- Joined
- Jul 16, 2005
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I won't even respond with an ad hominem attack to you as you did to me. I brought up a relevant point, as I see it, about the lack of diversity in occupational therapy programs: if you think that's "trolling" then you clearly have to resort to attacking the person because you can't come up with an argument to support your case. I find that sad.
I never once attacked you, or attacked anyone, I simply stated that there is a very big gender imbalance in occupational therapy and there doesn't seem to be much resolve to solve that.
As a white male I can tell you that I've yet to see the dividends of this "privilege" of which you all speak. It's certainly not paying off in my life. I've worked hard for everything I have, and I'll work as resolutely and as hard for whatever I do in my life. I don't want a free ticket for being a man: I'm simply pointing to the fact that OT is massively an imbalanced field. We would not tolerate this with race or if it was a reverse situation (5% women) without remedying it.
Inari87 hit it right on the nail and deserves a medal for what he just said, and just to coattail off of his enlightening post...... research shows that a white male is more likely to get paid more than a black male, white female, black female, etc. for the EXACT same job, what's even more interesting is that I myself have heard others actually experience this. Does this mean that the white male does not work hard? Absolutely not! Some of my closest buddies who work their TAILS OFF and whom I admire are white males. It is simply a matter that as a white male you may get a little bit more benefit out of hard work in certain situations than those of other races. There isn't even 20% of OTs nationwide that are not white. I volunteered at several OT/PT clinics with a total from all places combined of about 22 OTs and I ran into 2 therapists that were not white so apparently the racial imbalance is accepted to some extent. Just work hard and make yourself a great applicant and take what society gives you and make it grand.I won't even respond with an ad hominem attack to you as you did to me. I brought up a relevant point, as I see it, about the lack of diversity in occupational therapy programs: if you think that's "trolling" then you clearly have to resort to attacking the person because you can't come up with an argument to support your case. I find that sad.
I never once attacked you, or attacked anyone, I simply stated that there is a very big gender imbalance in occupational therapy and there doesn't seem to be much resolve to solve that.
As a white male I can tell you that I've yet to see the dividends of this "privilege" of which you all speak. It's certainly not paying off in my life. I've worked hard for everything I have, and I'll work as resolutely and as hard for whatever I do in my life. I don't want a free ticket for being a man: I'm simply pointing to the fact that OT is massively an imbalanced field. We would not tolerate this with race or if it was a reverse situation (5% women) without remedying it.
It wasn't my intention to wade into a political discussion, but I guess that is very hard to do once we have touched on two sensitive subjects: race and sex. I don't deny that historically there have been many injustices towards minorities (women also); I was only making the point that being a white male is not some "golden ticket" in life that some do portray it as being. I have a Texan accent and people make a lot of assumptions that you are ignorant or have certain views on a whole slew of issues just based on an accent; yeah I sure can feel that white privilege in our society.
There is no affirmative action approach for men in OT, just to be clear, but there is for race in all fields. I have a black male friend who was informed that they will add nearly a full GPA point to many of his medical school applications simply by virtue of his race (ignore the fact that his family is rich and he does not suffer the socio economic problems that inner city blacks do). I think that in some sectors there is reverse discrimination and that being a straight white male makes you an outsider. I sure do not feel as if things are easier for me; the US is a meritocracy: did you notice our president is black? Here in Oklahoma we have suffered our trials and tribulations with race, and I think we are much more sensible in our approach, and recognize the errors of our past, these days.
Back to OT: In other fields with a massive gender or racial imbalance departments take an activist approach making it a major goal to recruit women (as in engineering) or minority candidates. There is no such approach in OT. I don't think race or sex or any of these things should play a role in admissions; but I find it rather telling that when it comes to minority candidates and women we have a strong push for diversity, but when occupational therapy is 90%+ women you rarely hear a peep about this being a major problem.
Regarding the "research" showing that white men get paid more: I'm skeptical. I've seen a lot of research that shows that men make more than women for the same positions. They factor in women taking leave from their positions to have their children and or raise them! I've seen other figures that claim men receive more promotions: they do not account for the fact that women often choose to place their family lives (understandably so for many women) ahead of their career advancement. Men don't have that reality (of childbirth) so it's understandable that we remain and are promoted more often into leadership roles. I think it is also fair to say that women and men emphasize different aspects that are valuable in a work place: studies show that women intuit more and also seek agreement more with others in a workplace, men are more likely to seek to convince others of their position. The latter is more likely to be perceived as a leadership quality in our culture I think.
