Fresh out of residency and. . .

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someonesomething

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Hi, everyone!

I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July and I"m currently on the hunt for a job after not matching for PGY-2.

To give an idea of how the market is for me, I've applied to >40 places/jobs and have heard from 4 (1 phone interview and 4 rejections). I am being picky and applying for clinical jobs only, but this gives an idea of how much PGY-2 is being weighed. My current site is looking for staffing positions and they're getting applicants with PGY-1 and PGY-2 experience. I'll probably have to stop being picky by the end of my residency when I continue to have no job offers or interview offers, but it's still a bit daunting to be entering the market when it's like this.

If anyone has advice, please share! Feel free to share your experiences as well!

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Why is your current site not an option, especially if they are looking for people?
 
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Hi, everyone!

I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July and I"m currently on the hunt for a job after not matching for PGY-2.

To give an idea of how the market is for me, I've applied to >40 places/jobs and have heard from 4 (1 phone interview and 4 rejections). I am being picky and applying for clinical jobs only, but this gives an idea of how much PGY-2 is being weighed. My current site is looking for staffing positions and they're getting applicants with PGY-1 and PGY-2 experience. I'll probably have to stop being picky by the end of my residency when I continue to have no job offers or interview offers, but it's still a bit daunting to be entering the market when it's like this.

If anyone has advice, please share! Feel free to share your experiences as well!

The advice is to take any job you get. IDK about most of the people here, but most of the clinical pharmacists I know are on the younger side, somewhere around 40. These jobs will be saturated soon too.
 
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All the clinical pharmacists in my system are in their 30s.
 
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Why is your current site not an option, especially if they are looking for people?
At the health system I worked at in a large, metro area they took 3-4x more residents than they can hire on each year, so when it came to jobs after residency (including staffing positions), how it worked was that PGY-2’s were given dibs on those jobs while PGY-1’s were encouraged to either apply for PGY-2’s or look for jobs elsewhere. PGY-1’s who were hired on after residency were usually either 1. Someone who had inside connections to the hospital since their days as a pharmacy student, or 2. A hot chick.
 
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Hi, everyone!

I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July and I"m currently on the hunt for a job after not matching for PGY-2.

To give an idea of how the market is for me, I've applied to >40 places/jobs and have heard from 4 (1 phone interview and 4 rejections). I am being picky and applying for clinical jobs only, but this gives an idea of how much PGY-2 is being weighed. My current site is looking for staffing positions and they're getting applicants with PGY-1 and PGY-2 experience. I'll probably have to stop being picky by the end of my residency when I continue to have no job offers or interview offers, but it's still a bit daunting to be entering the market when it's like this.

If anyone has advice, please share! Feel free to share your experiences as well!

Buy a good pair of running shoes as soon as possible and start filling scripts! Join the club baby! Turns out none of us are above it.
 
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Hi, everyone!

I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July and I"m currently on the hunt for a job after not matching for PGY-2.

To give an idea of how the market is for me, I've applied to >40 places/jobs and have heard from 4 (1 phone interview and 4 rejections). I am being picky and applying for clinical jobs only, but this gives an idea of how much PGY-2 is being weighed. My current site is looking for staffing positions and they're getting applicants with PGY-1 and PGY-2 experience. I'll probably have to stop being picky by the end of my residency when I continue to have no job offers or interview offers, but it's still a bit daunting to be entering the market when it's like this.

If anyone has advice, please share! Feel free to share your experiences as well!
"I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July "

Congrats. You are now overqualified for 70% of the jobs in pharmacy.
 
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Buy a good pair of running shoes as soon as possible and start filling scripts! Join the club baby! Turns out none of us are above it.
running shoes won't cut it at this point. Just go straight to knee pads.
 
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Retail DMs have zero incentive to hire PGY-1 grads especially those who did something inpatient. For example in my market in California (Walmart) the last two staff pharmacists hired were some rando new grads part-time only and unlike in the past they aren't getting flexed up for 80/pay period. For pharmacy managers only internal retreads or people who didn't know better (including me)

Credential inflation and too many grads FTW
 
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it is rough out there, I know a PGY-2 in oncology that took an operations supervisor job at their PGY-2 site - obviously they took the first job they were offered. That being said, we have tons of applicants, but not many that truly were qualified. THis time of year apps are saturated, when we were looking last fall, it was painful to find anyone qualified.

