Dr Nurse - I see both sides

[epidural man]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/18/doctor-nurse-title-lawsuit-california/

I can see both sides to this.

On one hand, if I spend the time getting a doctorate, I should be able to celebrate that fact in title. Do PhD professors get called Dr Smartypants when addressed?

Jack Ryan (in the Tom Clancy series) is called Dr Ryan.

BUT....

How does the Dr Nurse want to let the world know he/she isn't a physician? How do they propose we introduce ourselves to distinguish us from them? They have not answered this important question.

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[PikminOC]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/18/doctor-nurse-title-lawsuit-california/

I can see both sides to this.

On one hand, if I spend the time getting a doctorate, I should be able to celebrate that fact in title. Do PhD professors get called Dr Smartypants when addressed?

Jack Ryan (in the Tom Clancy series) is called Dr Ryan.

BUT....

How does the Dr Nurse want to let the world know he/she isn't a physician? How do they propose we introduce ourselves to distinguish us from them? They have not answered this important question.

They are trying to purposely obfuscate

 

[Dr. Rude]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/18/doctor-nurse-title-lawsuit-california/

I can see both sides to this.

On one hand, if I spend the time getting a doctorate, I should be able to celebrate that fact in title. Do PhD professors get called Dr Smartypants when addressed?

Jack Ryan (in the Tom Clancy series) is called Dr Ryan.

BUT....

How does the Dr Nurse want to let the world know he/she isn't a physician? How do they propose we introduce ourselves to distinguish us from them? They have not answered this important question.

I don't see both sides.

The only reason that APPs with Doctorates use the term "Doctor" and APP trainees use therm "resident" and CRNAs use the term "nurse anesthesiologist" is that they sound better and might be useful of convincing others of their skills.
.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I don't see both sides.

The only reason that APPs with Doctorates use the term "Doctor" and APP trainees use therm "resident" and CRNAs use the term "nurse anesthesiologist" is that they sound better and might be useful of convincing others of their skills.
.

They want patients to think they are physicians and have the training that physicians have. Simple as that.

 

[epidural man]

They want patients to think they are physicians and have the training that physicians have. Simple as that.

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

 

[godfather091]

Deceitful from the beginning by the nursing powers that be. The only thing I like about DNP on the credentials is it shows me who the new CRNAs are so I can pay closer attention to them. If given the option, I’d say most srnas would rather make $ than pay money to do online modules unrelated to nurse anesthesia

 

[DesiredMemberName?]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

The nurse’s right to feel proud of an accomplishment doesn’t trump the patient’s right to a clear understanding of the credentials of their care team.

It really is that simple. The motives of the nurse are irrelevant. We all have a responsibility to our patients to clearly and unambiguously identify ourselves to them.

 

[Simba1711]

I was scrolling on a dating app and a crna wrote nurse anesthesiologist on her profile smh

 

[Maz777]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

My toddler took a huge dump this morning. It felt like a huge accomplishment to him.

Not everything that one perceives to be a huge accomplishment is in fact a huge accomplishment.

 

[Beeftenderloin]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

As other have alluded to, I’m sure it FEELS like a huge accomplishment to them. But these degree mills with their BS “capstone projects” would get laughed out of virtually every PHD program and the clinical aspect isn’t anywhere near rigorous enough to qualify as doctorate level by any board other than nursing.

 

[anonperson]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

DNP is a joke.

The courses are nothing.

 

[coffeebythelake]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

The fact that they always feel the need to compare themselves to doctors... that thry somehow have more empathy.. more people skills... more time with patients... better outcomes than doctors on some useless metric... says a lot.

And "nurse anesthesiologist"?? Does this need any explanation? They want the public to think they have the same qualifications as real anesthesiologists.

 

[nimbus]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/07/18/doctor-nurse-title-lawsuit-california/

I can see both sides to this.

On one hand, if I spend the time getting a doctorate, I should be able to celebrate that fact in title. Do PhD professors get called Dr Smartypants when addressed?

Jack Ryan (in the Tom Clancy series) is called Dr Ryan.

BUT....

How does the Dr Nurse want to let the world know he/she isn't a physician? How do they propose we introduce ourselves to distinguish us from them? They have not answered this important question.

