Dare you to reply!

[Chartreuse Wombat]

If I were a member, I would write a strong letter of disapproval that will go quickly into the trash, since there rarely is people pushing back on this stuff. I get the sense that the reality is that the vast majority are fatigued of this, but are too busy / worried about other things to say anything. A concerted effort by many would probably at least get their attention.

Finally pulled the plug on ASTRO. Just too much mission creep.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[medgator]

Finally pulled the plug on ASTRO. Just too much mission creep.

If it isn't the mission creep, it's the fact they don't DGAF about you/actively work against your interests (for those of us out in community practice).

Didn't renew in 2020, joined ACRO and never looked back. Keep hoping a critical mass leaving our main organization will bring about change and self-reflection from within, but based on SK's recent posts and SoMe behavior that ain't happening any time soon

 

[CaesarRO]

Can we make an interactive scoreboard with live numbers of actively paying members at ACRO vs ASTRO.

Would be fun to watch the numbers change in realtime as I sit on a slow clinic day

(Actually been a relatively busy season for me lately)

 

[NotMattSpraker]

Can we make an interactive scoreboard with live numbers of actively paying members at ACRO vs ASTRO.

Would be fun to watch the numbers change in realtime as I sit on a slow clinic day

(Actually been a relatively busy season for me lately)

It would be very interesting to know because presumably the only way they will care to change actions is if the numbers start to hurt.

Based on personal convos, I suspect there are a fair number of people that are members because it's institutional money and/or "I just always have paid, that's what youre supposed to do".

I continue to be very surprised at their behavior this year and that people support them.

 

[Neuronix]

As Bill Ackman puts eloquently, DEI is a hate cult.

I think that's too strong.

It's identity politics: "a tendency for people of a particular religion, ethnic group, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics."

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

I think that's too strong.

It's identity politics: "a tendency for people of a particular religion, ethnic group, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics."

Agree that hate cult is too strong but the fundamental problem is that identity politics has taken over higher education.

Dr Gay has a mediocre scholarly record and demonstrably plagiarized on multiple occasions, yet she was picked to lead Harvard University.

One of the most insightful pieces I have read on this topic (and I have read quite a few) is from Tyler Harper in The Atlantic (attached).

 

[temujim]

Agree that hate cult is too strong but the fundamental problem is that identity politics has taken over higher education.

Dr Gay has a mediocre scholarly record and demonstrably plagiarized on multiple occasions, yet she was picked to lead Harvard University.

One of the most insightful pieces I have read on this topic (and I have read quite a few) is from Tyler Harper in The Atlantic (attached).

Only problem with this piece's narrative is the NY Post contacted Harvard back in October, before the congressional testimony and rufo etc, with examples of plagiarism. Might have cleaned it up back then with some stealth edits and kept it more hush hush.

 

[communitydoc13]

Dr Gay has a mediocre scholarly record and demonstrably plagiarized on multiple occasions, yet she was picked to lead Harvard University.

Dr. Hahn had a mediocre scholarly record and a demonstrably poor clinical safety record, yet he was picked to be CME of MDACC and the head of the FDA.

…pretty typical

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Only problem with this piece's narrative is the NY Post contacted Harvard back in October, before the congressional testimony and rufo etc, with examples of plagiarism. Might have cleaned it up back then with some stealth edits and kept it more hush hush.

The Harvard Corporation (perfect name for the Investment Fund that offers degrees) is so self unaware that they hired a high price law firm that threatened to sue NY Post instead.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

Dr. Hahn had a mediocre scholarly record and a demonstrably poor clinical safety record, yet he was picked to be CME of MDACC and the head of the FDA.

…pretty typical

I don't think you can define Steve Hahn's scholarly record as mediocre. His h-index is 70 with more than 250 publications.

 

[NotMattSpraker]

The Harvard Corporation (perfect name for the Investment Fund that offers degrees) is so self unaware that they hired a high price law firm that threatened to sue NY Post instead.

Ha. I had not heard this before a week or two ago, The Harvard Corperation.

When I saw that, it was the nail in the coffin for my optimism about academics in medicine and other applied sciences. It seems like a silly thing but it was so on the nose for me. Thanks for the article share.

It's interesting we are so fired up about plagiarism in an era when we all seem to agree that the quality of most scientific work is in the toilet. If people want to steal paragraphs about counting individuals by race or gender, have at it! You all have fun.

I would love if like... US proton investigators plagerized trial designs from our European colleagues. That would be siiiick. Why cant we have that.

Happy Friday everyone, I wish you a weekend filled with relaxation and original thoughts.

 

[communitydoc13]

I don't think you can define Steve Hahn's scholarly record as mediocre. His h-index is 70 with more than 250 publications.

This is an interesting point. I’m serious when I ask «how did Steve Hahn intellectually move Radonc forward ».

H index scales remarkably with discipline. Your average Radonc associate professor has an h index over 20 while your top classics scholar ever might have an h-index of 12.

I personally know faculty that I would consider marginal ethically and intellectually with h-indexes over 80. One of the laziest profs I know (roughly Hahn’s age) has an h-index in the same ballpark as his but has likely not independently written a paper for well over 20 years and only a few ever (collaboration baby).

None of which actually meaningfully qualifies one for leadership regardless.