You have to expand your search area to include anywhere if you haven't already. Take any job that you get, bust your butt, and make a name for yourself, and the right job will then open up
 
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it is rough out there, I know a PGY-2 in oncology that took an operations supervisor job at their PGY-2 site - obviously they took the first job they were offered. That being said, we have tons of applicants, but not many that truly were qualified. THis time of year apps are saturated, when we were looking last fall, it was painful to find anyone qualified.

You have to expand your search area to include anywhere if you haven't already. Take any job that you get, bust your butt, and make a name for yourself, and the right job will then open up
love the positive vibes. unfortuanetly given that there are 15,000 new grads a year and only 3,000 new jobs the math just won't add up for a lot of people man. it's just cold math like the short story with the girl that hides in the space shuttle and then there are two ppl in it but only enough gas for one so the guy has to rope himself? it's kinda like that. Just cold math. So it don't matter how hard one tries there will not be high paying FTE for everyone. A very sad situation for many.
 
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That being said, we have tons of applicants, but not many that truly were qualified. THis time of year apps are saturated, when we were looking last fall, it was painful to find anyone qualified.

Very true @Dred Pirate . I was so glad to fully hit the job market in December 2015. If I was a May 2015 graduate I would have been competing with 13,994 other new Pharm.D. graduates.
 
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One friend who finished both years of residency couldnt find anything in her specialty so now works at outpatient pharmacy as a staff. Another one finished pgy1 and works at cvs.

Whats interesting and messed up is that two friends are working at hospital as clinical pharmacist straight out of school. I just got an offer as a prn at a hospital. Haha so... at this point i feel like residency truly is for educational purposes lol
 
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Hi, everyone!

I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July and I"m currently on the hunt for a job after not matching for PGY-2.

To give an idea of how the market is for me, I've applied to >40 places/jobs and have heard from 4 (1 phone interview and 4 rejections). I am being picky and applying for clinical jobs only, but this gives an idea of how much PGY-2 is being weighed. My current site is looking for staffing positions and they're getting applicants with PGY-1 and PGY-2 experience. I'll probably have to stop being picky by the end of my residency when I continue to have no job offers or interview offers, but it's still a bit daunting to be entering the market when it's like this.

If anyone has advice, please share! Feel free to share your experiences as well!

Didn't we explain 4 years ago this would occur? you probably told me to go fly a kite, or someone else anyway. It's all fun and games until you hit the real world baby. You figure it out. I'm moving on to medicinal dispensaries by years end. You can have whats left of my job and slowly lose your mind and spirit. This is no longer a "profession", it's a VERY unstable job with no future. Period.
 
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Didn't we explain 4 years ago this would occur? you probably told me to go fly a kite, or someone else anyway. It's all fun and games until you hit the real world baby. You figure it out. I'm moving on to medicinal dispensaries by years end. You can have whats left of my job and slowly lose your mind and spirit. This is no longer a "profession", it's a VERY unstable job with no future. Period.

Post that **** on Reddit and watch all the memey NPCs deride you for being "toxic." LOLLLLL
 
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I am genuinely curious. Unless you want to go into very very specialized area like oncology, why does one “need” residency?

One director of pharmacy told me that residents are good for cheap labor. Also, it counts as hospital experience so they wont have to train you as much. So basically it comes down to money.

Yet, very interesting to hear residents gloat about how prestigious the opportunity is and theyre so much better than everyone else. Some even comparing themselves to doctors. Just my personal experience, not trying to trash the entire residency experience.
 
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I am genuinely curious. Unless you want to go into very very specialized area like oncology, why does one “need” residency?

One director of pharmacy told me that residents are good for cheap labor. Also, it counts as hospital experience so they wont have to train you as much. So basically it comes down to money.

Yet, very interesting to hear residents gloat about how prestigious the opportunity is and theyre so much better than everyone else. Some even comparing themselves to doctors. Just my personal experience, not trying to trash the entire residency experience.
NO ONE NEEDS RESIDENCY. IT'S A ACADEMIC CONSTRUCTION TO FILL MORE COLLEGE SEATS AND GET CHEAP LABOR AT HOSPTIALS. IT'S TARGETED AT STUDENTS WHO WERE NOT INTELLIGENT ENOUGH FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL OR TOO LAZY FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL. THERE IS NOTHING 'CLINICAL' ABOUT TAKING PILLS FROM A BIG BOTTLE AND MOVING THEM TO A SMALLER BOTTLE OR DOING SOME SIMPLE VANCO DOSING MATH. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST FOLKS
 
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I am genuinely curious. Unless you want to go into very very specialized area like oncology, why does one “need” residency?

One director of pharmacy told me that residents are good for cheap labor. Also, it counts as hospital experience so they wont have to train you as much. So basically it comes down to money.

