CPME’s turn

[dtrack22]

CPME (our accrediting body) got in on the fun with a letter of their own.

Once again, a professional organization makes complete fools of themselves, addressing SDN posts (that 90% of the profession has no idea about) giving even more visibility to the things said on these forums.

Keep in mind The Council that makes up CPME includes the Dean of Samuel Merritt, Dr. Eric Stamps, DPM. He runs the school that has an average APMLE part I score of 69%. And yet somehow still has accreditation and no loss of seats despite the fact that they struggle to get 1/3 of their students to pass part one of the podiatry licensing examination. And people want to take the USMLE… 🤡

Maybe Dr. Stamps could join us and explain how the Council justifies approving 600+ seats at the various schools, when his school is failing so miserably? On their page of the AACPM website they proudly note that: “91% of the last five graduating classes found employment in their field within 6 months after completion of their residency”

CSPM Facts

So 10% of their graduates don’t even get a job within 6 months of finishing residency. Well worth the estimated $90k per year in tuition and living expenses…

The worst part about all of this is that CPME is the one organization would could actually make the biggest difference in our profession. Instead, they whine about SDN and continue to line the pockets of the various Pod schools with student tuition $. Pathetic.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Pronation]

When CPME says we should work together to create solutions are they talking about solutions such as Formula 3 and Penlac?

Serious responses only please, otherwise I will be forced to publicly denounce your post.

 

[Redsting]

69%... That's better than ABFAS. They are just prepping them for what's ahead, like any good school should do.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

motivates lower performing schools to invest in resources for their students to achieve better outcome.

cant make chicken salad out of chicken ***t

with these low stat admissions and the fact you're trying to graduate "doctors"... can only water down the academics so much

as stated before... we just need less people in the field

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Deleted my posts and getting off SDN for a while because I doubt anything will change. Appreciate all the people who truly care about advancement of the profession and the students. You know who you are.

 

[Sweatshirt]

The meme thread was 24 hours ahead of you

 

[Adam Smasher]

They say inflammatory postings on social media and message boards. Are they referring to anything other than SDN? Are people trashing CPME on twitter/fb/ig/tiktok?

If yes I want in on the fun.

 

[PalpablePulse]

Keep in mind Dr Keith Cook is ABFAS certified. And is a residency director of what is presumably a surgical program in New Jersey.

Dr Cook also heads up the CPME.

Dr Cook is also responsible.

Would like to hear his thoughts on how CPME is helping to advance the profession by lax monitoring and approval of lax program standards, not to mention new podiatry schools.

 

[Feli]

Keep in mind Dr Keith Cook is ABFAS certified. And is a residency director of what is presumably a surgical program in New Jersey.

Dr Cook also heads up the CPME.

Dr Cook is also responsible.

Would like to hear his thoughts on how CPME is helping to advance the profession by lax monitoring and approval of lax program standards, not to mention new podiatry schools.

He is probably a solid doc.^
An alumni of my program who is generally well liked/respected is on CPME right now too. Others are on committees.
Many alumni of my program have done past residency site visits, re-accreditation recs, MAV analysis, CPME document recs, etc.
I would have been interested in doing, and might still be... if I ever got ABFAS cert, lol.
It's noble work... but it's not an ideal world.

The people are not necessarily the enemy. The system is broken. Follow the money.

...the function/mission/etc of the CPME organization, and others like it, is doomed from the onset:

It is a conflict of interests by nature... if the CPME or AACPM, etc etc put pod schools, residencies, etc on probation, then their committee will shrink. Their funding will shrink. Their overlords will replace them with yes-men who will not make recommendations to close/reduce... only to open/expand. Also, they are all under the APMA (which feels that more podiatry students, practicing docs, schools, etc = more due$ and influence and visibility). It is all corrupt AF. We are headed the way of chiro: tremendous over-saturation and all of the problems that come with that. Maybe podiatry will have another school in Seattle or Kansas City or something by 2030... who knows. And yeah, that's JMO*.

