I have an economics degree, I understand how our tax system works. I am grossly oversimplifying exactly how Obama's plan would effect w2 income over 250K, mainly because it is not specifically spelled out anywhere.

However, just because you are angry about the war in Iraq (yes I think it was a big mistake too), does not mean that Obama is right about everything. I just see many strong opinions here in favor of Obama. I disagree but at least can understand positions such as, the war in Iraq is bad, no oversight of multi-national corps is bad, candidate XYZ healthcare plan is bad, or we need to raise taxes on everyone to pay for our spending and reduce the deficit.

What I don't understand and have yet to see one explaination for in this 7 page thread is why Obama's wealth redistribution plan is good for anything other than buying votes...




No plan is perfect. Instead of grumbling, let me hear a better plan from you. I would be interested to hear it especially given that you have an economics degree.
 
What I don't understand...is why Obama's wealth redistribution plan is good for anything other than buying votes
every time you see Biden, Obama, or their campaigners on tv, you hear "our tax plan is good for 95% of the people out there" etc. they make sure its said, every time. and in the debates, more than once. so yes, the major premiss here, is to buy votes...
 
You seem to be saying here you disagree with Obama's tax plan but are going to vote for him for other reasons. Well, that is a valid point. I am just concentrating on his tax plan, because I just fail to understand how it is anything but a class warefare wealth redistribution plan. I have an economics degree, I understand how our tax system works. I am grossly oversimplifying exactly how Obama's plan would effect w2 income over 250K, mainly because it is not specifically spelled out anywhere....


I can't say I understand enough about Obama's tax plan to disagree with it, per se. I do believe that I would rather have taxes raised w/Democratic leadership. It's hard to look past the fact that the war in Iraq is approaching the cost of the recent financial bailout/rescue. Not to say that we would have been in any different position had we not gone to Iraq. Either way, I'd rather spend tax dollars on social problems than defense.


I don't necessarily agree with everything Obama says, and I don't think anyone should. I just trust his leadership at this stage more than McCain. Eight years ago, I would have voted for McCain in a heartbeat. I just think he's a different person now. I think he has compromised his standards to attain the presidency. That's hard to overcome when your entire platform is based on moral standards.
 
every time you see Biden, Obama, or their campaigners on tv, you hear "our tax plan is good for 95% of the people out there" etc. they make sure its said, every time. and in the debates, more than once. so yes, the major premiss here, is to buy votes...


So you should make sure your plans benefit less than the majority, just to make sure no one suspects you are "buying votes"?

McCain wants to expand drilling to lower the price of fuel. That will benefit 99% of the country. Isn't he also buying votes?

Alternatively, maybe they just believe national policy should benefit the majority...
 
every time you see Biden, Obama, or their campaigners on tv, you hear "our tax plan is good for 95% of the people out there" etc. they make sure its said, every time. and in the debates, more than once. so yes, the major premiss here, is to buy votes...



not correct....he is saying this because McCann and Palin are going around telling everyone that "Obama is going to raise everyone's taxes and that this is his solution".....he didnt start saying this as much until McCann started his message..
 
RabbMD,


Is the tax code fair when several individuals who makes greater than 300K can pay less total tax than an individual who makes 65K (using legal tax deductions).
 
According to a Newsweek article from June, 72% of obama's funds have come from people making more than 250-k per year. All those 25k dinner fundraisers are for poor people?

Does the endorsement from warren buffet and george soros of obama make warren buffet a socialist?


Higher taxes is not a be all and end all for those making more than 250k.

The direction of the country and the person who can help turn around the economy play a significant role. Those who hold/make a large proportion of their wealth from investments, lose disproportionately more from a bad economy than they pay in taxes.

Because someone promises to lower taxes does not turn around an economy. Lowering taxes alone does not create jobs. How many jobs did Bush create? If McCain could offer more of an idea of what he will do maybe he could separate himself from Bush. He has repeated the same line over and over.

