Columbia vs. UCSF vs. UCLA

[sfoksn]

Hey guys, I know that there has been so many discussions about school versus threads lately, but I think just like everyone's situation, my situation is unique as well.

So I thought I would ask you guys for your input in helping me decide which school to go to.

I primarily chose my schools based on how much I liked the school and how much I can imagine myself being happy there. Specialization rate or what not is not important for me at all, because those factors are completely dependent on the students' individual ambitions and determination to stay focused on specialization track.

Well, here we go..

UCSF:

Pro:
1. I live 15 minutes away from UCSF. I could live at home closer to my family.
2. Tuition is cheaper compared to Columbia. Received scholarship here.
3. Tremendously high reputation in medical-related fields.
4. Research oriented, and may easily pursue MS in various fields.
5. SF is awesome, and I know it like the back of my hand.
6. All my high school friends (most of my closest friends didn't even go to college) are there, rooting for me to come back.

Con:
1. No medically-incorporated curriculum.
2. Relatively low reputation in the eyes of patients (perhaps this is not the case for CA residents, but I am looking at the US public in general)
3. Perhaps less externship opportunities since not many med/dental schools are around in close proximity like NYC.
4. Staying close with my family and limiting my educational experience to west coast.

UCLA:

Pro:
1. Supposedly it has good reputation in dental field.
2. Systemic based curriculum, I like this approach.
3. I know the dental school and many of the faculties, and perhaps could maintain connection.
4. OMS track program is appealing. Not sure how much it will help compared to other schools, but definitely something to keep in mind.
5. Cheaper tuition.
6. No hassle about moving.
7. Many research options.

Con:
1. Again, limiting my experience to west coast.
2. I don't want to stay in UCLA for next 4 years... The school sucks (not about dental school, but the undergrad is just horrible).
3. Extremely diluted reputation in layman's perspective because of its undergraduate university.
4. No medically incorporated curriculum.

Columbia:

Pro:
1. Medically incorporated curriculum. I love this, because I feel that I will learn the most here preparing to enter OMS residency (fingers-crossed)
2. Great reputation overall, in dental field, medical field, or in layman's perspective.
3. Many research options and ability to get MS in the field I desire to study.
4. Funded DDS/MPH program. I am interested in public health sector in OMS..
5. Extremely friendly faculty that care a lot about my questions. The dean as well as academic dean are just so nice and thorough in answering my questions. They make me feel very welcome.
6. NYC. Always wanted to live here.
7. Many Korean students (international as well). Gotta love my culture.
8. High concentration of hospitals/medical/dental schools. Easy access to various externships, relatively speaking.
9. Very small pro, but coming from Korean background, we care so much about the school's name.. I don't even understand why.. My parents would love to say that their son is going to an ivy league school

Con:
1. Higher tuition.
2. Further away from family.
3. Apparently, UCSF trumps Columbia in term of medical school, I don't know if that's relevant or not.
4. Scholarships are non-existent.
5. Please add more to con list to alert me about things I am considering.


I am sure you noticed, but I don't really care about clinical exposure. Whether I go to the most clinical school or most non-clinical school, in a year or two in residency or private practice, we'll all reach the same level (according to people I interviewed).

I also do not care about tuition very much, because my ultimate goal in life is not about money and I know I will be able to pay them off eventually no matter where I go. Whether or not I pay 3200/mo for 10 yrs or 2700/mo for 10 yrs as my loan repayment, I can live without that 500 dollars.

I do, however, value medical incorporation in curriculum, should it become one of the distinguishing factors in following OMS paths as boards go P/F. It's just more interesting to be exposed to medical side, in my opinion.

I also care about research opportunities that are available at each school, because I want to work in the field of public health in the future.

Location has tremendous impact in where I spend next 4 years for me. If I can't be happy in that place, I won't be able to focus and study, and will fail

LA, SF, and NYC are few of the only places that I felt that I would be happy (although I haven't visited much of the midstates )

Anyways, please correct me if I have wrong information or would like to add more information or you would like to argue differently on some of the pros and cons I listed for each school.

I really appreciate all your input, and I wish you the best of luck in choosing your schools as well.

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[LaFleur]

If youre thinking of practicing in California, might be worth just staying in California (may be more networking opportunities?)

So first off I'd like to say that I'm not applying until the cycle after next, most likely, so I don't have any vested interest in your decision.

Anyway, I think that sobe55 makes a good point about networking opportunities if you're going to go to dental school in the area that you want to practice. For example, if you want to practice on the west coast but end up on the east coast for dental school, the guys on the west coast probably will have a leg up on you when it comes to finding an associateship or knowing about the job market, etc. Just something to consider. Then again, you want to go into OMFS, so maybe where you go to dental school would matter less in that case compared to where you do your specialization.