*(and the shared opinion of probably 80% of the practicing DPMs trying to scrape by in an increasingly saturated practice environment)

 

[PalpablePulse]

He is probably a solid doc.^
An alumni of my program who is generally well liked/respected is on CPME right now too.
Many alumni of my program have done past residency site visits, re-accreditation recs, MAV analysis, CPME document recs, etc.
I would have been interested in doing, and might still be... if I ever got ABFAS cert, lol.
It's noble work... but it's not an ideal world.

The people are not necessarily the enemy. The system is broken.

...the function/mission/etc of the CPME organization, and others like it, is doomed from the onset, though:

It is a conflict of interests by nature... if the CPME or AACPM, etc etc put pod schools, residencies, etc on probation, then their committee will shrink. Their funding will shrink. Their overlords will replace them with yes-men who will not make recommendations to close/reduce... only to open/expand. Also, they are all under the APMA (which feels that more podiatry students, practicing, schools, etc = more due$ and influence). It is all corrupt AF. Maybe will have another school in Seattle or Kansas City or something by 2030... who knows. And yeah, that's JMO*.

*(and the shared opinion of probably 80% of the practicing DPMs trying to scrape in a saturated practice environment)

By that logic, doesn’t that essentially make those on the committee yes men already?

The only statement they’ve put regarding anything was one regarding SDN posts.

 

[newfeet]

Keep in mind Dr Keith Cook is ABFAS certified. And is a residency director of what is presumably a surgical program in New Jersey.

Dr Cook also heads up the CPME.

Dr Cook is also responsible.

Would like to hear his thoughts on how CPME is helping to advance the profession by lax monitoring and approval of lax program standards, not to mention new podiatry schools.

He is probably a solid doc.^
An alumni of my program who is generally well liked/respected is on CPME right now too.
Many alumni of my program have done past residency site visits, re-accreditation recs, MAV analysis, CPME document recs, etc.
I would have been interested in doing, and might still be... if I ever got ABFAS cert, lol.
It's noble work... but it's not an ideal world.

The people are not necessarily the enemy. The system is broken.

...the function/mission/etc of the CPME organization, and others like it, is doomed from the onset, though:

It is a conflict of interests by nature... if the CPME or AACPM, etc etc put pod schools, residencies, etc on probation, then their committee will shrink. Their funding will shrink. Their overlords will replace them with yes-men who will not make recommendations to close/reduce... only to open/expand. Also, they are all under the APMA (which feels that more podiatry students, practicing docs, schools, etc = more due$ and influence and visibility). It is all corrupt AF. We are headed the way of chiro: tremendous over-saturation and all of the problems that come with that. Maybe podiatry will have another school in Seattle or Kansas City or something by 2030... who knows. And yeah, that's JMO*.

*(and the shared opinion of probably 80% of the practicing DPMs trying to scrape by in an increasingly saturated practice environment)

I liked him when I rotated there. Residents and attendings were great.

 

[PalpablePulse]

You can be a nice guy, good surgeon, great husband, good father and still be part of the problem and worthy of ridicule and criticism.

He quite literally heads up the organization that rubber stamps schools approvals. Doesn’t matter if he runs a good program, him and everyone else who chose to sit on that illustrious council deserves every ounce of criticism and ridicule. And same with their overlords.

 

[heybrother]

I think @Feli is probably hitting a lot of high points. CPME, if they came here to represent themself, would likely simply say that they are providing accreditation and evaluation based on feedback and consultation with a myriad of other organizations.

We'd say - MAVs are too low.
They'd say - that was the value every one agreed to.

We'd say - the new school shouldn't exist and no new residencies are going to be created.
They'd say - we don't do existence, we do accreditation based on guidelines. Generating residencies isn't a schools jobs.

Forget whose job is it - how can there be no central planning and coordination. Should we all simply have just been blaming APMA all along?

The "problem" for the profession is that the kind of things that are necessary to truly make podiatrists better would in general shut down most of the schools and most of the residencies. I'm personally of the opinion that nothing scares students away like the low academic standards required to get into podiatry school. The current MCAT average of 494 or whatever is 26% percentile on the MCAT. Strong students have to see that and think - WTF is up with these podiatry schools. CPME likely simply mandates that the MCAT be required, not that any sort of score be achieved.