On welfare socialism, When a government invents reasons to go to war so 1 trillion dollars on military spending can be doled out… and billions funneled to companies such as Haliburton, with direct ties to the vice president and literally hundreds of political supporters who started companies AFTER the war, is there a term for this? Maybe socialism is not appropriate.

There are many more reasons to this other than taxes.
 
I cant believe that some on this forum are suggesting that people who make less than 250K are "freeloaders" and "violent gangbanging uncooperatives". You are lumping 99% of our population into these categories.

Do you know what a strawman is?

For the record, I'm not opposed to a progressive tax system where higher income brackets pay higher percentages of their income. Generously assuming that the worthless gangbanging uncooperative POS whose worthless life we saved (at least 'til he catches his next bullet) actually has a job and files tax returns, I'm perfectly content with him paying 10% while I pay 35%. But that's not what's being proposed.

Also for the record, taxes and Iraq are about the only thing I agree with McCain about, and even those aren't enough to get me to vote for Jesus Spice.
 
RabbMD,


Is the tax code fair when several individuals who makes greater than 300K can pay less total tax than an individual who makes 65K (using legal tax deductions).

1). As a physician I call this "one time at band camp." Basically the exception is irrelevant. Just because A pt had a friend once who got a spinal headache from a spinal and would rather have GA despite their severe COPD and difficult airway because of that does not make it a valid argument.

2). I fail to see how that is possible unless you really mean paid a lower percentage of their income in taxes.... Some quick math shows us that assuming the 300K was w2 income (its even worse if it is 1099 income) that their medicare tax was 1.45% on 300K = 4350. On 65K that is 942.5. The SS tax on the first 102K for 2008 is 6324 (6.4%). On the 65k it is 4160. So prior to income tax we are looking at $5102.5 vs $10674.

Ignoring state income tax rates since almost universally they are progressive or at least flat as well, lets look at possible deductions required to achieve what you assert.

Worse case scenario the 65K person only takes the standard deduction and nothing else... I consider that ******ed, I managed to acquire enough deductions to itemize all during my residency making under 50K each year, but that of course included student loan payments, charitable contributions, and mortgage interest. That means with no other deductions that 65K paid at most taxes on 51147.5, and that is with no other over the line deductions like moving expenses, capital losses, ect. That means that in order to pay the SAME AMOUNT of income taxes those making 300K have to somehow find 300000-10674 (deductions from taxes already paid)-51147.5 = $238,178.5 in deductions. Yes any tax credits they qualify for would reduce this number more, but unless they gave over 100K to charity I find it very hard to believe anyone could have that much in legitimate deductions, and if they do they are definately outliers, and likely to trigger an audit. However, they still have paid 4000 more in payroll taxes.


I do not have the answer for tax policy, I favor a fair tax plan (google it), but I do think that Obama's wealth redistribution plans are a slippery slope. The arguments that we should just do what favors the majority would lead to increasing tax rates drastically until the amount the top 25% or so of the earners was taxed would drastically increase and the bottom 75% of earners would get 50K "earned income credits" from the government yearly. You would gradually approach communism.

I consider that very unamerican, but then I guess the people arguing for this stuff don't believe in school grades, trophies, or making anyone feel bad about themselves ever.
 
1). As a physician I call this "one time at band camp." Basically the exception is irrelevant. Just because A pt had a friend once who got a spinal headache from a spinal and would rather have GA despite their severe COPD and difficult airway because of that does not make it a valid argument.

2). I fail to see how that is possible unless you really mean paid a lower percentage of their income in taxes.... Some quick math shows us that assuming the 300K was w2 income (its even worse if it is 1099 income) that their medicare tax was 1.45% on 300K = 4350. On 65K that is 942.5. The SS tax on the first 102K for 2008 is 6324 (6.4%). On the 65k it is 4160. So prior to income tax we are looking at $5102.5 vs $10674.