Is there racism and sexism in our society: yes. I also think there is reverse racism and sexism as well.
@inari87: Men are much more represented in nursing departments across this country, and that's a fact. A woman who applies to an engineering department in this country (or a black candidate for that matter) will be swooped up faster than you can say "interview". I think it's a good thing in some respects that these departments want diversity. I have a problem with the fact that it's seen as a pressing issue in those departments, but not in departments where women dominate. Diversity seems to be a one way street when it comes to OT.
I took a Psychology/sociology of women class that showed the research proving what you said in the last post of men getting paid more than women, what you said is true however as my professor carefully pointed out those studies were done with white males and not minority males which is a completely different ball game in certain instances. Be skeptical of the research all you want but as I said before I have also ran into this from personal accounts and in my eyes reality can trump research in certain cases because research can be flawed at times. I merely suggest research because it is the gold standard in our society when you are trying to argue a point and rightfully so because scholars try their best to limit errors and bring out the facts. The whole "our president is black" thing you mentioned is laughable beyond all reason. Congress (the entity that matters the most in the government in terms of making laws) is made up of a vast majority of white males with females and minorities not even remotely close to being somewhat represented. The rich rule the country and the vast majority of business owners, CEOs, high level supervisors, high level managers, high level officers, and other prestigious positions in the corporate world are white males so I'm sorry if I am not very convinced on the abundance and the inclusiveness of this "meritocracy" thing for everyone including women and minorities because 1 man who is half minority made it to the top and became president when I could name instance after instance when a minority or woman (especially a woman, ladies I feel bad for y'all) plays the whole meritocracy thing fair and square and gets blatantly cheated. You know the funny thing is the more we discuss this inequality in society the less I am bothered by OT being majority women cause hey let's face it they have had the short end of the stick for centuries. Would more male representation in OT be nice to see? Sure, but if it doesn't happen anytime soon, whatever, that's life and I most definitely will continue to live and do my best to make myself an asset to society in whatever way possible. You are a very intelligent guy osu789 and stand firm in what you believe and will state your point with vigor, if OT doesn't work out I seriously think you should consider going to law school, they could use someone with your enthusiasm and willingness to state their case in a professional manner.It wasn't my intention to wade into a political discussion, but I guess that is very hard to do once we have touched on two sensitive subjects: race and sex. I don't deny that historically there have been many injustices towards minorities (women also); I was only making the point that being a white male is not some "golden ticket" in life that some do portray it as being. I have a Texan accent and people make a lot of assumptions that you are ignorant or have certain views on a whole slew of issues just based on an accent; yeah I sure can feel that white privilege in our society.
There is no affirmative action approach for men in OT, just to be clear, but there is for race in all fields. I have a black male friend who was informed that they will add nearly a full GPA point to many of his medical school applications simply by virtue of his race (ignore the fact that his family is rich and he does not suffer the socio economic problems that inner city blacks do). I think that in some sectors there is reverse discrimination and that being a straight white male makes you an outsider. I sure do not feel as if things are easier for me; the US is a meritocracy: did you notice our president is black? Here in Oklahoma we have suffered our trials and tribulations with race, and I think we are much more sensible in our approach, and recognize the errors of our past, these days.
Back to OT: In other fields with a massive gender or racial imbalance departments take an activist approach making it a major goal to recruit women (as in engineering) or minority candidates. There is no such approach in OT. I don't think race or sex or any of these things should play a role in admissions; but I find it rather telling that when it comes to minority candidates and women we have a strong push for diversity, but when occupational therapy is 90%+ women you rarely hear a peep about this being a major problem.
Regarding the "research" showing that white men get paid more: I'm skeptical. I've seen a lot of research that shows that men make more than women for the same positions. They factor in women taking leave from their positions to have their children and or raise them! I've seen other figures that claim men receive more promotions: they do not account for the fact that women often choose to place their family lives (understandably so for many women) ahead of their career advancement. Men don't have that reality (of childbirth) so it's understandable that we remain and are promoted more often into leadership roles. I think it is also fair to say that women and men emphasize different aspects that are valuable in a work place: studies show that women intuit more and also seek agreement more with others in a workplace, men are more likely to seek to convince others of their position. The latter is more likely to be perceived as a leadership quality in our culture I think.
