Dr Nurse - I see both sides

[GaseousClay]

Most people understand the NP stands for nurse. The person in the article had NP very prominently displayed. I don't buy this idea that everyone that calls themself doctor is trying to be dishonest. Maybe like you said, I am very naive.

yes you are naive on this point

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[Maz777]

I though NP stood for 'Not Physician'.

Don't say the word "physician." It's triggering for many noctors. This is a safe space here. We are all interchangeable providers.

 

[Maz777]

Most people understand the NP stands for nurse. The person in the article had NP very prominently displayed. I don't buy this idea that everyone that calls themself doctor is trying to be dishonest. Maybe like you said, I am very naive.

Naive is not the adjective I would use to describe your belief on this matter.

 

[TheLoneWolf]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/18/doctor-nurse-title-lawsuit-california/

I can see both sides to this.

On one hand, if I spend the time getting a doctorate, I should be able to celebrate that fact in title. Do PhD professors get called Dr Smartypants when addressed?

Jack Ryan (in the Tom Clancy series) is called Dr Ryan.

BUT....

How does the Dr Nurse want to let the world know he/she isn't a physician? How do they propose we introduce ourselves to distinguish us from them? They have not answered this important question.

No

When a history professor at a university calls himself Dr..., the public inherently knows he is not a physician nor is he describing himself as such.

When nurses with a nurse PhD do this that are violating both of the above points.

 

[IMGASMD]

No

When a history professor at a university calls himself Dr..., the public inherently knows he is not a physician nor is he describing himself as such.

When nurses with a nurse PhD do this that are violating both of the above points.

Exactly.
What does “nursing practice” actually practice in a hospital?
Nursing? Health care? Is that a speciality, that I am not aware of? Are they internist, surgeon? Beauty consultant? Confidence boosters? What are they actually the expert of?!

 

[epidural man]

Naive is not the adjective I would use to describe your belief on this matter.

What is my belief on this point? Can you articulate it?

 

[GravelRider]

I would be pissed if I was a PhD and people were equating the DNP and their “thesis” to the work I did.

 

[vector2]

I would be pissed if I was a PhD and people were equating the DNP and their “thesis” to the work I did.

The problem is such an infinitesimally small slice of the public actually knows that a Masters thesis, PhD thesis, or medical degree is like 100 orders of magnitude more difficult to write/obtain than a nursing fluff degree book report.

There'd probably be more outrage if they understood a DNP calling themselves doctor is like a 12 yo who spent a week at space camp calling themselves an astronaut.

 

[Maz777]

What is my belief on this point? Can you articulate it?

I have difficulty articulating idiocy. It's one of my many weaknesses.

 

[Maz777]

There are doctors.

There are mid-levels.

There are nurses.

It's pretty simple. Anything else intentionally misleads patients (APP, DNP, nurse anesthesiologist, word salad nonsense, etc.). I would venture to say that <10% of my patients know what an NP or PA is. They are pretty damn sure the cardiology NP that saw them as an initial consult for new-onset AF was a "heart doctor."

 

[Airway]

One of the dumbest NPs I ever met, that said with a straight face that she was an intensivist and covid burnes her out introduces her to patients as 'np in cardiovascular medicine'. Let me assure you, her goal is to obfuscate the truth and be referred to as doctor one day.

 

[pgg]

Maybe. I think I'm actually pretty good at listening to what people ACTUALLY say - but maybe miss what they are TRYING to say.

I don't think you are.

You didn't actually read what I wrote, at least twice in just this thread, before responding in bizarre fashion to misrepresent what I said, to fuel another episode of Look How Open Minded I Am.

It's an odd kind of performance art.


Let's recap:

DNP = bad people....got it.

But that isn't what @pgg said. He said they are all bad people....all DNPs.

And what I actually wrote:

The ones who get DNPs and go around calling themselves doctors are not dumb. They're just bad people.

And then:

Maybe like you said, I am very naive.

At no point in this in this thread did I say you were naive. You can take a moment to CTRL-F and search the thread for that word, but you won't find it in my posts.


Your MO here, and in other threads, is very weird. Post something provocative or controversial, aggressively play devil's advocate like you're his personal attorney, and when people respond, misquote or misrepresent them to continue the argument you want to make.