Ignoring state income tax rates since almost universally they are progressive or at least flat as well, lets look at possible deductions required to achieve what you assert.

Worse case scenario the 65K person only takes the standard deduction and nothing else... I consider that ******ed, I managed to acquire enough deductions to itemize all during my residency making under 50K each year, but that of course included student loan payments, charitable contributions, and mortgage interest. That means with no other deductions that 65K paid at most taxes on 51147.5, and that is with no other over the line deductions like moving expenses, capital losses, ect. That means that in order to pay the SAME AMOUNT of income taxes those making 300K have to somehow find 300000-10674 (deductions from taxes already paid)-51147.5 = $238,178.5 in deductions. Yes any tax credits they qualify for would reduce this number more, but unless they gave over 100K to charity I find it very hard to believe anyone could have that much in legitimate deductions, and if they do they are definately outliers, and likely to trigger an audit. However, they still have paid 4000 more in payroll taxes.


I do not have the answer for tax policy, I favor a fair tax plan (google it), but I do think that Obama's wealth redistribution plans are a slippery slope. The arguments that we should just do what favors the majority would lead to increasing tax rates drastically until the amount the top 25% or so of the earners was taxed would drastically increase and the bottom 75% of earners would get 50K "earned income credits" from the government yearly. You would gradually approach communism.

I consider that very unamerican, but then I guess the people arguing for this stuff don't believe in school grades, trophies, or making anyone feel bad about themselves ever.




There you go again comparing tax reform to communism. Do you know what the actual definition of communism is? If so, how are could you possibly suggest that Obama's plan is akin to communism.

I actual plugged in my own tax information into the online calculators for both the Obama and McCann tax plan. Do you know how much high my tax bill was? $4000 (and I am solidly in the 35% bracket). This is not the end of the world. Reality is that we are going to have a democratic congress and democratic president (i am saying that this race is over). Even though I do not like to see both Congress and the presidency under the same party, it will definitely be better than what we have currently.
 
1). As a physician I call this "one time at band camp." Basically the exception is irrelevant. Just because A pt had a friend once who got a spinal headache from a spinal and would rather have GA despite their severe COPD and difficult airway because of that does not make it a valid argument.

2). I fail to see how that is possible unless you really mean paid a lower percentage of their income in taxes.... Some quick math shows us that assuming the 300K was w2 income (its even worse if it is 1099 income) that their medicare tax was 1.45% on 300K = 4350. On 65K that is 942.5. The SS tax on the first 102K for 2008 is 6324 (6.4%). On the 65k it is 4160. So prior to income tax we are looking at $5102.5 vs $10674.

Ignoring state income tax rates since almost universally they are progressive or at least flat as well, lets look at possible deductions required to achieve what you assert.

Worse case scenario the 65K person only takes the standard deduction and nothing else... I consider that ******ed, I managed to acquire enough deductions to itemize all during my residency making under 50K each year, but that of course included student loan payments, charitable contributions, and mortgage interest. That means with no other deductions that 65K paid at most taxes on 51147.5, and that is with no other over the line deductions like moving expenses, capital losses, ect. That means that in order to pay the SAME AMOUNT of income taxes those making 300K have to somehow find 300000-10674 (deductions from taxes already paid)-51147.5 = $238,178.5 in deductions. Yes any tax credits they qualify for would reduce this number more, but unless they gave over 100K to charity I find it very hard to believe anyone could have that much in legitimate deductions, and if they do they are definately outliers, and likely to trigger an audit. However, they still have paid 4000 more in payroll taxes.


I do not have the answer for tax policy, I favor a fair tax plan (google it), but I do think that Obama's wealth redistribution plans are a slippery slope. The arguments that we should just do what favors the majority would lead to increasing tax rates drastically until the amount the top 25% or so of the earners was taxed would drastically increase and the bottom 75% of earners would get 50K "earned income credits" from the government yearly. You would gradually approach communism.