This is what I sort of alluded to the other day - when CPME evaluated my residency I thought we should be on the path to closure. We were of course re-accredited. My faculty lied to the CPME staff and told them they'd add new rotations and then cancelled them a few months later. I was the only person to partake in them. So - should I feel gratitude to CPME that my path out of residency was unhindered? Or sad that future people will walk the same steps. Everyone up and down the chain just wants the party to go on. Until people are willing to share in suffering there will be no end to it.

 

[dtrack22]

Should we all simply have just been blaming APMA all along?

APMA is a lobbying organization. That’s it. They have no authority, power, etc over our education, training, scope, etc.

CPME actually could do something about all of this. They can put moratorium on new school openings, they can reduce class sizes, they can close residency programs. They are to blame if you want to blame anybody.

 

[Feli]

APMA is a lobbying organization. That’s it. They have no authority, power, etc over our education, training, scope, etc.

CPME actually could do something about all of this. They can put moratorium on new school openings, they can reduce class sizes, they can close residency programs. They are to blame if you want to blame anybody.

ALLLLL of the money goes to the APMA, it goes through them. Student dues, resident, attendings, etc due$$$. The "we just lobby" is a smokescreen.
A lobbying organization and its component parts can't fund all of that travel and banquets and terrible journals and meetings that nobody would buy if they were not basically forced to do so.
That is why the ~2015 ACFAS requirement to lift mandatory APMA member$hip was such a shakeup and so divisive. Kudos to them. That was a step to put a few cracks into the iron-clad podiatry monopoly and opened the door for reform.

Why do we think the APMA address is on the CPME website, emails, docs, etc? CPME didn't just happen to rent in the same building as APMA.
The AACPM, CPME, APMSA, CASPR, state components, etc are not profitable. They are all funded with APMA memberships and other revenue monies, which are substantial. Look at the APMA BOD and all of the staff on their website... dozens and dozens of docs and some attorneys, various other ppl. All for lobbying? Cmon.

...and yes, the CPME could do something about too many pod schools, bad residencies peristing, etc... but APMA can block or overrule or replace them. The rabbit hole is a lot deeper than many ppl realize. The sooner we quit reciting APMA-faithful LCR talking points regarding new schools or board certs and start knowing the actual structure of the $ flow charts, the more we know.

 

[newfeet]

ALLLLL of the money goes to the APMA. Student dues, resident, attendings, etc dues. The "we just lobby" is a smokescreen.
A lobbying organization and its component parts can't fund all of that travel and banquets and terrible journals and meetings that nobody would buy if they were not basically forced to do so.
That is why the ~2015 ACFAS requirement to lift mandatory APMA member$hip was such a shakeup and so divisive. Kudos to them. That was a step to put a few cracks into the iron-clad monopoly and open the door for reform.

Why do we think the APMA address is on the CPME website, docs, etc? CPME didn't happen to rent in the same building as APMA.
The AACPM, CPME, APMSA, CASPR, state components, etc are not profitable. They are all funded with APMA memberships and other revenue monies.

...and yes, the CPME could do something about too many pod schools, bad residencies peristing, etc... but APMA can block or overrule or replace them. The rabbit hole is a lot deeper than many ppl realize. The sooner we quit reciting APMA-faithful LCR talking points regarding new schools or board certs and start knowing the actual structure of the $, the more we know.

Luckily they created ASPS - American Society of Podiatric Surgeons… the alphabet soup never stops.

 

[Shiyuan]

ACPM recently stopped the mandatory APMA membership as well.

 

[newfeet]

ACPM recently stopped the mandatory APMA membership as well.

I thought they were going to vote it… did it go through. I’m dropping APMA like a hot potato after it’s official.

 

[Adam Smasher]

 

[newfeet]

View attachment 370821

It’s not officially on the website… but this is the email we got a few days ago.

 

[Shiyuan]

View attachment 370821

According to recent email APMA membership requirement stopped. Sounds like they havent updated the website yet.

 

[newfeet]

According to recent email APMA membership requirement stopped. Sounds like they havent updated the website yet.

Hate paying APMA/state dues. It’s beyond ridiculous. I should email them because I’m done with the APMA

 

[Shiyuan]

Hate paying APMA/state dues. It’s beyond ridiculous. I should email them because I’m done with the APMA

Same.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

According to recent email APMA membership requirement stopped. Sounds like they havent updated the website yet.