For all your insistence that you listen to both sides, I don't see it. In fact, if I didn't know better, I'd think you were on the AANA payroll to advance the right of nurses to fraudulently call themselves doctors in front of patients.

What the hell, man?

 

[Beeftenderloin]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

Im married to a physical therapist. They completed a 3 year program, full time, straight through, no summers off, none of this bogus working full time while doing online assignments on the side. First ~18 months they did the same full cadaver dissection and took the same systems based physiology/pathophysiology, biostats, pharmacology courses (sure, just the cardiac, pulmonary, MSK and neuro units for pharm, but they don’t really need to know what dicyclomine or entyvio do) right along side the medical and PA students, plus all their PT specific course work. Then ~18 months of full time clinical rotations. Sure, call me biased, but that’s a REAL clinical doctorate.

Either you rigorously contribute to scientific knowledge through thesis/publications (eg PhD) or you take legitimately rigorous clinical coursework/rotations. These bogus DNP degrees check neither of those boxes. They serve no purpose other than to deceive and suggest to lay people that they’ve accomplished something that they haven’t.

 

[sevo00]

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

What’s the huge accomplishment? It’s a purely online degree. They can be called doctor is their own academic circles. Never in an actual clinical setting. Full stop. It really is that simple not sure why you are on here advocating for them. Are you married to a NP?

 

[DiprivanDaddy]

Maybe some perspective from the nursing profession might be of value. I am currently an ICU nurse in Florida and have tremendous respect for the physicians I work with. My intent is to go to medical school in a few years, but I am proud of my current profession and proud of what I have to offer my patients.

I can tell you right of the bat that there are many APPs w/ doctorate-level education attempting to obfuscate their titles to the general public. That being said, if an APP utilizes the title of Dr. but also points out their professional qualifications, I fail to see the dilemma in this situation. For example, "Hello, my name is Dr. ABC and I am a nurse practitioner w/ the trauma service here." I believe as long as the title of Dr. and the professional qualifications exist in the same sentence, its just pride in his/her educational accomplishments. There is no comparison between the rigor of the MD/DNP, but DNPs at brick/mortar schools are still usually fairly challenging science-heavy curriculums. Degree mills definetely cast a negative light over the entire profession, which is unfair to those NPs who really do a good job for their patients. Also, comparing the PhD to any practice degree is a little ridiculous. Even comparing the MD to the PhD is apples to oranges. There are practice doctorates (MD,DO,DPM,DNP etc.) and there is the research doctorate (PhD in anything). They present different forms of challenge to the students pursuing them.

I frankly don't understand the animosity towards nurses presented on these forums. Physicians and nurses work together to better patient outcomes. There are bad eggs in every professional community but these people don't represent the entire community. Healthcare is a field requiring altruism. The tone on these forums makes me think maybe some of us have lost our way.

 

[DiprivanDaddy]

What’s the huge accomplishment? It’s a purely online degree. They can be called doctor is their own academic circles. Never in an actual clinical setting. Full stop. It really is that simple not sure why you are on here advocating for them. Are you married to a NP?

The didactic course work is online for NPs (this post is in the Anesthesia forums - CRNAs complete their didactic in person). All DNPs have a clinical component completed in an acute care or primary care setting.

Again, not advocating for the obfuscation of qualifications to the general public or comparing the rigor of the educational path between MD/DO and the NP/CRNA, but what you posted is factually incorrect.

 

[chessknt]

Maybe some perspective from the nursing profession might be of value. I am currently an ICU nurse in Florida and have tremendous respect for the physicians I work with. My intent is to go to medical school in a few years, but I am proud of my current profession and proud of what I have to offer my patients.

I can tell you right of the bat that there are many APPs w/ doctorate-level education attempting to obfuscate their titles to the general public. That being said, if an APP utilizes the title of Dr. but also points out their professional qualifications, I fail to see the dilemma in this situation. For example, "Hello, my name is Dr. ABC and I am a nurse practitioner w/ the trauma service here." I believe as long as the title of Dr. and the professional qualifications exist in the same sentence, its just pride in his/her educational accomplishments. There is no comparison between the rigor of the MD/DNP, but DNPs at brick/mortar schools are still usually fairly challenging science-heavy curriculums. Degree mills definetely cast a negative light over the entire profession, which is unfair to those NPs who really do a good job for their patients. Also, comparing the PhD to any practice degree is a little ridiculous. Even comparing the MD to the PhD is apples to oranges. There are practice doctorates (MD,DO,DPM,DNP etc.) and there is the research doctorate (PhD in anything). They present different forms of challenge to the students pursuing them.