You answered your own question. They’re welcome to call themselves “Nurse Dr. Palmer”. Just like “Reverend Doctor” or “Professor Doctor”. They can use Nurse Doctor to distinguish themselves from regular nurses who don’t have doctorates. They can practice nursing at the highest level but they are not practicing medicine. In order to practice medicine, they need to graduate from medical school. The word “nurse” should be included in their title because that is what they are by profession and training. I think nurses are rightly proud of their profession and would want the word in their title. When they omit the word “nurse”, it can lead to confusion among patients and the public so they should proudly keep it in their title.

The trouble is that “doctor” has multiple definitions in the English language.

 

[IMGASMD]

A title means nothing to me when I am among colleagues and friends. I don’t make it a thing when I introduce myself to new people, even at a hospital, as “Hi, I am Dr. IMGASMD.” I usually say “I am Bob IMGASMD.” In fact, many times I try to hide the fact that I am a physician. Maybe you all are different, but for me that title is only used in the presence of a patient. When I go see my pcp, who is a few years younger than me, I call him doctor pcp. Because that title under that circumstance conveys authority and respect.

Dr. Jack Ryan or Dr. Ross Geller only means something at the right place and situation. If a DNP were at a nursing school and/or an appropriate setting, sure they can use that title as much as they want. When they use it at a hospital, they are saying I want that respect all you physicians get, nothing more nothing less.

 

[nimbus]

A title means nothing to me when I am among colleagues and friends. I don’t make it a thing when I introduce myself to new people, even at a hospital, as “Hi, I am Dr. IMGASMD.” I usually say “I am Bob IMGASMD.” In fact, many times I try to hide the fact that I am a physician. Maybe you all are different, but for me that title is only used in the presence of a patient. When I go see my pcp, who is a few years younger than me, I call him doctor pcp. Because that title under that circumstance conveys authority and respect.

Dr. Jack Ryan or Dr. Ross Geller only means something at the right place and situation. If a DNP were at a nursing school and/or an appropriate setting, sure they can use that title as much as they want. When they use it at a hospital, they are saying I want that respect all you physicians get, nothing more nothing less.

I especially try to hide my profession from plumbers

 

[DirtDocMD]

If they had added 2-3 years to their training programs to achieve this “doctorate” status, I “might” have slightly more sympathy for them. Instead, they came up with some “workaround” (Hey!! Have them write some mickey mouse term paper, call it a “thesis”, and then say they’ve received a “doctorate”!).

If you’re standing in a clinic or a hospital, folks have certain “expectations” when you go around calling yourself “Doctor”.

I can weld two pieces of metal together, but I certainly wouldn’t go on an oilfield site, and call myself a WELDER.

 

[nimbus]

I was scrolling on a dating app and a crna wrote nurse anesthesiologist on her profile smh

But after you shook your head, did you swipe left or right?

 

[jwk]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

I honestly do think it's that simple.

PharmDs don't refer to themselves as doctor. Attorneys certainly don't refer to themselves as doctor. I do see it as legitimate in academia with PhDs, but even there, many don't refer to themselves as doctor away from the colleges and universities.

 

[coffeebythelake]

 

[GaseousClay]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

their DNP is a joke and can mostly be completed online

 

[IMGASMD]

I especially try to hide my profession from plumbers

There’s definitely a doctor premium when working with them.

 

[epidural man]

You guys are funny...

I can see why our political discussions are so difficult and frustrating.

Changing the subject completely and not related in the least -

Have you guys ever read "To Kill a Mockingbird?"

Here are some quotes that are great from that book - just to share...I like to share.

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view ... Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it."

"I think there's one kind of folks. Folks."

"People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for."

 

[NICMAN]

I earned a real doctorate PhD with real publications in real scientific journals. I didn’t call myself “doctor” during the last two years of medical school.

 

[aneftp]

A real ph.d teaching at university level is much harder to accomplish than these dnp.

 

[GassYous]

"I'm the only reasonable person that can see every side of every issue" -epidural man

 

[nimbus]

A real ph.d teaching at university level is much harder to accomplish than these dnp.

Even within nursing, a Ph.D. is different than a DNP.

 

[aneftp]

Even within nursing, a Ph.D. is different than a DNP.

We all know that.

Ph.D my biochemistry big University professor. Now that’s a real ph.d.

 

[HemeOncHopeful19]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

Why then do you think it is only DNPs that seem to be clamoring for this and not all the pharmacists and physical therapists?

 

[Dr. Rude]

Why then do you think it is only DNPs that seem to be clamoring for this and not all the pharmacists and physical therapists?