Yet, very interesting to hear residents gloat about how prestigious the opportunity is and theyre so much better than everyone else. Some even comparing themselves to doctors. Just my personal experience, not trying to trash the entire residency experience.
I will actually make a plug for residency here. Yes, it is cheap labor but you get to develop your leadership skills in ways that a new grad hire will not be able to do because it is outside the confines of their job description. If I use a typical “clinical” hospital residency as an example, precepting, giving presentations, getting involved in special/administrative projects, recruiting/interviewing candidates and ultimately having access to the entire health system’s staff for whatever it is you want to learn about/gaining that broader institutional knowledge is why residency is valuable. From a strictly technical standpoint, of course a resident will not learn/do as much as a staff pharmacist but again you are put in a position to grow other skills and above all grow your network without having to try really hard.

I suppose a similar analogy is if you compared a pharmacy intern (resident) to a pharmacy technician (staff pharmacist) in the retail setting: 95% of what the tech and intern does are the same things (count by 5’s process insurance, take phone calls, inventory management etc) and you can make a good argument that the tech knows more about how to “keep the business running” than the intern since they work 40 hrs a week while the intern might only work 10 hrs a week. But there’s no denying that the intern provides 1. a different type of value and 2. will outpace the contributions of the tech once they get up to speed. Very difficult to explain this to an audience if they haven’t done residencies themselves, but you get the point.

All that being said, I do think that with more residencies (and new diploma mill schools) popping up, the overall quality of residencies are declining and the line between what work a resident does vs what work an APPE student does is becoming more and more blurred. This is because while hospitals are increasing the number of residency spots each year, the number of staff/clinical pharmacists they are hiring on is not expanding, therefore preceptors who used to precept students or residents now have to pull double duty. So while a resident should theoretically command 100% of the time and attention of their preceptor while on rotation, that is in reality probably 50% and dropping due to additional students and residents that are jockeying for attention.
 
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If I use a typical “clinical” hospital residency as an example, precepting, giving presentations, getting involved in special/administrative projects, recruiting/interviewing candidates and ultimately having access to the entire health system’s staff for whatever it is you want to learn about/gaining that broader institutional knowledge is why residency is valuable. From a strictly technical standpoint, of course a resident will not learn/do as much as a staff pharmacist but again you are put in a position to grow other skills and above all grow your network without having to try really hard.

I did every single one of those things as a new grad employee (quite honestly possibly more, other than a presentation at a convention). Granted, it was a very small hospital, but the amount of exposure you get, residency or no residency, is purely based on the hospital. Of course, since I was an employee rather than a resident, I didn't have a preceptor as a safety net if I were to make errors.

With the residency trained pharmacists that I've worked with, I've generally found that they're a lot more hesitant when they come across situations they haven't encountered before. Possible a side effect of having that safety net.
 
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I am genuinely curious. Unless you want to go into very very specialized area like oncology, why does one “need” residency?

One director of pharmacy told me that residents are good for cheap labor. Also, it counts as hospital experience so they wont have to train you as much. So basically it comes down to money.

Yet, very interesting to hear residents gloat about how prestigious the opportunity is and theyre so much better than everyone else. Some even comparing themselves to doctors. Just my personal experience, not trying to trash the entire residency experience.
Yeah, you pretty much nailed it. But the ultimate argument for hiring residency trained pharmacists is simply "Give me one reason NOT to hire someone who's pre-trained". Over a new grad, the choice is clear. This is where the lines are blurred in my mind; residency trained RPh w/ 5 years inpatient experience vs. RPh w/5 years inpatient experience. I think as time goes on, how you spent your first year out of school is far less relevant than what you've done lately.
 
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NO ONE NEEDS RESIDENCY. IT'S A ACADEMIC CONSTRUCTION TO FILL MORE COLLEGE SEATS AND GET CHEAP LABOR AT HOSPTIALS. IT'S TARGETED AT STUDENTS WHO WERE NOT INTELLIGENT ENOUGH FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL OR TOO LAZY FOR MEDICAL SCHOOL. THERE IS NOTHING 'CLINICAL' ABOUT TAKING PILLS FROM A BIG BOTTLE AND MOVING THEM TO A SMALLER BOTTLE OR DOING SOME SIMPLE VANCO DOSING MATH. YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST FOLKS

Yeah i did ALL hospital rotations to be sure i was not missing something ya know? before i continued into retail. I found out It's really nothing special.....like retail. Presentations, rounds, in-services, journal clubs.......jesus journal clubs.....LMAO anyone remember those? what a waste of 8 good years, but when i started in 2003 things were peachy, so dont blame me!
 