I frankly don't understand the animosity towards nurses presented on these forums. Physicians and nurses work together to better patient outcomes. There are bad eggs in every professional community but these people don't represent the entire community. Healthcare is a field requiring altruism. The tone on these forums makes me think maybe some of us have lost our way.

It isn't animosity towards nurses, it is toward midlevels who insist on using a title in a setting to create confusion. How do PAs introduce themselves? Why is it necessary to use any title at all if not to create that confusion? Patient care is not the area to flaunt your pride, save it for some board meetings or academic settings or conferences or crap. People on drugs and in pain shouldn't have to pay attention to semantics to know who the **** they are talking to.

 

[Ubba]

In the healthcare setting, the word "doctor" connotes that its bearer has undergone education and training enabling him to make definitive decisions about diagnosis and treatment with confidence and competence, and that to a large extent, the buck for those decisions stops with him. It suggests a terminus of authority, at least in a limited sense (of course, referrals and second opinions exist).

Maybe DNP programs lead to this outcome. Maybe they don't. I dunno. But the concept of a "DNP" seems like a phenomenon of the participation-trophy generations. Cue Oprah meme about "you get a car [doctorate], you get a car, everybody gets a car!"

Funny thing, though. To a lesser extent, American MDs also get a bit of a "free ride" when it comes to the word "doctor." In many other countries, one must present a thesis to graduate medical school. It would be nice if American schools were also that way. Too many automatons.

 

[DiprivanDaddy]

It isn't animosity towards nurses, it is toward midlevels who insist on using a title in a setting to create confusion. How do PAs introduce themselves? Why is it necessary to use any title at all if not to create that confusion? Patient care is not the area to flaunt your pride, save it for some board meetings or academic settings or conferences or crap. People on drugs and in pain shouldn't have to pay attention to semantics to know who the **** they are talking to.

There are PA-Cs w/ DMSc degrees now, so the issue isn't exclusive to NPs. I agree the clinical setting isn't a place to flaunt pride. Nonetheless, "Dr" is both a practitioner of medicine and a graduate of an academic doctorate program. Both meanings of the word apply to physicians but the latter of the two meanings still applies to APPs w/ a doctorate. As long as they don't obfuscate the truth and identify themselves appropriately, I don't see it as completely inappropriate.

Arguing the rigor of the DNP program being worthy of the title Dr. is a different argument entirely.

 

[Maz777]

Maybe some perspective from the nursing profession might be of value. I am currently an ICU nurse in Florida and have tremendous respect for the physicians I work with. My intent is to go to medical school in a few years, but I am proud of my current profession and proud of what I have to offer my patients.

I can tell you right of the bat that there are many APPs w/ doctorate-level education attempting to obfuscate their titles to the general public. That being said, if an APP utilizes the title of Dr. but also points out their professional qualifications, I fail to see the dilemma in this situation. For example, "Hello, my name is Dr. ABC and I am a nurse practitioner w/ the trauma service here." I believe as long as the title of Dr. and the professional qualifications exist in the same sentence, its just pride in his/her educational accomplishments. There is no comparison between the rigor of the MD/DNP, but DNPs at brick/mortar schools are still usually fairly challenging science-heavy curriculums. Degree mills definetely cast a negative light over the entire profession, which is unfair to those NPs who really do a good job for their patients. Also, comparing the PhD to any practice degree is a little ridiculous. Even comparing the MD to the PhD is apples to oranges. There are practice doctorates (MD,DO,DPM,DNP etc.) and there is the research doctorate (PhD in anything). They present different forms of challenge to the students pursuing them.

I frankly don't understand the animosity towards nurses presented on these forums. Physicians and nurses work together to better patient outcomes. There are bad eggs in every professional community but these people don't represent the entire community. Healthcare is a field requiring altruism. The tone on these forums makes me think maybe some of us have lost our way.

If you introduce yourself as Dr. XXX, that's all most patients hear. Even if one follows it up with their acronym word salad.

Stop using the term APP, it's completely made up and means nothing. There's nothing advanced about them.