Because they don’t compete with physicians.

 

[DocMcCoy]

Why then do you think it is only DNPs that seem to be clamoring for this and not all the pharmacists and physical therapists?

They all want the same thing, especially PAs with their DMS degree…

The PA Doctor - A New Kind of Doctor

The PA Doctor advocates for PAs and for patients alike. We believe that we need more educated healthcare providers, not less.

thepadoctor.com

 

[psychbender]

You guys are funny...

I can see why our political discussions are so difficult and frustrating.

Changing the subject completely and not related in the least -

Have you guys ever read "To Kill a Mockingbird?"

Here are some quotes that are great from that book - just to share...I like to share.

"You never really understand a person until you consider things from his point of view ... Until you climb inside of his skin and walk around in it."

"I think there's one kind of folks. Folks."

"People generally see what they look for, and hear what they listen for."

My wife is an NP, and finds this DNP nonsense to be utter bull****. Most of my older NPs in the ICU think this whole thing is bull****. The ICU RNs and endo nurses going for their DNPs part-time and on-line, who openly talk about how great it'll be when they're called doctor are the ones that are excited about this crap. Seriously, no change in clinical hours between a masters NP and a 'doctorate' NP, just a couple of biostatistics, business, fluff courses, and a capstone project that wouldn't even cut the muster of an undergrad research project at any university. That's it. They can feel a sense of personal accomplishment for completing something that, to them, was difficult. That doesn't mean that they get free reign to deceive patients as to their knowledge and qualifications

 

[pgg]

I disagree. I don't think it is that simple.

I get that we WANT it to be that simple so we can vilify them.

You don't think completing a DNP feels like a huge accomplishment to them? Or you think they did it with the goal to be deceitful from the beginning?

Your bothsides-ism is getting the best of you again. I get that you try very hard to be openminded, and to understand other people.

But sometimes you miss the obvious truth of what other people are doing, and why they're doing it, in your efforts to explain away their actions in the most forgiving way.

Sometimes, the other side actually does have nefarious, selfish, dishonest, awful intent. Sometimes, the other side is actually behaving in an indefensible manner, for the purpose of self-enrichment, at the cost of endangering others. Sometimes, the other side is taking advantage of people who want to believe the best things about other people. People like you.

This is one of those times.


They are not dumb. They are not confused. They know that a DNP obtained while working full time isn't remotely comparable to a PhD in chemistry or another doctorate-level course of study. They know very well that a DNP is not anywhere near equivalent to a MD or DO.

To think they don't know these things, that they are stupid enough to not realize the enormous distance between a DNP and a PhD or MD ... is actually a little insulting to them. The ones who get DNPs and go around calling themselves doctors are not dumb. They're just bad people.

It really is that simple.

 

[Dr. Rude]

Your bothsides-ism is getting the best of you again. I get that you try very hard to be openminded, and to understand other people.

But sometimes you miss the obvious truth of what other people are doing, and why they're doing it, in your efforts to explain away their actions in the most forgiving way.

Sometimes, the other side actually does have nefarious, selfish, dishonest, awful intent. Sometimes, the other side is actually behaving in an indefensible manner, for the purpose of self-enrichment, at the cost of endangering others. Sometimes, the other side is taking advantage of people who want to believe the best things about other people. People like you.

This is one of those times.


They are not dumb. They are not confused. They know that a DNP obtained while working full time isn't remotely comparable to a PhD in chemistry or another doctorate-level course of study. They know very well that a DNP is not anywhere near equivalent to a MD or DO.

To think they don't know these things, that they are stupid enough to not realize the enormous distance between a DNP and a PhD or MD ... is actually a little insulting to them. The ones who get DNPs and go around calling themselves doctors are not dumb. They're just bad people.

It really is that simple.

ASA should take this post and send it out to every legislator in every state where medical title misappropriation is an issue.

 

[epidural man]

Your bothsides-ism is getting the best of you again. I get that you try very hard to be openminded, and to understand other people.

But sometimes you miss the obvious truth of what other people are doing, and why they're doing it, in your efforts to explain away their actions in the most forgiving way.

Sometimes, the other side actually does have nefarious, selfish, dishonest, awful intent. Sometimes, the other side is actually behaving in an indefensible manner, for the purpose of self-enrichment, at the cost of endangering others. Sometimes, the other side is taking advantage of people who want to believe the best things about other people. People like you.