I’m not saying Gay was a academic star, I’m saying most of us have remarkably little skin in that particular game and the job almost certainly matters close to none regarding the level of scholarship done at Harvard (which will always be comparatively good).

We have much more skin in our particular field, which disproportionately values a small number of academic leaders, very few of whom are actually intellectual drivers of change and most of whom are fabulous at networking where it counts.

 

[A_DeMichele]

Hahn always worked on the margins of oncology science (PDT for meso, etc). He is a white man tho!!

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Warms my heart to see they're putting that $750/year membership fee to good use.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

This is an interesting point. I’m serious when I ask «how did Steve Hahn intellectually move Radonc forward ».

H index scales remarkably with discipline. Your average Radonc associate professor has an h index over 20 while your top classics scholar ever might have an h-index of 12.

I personally know faculty that I would consider marginal ethically and intellectually with h-indexes over 80. One of the laziest profs I know (roughly Hahn’s age) has an h-index in the same ballpark as his but has likely not independently written a paper for well over 20 years and only a few ever (collaboration baby).

None of which actually meaningfully qualifies one for leadership regardless.

I’m not saying Gay was a academic star, I’m saying most of us have remarkably little skin in that particular game and the job almost certainly matters close to none regarding the level of scholarship done at Harvard (which will always be comparatively good).

We have much more skin in our particular field, which disproportionately values a small number of academic leaders, very few of whom are actually intellectual drivers of change and most of whom are fabulous at networking where it counts.

I agree that h-index is imperfect and a high h-index doesn't guarantee good management skills.

Leadership is a different skill set than publishing papers.

I have been critical of Dr Hahn's (lack of) leadership while at the FDA on this board.

My problem in the Gay affair (can I write that?) is that the institution and Dr Gay herself dug in and claimed that they stood by her exceptional scholarship.

She has 11 publications and no books. In general a book (at least) is required for appointment as an associate professor in non-medical specialties.

A simple comparison with presidents of other high profile universities indicate that Dr Gay's record is mediocre. Google the last few presidents of Harvard or even Sally Kornbluth, President of MIT after a career at Duke who was also present at the Congressional hearing on anti-semitism on campus.

This undermines scholarship and makes it easy for critics of higher education.

I am with Jonathan Haidt and many others that higher education has decided to pursue social justice (whatever that means) over the pursuit of truth.

As a liberal arts major I am saddened by what is happening in higher education

 

[RickyScott]

There is some profound hate among certain dei elements ie antisemitism and this-

https://x.com/eyeslasho/status/1743338533509898471?s=46&t=bNjInwwyz2DPnd4UFJOtbg

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Bread and circuses to distract from the bigger issues, imo.

Love it, hate it. Divide and conquer (ie consolidate)

 

[communitydoc13]

I am saddened by what is happening in higher education

What's happening?

Is there an awesome alternative plan. Is the UF model better? Is Hillsdale better than Harvard? Are all those "classical liberals" right?...that things were figured out 150 years ago and Aristotle basically had it down...including his take on women, which in general prevailed in western societies well into the 20th century. Is the rest just "post-modern confusion"?

How do you pursue truth in the liberal arts at all?

Have you checked out Columbia's Core? It's not that far removed from decades ago. A bit more diverse, a bit more global. The school has a much more diverse student body...and is a f&#k lot harder to get into.

What is there to be sad about?

It is a bit sad to me that liberal arts are not nearly as valued as they were. My local state school (solid but not exceptional) has largely turned into a STEM school and a pre-professional school. Very few liberal arts majors....still, people complain about wokism on campus.

 

[medgator]

What's happening?

Is there an awesome alternative plan. Is the UF model better? Is Hillsdale better than Harvard? Are all those "classical liberals" right?...that things were figured out 150 years ago and Aristotle basically had it down...including his take on women, which in general prevailed in western societies well into the 20th century. Is the rest just "post-modern confusion"?

How do you pursue truth in the liberal arts at all?

Have you checked out Columbia's Core? It's not that far removed from decades ago. A bit more diverse, a bit more global. The school has a much more diverse student body...and is a f&#k lot harder to get into.

What is there to be sad about?

It is a bit sad to me that liberal arts are not nearly as valued as they were. My local state school (solid but not exceptional) has largely turned into a STEM school and a pre-professional school. Very few liberal arts majors....still, people complain about wokism on campus.

Not sure which is the biggest joke at this point, leadership in higher ed in FL or leadership at the FL surgeon general post

 

[deleted1111261]

What’s happening in higher ed is exciting!

Modernizing, focusing on core competencies, discontinuing low-value services.

WVU, an example, is banking on educating its citizens in high utility, higher earning type degrees. Situation is dire there. You get an English degree and $100k in debt with only jobs available in an office .. that hurts the state.

This is the perfect storm right now for effective change.

Where will the Parikh kids go? Not to one of these joker places with 3:1 administrator to faculty ratio.

Minerva would be amazing!

The #1 Most Innovative University in the World

WURI Report 2022 & 2023 | (World's Universities with Real Impact)

www.minerva.edu

 

[RadOncMegatron]

What's happening?

Is there an awesome alternative plan. Is the UF model better? Is Hillsdale better than Harvard? Are all those "classical liberals" right?...that things were figured out 150 years ago and Aristotle basically had it down...including his take on women, which in general prevailed in western societies well into the 20th century. Is the rest just "post-modern confusion"?