It’s a proposed bylaws change. Will be voted on by fellows this summer.

 

[newfeet]

It’s a proposed bylaws change. Will be voted on by fellows this summer.

It’s a digital vote right?

 

[Bored Snorlax]

1/3 of every class failing boards significantly affecting their residency chances and some may not even pass retakes.

These are the people responsible for this circus show, and allowing this to continue to happen:

Accreditation Committee Members | CPME

This makes me wish podiatry was under LCME. They would have taken care of business ages ago.

 

[air bud]

LOL there is a VA associated fellowship in western NY

 

[Pronation]

LOL there is a VA associated fellowship in western NY

Ah yes, this is definitely a total toenail replacement center of excellence.

 

[icebreaker32]

1/3 of every class failing boards significantly affecting their residency chances and some may not even pass retakes.

These are the people responsible for this circus show, and allowing this to continue to happen:

Accreditation Committee Members | CPME

This makes me wish podiatry was under LCME. They would have taken care of business ages ago.

We can not shrink ourselves into prosperity. We can not raise our admission standards for schools, our typical residency training or our job market.

There is unmet demand.....at mobile podiatry companies. We need increased visibility that we are the toenail masters. No one should be allowed to touch a toenail on any diabetic or anyone over 65 unless they have 7 or possibly 8 years of training. We need more schools and more fellowships to fulfill this mission!!

 

[Feli]

LOL there is a VA associated fellowship in western NY

Yeah, basically every fellowship on that approved list is laughable... I see perhaps one or two that could be considered (maybe), if a DPM did a terrifically bad residency (which is not uncommon) and was trying to recover somewhat from that. It's sad that so many DPMs are actually in that position.

Half of the ACFAS fellowships aren't too amazing either, though... esp if a DPM already did a good residency.

I think it's funny the recent things podiatry keeps promoting as normal and encouraged.
Each of these below basically prove we are saturated, and our training needs much improvement:

• fellowships after an already narrow specialty, which lead to no additional certification... yet they're in reasonable demand due to bad residencies and job market
• Associate PP salaries typically being a fraction of MD/DO salaries (closer to PA/NP), and attainable DPM hospital jobs seem more rare than 12 point bucks
• VA jobs for our specialty thought of as paying above average for DPM jobs and being fairly desired (while VA is typically a last resort for MD/DO grads)
• VAs with limited pathology and pt populations as DPM residency sponsor hospitals (0% of MD programs are sponsored by VAs... a few just have nearby university hospitals rotate a bit)
• very low pass rates at some DPM residency programs on ABFAS BQ, while other programs are basically 100% consistently
• 5year program, 6year program, etc in pod schools to help students finish an already expensive 4yr grad program
• new podiatry schools approved and touted as "high quality" and "integrated," yet no talk of closing any other seats or improving residencies - only hastily creating more residencies and seats

The red flags are all there. We are saturated and getting worse. That's too bad. That's your root cause analysis.
It'd be awesome if we could close some laggard DPM residencies, consolidate others, focus on getting our programs to teaching hospitals. Schools would have to follow suit. It'd create demand for DPM grads, for the skills. Student interest, board pass rates, increased income would improve with a more logical number of grads and seats.

However, it sure won't pay for these big organizations and committees to have less DPMs, it won't create dean and president and directors positions, so it won't happen. It won't happen, no matter how obvious the solution may be (or regardless of how many MD specialties have done reductions/freeze on residency spots with success in the past!). Why emulate ortho or ophtho or derm... when we can model chiro and pharma?

 

[icebreaker32]

Podiatry has many problems internally. Most would largely go away or self correct to an extent if we dealt with our number 1 problem…….saturation.

You want to know how bad it is. We have about 11,000 podiatrists. There are about 300 hundred jobs per year. Do the math. How many graduates are there? How many slots are there if the schools had more applicants? New schools are opening. How many fellows are there you need to add to residency graduates applying for jobs?. How many of those jobs are actually good? Existing podiatrists are also willing to leave a bad associate job and applying. How many new jobs will be created over the next decade? Only 200……if we are lucky. This includes the demand from all those diabetics and aging boomers. Want a job with real demand…..think PA. They will add 38,000 jobs. RN programs are trying find ways to reduce length of programs due to a severe shortage. Employers are so desperate for RNs they try to figure out ways to attract and retain……4 day work week, loan repayment, signing bonus etc. These are the facts not opinions. The only other healthcare profession I have heard have 100 applicants for a good job is pharmacy.