This is one of those times.


They are not dumb. They are not confused. They know that a DNP obtained while working full time isn't remotely comparable to a PhD in chemistry or another doctorate-level course of study. They know very well that a DNP is not anywhere near equivalent to a MD or DO.

To think they don't know these things, that they are stupid enough to not realize the enormous distance between a DNP and a PhD or MD ... is actually a little insulting to them. The ones who get DNPs and go around calling themselves doctors are not dumb. They're just bad people.

It really is that simple.

DNP = bad people....got it.

 

[Dr. Rude]

DNP = bad people....got it.

No. DNP who try to deceive the medical community and the public to think that DNP=MD are bad people.

 

[epidural man]

Sometimes, the other side actually does have nefarious, selfish, dishonest, awful intent. Sometimes, the other side is actually behaving in an indefensible manner, for the purpose of self-enrichment, at the cost of endangering others. Sometimes, the other side is taking advantage of people who want to believe the best things about other people.

So true.

But we should wait to see the evidence that they are being nefarious before we judge them as so. I'm just not sure a nurse who has a doctorate has awful intent because they are upset the state has said they can't legally recognize their degree in front of patients.

 

[epidural man]

No. DNP who try to deceive the medical community and the public to think that DNP=MD are bad people.

100% agree. Deceit and dishonesty are a horrible things. That is why I originally said that if nurses want to call themselves by certain titles, they need to come up with plan to make it crystal clear that they are distinguishable from a physician.

But that isn't what @pgg said. He said they are all bad people....all DNPs (that want recognition for the work they did to obtain the degree).

 

[pgg]

DNP = bad people....got it.

But that isn't what @pgg said. He said they are all bad people....all DNPs.

Christ, man, what the hell. Read my post again. Here, I'll even quote the relevant bit for you again, so you don't even have to scroll up:

The ones who get DNPs and go around calling themselves doctors are not dumb. They're just bad people.

Lots of CRNAs get DNPs for other reasons
- they may feel obligated to do so, to ensure future jobs or improve their marketability
- they may want to learn something new
- they may see it as the pinnacle of their profession, and want to achieve it
These are all fine reasons, even commendable.

CRNAs can get the DNP for those reasons, and not lie to patients by introducing themselves as doctors.


DNPs who introduce themselves as doctors are bad people.

 

[epidural man]

DNPs who introduce themselves as doctors are bad people.

Why? They ARE doctors. They are doctors of Nursing. They are bad for saying this?
NO responable PERSON is arguing that - despite the myriad of posts above trying to scream out that fact.

 

[pgg]

Why? They ARE doctors. They are doctors of Nursing. They are bad for saying this?
NO responable PERSON is arguing that - despite the myriad of posts above trying to scream out that fact.

C'mon. You can't honestly sit there and tell me that a nurse with a DNP who introduces himself or herself as a doctor, isn't trying to deceive people who have the very reasonable expectation that "Dr. ______" is a physician.

I'm beginning to wonder if your earnest statements about understanding both sides are just a weird form of virtue signaling, because you're not actually very good at listening to what other people say.

 

[epidural man]

Oh boy this is ridiculous....why am I arguing for a position I don't even agree with?

I don't disagree with most of you - but the way you guys are so quick to judge is astounding.

I just find it a little strange that the state says you can't call yourself a doctor - when you have earned that title (but again...I get the spirit behind the law.) That was one of my original points - and I could see why someone who worked hard for that title would be upset that the LAW said you couldn't even say that.

Plus, the way you all dismiss ALL DNP degrees, as if they are all simple and easy and the curriculum of EVERY SINGLE PROGRAM is exactly the same - is another very strange thing to me.

 

[epidural man]

C'mon. You can't honestly sit there and tell me that a nurse with a DNP who introduces himself or herself as a doctor, isn't trying to deceive people who have the very reasonable expectation that "Dr. ______" is a physician.

I'm beginning to wonder if your earnest statements about understanding both sides are just a weird form of virtue signaling, because you're not actually very good at listening to what other people say.

Most people understand the NP stands for nurse. The person in the article had NP very prominently displayed. I don't buy this idea that everyone that calls themself doctor is trying to be dishonest. Maybe like you said, I am very naive.