How do you pursue truth in the liberal arts at all?

Have you checked out Columbia's Core? It's not that far removed from decades ago. A bit more diverse, a bit more global. The school has a much more diverse student body...and is a f&#k lot harder to get into.

What is there to be sad about?

It is a bit sad to me that liberal arts are not nearly as valued as they were. My local state school (solid but not exceptional) has largely turned into a STEM school and a pre-professional school. Very few liberal arts majors....still, people complain about wokism on campus.

In my old age I am beginning to greatly appreciate the liberal arts. True, there is not much money in it so it’s not worth the degree economically speaking, but I believe if college had a true liberal arts education for all than wokism would not exist as it is right now. It’s no accident Aristotle is being invoked over 2000 years later. Sad, this part of education now happens mostly outside of school (well for me anyway).

 

[RickyScott]

What's happening?

Is there an awesome alternative plan. Is the UF model better? Is Hillsdale better than Harvard? Are all those "classical liberals" right?...that things were figured out 150 years ago and Aristotle basically had it down...including his take on women, which in general prevailed in western societies well into the 20th century. Is the rest just "post-modern confusion"?

How do you pursue truth in the liberal arts at all?

Have you checked out Columbia's Core? It's not that far removed from decades ago. A bit more diverse, a bit more global. The school has a much more diverse student body...and is a f&#k lot harder to get into.

What is there to be sad about?

It is a bit sad to me that liberal arts are not nearly as valued as they were. My local state school (solid but not exceptional) has largely turned into a STEM school and a pre-professional school. Very few liberal arts majors....still, people complain about wokism on campus.

Problem is the woke ideology and loyalty oaths that are prequisite for advancement and hiring based soley on ideology. Even on Astro Jobsite, if you apply for a job as radonc in uc system, you must formulate a dei statement and take a loyalty oath. Berkeley rejects over half of faculty applicants becausr their dei statements are not sufficiently ideologically pure . This is not far off from the mcarthy and mao. Pc was around in the 90s but no one with Gays pathetic academic record would have been granted tenure. Then there is the hate. This sicko delivered Astros presidential lecture:

“Europeans are simply a different breed of human. They are socialized to be aggressive people. They are taught to live by the credo, "survival of the fittest." They are raised to be racist.
Caucasians make up only 10 percent of the world's population and that small percentage of people have recessive genes. Therefore they're facing extinction.
Whites have tried to level the playing field with the AIDS virus and cloning, but they know these deterrents will only get them so far. This is where the murder, psychological brainwashing and deception comes into play.”


-kendi (formerly Ibrahim Roger)

Living with the White Race

I have to set the record straight. Even though I oppose many European practices, I do not hate them. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have this burning sensation of white hate inside my soul that is driving me to seek knowledge about my history, my present and my future.As a matter of fact, too m

www.thefamuanonline.com

 

[deleted1111261]

In my old age I am beginning to greatly appreciate the liberal arts. True, there is not much money in it so it’s not worth the degree economically speaking, but I believe if college had a true liberal arts education for all than wokism would not exist as it is right now. It’s no accident Aristotle is being invoked over 2000 years later. Sad, this part of education now happens mostly outside of school (well for me anyway).

This is also true

I wish true liberal / classic education existed at the elite schools.

We used to have real public intellectuals

I’d rather my kid go to a service academy than an Ivy (in its current iteration).

 

[MidwestRadOnc]

Problem is the woke ideology and loyalty oaths that are prequisite for advancement and hiring based soley on ideology. Even on Astro Jobsite, if you apply for a job as radonc in uc system, you must formulate a dei statement and take a loyalty oath. Berkeley rejects over half of faculty applicants becausr their dei statements are not sufficiently ideologically pure . This is not far off from the mcarthy and mao. Pc was around in the 90s but no one with gays pathetic academic record would have been granted tenure. Then there is the hate. This sicko delivered Astros presidential lecture:

“Europeans are simply a different breed of human. They are socialized to be aggressive people. They are taught to live by the credo, "survival of the fittest." They are raised to be racist.
Caucasians make up only 10 percent of the world's population and that small percentage of people have recessive genes. Therefore they're facing extinction.
Whites have tried to level the playing field with the AIDS virus and cloning, but they know these deterrents will only get them so far. This is where the murder, psychological brainwashing and deception comes into play.”


-kendi (formerly Ibrahim Roger)

Living with the White Race

I have to set the record straight. Even though I oppose many European practices, I do not hate them. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have this burning sensation of white hate inside my soul that is driving me to seek knowledge about my history, my present and my future.As a matter of fact, too m

www.thefamuanonline.com

Yeah, the whole "it's ok to hate whites, asians, jews, and whoever else we think is unfairly successful" thing needs to go away. Not only that it's ok to openly hate and mock them, but you have to make them apologize too. I would not be surprised if those job applications soon will require those groups to recite a catechism of their unfair systemic advantage and how they are going to atone for it.

Indians are by far the most financially successful racial group in America (followed by Filipinos). The hateful ideology is based in no fact.

 

[MidwestRadOnc]

Is there an awesome alternative plan. Is the UF model better?

We Can't Wait for Universities to Fix Themselves. So We're Starting a New One.