 

[Feli]

... RN programs are trying find ways to reduce length of programs due to a severe shortage. Employers are so desperate for RNs they try to figure out ways to attract and retain……4 day work week, loan repayment, signing bonus etc. These are the facts not opinions....

Facts fo show. ^

I was chatting with the DON at one hospital I go to. I asked him how the recruiting visit to the nearby nursing college went (he'd told me he was going to the career fair a week or two earlier). He replied me, "well, it went pretty good... gave out a few brochures. I told a couple of them about opportunities at this hospital for ICU, surgery, ER, whatever they want. The main problem is that there were about three dozen hospitals and facilities there at the career day... and only about a dozen nursing students showed up. I think a lot of them have probably already signed on somewhere."

...can you imagine that? A career day that comes to the job candidates featuring many hospitals, groups, companies, etc offering sign bonus, tuition reimburse, serious advancement opportunity to BSRN or MS or admin or CRNA or whatever, salary $60k-75k+ starting for about 3 years of school (basically debt : income of 1:1 ratio)? That's demand.

To put that in perspective, that'd be a podiatry career day with more $300k-$400k jobs (starting, fresh out of residency) than candidates, sign bonuses in high 5 or even 6 figures, tuition payback, job seeker's choice of locations and work type. That is actually not impossible when you look at MD surgeons... minor asterisk for DPMs due to the massive existing and upcoming saturation.

 

[Boba Foot]

1/3 of every class failing boards significantly affecting their residency chances and some may not even pass retakes.

These are the people responsible for this circus show, and allowing this to continue to happen:

Accreditation Committee Members | CPME

This makes me wish podiatry was under LCME. They would have taken care of business ages ago.

Schools really don’t care as long as butts are in seats and tuition is being paid.

 

[catladypoddoc]

APMA is a lobbying organization. That’s it. They have no authority, power, etc over our education, training, scope, etc.

CPME actually could do something about all of this. They can put moratorium on new school openings, they can reduce class sizes, they can close residency programs. They are to blame if you want to blame anybody.

Aren't there new requirements in place for the new school opening up? I thought they have to create a certain number of new residency slots in order to be accredited.

 

[DYK343]

Aren't there new requirements in place for the new school opening up? I thought they have to create a certain number of new residency slots in order to be accredited.

How many slots did western open up (something like 5) and how many did they graduate (something like 50) and still get accredited?

CPME is a joke. They refused to not accredite Western even though they did not meet requirements for accredidation. CPME decided it was best to spread the shortage across all the students at all the schools who didnt want to take a chance on a new school not getting accredited.

Also the residency slots they did open were just watered down slots. AKA taking a mediocre program and getting them to accept more residents making them even weaker programs.

Rinse repeat.

Now is the absolute worst time to matriculate into DPM school. There will almost certainly be a shortage of residency positions in 4 years.

CPME does not have my respect. Especially when they are letting it all happen again.

 

[icebreaker32]

Aren't there new requirements in place for the new school opening up? I thought they have to create a certain number of new residency slots in order to be accredited.

It was not enforced in the past when there was a residency shortage, so it certainly won’t be enforced now with a surplus. We need more quality and not quantity at the moment.

Now if/when enrollment increases again is anyone guess. If it does it will not be pretty for quality residency placement, fear of another potential shortage, not to mention the already bad job market being made worse with these new schools.

 

[Pronation]

Aren't there new requirements in place for the new school opening up? I thought they have to create a certain number of new residency slots in order to be accredited.

Who cares? This is going to make podiatry's already bad job market saturation absolutely horrendous (unless matriculation numbers continue to trend down).

 

[HardRoadPaved]

@catladypoddoc what does it matter how many resident spots there are when attrition is in the toilet and apmle scores are "69%?"

Opening schools without addressing current issues is just financial for the schools doing it. Mustache pods rejoice when labor maket continues to suppress starting salaries in a field with 2% projected growth.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Keep in mind Dr Keith Cook is ABFAS certified. And is a residency director of what is presumably a surgical program in New Jersey.