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With the residency trained pharmacists that I've worked with, I've generally found that they're a lot more hesitant when they come across situations they haven't encountered before. Possible a side effect of having that safety net.
I'll never forget the resident who told me he wanted to continue into a PGY2 just because he didn't feel confident enough to work solo yet. I think he had made a couple mistakes when staffing the pharmacy, maybe didn't have his real-time clinical problem solving skills honed yet. I tried to tell him that those skills develop over time, but I think he was expecting to find them in a journal.

I think as time goes on, how you spent your first year out of school is far less relevant than what you've done lately.
While I agree with this, I have also worked with pharmacy management that disagree. Glassy-eyed, Koolaid drinking management, yes, but their beliefs were enough to change hiring practice and the general culture of the department.

I also fondly recall one of our pharmacy specialists, someone with a PGY1 who had confessed that the job was not as they expected and was very disappointed in the reality of "clinical" pharmacy, telling me that I could never be as good or considered equal to a residency trained pharmacist. There was just a certain je ne sais quoi imparted by a PGY1 that you could never replicate with independent study or actual pharmacy practice. This was a really lovely lesson to hear from the person training you to cover their specialty position, especially when that belief is held by management. We will train you to work for this service, we will let you work a plurality of your scheduled shifts in this position for years, and when we have an opening.. we will hire a fresh PGY1 and expect you to train them. Sorry, you just aren't qualified enough to hold the title.

Sorry for the mini-rant. Reminiscing about my first job just makes me mad these days. I never realized how toxic the culture was until I moved on to greener pastures.
 
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I'll never forget the resident who told me he wanted to continue into a PGY2 just because he didn't feel confident enough to work solo yet. I think he had made a couple mistakes when staffing the pharmacy, maybe didn't have his real-time clinical problem solving skills honed yet. I tried to tell him that those skills develop over time, but I think he was expecting to find them in a journal.


While I agree with this, I have also worked with pharmacy management that disagree. Glassy-eyed, Koolaid drinking management, yes, but their beliefs were enough to change hiring practice and the general culture of the department.

I also fondly recall one of our pharmacy specialists, someone with a PGY1 who had confessed that the job was not as they expected and was very disappointed in the reality of "clinical" pharmacy, telling me that I could never be as good or considered equal to a residency trained pharmacist. There was just a certain je ne sais quoi imparted by a PGY1 that you could never replicate with independent study or actual pharmacy practice. This was a really lovely lesson to hear from the person training you to cover their specialty position, especially when that belief is held by management. We will train you to work for this service, we will let you work a plurality of your scheduled shifts in this position for years, and when we have an opening.. we will hire a fresh PGY1 and expect you to train them. Sorry, you just aren't qualified enough to hold the title.

Sorry for the mini-rant. Reminiscing about my first job just makes me mad these days. I never realized how toxic the culture was until I moved on to greener pastures.

Youre not capable enough unless of course its a weekend, evening or holiday or I want to use PTO
 
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While I agree with this, I have also worked with pharmacy management that disagree. Glassy-eyed, Koolaid drinking management, yes, but their beliefs were enough to change hiring practice and the general culture of the department.

I also fondly recall one of our pharmacy specialists, someone with a PGY1 who had confessed that the job was not as they expected and was very disappointed in the reality of "clinical" pharmacy, telling me that I could never be as good or considered equal to a residency trained pharmacist. There was just a certain je ne sais quoi imparted by a PGY1 that you could never replicate with independent study or actual pharmacy practice. This was a really lovely lesson to hear from the person training you to cover their specialty position, especially when that belief is held by management. We will train you to work for this service, we will let you work a plurality of your scheduled shifts in this position for years, and when we have an opening.. we will hire a fresh PGY1 and expect you to train them. Sorry, you just aren't qualified enough to hold the title.

Sorry for the mini-rant. Reminiscing about my first job just makes me mad these days. I never realized how toxic the culture was until I moved on to greener pastures.

Exactly. It sounds like you worked in my health system.

In all seriousness, I wish pharmacy would've gone the route of masters degrees to distinguish yourself instead of residency. I for one would be much more willing to obtain additional training if it didn't mean quitting my job, starting a new job for less than half the pay and then having no guarantee of a job once I'm done. I've got plenty of engineering friends who pursued masters degrees through night school or online school to advance their career, often times paid for by their employer. It seems like pharmacy got continuing education completely backwards because they tried to copy the medical model.
 
Exactly. It sounds like you worked in my health system.