I left my post as president of St. John’s College in Annapolis to build a university in Austin dedicated to the fearless pursuit of truth.

www.thefp.com

How do you pursue truth in the liberal arts at all?

Encouraging diversity of opinion seems like it would be a good start. When a single acceptable sociopolitical narrative is crammed down from above truth becomes problematic if it's not part of that package.

From the above:

Nearly a quarter of American academics in the social sciences or humanities endorse ousting a colleague for having a wrong opinion about hot-button issues such as immigration or gender differences. Over a third of conservative academics and PhD students say they had been threatened with disciplinary action for their views. Four out of five American PhD students are willing to discriminate against right-leaning scholars, according to a report by the Center for the Study of Partisanship and Ideology.

 

[communitydoc13]

Encouraging diversity of opinion seems like it would be a good start. When a single acceptable sociopolitical narrative is crammed down from above truth becomes problematic if it's not part of that package.

Is this happening? I don't know. It is true that there is a dearth of conservative faculty members at the university level in the US. A conservative might say that was self selection or a "natural" disparity. As a liberal, I'm not so sure.

What I do know is that when I went to college (early 1990s) a single prep school in my hometown (not a NE prep school like Andover, just a very well established, fairly conservative and well moneyed day school) sent ~15/100 graduating students to Princeton. So I am confident that the narrative of a lost "meritocracy" is just another example of the imaginary past.

I also know that the main priming text for my intro to philosophy class was CS Lewis' "The Abolition of Man"; a good text and essentially the opposite of a "woke" or "critical theory" text. This is still taught all over, including famously liberal places.

If you are an elite student and the Ivys are not to your taste, there are at least 30 other absolutely outstanding (many more, just thinking of brand name places off the top of my head) institutions that you can go to that are culturally a bit different, including Notre Dame and Baylor and the University of Virginia and Vanderbilt and UChicago and the Service Academies.

And if you are obsessed with the Ivy league, let's see why that is? It undoubtedly got there through conservative cultural standing and has undoubtedly expanded its influence through corporatist behavior, not anything else. The Ivys are almost certainly no better on average than other prestige institutions in the US at providing an undergraduate education. What they are better at is cultivating (or preserving) a brand.

Many of them set records or near records for early admissions applications this year...angry donors be damned.

I think what you are witnessing is a diversity of opinion.

 

[deleted1111261]

The fact that DEI took over almost the entirety of higher education makes it seem like viewpoint diversity is lacking.

I think the ideology is self selecting if you have to write these statements - you stand no chance if you take a nuanced approach. And look at this Astro conference - if you have a principled stand against DEI, you wouldn’t be able to moderate a session.

UChicago is a wonderful institution, agree. CalTech is another.

 

[MidwestRadOnc]

Is this happening? I don't know. It is true that there is a dearth of conservative faculty members at the university level in the US. A conservative might say that was self selection or a "natural" disparity. As a liberal, I'm not so sure.

I think what you are witnessing is a diversity of opinion.

Well there's a 195 page study linked in my post above that may provide some insight.
My family member is an academic (non-medical, public institution). They have required DEI training sessions and modules and have to sign statements similar to the above. It gets more intense every year. This stuff is definitely happening and it came about rapidly. I could ask her to see what happens if she protests or submits an essay with on opposing statement, or even worse encourages critical discussion and debate of DEI with students. I suspect she would be fired, but I could be wrong.

Edit: Yes, absolutely agree re: the brand name of the school. Some are better than others. Harvard took its prestigious brand and threw it in the trash because the DEI stronghold on it somehow translated to defending genocidal demonstrations.

 

[Chartreuse Wombat]

What's happening?

Is there an awesome alternative plan. Is the UF model better? Is Hillsdale better than Harvard? Are all those "classical liberals" right?...that things were figured out 150 years ago and Aristotle basically had it down...including his take on women, which in general prevailed in western societies well into the 20th century. Is the rest just "post-modern confusion"?

How do you pursue truth in the liberal arts at all?

Have you checked out Columbia's Core? It's not that far removed from decades ago. A bit more diverse, a bit more global. The school has a much more diverse student body...and is a f&#k lot harder to get into.

What is there to be sad about?

It is a bit sad to me that liberal arts are not nearly as valued as they were. My local state school (solid but not exceptional) has largely turned into a STEM school and a pre-professional school. Very few liberal arts majors....still, people complain about wokism on campus.

What's happening is that higher ed has become illiberal. Speech codes, loyalty oaths, hecklers veto, etc. As Jonathan Haidt has stated they have decided to pursue social justice instead of truth.

Lukianoff and Haidt made the case in "The Coddling of the American Mind".

Young people should expect higher education to challenge their existing beliefs. It is not "violence" for a speaker to argue an alternative viewpoint.

 

[RickyScott]

Jonathan Haidt on how dei breeds hate:

Why Antisemitism Sprouted So Quickly on Campus

Chapter 3 of The Coddling explains how the oppressor/victim mindset created fertile ground for hate

www.afterbabel.com

 

[Neuronix]

This sicko delivered Astros presidential lecture:

“Europeans are simply a different breed of human. They are socialized to be aggressive people. They are taught to live by the credo, "survival of the fittest." They are raised to be racist.
Caucasians make up only 10 percent of the world's population and that small percentage of people have recessive genes. Therefore they're facing extinction.
Whites have tried to level the playing field with the AIDS virus and cloning, but they know these deterrents will only get them so far. This is where the murder, psychological brainwashing and deception comes into play.”