Dr Cook also heads up the CPME.

Dr Cook is also responsible.

Would like to hear his thoughts on how CPME is helping to advance the profession by lax monitoring and approval of lax program standards, not to mention new podiatry schools.

Agreed. This CPME accreditation committee is doing podiatry a disservice with these lax standards.

We're moving farther away from parity by them not enforcing their own policy.

If anyone on that committee has a backbone they should do what is right, not what is easy.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

what does it matter how many resident spots there are when attrition is in the toilet and apmle scores are "69%?"

For full transparency, in order to maintain its recognition by the US Secretary of Education, CPME must adhere to Federal Law - 34 CFR 602(B)

Federal Register :: Request Access

If a college is not meeting standards and CPME fails to take action, they’d be in violation of §602.20 for not enforcing the standards, see image.

If you feels this is the case, any member of the public can file a complaint against the Council via the 925 complaint process.

https://www.cpme.org/files/CPME/CPME%20925%20Complaint%20Procedures%20-%20October%202020.pdf

 

[JustAPedicurist]

For full transparency, in order to maintain its recognition by the US Secretary of Education, CPME must adhere to Federal Law - 34 CFR 602(B)

Federal Register :: Request Access

If a college is not meeting standards and CPME fails to take action, they’d be in violation of §602.20 for not enforcing the standards, see image.

If you feels this is the case, any member of the public can file a complaint against the Council via the 925 complaint process.

https://www.cpme.org/files/CPME/CPME%20925%20Complaint%20Procedures%20-%20October%202020.pdf

View attachment 371930

Is anyone actually going to do this? I mean someone should….

 

[Adam Smasher]

Is anyone actually going to do this?

That's totally memable

Top text "Our school is terrible "
Bottom text "Is anyone actually going to report us?"

 

[iridocyclitiss]

Is anyone actually going to do this? I mean someone should….

@Bored Snorlax was born ready for this

 

[Bored Snorlax]

@Bored Snorlax was born ready for this

Not this week. Got finals at temple so I won't be sleeping for the next couple days.

@dtrack22 can take this one.

Rest assured I will carry on for podiatry and read every word of the CPME bylaws during this summer.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Rest assured I will carry on for podiatry and read every word of the CPME bylaws during this summer.

Better yet do a research project. You could easily get published in JAPMA. I won't read it but I'll at least feel bad about not reading it.

 

[Bored Snorlax]

Better yet do a research project. You could easily get published in JAPMA. I won't read it but I'll at least feel bad about not reading it.

I have a topic in mind that would secure a JAPMA publication, but it requires shadowing VA attendings during odd hours.

From me to Philly this Friday:

 

[Creflo]

While I agree that there are too many podiatry schools and this creates over saturation, IMO the bigger problem for podiatry is reimbursements. It's a financial no-go for anyone entering podiatry school today who goes into debt to do so. Do the math of taking out student loans to attend school, then spend 3 more years in residency, then take a job. Take the paycheck, then pay taxes on that paycheck, then pay the student loan payment, see what you have left over, and you will quickly realize it is a bad deal.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

While I agree that there are too many podiatry schools and this creates over saturation, IMO the bigger problem for podiatry is reimbursements. It's a financial no-go for anyone entering podiatry school today who goes into debt to do so. Do the math of taking out student loans to attend school, then spend 3 more years in residency, then take a job. Take the paycheck, then pay taxes on that paycheck, then pay the student loan payment, see what you have left over, and you will quickly realize it is a bad deal.

Yep podiatry sucks

 

[Weirdy]

A kind reminder,

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Reports are screened by multiple moderators before being acted upon to ensure both content being reported, and the report itself, are actionable items.

Please do not harass the moderators by reporting a post or reply that you simply disagree with, but does not actually break TOS.

 

[Pronation]

Yep podiatry sucks

Good day sir,

I have a qualm and wish to challenge this claim. Back when I was a teenager, I saw a very attractive podiatrist (for a toenail issue, obviously) and after what I believed at that time to be a successful course of small talk outside of my serious medical condition, the only thing that happened during the encounter was a matrixectomy.