If you get into medical school, do a residency, and then finally become an attending, then you understand what 99.9% of us are talking about and why it's important to not pretend to be a physician in front of patients.

 

[epidural man]

I have difficulty articulating idiocy. It's one of my many weaknesses.

So you can’t?

 

[chessknt]

There are PA-Cs w/ DMSc degrees now, so the issue isn't exclusive to NPs. I agree the clinical setting isn't a place to flaunt pride. Nonetheless, "Dr" is both a practitioner of medicine and a graduate of an academic doctorate program. Both meanings of the word apply to physicians but the latter of the two meanings still applies to APPs w/ a doctorate. As long as they don't obfuscate the truth and identify themselves appropriately, I don't see it as completely inappropriate.

Arguing the rigor of the DNP program being worthy of the title Dr. is a different argument entirely.

I work with a PA with a doctorate degree--he never introduces himself in that way. He also got the degree and taught in a medical school, not just to inflate his clinical titles.

I don't understand how you can agree that it is inappropriate but then simultaneously excuse it in the next sentence. The bedside isn't a classroom or any sort of setting where completion of a graduate program matters--the midlevel is under supervision and nobody in that room cares about what he/she is doing outside of the clinical setting. A midlevel who insists on using a Dr title in a clinical setting is either intentionally using it to confuse a vulnerable patient they are there to ostensibly care for or so self-obsessed/righteous that the confusion it clearly creates doesn't matter to them. In both cases it is inappropriate and shouldn't be tolerated.

I also disagree that there is a scenario where it could be 'clear.' If someone is wincing in pain, on opiates, withdrawing from drugs, tired from being woken up 7 times last night etc etc. they aren't going to be parsing exact phrasing--they hear Dr. X and apply a physician label to that person, the end.

 

[DiprivanDaddy]

I work with a PA with a doctorate degree--he never introduces himself in that way. He also got the degree and taught in a medical school, not just to inflate his clinical titles.

I don't understand how you can agree that it is inappropriate but then simultaneously excuse it in the next sentence. The bedside isn't a classroom or any sort of setting where completion of a graduate program matters--the midlevel is under supervision and nobody in that room cares about what he/she is doing outside of the clinical setting. A midlevel who insists on using a Dr title in a clinical setting is either intentionally using it to confuse a vulnerable patient they are there to ostensibly care for or so self-obsessed/righteous that the confusion it clearly creates doesn't matter to them. In both cases it is inappropriate and shouldn't be tolerated.

I also disagree that there is a scenario where it could be 'clear.' If someone is wincing in pain, on opiates, withdrawing from drugs, tired from being woken up 7 times last night etc etc. they aren't going to be parsing exact phrasing--they hear Dr. X and apply a physician label to that person, the end.

I agreed that the clinical setting isn't a place to flaunt pride in general. I also didn't say I agreed with the use of Dr., I just said that if it is factually correct and there is no attempt at misleading the patient about the qualifications of the provider, I don't see how it is inappropriate. Nonetheless, I see your point about the patient perception regardless of what the provider says when introducing themselves. For some, all they are going to hear is "Dr" and disregard the rest.

 

[vector2]

I agreed that the clinical setting isn't a place to flaunt pride in general. I also didn't say I agreed with the use of Dr., I just said that if it is factually correct and there is no attempt at misleading the patient about the qualifications of the provider, I don't see how it is inappropriate. Nonetheless, I see your point about the patient perception regardless of what the provider says when introducing themselves. For some, all they are going to hear is "Dr" and disregard the rest.

Can you step back for a second and ask yourself why doctorate clinical pharmacists, physical therapists, etc, i.e. people who have really deep expertise and who are near the top of their field, aren't so terribly desperate like DNPs to go around the hospital calling themselves doctor?

It's because they can derive their value from their expertise. Their expertise speaks for itself in the way they're compensated, in their relative job scarcity, their school entry difficulty, and in the way they're invaluable to the practice of medicine. As an ICU physician, I don't give a good gddamn what the ICU pharmacist calls themselves because I really, really need that person's expertise. I know it, and they know it, so they know there's no reason for them to put on airs. More simply put, Steph Curry's jumpshot speaks for itself.

But are DNPs experts in absolutely anything related to the practice of medicine? Do physicians such as myself seek them out when we have a tough problem? Do hospitals seek them out to be clinical service line leaders instead of service line midlevels? Of course not. So unless the DNP follows their "Dr." introduction with a 3 minute speech about how minimal their qualifications are, the intent is obviously entirely to mislead, imo.