Is there racism and sexism in our society: yes. I also think there is reverse racism and sexism as well.
@inari87: Men are much more represented in nursing departments across this country, and that's a fact. A woman who applies to an engineering department in this country (or a black candidate for that matter) will be swooped up faster than you can say "interview". I think it's a good thing in some respects that these departments want diversity. I have a problem with the fact that it's seen as a pressing issue in those departments, but not in departments where women dominate. Diversity seems to be a one way street when it comes to OT.
I guess there is no sense in arguing. You just aren't getting it. You are essentially advocating for white males to benefit from affirmative action when getting into OT school, yet you describe affirmative action as an anachronism. A white male's experience getting into OT is a droplet in the ocean compared to the discrimination that women and minorities experienced (and sometimes still experience) for centuries. If you want to cry white male victim in the process, then you really should contact AOTA. I hope things work about better for you next cycle.There seems to be a lot of aggression here by people who are arguing for more tolerance in our society. I'm not going to resort to ad hominem attacks because it's wrong to do. I believe in being a straight shooter and speaking directly; I don't speak in codes, you can consider that a part of my Texas/Oklahoma upbringing.
I disagree with the person who said there is no such thing as reverse discrimination against whites and men; there is pressing desire (a good one) by hiring managers and schools to recruit minority and women candidates in many fields; the fact of the matter is that white men are at a disadvantage when this is the case and minorities and women are at an advantage. It's reverse discrimination because they aren't simply looking at the empirical data and achievements of the candidate but rather are weighting their race or sex, and I do find that wrong. What I find particularly wrong is that women and minority applicants have an advantage when applying to white male dominated fields, but men do not have one when applying to OT. Many fields would find men being excluded to such a large degree as they are in OT to be a pressing problem that must be remedied: not in OT.
@TexasOT2be : It's a texas thing, we call it as it is. I'm also a fair minded person. Take note at their intolerance and how some are saying that you can't possibly be a good OT unless you accept that white people are dominant in society and we all have more rights. Give me a break.
We're fast becoming a minority majority country and we have a black president, and we still have anachronisms like Affirmative action programs which discriminate against white applicants and all we keep hearing about is how racist society is and how special it is to be white.
@alg5443: Schools in Texas have extremely high GPA requirements fyi. You don't know me or the extensive volunteer and caring that I am engaged in for my society. I'm a veteran and I'd like to work for the VA to provide care for veterans (yes, regardless of their sex or race).
I will tell you that I applied to a school that is currently doing interviews. I inquired if I received an interview, I was told "we have not interviewed a single man yet, so no you haven't been invited yet." I know many of you will question my credentials or my LORs or my hours; I am not a perfect candidate -- no one is. I have a 3.75 GPA and very good references, and about 80 observation hours to date. One in acute care and another in pediatrics (I can strengthen my profile greatly by getting in more observation sites and hours I think). I also only have B's in Anatomy and Physiology I and II. That can be improved by re-taking it. I don't want to, but I can.
To address the men in OT issue: I was not even called for an interview at one school. Not even an interview. No men were. Not ONE. I have trouble believing that my statistics do not qualify me for an interview when there are no male applicants at all being interviewed. How many other men are in my situation? Their entering class will be 100% female and it is not due to a lack of qualified men; this would not be permitted to happen with race: I guarantee you that a qualified black applicant will get an interview. Not so with men. OT has to work on addressing this *massive* gender imbalance that I guess departments just don't care much about.
I apologize if this thread became a much more political and contentious discussion than it originally began as; it was not my intention. I'm concerned with helping others or I wouldn't choose OT, I'd go and get my degree in finance if I wanted that. We're all here, and in it, for the same reason I hope: to impact others in a positive way. It's important to understand that we all carry a different perspective on life: I am from a small town in Texas and I grew up in a very conservative homogenous culture. I joined the army and that is what actually made a strong impression on me exposing me to different people from many walks of life: I had never met blacks, or a gay person until I joined the army. I certainly didn't have the best impression of either growing up. Being open minded doesn't mean subscribing to a PC/Leftist mentality, it means you meet people where they are and don't judge. I don't.