In all seriousness, I wish pharmacy would've gone the route of masters degrees to distinguish yourself instead of residency. I for one would be much more willing to obtain additional training if it didn't mean quitting my job, starting a new job for less than half the pay and then having no guarantee of a job once I'm done. I've got plenty of engineering friends who pursued masters degrees through night school or online school to advance their career, often times paid for by their employer. It seems like pharmacy got continuing education completely backwards because they tried to copy the medical model.

Degrees are not the answer anymore. Everyone is shutting their doors, cutting hours, salaries....etc. all retail and corporate sectors are affected with this virus. thats where most people have traditionally always worked ya know? So your own business is the only chance these days. It's a gamble but if done right, you dont ever have to deal with this nonsense again. I feel like the field is so bad now i am willing to leave and try almost anything. I want nothing to do with this cash cow anymore.
 
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Hi, everyone!

I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July and I"m currently on the hunt for a job after not matching for PGY-2.

To give an idea of how the market is for me, I've applied to >40 places/jobs and have heard from 4 (1 phone interview and 4 rejections). I am being picky and applying for clinical jobs only, but this gives an idea of how much PGY-2 is being weighed. My current site is looking for staffing positions and they're getting applicants with PGY-1 and PGY-2 experience. I'll probably have to stop being picky by the end of my residency when I continue to have no job offers or interview offers, but it's still a bit daunting to be entering the market when it's like this.

If anyone has advice, please share! Feel free to share your experiences as well!

Phone interviews, what a joke. I had some young girl call me from CVS when i was looking back in FL like 2016. She got all mixed up as to WHERE the position was located even. It was for naples, FL. she thought ft myers, then she rambled a mile a minute like she was on crank, and just wanted to get it over with. like it was a hassle in her day ya know? I did well as always, and she said she would call. I never expected a call. I then realized something was radically wrong here and moved to Colorado. lol. I'll manage this WM until i cant anymore (which is very close) , then who knows?
 
I will actually make a plug for residency here. Yes, it is cheap labor but you get to develop your leadership skills in ways that a new grad hire will not be able to do because it is outside the confines of their job description. If I use a typical “clinical” hospital residency as an example, precepting, giving presentations, getting involved in special/administrative projects, recruiting/interviewing candidates and ultimately having access to the entire health system’s staff for whatever it is you want to learn about/gaining that broader institutional knowledge is why residency is valuable. From a strictly technical standpoint, of course a resident will not learn/do as much as a staff pharmacist but again you are put in a position to grow other skills and above all grow your network without having to try really hard.

I suppose a similar analogy is if you compared a pharmacy intern (resident) to a pharmacy technician (staff pharmacist) in the retail setting: 95% of what the tech and intern does are the same things (count by 5’s process insurance, take phone calls, inventory management etc) and you can make a good argument that the tech knows more about how to “keep the business running” than the intern since they work 40 hrs a week while the intern might only work 10 hrs a week. But there’s no denying that the intern provides 1. a different type of value and 2. will outpace the contributions of the tech once they get up to speed. Very difficult to explain this to an audience if they haven’t done residencies themselves, but you get the point.

All that being said, I do think that with more residencies (and new diploma mill schools) popping up, the overall quality of residencies are declining and the line between what work a resident does vs what work an APPE student does is becoming more and more blurred. This is because while hospitals are increasing the number of residency spots each year, the number of staff/clinical pharmacists they are hiring on is not expanding, therefore preceptors who used to precept students or residents now have to pull double duty. So while a resident should theoretically command 100% of the time and attention of their preceptor while on rotation, that is in reality probably 50% and dropping due to additional students and residents that are jockeying for attention.

How is any of this different than working a hospital position without a residency, besides the 1/3 in pay?

I work in a LTC and they chose me over people who did residencies, so that shows you how much they care about those.
 
I will actually make a plug for residency here. Yes, it is cheap labor but you get to develop your leadership skills in ways that a new grad hire will not be able to do because it is outside the confines of their job description. If I use a typical “clinical” hospital residency as an example, precepting, giving presentations, getting involved in special/administrative projects, recruiting/interviewing candidates and ultimately having access to the entire health system’s staff for whatever it is you want to learn about/gaining that broader institutional knowledge is why residency is valuable. From a strictly technical standpoint, of course a resident will not learn/do as much as a staff pharmacist but again you are put in a position to grow other skills and above all grow your network without having to try really hard.