 

[EMhawkeye]

Why? They ARE doctors. They are doctors of Nursing. They are bad for saying this?
NO responable PERSON is arguing that - despite the myriad of posts above trying to scream out that fact.

I also expect to see the janitor with a doctorate of sanitation engineering getting called dr in the hospital and wearing a full length lab coat.

 

[epidural man]

because you're not actually very good at listening to what other people say.

Maybe. I think I'm actually pretty good at listening to what people ACTUALLY say - but maybe miss what they are TRYING to say.

 

[EMhawkeye]

Most people understand the NP stands for nurse. The person in the article had NP very prominently displayed. I don't buy this idea that everyone that calls themself doctor is trying to be dishonest. Maybe like you said, I am very naive.

Seriously? You think patients are that discerning. You know how many patients call their primary care or urgent care provider doctor not knowing their actual credentials? They see lab coat/ scrubs and rx pad and think physician.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Maybe. I think I'm actually pretty good at listening to what people ACTUALLY say - but maybe miss what they are TRYING to say.

Did you actually read the California law in question?

The only time you run a foul of it is if it's obvious you're using it to try and pass yourself off as a physician or surgeon.

These nurses can call themselves doctor to their hearts content, they just have to be very clear that they're not using it to try and claim or make people think they're physicians or surgeons.

A PhD college professor is not going to get in trouble by calling himself, doctor and his classroom.

An optometrist in his office is not going to get in trouble, as long as it's made clear that he's an optometrist.

 

[epidural man]

Did you actually read the California law in question?

The only time you run a foul of it is if it's obvious you're using it to try and pass yourself off as a physician or surgeon.

These nurses can call themselves doctor to their hearts content, they just have to be very clear that they're not using it to try and claim or make people think they're physicians or surgeons.

A PhD college professor is not going to get in trouble by calling himself, doctor and his classroom.

An optometrist in his office is not going to get in trouble, as long as it's made clear that he's an optometrist.

No, I didn't read it....just the article. Sounds like a great law by the way you describe it.

So I take back all my statements.

 

[Gern Blansten]

This is the 2 year curriculum that you can do completely on line over a 2 year period. Look for anything in there that will make them better at their job of taking care of patients. Much of it has to do with planning for and doing their "DNP Project." I have seen many of these projects that they feel justifies a doctorate. One of them was preparing a twenty minute talk explaining the Bezold-Jarisch reflex. That was literally it. It was as if they prepared for and delivered half of a grand rounds talk and called it a day. If you look at the curriculum above, that is almost half of the total "units" devoted to the project. Three more are for teaching advocacy. Three more for teaching them about financial management. Three more for informatics (I envision this being similar to an Epic orientation). Three more to teach about collaboration. Three more to discuss leadership and QI. Not exactly a rigorous program.
The real culprits in all of this are the leaders years ago who instituted the mandate that all programs had to be DNP granting programs. This has led to a watered down flooding of the market of "doctors" that the healthcare system has no idea what to do with. All health professions including allied health are following suit so that we now have doctors in physical therapy and many others.
The people who signed up to earn these doctoral degrees feel cheated if they do not get to be addressed as doctor and they are trying to lay the foundation for the future when the waters will be so muddy, no one will know how to unring that bell. I believe that the ones who have gained that degree really have convinced themselves that it is equivalent and that they are justified in calling themselves doctor in the healthcare setting. To believe otherwise would force them to understand that they have an extra $100-$200K in debt for no reason other than to line the pockets of the greedy nursing academic programs out there who are fleecing nurses for these on-line degrees. If they believe that they are worthy degrees, they want the honorary name to go along with it. If they do not believe they are worthy degrees, then they must reconcile the fact that they have fallen prey to an exploitive system set up by their previous leaders and their trusted academic enterprises. It is an "emperor has no clothes" type of scenario. Neither option is attractive for the nurse with a DNP and their money is already spent, so they double down and defend it to the bitter end. To do otherwise, would be to admit their foolishness. In that sense, I understand why they do it. On the other side, I agree with PGG that the vast majority who defend the entire setup and claim equivalency really are bad people who have self-serving motives. They do not care who they deceive as long as they achieve their goals. It is so blatant that they do not even attempt to hide it any longer.

 

[Iso4ane]

Most people understand the NP stands for nurse.

I though NP stood for 'Not Physician'.

 

[Gern Blansten]

No, I didn't read it....just the article. Sounds like a great law by the way you describe it.

So I take back all my statements.