 

[Dr. Rude]

....I frankly don't understand the animosity towards nurses presented on these forums. Physicians and nurses work together to better patient outcomes. There are bad eggs in every professional community but these people don't represent the entire community. Healthcare is a field requiring altruism. The tone on these forums makes me think maybe some of us have lost our way.

Thank you for your post. The animosity is driven by the toxicity of the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists (AANA) and their state societies. Most of us spend all or most of our time supervising CRNAs. For more than three decades the official position of AANA has been that what we do every day doesn't matter. Specifically, Anesthesiologist Supervision of CRNAs does not improve patient outcome. They have been relentless in trying to sell the message that Anesthesiologists and CRNAs are interchangeable providers. Title misappropriation is one tool that they are using to achieve this agenda.

I don't know how many CRNAs actually agree with their position, but I do know that when a state scope of practice issue comes up, legislators usually get far more letters from individual CRNAs than individual Anesthesiologists, Also CRNAs contribute to their PAC in higher percentages than Anesthesiologists.
With the exception of a few CRNAs who subsequently when to medical school and became anesthesiologists I have never in my 30+ year career heard of a CRNA publicly saying that solo CRNA care is second best to Anesthesiologist supervision.

 

[Southpaw]

If my 2nd grader achieves of a level of 2nd grade mastery as determined by the University of Phoenix and they are awarded a doctorate, I guess @epidural man would have me call them Doctor for the rest of their days.

At some point the doctorate game, when it comes to nursing and seeing this for what it truly is (deceiving patients and not actual mastery of a subject), is actual fraud. When it comes to online DNPs that’s all it is. They are not doctorate level nurses. They are wannabe physicians who want to diagnose and treat medical illness, and they want to be referred to as Doctor. I’m sorry, but from where I stand that is fraud.

 

[godfather091]

Starting to see this more. CRNAs were telling ob nurses to call Srna’s “anesthesia residents”, otherwise “they wouldn’t get to do stuff”. It was jarring because it was the first time this nonsense occurred in my facility. We shut it down immediately, as they were in essence lying to patients, but if you look at aana resources/social media that’s what they call Srnas so thought nothing of it. “NARs” now being shortened. “MDA” and “resident” has fully entered the lexicon of CRNAs. New “anesthesia doctors” that we hire maybe have tried putting in a couple of central lines but have observed 5 and likely think they are equivalent to a new grad anesthesiologist I.e. can be “fully independent”. Current srnas have told me they “prefer” the model where the anesthesiologist isn’t there for induction or emergence but likes them to be there when needed (the preop monkey-pacu dumpster firefighter model). Its honestly depressing it’s gotten to this point.

 

[Simba1711]

I work solo so don’t have to deal with this nonsense. Feel for you guys that work in the team model. Sadly , some of my colleagues around that same age as me at academic places like the supervision model so they have more free time and less time in the or.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I can see both sides to this.

What a joke.

 

[Maz777]

So you can’t?

Correct. I have an anaphylactic reaction towards speaking nonsense. I’d have to pretreat with epi. Not worth it.

 

[Maz777]

I work solo so don’t have to deal with this nonsense. Feel for you guys that work in the team model. Sadly , some of my colleagues around that same age as me at academic places like the supervision model so they have more free time and less time in the or.

It’s quite sad. I’m in a hybrid model that allows for preferences. Those that choose to staff CRNAs rather than solo a room or supervise residents are typically those that never meet their patients and sign charts at the end of the day.

 

[GaseousClay]

I work solo so don’t have to deal with this nonsense. Feel for you guys that work in the team model. Sadly , some of my colleagues around that same age as me at academic places like the supervision model so they have more free time and less time in the or.

im at a balanced place and i prefer to do solo wayyy more. especially since the newer crnas are way more entitled and the CRNA = MD indoctrination is very strong within them

 

[2019medstudent]

I agreed that the clinical setting isn't a place to flaunt pride in general. I also didn't say I agreed with the use of Dr., I just said that if it is factually correct and there is no attempt at misleading the patient about the qualifications of the provider, I don't see how it is inappropriate. Nonetheless, I see your point about the patient perception regardless of what the provider says when introducing themselves. For some, all they are going to hear is "Dr" and disregard the rest.