I suppose a similar analogy is if you compared a pharmacy intern (resident) to a pharmacy technician (staff pharmacist) in the retail setting: 95% of what the tech and intern does are the same things (count by 5’s process insurance, take phone calls, inventory management etc) and you can make a good argument that the tech knows more about how to “keep the business running” than the intern since they work 40 hrs a week while the intern might only work 10 hrs a week. But there’s no denying that the intern provides 1. a different type of value and 2. will outpace the contributions of the tech once they get up to speed. Very difficult to explain this to an audience if they haven’t done residencies themselves, but you get the point.

All that being said, I do think that with more residencies (and new diploma mill schools) popping up, the overall quality of residencies are declining and the line between what work a resident does vs what work an APPE student does is becoming more and more blurred. This is because while hospitals are increasing the number of residency spots each year, the number of staff/clinical pharmacists they are hiring on is not expanding, therefore preceptors who used to precept students or residents now have to pull double duty. So while a resident should theoretically command 100% of the time and attention of their preceptor while on rotation, that is in reality probably 50% and dropping due to additional students and residents that are jockeying for attention.

So the point is they are more prepared to handle the rigors of being a manager, DM, or area manager maybe? I would agree, but those jobs are aweful and lots of dm's are stepping down due to burnout. So in the end, whats the point, prepared for what? crash and burn.
 
How is any of this different than working a hospital position without a residency, besides the 1/3 in pay?

I work in a LTC and they chose me over people who did residencies, so that shows you how much they care about those.
If they did residencies in LTCs then I’m sure they would have an upper hand. However, I’m not sure if LTC residencies exist and due to the differences in practice environments the skill sets gained from doing a hospital residency are less transferrable to LTC than people think.

More broadly, I do think that many people who have done hospital residencies think they’re at the top of the hill and are entitled to getting any job they want... including getting jobs in pharma when they get bored of their hospital jobs. But nothing can be further from the truth - it’s all about whether your skills are transferrable or not. While you can likely pick up 3 skills by doing residency vs 1 by staffing, those 3 skills may not overlap with the 2 skills needed in a different practice environment, so at the end of the day you are in the same boat with someone who doesn’t have that residency experience.
 
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If they did residencies in LTCs then I’m sure they would have an upper hand. However, I’m not sure if LTC residencies exist and due to the differences in practice environments the skill sets gained from doing a hospital residency are less transferrable to LTC than people think.

More broadly, I do think that many people who have done hospital residencies think they’re at the top of the hill and are entitled to getting any job they want... including getting jobs in pharma when they get bored of their hospital jobs. But nothing can be further from the truth - it’s all about whether your skills are transferrable or not. While you can likely pick up 3 skills by doing residency vs 1 by staffing, those 3 skills may not overlap with the 2 skills needed in a different practice environment, so at the end of the day you are in the same boat with someone who doesn’t have that residency experience.

So we basically agree then that residency provides no advantage vs a clinical staff pharmacist without residency.
 
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So we basically agree then that residency provides no advantage vs a clinical staff pharmacist without residency.
Only if you’re both applying for a job in a different setting. If this was a hospital job then it’s a different story.
 
So we basically agree then that residency provides no advantage vs a clinical staff pharmacist without residency.

I don't think residency provides much benefit or advantage for a LTC position.
 
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I am genuinely curious. Unless you want to go into very very specialized area like oncology, why does one “need” residency?

One director of pharmacy told me that residents are good for cheap labor. Also, it counts as hospital experience so they wont have to train you as much. So basically it comes down to money.

Yet, very interesting to hear residents gloat about how prestigious the opportunity is and theyre so much better than everyone else. Some even comparing themselves to doctors. Just my personal experience, not trying to trash the entire residency experience.
That’s crazy. Pharmacy residency does not truly differentiate you unless you are doing oncology or ID. A new grad Pharm.D can provide recommendations legally to a physician.
 
I'll never forget the resident who told me he wanted to continue into a PGY2 just because he didn't feel confident enough to work solo yet. I think he had made a couple mistakes when staffing the pharmacy, maybe didn't have his real-time clinical problem solving skills honed yet. I tried to tell him that those skills develop over time, but I think he was expecting to find them in a journal.


While I agree with this, I have also worked with pharmacy management that disagree. Glassy-eyed, Koolaid drinking management, yes, but their beliefs were enough to change hiring practice and the general culture of the department.