-kendi (formerly Ibrahim Roger)

Living with the White Race

I have to set the record straight. Even though I oppose many European practices, I do not hate them. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have this burning sensation of white hate inside my soul that is driving me to seek knowledge about my history, my present and my future.As a matter of fact, too m

www.thefamuanonline.com

Wow! Is this real? Is there anything mitigating this?

I try to avoid bringing in fringe people, ideas, or groups into a discussion to make progress. You can always marginalize the other side as "crazy" by pointing to its most extreme elements, and it's not productive.

But, that's extreme writing from someone who is being promoted in the mainstream discussion on race.

For example, Whites are "levelling the playing field" with the AIDS virus and cloning? What does that even mean? It's hateful and untrue to call whites a "different breed of human" to begin with, accusing whites of murder, psychological brainwashing, and deception, but the rest of the paragraph just literally doesn't make sense.

So not only is that a statement of hate against Caucasians, but the rest of the statement is just crazy and non-sensicial.

And he was invited to give a presidential symposium at ASTRO 2020? Wow. Our professional society really has gone off the deep end. I'm sorry I didn't see it before.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Wow! Is this real? Is there anything mitigating this?

I try to avoid bringing in fringe people, ideas, or groups into a discussion to make progress. You can always marginalize the other side as "crazy" by pointing to its most extreme elements, and it's not productive.

But, that's extreme writing from someone who is being promoted in the mainstream discussion on race.

For example, Whites are "levelling the playing field" with the AIDS virus and cloning? What does that even mean? It's hateful and untrue to call whites a "different breed of human" to begin with, accusing whites of murder, psychological brainwashing, and deception, but the rest of the paragraph just literally doesn't make sense.

So not only is that a statement of hate against Caucasians, but the rest of the statement is just crazy and non-sensicial.

And he was invited to give a presidential symposium at ASTRO 2020? Wow. Our professional society really has gone off the deep end. I'm sorry I didn't see it before.

"Nevertheless, other than not wanting hate to be the weed that stunts my intellectual growth, I don’t hate white folk because I’m a Christian. How can you hate a group of people for being who they are? Similarly, how can you hate a turtle because it won’t keep up? That would be like parents hating their children because they are different. All of our children aren’t the same. Europeans are completely different from Asians who are completely different from Hispanics and so on and so forth

Europeans are simply a different breed of human. They are socialized to be aggressive people. They are taught to live by the credo, “survival of the fittest.” They are raised to be racist.

Caucasians make up only 10 percent of the world’s population and that small percentage of people have recessive genes. Therefore they’re facing extinction. Whites have tried to level the playing field with the AIDS virus and cloning, but they know these deterrents will only get them so far. This is where the murder, psychological brainwashing and deception comes into play."

As a philosophical aside, I'm never sure how to reconcile these statements. The first statement means he believes in a non-physical soul with free will that ultimately drives the words and actions of an individual while the latter two imply the roles of nurture and nature. If nothing else, he has remained consistently inconsistent.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

It strikes me that both sides of the political spectrum in this country are having repeated “dog catches car” moments and finding out that the reality of catching the car absolutely sucks, leading to more anger and resentment.

 

[communitydoc13]

Living with the White Race

I have to set the record straight. Even though I oppose many European practices, I do not hate them. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have this burning sensation of white hate inside my soul that is driving me to seek knowledge about my history, my present and my future.As a matter of fact, too m

www.thefamuanonline.com

For anyone interested in the complete essay, written at age 21. I’ll let you judge whether this essay, written at that time, makes Kendi someone forever disqualified to have a public role. Try to contextualize to many of our present public figures.

Clearly, Kendi was subject to conspiratorial thinking and a poor understanding regarding science at that time.

I do believe many of us are becoming vulnerable to conspiratorial thinking.

Where is the RFK Jr outrage!

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Living with the White Race

I have to set the record straight. Even though I oppose many European practices, I do not hate them. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have this burning sensation of white hate inside my soul that is driving me to seek knowledge about my history, my present and my future.As a matter of fact, too m

www.thefamuanonline.com

For anyone interested in the complete essay, written at age 21. I’ll let you judge whether this essay, written at that time, makes Kendi someone forever disqualified to have a public role. Try to contextualize to many of our present public figures.

Clearly, Kendi was subject to conspiratorial thinking and a poor understanding regarding science at that time.

I do believe many of us are becoming vulnerable to conspiratorial thinking.

Where is the RFK Jr outrage!

You should read some of the stuff the (current) Speaker of the House wrote 10 years ago!

Again, dog catches car.

 

[RickyScott]

Living with the White Race

I have to set the record straight. Even though I oppose many European practices, I do not hate them. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have this burning sensation of white hate inside my soul that is driving me to seek knowledge about my history, my present and my future.As a matter of fact, too m

www.thefamuanonline.com

For anyone interested in the complete essay, written at age 21. I’ll let you judge whether this essay, written at that time, makes Kendi someone forever disqualified to have a public role. Try to contextualize to many of our present public figures.