I consider that very unamerican, but then I guess the people arguing for this stuff don't believe in school grades, trophies, or making anyone feel bad about themselves ever.



Read my previous post. Most of the rich and ultrarich have paid thousands of dollars to get advice from the greatest tax minds in the country. Almost none of these individuals make their fortunes off of pure W2 income. One particularly effective strategy is to upstream income into corporations that allow for hundreds of more deductions and are taxed at a very low rate. This has been going on since the beginning of time.
 
In case you didnt see my last post:

it is easy.....the vast majority of their income in not W2 income. They incorporate one of many strategies (many in this forum probably do the same).

1) Set up multiple corporations to upstream income and then utilize an Scorp or Ccorp for hundreds of tax deductions not available to the typical W2 wage earner. Of note, the first $60000 from a CCorp is taxed at 15%.

2) Make a killing on real estate and capital gains investments which again can be taxed from 0% to 15%.

3) Utilize the tax benefits of cash value life insurance, offshore accounts, FLP's, trusts, etc.

4) Collect pay in the form of shareholder distributions which are not subject to payroll taxes.

There are many others but these are the most obvious. This has been going on since the beginning of time and is not going to change under an Obama White House contrary to popular belief. So yes, increasing a tax on the wealthiest one percent is fair because many have been paying less than their share for quite some time and will continue to do so even under an Obama tax increase.
 
Do you know what a strawman is?For the record, I'm not opposed to a progressive tax system where higher income brackets pay higher percentages of their income. Generously assuming that the worthless gangbanging uncooperative POS whose worthless life we saved (at least 'til he catches his next bullet) actually has a job and files tax returns, I'm perfectly content with him paying 10% while I pay 35%. But that's not what's being proposed.

Also for the record, taxes and Iraq are about the only thing I agree with McCain about, and even those aren't enough to get me to vote for Jesus Spice.



I dont believe that I have committed the strawman fallacy here. Go back and read what you said
 
According to a Newsweek article from June, 72% of obama’s funds have come from people making more than 250-k per year. All those 25k dinner fundraisers are for poor people?

Does the endorsement from warren buffet and george soros of obama make warren buffet a socialist?


Higher taxes is not a be all and end all for those making more than 250k.

The direction of the country and the person who can help turn around the economy play a significant role. Those who hold/make a large proportion of their wealth from investments, lose disproportionately more from a bad economy than they pay in taxes.
Because someone promises to lower taxes does not turn around an economy. Lowering taxes alone does not create jobs. How many jobs did Bush create? If McCain could offer more of an idea of what he will do maybe he could separate himself from Bush. He has repeated the same line over and over.

On welfare socialism, When a government invents reasons to go to war so 1 trillion dollars on military spending can be doled out… and billions funneled to companies such as Haliburton, with direct ties to the vice president and literally hundreds of political supporters who started companies AFTER the war, is there a term for this? Maybe socialism is not appropriate.

There are many more reasons to this other than taxes.



For some reason many feel that lower taxes equates to economic prosperity. The last eight years prove this to be false. If inflation is rampant (4$ gas, 5$ milk) and your retirement/investments are losing 20-30%, you cant get a mortgage or credit for reasonable purchases, and your job is laying people off by the thousands, BUT YOUR TAXES ARE LOW, are you better off? You tell me.
 
No one, yet. But next year when I complete my pain fellowship and go into business for myself, tax policy will have a much larger impact on my earnings than it does now. Still, I expect my standard of living to improve substantially, regardless of who wins this election. Honestly, I worry more about the long term future of the US. I want lower taxes as much as the next person who makes $400,000+ per year, but there is more to life than hoarding money in the bank and buying second homes. I'm still idealistic enough to hope we can build a society that does things like education, health care, environmental stewardship, economic growth, and foreign relations well. We just need less cynical leaders willing to make choices that may be painful and unpopular in the short term, but will benefit us well in the long term.

I'm unconvinced that trickle-down economics does anything more than add zeros to bank accounts of the rich.
 
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