I also fondly recall one of our pharmacy specialists, someone with a PGY1 who had confessed that the job was not as they expected and was very disappointed in the reality of "clinical" pharmacy, telling me that I could never be as good or considered equal to a residency trained pharmacist. There was just a certain je ne sais quoi imparted by a PGY1 that you could never replicate with independent study or actual pharmacy practice. This was a really lovely lesson to hear from the person training you to cover their specialty position, especially when that belief is held by management. We will train you to work for this service, we will let you work a plurality of your scheduled shifts in this position for years, and when we have an opening.. we will hire a fresh PGY1 and expect you to train them. Sorry, you just aren't qualified enough to hold the title.

Sorry for the mini-rant. Reminiscing about my first job just makes me mad these days. I never realized how toxic the culture was until I moved on to greener pastures.
Yeah, my rotation site was like that when I was a P4. And not to mention nonstop venting towards physicians, especially surgeons.
 
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One friend who finished both years of residency couldnt find anything in her specialty so now works at outpatient pharmacy as a staff. Another one finished pgy1 and works at cvs.

Whats interesting and messed up is that two friends are working at hospital as clinical pharmacist straight out of school. I just got an offer as a prn at a hospital. Haha so... at this point i feel like residency truly is for educational purposes lol
What speciality did she do? Let me guess critical care. There seems to be too many that do critical care
 
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I will actually make a plug for residency here. Yes, it is cheap labor but you get to develop your leadership skills in ways that a new grad hire will not be able to do because it is outside the confines of their job description. If I use a typical “clinical” hospital residency as an example, precepting, giving presentations, getting involved in special/administrative projects, recruiting/interviewing candidates and ultimately having access to the entire health system’s staff for whatever it is you want to learn about/gaining that broader institutional knowledge is why residency is valuable. From a strictly technical standpoint, of course a resident will not learn/do as much as a staff pharmacist but again you are put in a position to grow other skills and above all grow your network without having to try really hard.

I suppose a similar analogy is if you compared a pharmacy intern (resident) to a pharmacy technician (staff pharmacist) in the retail setting: 95% of what the tech and intern does are the same things (count by 5’s process insurance, take phone calls, inventory management etc) and you can make a good argument that the tech knows more about how to “keep the business running” than the intern since they work 40 hrs a week while the intern might only work 10 hrs a week. But there’s no denying that the intern provides 1. a different type of value and 2. will outpace the contributions of the tech once they get up to speed. Very difficult to explain this to an audience if they haven’t done residencies themselves, but you get the point.

All that being said, I do think that with more residencies (and new diploma mill schools) popping up, the overall quality of residencies are declining and the line between what work a resident does vs what work an APPE student does is becoming more and more blurred. This is because while hospitals are increasing the number of residency spots each year, the number of staff/clinical pharmacists they are hiring on is not expanding, therefore preceptors who used to precept students or residents now have to pull double duty. So while a resident should theoretically command 100% of the time and attention of their preceptor while on rotation, that is in reality probably 50% and dropping due to additional students and residents that are jockeying for attention.
That’s the crux of the problem. The pharmacy resident should be taught how operate the system for a week and then made to run the clinical operation on their own. The preceptor should not be behind their back. In medical residency, that’s how that works. Medical residents are not precepted by the attending physician even from day 1 of their first year. While third year med students actually get precepted by the second year or third year resident or attending
 
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it is rough out there, I know a PGY-2 in oncology that took an operations supervisor job at their PGY-2 site - obviously they took the first job they were offered. That being said, we have tons of applicants, but not many that truly were qualified. THis time of year apps are saturated, when we were looking last fall, it was painful to find anyone qualified.

You have to expand your search area to include anywhere if you haven't already. Take any job that you get, bust your butt, and make a name for yourself, and the right job will then open up
A PGY-2 resident with oncology had to do operations??? That’s crazy 120 hours a week of hard work and no legit job security. Pharmacy needs to change but it won’t because there is too much money in it for schools and the residency programs
 
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That’s the crux of the problem. The pharmacy resident should be taught how operate the system for a week and then made to run the clinical operation on their own. The preceptor should not be behind their back. In medical residency, that’s how that works. Medical residents are not precepted by the attending physician even from day 1 of their first year. While third year med students actually get precepted by the second year or third year resident or attending

And let's look at it from the perspective of those folks who go straight to the actual pharmacist job.
They get no supervision and no one checking their work (though they can get some guidance depending on pharmacist overlap).
Hell, I might be in retail but I was on my own calling all the shots from day 1.
 
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And let's look at it from the perspective of those folks who go straight to the actual pharmacist job.
They get no supervision and no one checking their work (though they can get some guidance depending on pharmacist overlap).
Hell, I might be in retail but I was on my own calling all the shots from day 1.

The idea was that rotations were supposed to help you jump in on day 1. Most rotations don’t do that though.... And it becomes on the job training.
 