Clearly, Kendi was subject to conspiratorial thinking and a poor understanding regarding science at that time.

I do believe many of us are becoming vulnerable to conspiratorial thinking.

Where is the RFK Jr outrage!

A lot of people may make bizarre offhanded remarks (and yes I would have an issue if someone like Marjorie Taylor Green was the presidential speaker). This bat-sht crazy hate, however, is Kendis carefully considered conclusion after 4 years of intense academic study in his area of expertise- race. I think if someone said the same thing about another group, they absolutely could not live it down without an intense effort at apology. the hate is a real part of DEI.

 

[deleted1111261]

Living with the White Race

I have to set the record straight. Even though I oppose many European practices, I do not hate them. Contrary to popular belief, I don't have this burning sensation of white hate inside my soul that is driving me to seek knowledge about my history, my present and my future.As a matter of fact, too m

www.thefamuanonline.com

For anyone interested in the complete essay, written at age 21. I’ll let you judge whether this essay, written at that time, makes Kendi someone forever disqualified to have a public role. Try to contextualize to many of our present public figures.

Clearly, Kendi was subject to conspiratorial thinking and a poor understanding regarding science at that time.

I do believe many of us are becoming vulnerable to conspiratorial thinking.

Where is the RFK Jr outrage!

I don't think is like misunderstanding the premise of mRNA vaccines or confusion about PTV vs CTV.

This is fundamental humanity issues ... if my kids said something like this at the age of 15, they'd be asked to go pick their switch.

(from their white mom)

 

[NotMattSpraker]

I don't think is like misunderstanding the premise of mRNA vaccines or confusion about PTV vs CTV.

This is fundamental humanity issues ... if my kids said something like this at the age of 15, they'd be asked to go pick their switch.

(from their white mom)

Honestly, I just cant believe he found out about the recessive genes, we have kept that secret for so long.

 

[communitydoc13]

This is fundamental humanity issues ... if my kids said something like this at the age of 15, they'd be asked to go pick their switch.

Good...just let's get this straight.

Kendi states like 5 times in the essay that he does not hate white people and gives several reasons for this.

He also states his stereotypes about white people, and the stereotypes are wrong, as they always are. It's not like he couldn't find data if he wanted to (not about cloning or recessive genes or AIDS ). But, he could find data about white's opinions on race, about slavery, Jim Crow, lending practices and law enforcement practices.

The important thing...the very pro DEI thing...is that whatever data he found would not justify his stereotype. This is not a data driven thing, this is based on a presupposition...namely, that regardless of group identity, the value of the individual is uniform. I'll stick to this presupposition in the face of data any day.

Likewise, whatever data you find is not going to justify your stereotypes about any other group.

It is farcical that valuing DEI is itself viewed as the big nidus of hate. Even Haidt is subject to lazy thinking on this. He knows full well that most people just feel a certain way, that this is incredibly complicated and contextual, and that they then find a cognitive framework to support those feelings. If there is hate, it was always there. Every time I look at a distillation of DEI values, I like them.

So what is the problem? Well Kendi was not very cognizant of his bias here and people think he's gotten off easier than a person from other demographics would who expounded on their biases. People think that the DEI movement is protecting biased people who have historically not been protected. I think they are correct. I also think that this is so far down the list of critical issues presently that the emphasis on it in our discussions and the media is very telling.

While I don't relate to Amy Chua's premise about the cultural foundations of success (I'll take kindness over success any day), I do relate to her premise that group loyalty outweighs other considerations. This group loyalty is so, so strong, and is what mandates at times initiatives to work against it, particularly when disparities are big.

It is clear that we have different group loyalties on this board...that is good.

DEI initiatives need some revisions. But, DEI is not causing antisemitism or anti-white sentiment, and high achieving "woke" college kids who are advocating for a particular group are not necessarily "coddled minds". They probably know a little bit about history, statistics, disparities and their friend's personal narratives. They can also say stupid things.

Make sure that Elon gets that switch as well.

Wikipedia was utilized as a reference here...but nothing was lifted directly.

 

[deleted1111261]

Good...just let's get this straight.

Kendi states like 5 times in the essay that he does not hate white people and gives several reasons for this.

He also states his stereotypes about white people, and the stereotypes are wrong, as they always are. It's not like he couldn't find data if he wanted to (not about cloning or recessive genes or AIDS ). But, he could find data about white's opinions on race, about slavery, Jim Crow, lending practices and law enforcement practices.

The important thing...the very pro DEI thing...is that whatever data he found would not justify his stereotype. This is not a data driven thing, this is based on a presupposition...namely, that regardless of group identity, the value of the individual is uniform. I'll stick to this presupposition in the face of data any day.

Likewise, whatever data you find is not going to justify your stereotypes about any other group.

It is farcical that valuing DEI is itself viewed as the big nidus of hate. Even Haidt is subject to lazy thinking on this. He knows full well that most people just feel a certain way, that this is incredibly complicated and contextual, and that they then find a cognitive framework to support those feelings. If there is hate, it was always there. Every time I look at a distillation of DEI values, I like them.

So what is the problem? Well Kendi was not very cognizant of his bias here and people think he's gotten off easier than a person from other demographics would who expounded on their biases. People think that the DEI movement is protecting biased people who have historically not been protected. I think they are correct. I also think that this is so far down the list of critical issues presently that the emphasis on it in our discussions and the media is very telling.