Physical therapists and pharmacists don't even refer to themselves as doctor in the hospital so as to not confuse patients. No way NP's or PA's should either.

 

[GassYous]

Physical therapists and pharmacists don't even refer to themselves as doctor in the hospital so as to not confuse patients. No way NP's or PA's should either.

They actually make it a point to not do it as to avoid confusion. They correct anyone who addresses them as doctor.

 

[coffeebythelake]

Pharmacist training is way more rigorous and intensive than any DNP. They don't compare. The DNP curriculum is prime example for how pathetically weak nursing education is. It is created for the singular goal of nurses to play wannabe doctors... and an excuse for them to tell patients they are doctors "because physicians don't own the term doctor"

Same can be said for PAs and the DMS degree. maybe a step up more than the DNP.

 

[moisne]

I was scrolling on a dating app and a crna wrote nurse anesthesiologist on her profile smh

So... Funny thing. Someone in my program was a CRNA and went back to med school and completed anesthesiology residency. She could definitely claim to be a nurse anesthesiologist.

I think if someone says they are a nurse anesthesiologist, I would reply with "wow, so AFTER you became a CRNA, you then went BACK into med school to learn more about medicine and then completed an anesthesia residency? Damn, you are so hardcore"

 

[GassYous]

So... Funny thing. Someone in my program was a CRNA and went back to med school and completed anesthesiology residency. She could definitely claim to be a nurse anesthesiologist.

I think if someone says they are a nurse anesthesiologist, I would reply with "wow, so AFTER you became a CRNA, you then went BACK into med school to learn more about medicine and then completed an anesthesia residency? Damn, you are so hardcore"

A recent asa president did this

 

[Dr. Rude]

A recent asa president did this

Yes. I was a little disappointed that she wasn’t more publicly vocal about the difference in training given her very rare background. Looks like a missed opportunity to draw public attention to the issue.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Someone in my program was a CRNA and went back to med school and completed anesthesiology residency.

I personally know three individuals who took this route.

 

[2Fast2Des]

Yes. I was a little disappointed that she wasn’t more publicly vocal about the difference in training given her very rare background. Looks like a missed opportunity to draw public attention to the issue.

Because ASA is so weak and afraid of the AANA.... Yet the other side has no qualms of playing dirty.

I also expect to see the janitor with a doctorate of sanitation engineering getting called dr in the hospital and wearing a full length lab coat.

I refuse to wear a white coat anymore. The OR nursing director, the OR charge nurse both wear white coats. Even the cafeteria lady wears a ducking white coat. It seems like everyone in the hospital but the docs wear a white coat so it has lost all it's meaning to me. I honestly think we should get rid of white coat ceremony for medical school as well

 

[nimbus]

Anybody know of any CRNA who went to medical school and picked another specialty? Or is the lure of anesthesia too strong?

 

[nimbus]

Because ASA is so weak and afraid of the AANA.... Yet the other side has no qualms of playing dirty.


I refuse to wear a white coat anymore. The OR nursing director, the OR charge nurse both wear white coats. Even the cafeteria lady wears a ducking white coat. It seems like everyone in the hospital but the docs wear a white coat so it has lost all it's meaning to me. I honestly think we should get rid of white coat ceremony for medical school as well

I lost the white coat at the beginning of CA-2 year and never felt the need to replace it. Anyway this is the new white coat/fomite, especially for house staff. Fleece ceremony should replace the white coat ceremony.

Patagonia Women's Better Sweater® Fleece Jacket

Our Patagonia® Women’s Better Sweater® Jacket is a full-zip jacket made of warm 100% recycled polyester fleece.

www.patagonia.com

 

[Beeftenderloin]

Because ASA is so weak and afraid of the AANA.... Yet the other side has no qualms of playing dirty.


I refuse to wear a white coat anymore. The OR nursing director, the OR charge nurse both wear white coats. Even the cafeteria lady wears a ducking white coat. It seems like everyone in the hospital but the docs wear a white coat so it has lost all it's meaning to me. I honestly think we should get rid of white coat ceremony for medical school as well

I didn’t mind wearing one outside the OR as a fellow because attendings/fellows wore dark gray coats, while residents, clip board nurses and noctors wore white coats. Where I now work there’s no difference. The clipboard nurses/noctors wear the same white coat as the docs. I never bothered to order any.