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A PGY-2 resident with oncology had to do operations??? That’s crazy 120 hours a week of hard work and no legit job security. Pharmacy needs to change but it won’t because there is too much money in it for schools and the residency programs
120 hours week is a stretch - that = 17 hours a day for 7 days a week - nobody is doing that - don't fool yourself but ya - agree with the job market statement
 
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I think some of the posts concerning residency have been somewhat negatively biased or oversimplified, especially those coming from individuals who practice in a different setting than hospital. I just wanted to share some quick thoughts specific to PGY-1 hospital residency.

I think residency is just a way to jam more experience into a shorter time period. Of course it's not strictly necessary because when you are licensed you are able to independently improve or worsen patient care based on your clinical knowledge and abilities. However it is a good way to tilt the odds in your favor that you will be a benefit to the care team by having more initial support as a pharmacist -- by the advice of preceptors, working in a large teaching hospital with complex patients/a culture of learning, and more feedback from staff regarding polishing your practice from both clinical and "soft skills" perspectives. Having periods of time where a preceptor is double checking some of your work helps people realize when they "don't know what they don't know". However depending on the residency there are many periods of handling tasks independently. I'm sure this varies based on how the residency is set up. In my personal experience I staffed ER, ICU, NICU, psych, surgery, cardiology, and GM with no preceptor (barring occasionally calling someone for help which most employees do in unfamiliar circumstances if they can).

It also helped me with improving efficiency so at my current job I can independently and simultaneously handle clinical, dispensing, and precepting tasks for many more patients and learners than I would have been able to as a new grad (safely). Sometimes I am the only pharmacist managing these tasks for ~40 patients. If someone's individual goal is to work at a small hospital that is not very busy, residency may be less necessary as there would be time to look up many things. Being able to borrow a preceptor's experience, and initially have lower patient loads on the start of a residency rotation allows one to learn more in a short period and hopefully be able to provide more benefit to the care team.

I don't think hospital residency would be very beneficial for most practice settings besides hospital. I also don't think most residency trained pharmacists feel superior to those who did not do a residency, but of course I can't speak for everyone. I do feel after finishing a residency I was proud of the hard work I put in which maybe could come across in a bad light depending on the context? You can probably relate to feeling this way when graduating pharmacy school. I definitely respect non-residency trained colleagues and still come to them with clinical questions. I would consider myself better prepared for a staffing job at the end of PGY-1 residency than someone who only had one year of experience in a hospital. However, personal motivation to learn and stay up with studies/guidelines matters more and more then farther you get away from residency training when comparing to a similar candidate who did not do a residency.

Of course the reduction in pay for a year is a negative. This must be weighed in importance with the benefits of a residency. For me the added experience and improved competitiveness in the job market was absolutely worth it. I would not have been considered for my current job without a residency. For others it may not be worth it. I can't speak toward the value of other types of residencies like community. I worked retail for several years as a tech/intern and I think community residency would have lower value from a clinical standpoint but that is largely speculation.

If you made it this far, thanks for reading! :)

edit: to reply more specifically to OP I would consider broadening the geographical location of your search if you can, as well as potentially getting licensed in the state ahead of time if you are looking to move. Also having more people read your application materials and thinking critically about who your references are (and if they are the strongest choices) is a good place to start as well. Picking references who have a large network in the area you are applying is helpful!
 
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Hi, everyone!

I'll be finishing my PGY-1 in July and I"m currently on the hunt for a job after not matching for PGY-2.

To give an idea of how the market is for me, I've applied to >40 places/jobs and have heard from 4 (1 phone interview and 4 rejections). I am being picky and applying for clinical jobs only, but this gives an idea of how much PGY-2 is being weighed. My current site is looking for staffing positions and they're getting applicants with PGY-1 and PGY-2 experience. I'll probably have to stop being picky by the end of my residency when I continue to have no job offers or interview offers, but it's still a bit daunting to be entering the market when it's like this.

If anyone has advice, please share! Feel free to share your experiences as well!

Year after year we churn out many students who want to go "clinical" right? they want to stay away from retail and i get that. That said, isn't this clinical pharmacy field going to end up saturated to the brink? i mean, how many CLINICAL pharmacists can this country have, considering clinical is a much smaller subsection of the industry than say, retail..?
 
Clinical pharmacy I would argue is actually far more saturated than retail. How many applicants does each clinical pharmacist job posting get? 1000?

You're getting all sorts of applicants including new grads without residencies, new grads with residencies, those with years of clinical experience, and those just trying to escape retail.
 
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