While I don't relate to Amy Chua's premise about the cultural foundations of success (I'll take kindness over success any day), I do relate to her premise that group loyalty outweighs other considerations. This group loyalty is so, so strong, and is what mandates at times initiatives to work against it, particularly when disparities are big.

It is clear that we have different group loyalties on this board...that is good.

DEI initiatives need some revisions. But, DEI is not causing antisemitism or anti-white sentiment, and high achieving "woke" college kids who are advocating for a particular group are not necessarily "coddled minds". They probably know a little bit about history, statistics, disparities and their friend's personal narratives. They can also say stupid things.

Make sure that Elon gets that switch as well.

Wikipedia was utilized as a reference here...but nothing was lifted directly.

Well said. Hate was always there. It’s not the DEI movement’s fault, any more than then faulting DARPA for internet porn. It’s just a vehicle to hate behind a disguise of inclusivity. And this is what Trump did, created a vehicle for people to hate.

If I thought white people created AIDS to kill people of color, I would hate them. But this is conspiratorial, that the collective white community did anything of the sort.

Redlining? Hell yah, that was created by some white people. Tuskegee? Yah. Many other things, yes. But, he loses credibility when he expands so profoundly. It is no better than all Black people do this, all Indian people are cheap and work Dunkin Donuts, etc.

Elon needs to pick many switches. No less harmful than the words Kendi says. Much worse, probably.

 

[Neuronix]

Blaming white people for X problem is not better than stereotyping any other race for Y problem.

If some people made bad decisions, you blame them.

The idea of "white people" or "white race" in general is racist and crazy. It completely neglects that "Caucasians" (a dumb term also) have a tremendous amount of diversity by way of culture and country of origin as well as time in this country.

Then to say that Hispanics are somehow better in that crazy rant... White Hispanics have essentially the same genetics as white non-hispanics. It doesn't make any sense.

Meanwhile, we're totally neglecting mixed races, which many of us are. So do they hate the white half of my children?

This whole discussion is crazy.

Yes I am "white" or "Caucasian" or whatever. I grew up severely disadvantaged and was homeless for a few years. I have lived in mostly "minority" communities (first black/AA, later Hispanic) most of my life. I'm in a biracial marriage. Yes, I'm a little sick of being excluded from grade school programs (only for women or "minorities"), talks, committees, admissions, hiring decisions, etc my whole life because I look like a white man. What happens when I'm the minority race for most of my life? Doesn't count, obviously. But hey, I did ok. I just work harder than everyone else and make myself stand out that much more.

I am glad for my own personal gain that some people do recognize the diversity I bring to the table. I was almost passed up AGAIN for an important committee ("we need more diversity...") recently till I brought up my disadvantaged status, and fortunately something more than the color of my skin or my genitals counted as diversity. This is wrong in my opinion that only certain types of diversity matter, while others are excluded. But it's not something I talk about publicly, because it's not a debate that I'm ever going to win and can only hurt me to go against the establishment on this.

 

[MidwestRadOnc]

If you ever find yourself reflexively defending Henry Rogers, then you might want to take a moment and introspect as to how you got to that point. It is overwhelmingly clear that the man believes that there is such a thing as the "white race" and he hates them. This is racism by definition. His solution to this cognitive dissonance is to redefine what racism is. It is projection. Clearly. It was and remains sophomoric.

To start with, let me first clarify that I don't hate white people. Now that we've got that out of the way, let me spend the next 25 years and millons of words explaining how much I hate white people and want to penalize them for their skin color and monetize this toxic prejudice in the process.

But he said he didn't hate white people! See, it says it right there!

If you fall for this, I am worried you are on a slippery slope to falling for much more insane ideas that are trying to become mainstream. Don't be a victim of mass psychosis.

 

[communitydoc13]

Don't be a victim of mass psychosis.

Oh fer f&3ks sake.

If you can't figure out what the real threats to society are, what the substrate is for something akin to fascism... I can't help you.

It's not DEI.

It's that "gleeful majoritarian sentiment" that allows for bullying, discrimination, scapegoating, militarism, a sense of victimhood in the context of relative wealth and the denial of basic truths (like the loss of an election or WWI).

Kendi is extremely small potatoes.

 

[deleted1111261]

Oh fer f&3ks sake.

If you can't figure out what the real threats to society are, what the substrate is for something akin to fascism... I can't help you.

It's not DEI.

It's that "gleeful majoritarian sentiment" that allows for bullying, discrimination, scapegoating, militarism, a sense of victimhood in the context of relative wealth and the denial of basic truths (like the loss of an election or WWI).

Kendi is extremely small potatoes.

Do you think if someone spoke the way he did about anyone other than white people he would be invited to give keynotes at major academic meetings?

You mentioned that there appears to be a different standard for non-white people, but these words, to me, if you subbed out any race (or kept white) is the definition of racism.

He was literally invited to our national meeting to speak. We barely allow centrist views to engage, much less anyone on the equivalent to Kendi on the right. There were complaints that went ignored. Many of us knew of his vitriol.

The fact that we and many are continuing to talk about him reveals the influence he has had in a certain segment of society. Are their bigger issues? Yeah - inflation, housing costs, disparities in educational outcomes, geopolitical horror, considerations about AI - but that doesn't mean these smaller issues don't warrant a discussion.