 

[kidthor]

I lost the white coat at the beginning of CA-2 year and never felt the need to replace it. Anyway this is the new white coat/fomite, especially for house staff. Fleece ceremony should replace the white coat ceremony.

Patagonia Women's Better Sweater® Fleece Jacket

Our Patagonia® Women’s Better Sweater® Jacket is a full-zip jacket made of warm 100% recycled polyester fleece.

www.patagonia.com

Indeed the fleeces are in.

I can't wear one because I'd get way too hot.

 

[moisne]

Fleece ceremony should replace the white coat ceremony.

Patagonia Women's Better Sweater® Fleece Jacket

Our Patagonia® Women’s Better Sweater® Jacket is a full-zip jacket made of warm 100% recycled polyester fleece.

www.patagonia.com

At my hospital, we stopped doing fleece. the NPs/PAs were catching on. We quickly switched over to lulus for now... Next year will be something different.

 

[PikminOC]

Im married to a physical therapist. They completed a 3 year program, full time, straight through, no summers off, none of this bogus working full time while doing online assignments on the side. First ~18 months they did the same full cadaver dissection and took the same systems based physiology/pathophysiology, biostats, pharmacology courses (sure, just the cardiac, pulmonary, MSK and neuro units for pharm, but they don’t really need to know what dicyclomine or entyvio do) right along side the medical and PA students, plus all their PT specific course work. Then ~18 months of full time clinical rotations. Sure, call me biased, but that’s a REAL clinical doctorate.

Either you rigorously contribute to scientific knowledge through thesis/publications (eg PhD) or you take legitimately rigorous clinical coursework/rotations. These bogus DNP degrees check neither of those boxes. They serve no purpose other than to deceive and suggest to lay people that they’ve accomplished something that they haven’t.

There is a huge difference in competition between the med students who took those classes and the curves versus any other field. What school was this where midlevels like pa and MD and all the fields take the same classes together?

 

[Anesthesia_Guy]

There is a huge difference in competition between the med students who took those classes and the curves versus any other field. What school was this where midlevels like pa and MD and all the fields take the same classes together?

A bad one.

 

[Beeftenderloin]

There is a huge difference in competition between the med students who took those classes and the curves versus any other field. What school was this where midlevels like pa and MD and all the fields take the same classes together?

I’m very confused by this post. There were no curves. Just different motivations. PAs and DPTs grades didn’t really matter because they’re at the terminal phase of their respective training. Gunners aside, they were just trying to pass those classes, nothing more. Med students were pushing to keep a solid GPA because it mattered for match. I didn’t even go to the same school as her. Different school, different state, but during pre clinical phase we took several classes with the PA and DPT students as well. This is a pretty common model at a lot of multi specialty health science school. Steps are the great equalizer though. At least at that time they were. If your school sucks, or more importantly, if you suck, you aren’t going to do well.

 

[DesiredMemberName?]

I’m very confused by this post. There were no curves. Just different motivations. PAs and DPTs grades didn’t really matter because they’re at the terminal phase of their respective training. Gunners aside, they were just trying to pass those classes, nothing more. Med students were pushing to keep a solid GPA because it mattered for match. I didn’t even go to the same school as her. Different school, different state, but during pre clinical phase we took several classes with the PA and DPT students as well. This is a pretty common model at a lot of multi specialty health science school. Steps are the great equalizer though. At least at that time they were. If your school sucks, or more importantly, if you suck, you aren’t going to do well.

We had DPT and dental students (no PAs) take some modules in anatomy/physiology with the med studs. They were graded separately with separate curves on exams.

I’m sure most med studs would’ve preferred to be graded together as it would’ve made for a more generous curve.

 

[Hoya11]

Because ASA is so weak and afraid of the AANA.... Yet the other side has no qualms of playing dirty.


I refuse to wear a white coat anymore. The OR nursing director, the OR charge nurse both wear white coats. Even the cafeteria lady wears a ducking white coat. It seems like everyone in the hospital but the docs wear a white coat so it has lost all it's meaning to me. I honestly think we should get rid of white coat ceremony for medical school as well

ASA at an all time low.

No advocacy.
Increased frequency of recertification.
Non evidence based guidelines

Probably worst physician group that exists