If Kendi speaks this way, no one from ASTRO bats an eye, there is zero consequence - then who's next? What sort of evil should be expect for our next meetings? Sameer is rather liberal and appears to be deep into DEI. I see more of the same.

 

[Neuronix]

Do you think if someone spoke the way he did about anyone other than white people he would be invited to give keynotes at major academic meetings?

No.

Why is it acceptable to be racist against white people?

Why is it acceptable to be racist against anyone?

You mentioned that there appears to be a different standard for non-white people, but these words, to me, if you subbed out any race (or kept white) is the definition of racism.

 

[RickyScott]

Well said. Hate was always there. It’s not the DEI movement’s fault, any more than then faulting DARPA for internet porn. It’s just a vehicle to hate behind a disguise of inclusivity. And this is what Trump did, created a vehicle for people to hate.

If I thought white people created AIDS to kill people of color, I would hate them. But this is conspiratorial, that the collective white community did anything of the sort.

Redlining? Hell yah, that was created by some white people. Tuskegee? Yah. Many other things, yes. But, he loses credibility when he expands so profoundly. It is no better than all Black people do this, all Indian people are cheap and work Dunkin Donuts, etc.

Elon needs to pick many switches. No less harmful than the words Kendi says. Much worse, probably.

Just to clarify, there is a big difference between valuing diversity and inclusion vs the “DEI movement”. I value democracy but not the Democratic Republic of Korea. Freedom,equality and liberty was followed by Robespierre.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

DEI is not the cause of hate, or racial/cultural animus (however you'd like to put it). Rather, it suggests, essentially, that these things are inescapable. In turn, rather than offering solutions to fix these things, it proposes how we live with them and ultimately seems to be suggesting we resegregate.

 

[MidwestRadOnc]

Oh fer f&3ks sake.

If you can't figure out what the real threats to society are, what the substrate is for something akin to fascism... I can't help you.

It's not DEI.

It's that "gleeful majoritarian sentiment" that allows for bullying, discrimination, scapegoating, militarism, a sense of victimhood in the context of relative wealth and the denial of basic truths (like the loss of an election or WWI).

Kendi is extremely small potatoes.

You don't get to define what sociopolitical issues should be most important to everyone. If you think DEI is small potatoes, that's fine. I, and clearly many others, see it as a big deal. If you are more worried about orange man coming back and sending his political opponents to the gulags, I mean I guess that's fine. I'm not too worried about it, but we should be free to openly talk about either concern without censorship or fear of losing our jobs.

 

[RadOncMegatron]

You don't get to define what sociopolitical issues should be most important to everyone. If you think DEI is small potatoes, that's fine. I, and clearly many others, see it as a big deal. If you are more worried about orange man coming back and sending his political opponents to the gulags, I mean I guess that's fine. I'm not too worried about it, but we should be free to openly talk about either concern without censorship or fear of losing our jobs.

It is no longer feasible to believe DEI is small potatoes in my opinion. I am not surprised, but saddended to see this topic is still going strong and even worse in 2024 than when this thread started in 2017.

 

[MidwestRadOnc]

No.

Why is it acceptable to be racist against white people?

Why is it acceptable to be racist against anyone?

Exactly. Imagine if the calls for the eradication of the Jews at Harvard "From the (Jordan) River to the (Mediterranean) Sea" were directed at any other group. E.g., from the (Atlantic) Ocean-to-the- (Pacific) Ocean, America shall be free (of <insert whatever non-white group you want here>).

This is the result of this segregating philosophy: Overt antisemitism because it perversely identifies Jews as white oppressors who became inequitably financially successful.

It's a re-iteration of Marxism, an old stupid idea: You are not in control of your destiny. From birth, you have been pigeon-holed into an oppressed class over things that you cannot control (your skin color, your IQ, your height/strength/genetics, your degree of masculinity, etc). You cannot use your mind and your willpower to succeed. The only solution is top-down active control to ensure equitable outcomes. "The only solution to past discrimination is current discrimination." The few at the top become very wealthy and powerful. Everyone else dies quite equally in abject poverty and suffering. Is DEI as bad as communism in the USSR and Maoist China? Of course not, but the basic tenets are still there leaving it a divisive and evil message. Nothing good can come of it.

There were definitely times in history where it was true that you were basically screwed from birth. In fact, this was most of history. Being born into a serventile/serf class in basically any society in history. America was unique in that it was founded on different principles and quickly (in the context of the timeline of human civilization) evolved to eradicate the old world concepts of only letting certain types of people have the freedom of upward mobility. It's ironic that its history is focused on as so awful. Immigrant groups of all skin colors have come here for many generations at this point and consistently demonstrated the possibility of this potential for upward movement. To tell young people in modern day America that they are screwed from birth because of things they can't control is a lie. The message that it's hopeless to even try so you need to rely on the government to fix it for you. This is a negative, depressing message. Not everybody is smart enough to go to medical school. Some people don't win the birth lottery in intelligence. Not everybody is born with the eyesight to become a fighter pilot (I certainly wasn't). It doesn't mean you can't become successful doing something else. You can. This is a positive message. The one we should be sending. DEI is the opposite of this.