I know it's hard to make a decision, so maybe the best course of action would be to settle on a school from a purely rational standpoint and then if you have any gut/nagging feelings about it being the wrong school, you'll realize which one you're leaning towards. If you don't, then you have a decision you're happy with.

Anyway, I think that you should ultimately go where you think you'll be the happiest. I wish I could help you more, but it's your decision. Best of luck with the decision making process and congratulations on all your acceptances--it's pretty obvious how hard you've worked to get where you are. I'm sure you'll end up at the right school for you, and that you'll be happy wherever you go. Let us know what you decide!

 

[sfoksn]

BUMP and thanks for all your comments..

From UCLA proponents, could you list some of the positives that you see in UCLA? I just want to know if I am missing any aspects when considering UCLA

Thanks!

 

[LaFleur]

If I had to guess, I would think that people are generally voting for UCLA based on the pros that you already gave--the ones that would probably sway people the most are the fact that it'll be cheaper so you'll have less debt, that there's an OMS track and it's what you're interested, that you already know the faculty so it'll be easier to get opportunities for research and such, etc. UCLA and Columbia are both amazing schools. However, from what I can see based on how you wrote your pros and cons, I think that deep down you've already made your decision.

 

[Maygyver]

BUMP and thanks for all your comments..

From UCLA proponents, could you list some of the positives that you see in UCLA? I just want to know if I am missing any aspects when considering UCLA

Thanks!

I voted for Columbia, but I think either people are voting for UCLA because of weather or because they are on the UCSF (waitlist). I'm not really sure how, from your pros/cons, someone would suggest UCLA. It seems like for you, maybe UCSF would be best if you wanted to at least stay on the west coast where you are familiar. I think some of this depends on your end goal. What do you want to do? Stay on the west coast? Private practice? Research, etc.

For the record, I got into UCLA and Columbia and not UCSF, so I don't get any reward for you picking one school over another. It sounds like your gut says Columbia, but maybe UCSF might be a better fit. It all depends though. Sorry if I missed career plans somewhere in the thread, but if you could give more info we could maybe help some more.

 

[LaFleur]

I think either people are voting for UCLA because of weather or because they are on the UCSF (waitlist).

This is possible, but I didn't want to assume this would be the case. Though it is an internet forum, and people never cease to surprise me with what they will do to achieve their ends.

 

[Maygyver]

This is possible, but I didn't want to assume this would be the case. Though it is an internet forum, and people never cease to surprise me with what they will do to achieve their ends.

I figured I'd throw it out there since his pros/cons seems to disfavorable towards UCLA. I've seen it in the past too. Everyone does have their unique preferences though.

 

[snikkaz]

This is SDN and no one has made statements such as:

1.) "Go to the cheaper school, you'll thank me later."

2.) "Take that money you'll save and put it towards a house."

Anyways, good luck with your decision. Go where you'll be happy.

 

[John Durian]

I agree with Snikkaz. Go with UCSF and save some moolah! Less debt = more freedom later on...

 

[Mr Tooth Fairy]

This is SDN and no one has made statements such as:

1.) "Go to the cheaper school, you'll thank me later."

I beg to differ. See post #32.

 

[gigawatt]

You went to UCLA undergrad, so I really don't think anyone is going to be in a better position than you to offer any insight. A lot of people love Westwood and the student life at UCLA is usually one of the biggest draws. If after being there for four years, though, you just don't like it and can't wait to get out, then don't force yourself to reconsider just because the poll says so. You have two equally fantastic alternatives to choose from, and there's just no point in picking UCLA over those two if you're going to be miserable there (your UCLA pro/con list makes it sound like you would).

That said, I'm a little surprised that you're not giving UCSF more serious thought. It would help if you quantified it, but with a "substantial scholarship" UCSF would be probably near 100K cheaper than Columbia. Plus, you have friends and family there and know the area really well. It offers the culture you're looking for, as well as great research opportunities and a top-notch reputation in the medical community. I know Columbia's been a longtime dream for you, but based on the criteria you've listed it seems like UCSF has everything. I'm only saying you might want to give it a fair chance. On the other hand, if you just go with your dream and choose Columbia, I can't see you regretting that either.

Good luck! It's not going to be an easy choice.

BUMP and thanks for all your comments..

From UCLA proponents, could you list some of the positives that you see in UCLA? I just want to know if I am missing any aspects when considering UCLA

Thanks!

 

[camshaft]

If UCLA has an OMS track, and UCSF is $100k less, I'm not sure why it isn't coming down to those two.

 

[sfoksn]

If UCLA has an OMS track, and UCSF is $100k less, I'm not sure why it isn't coming down to those two.

Thanks for your reply. UCLA's OMS "track" sounds like a little bit more structured mentorship program according to some of the students who are in the program...

Columbia's medical didactic and its superb location... always attracted me towards that program. Columbia is just more well known in placing students into OMS field..

This is how I see it: UCSF, UCLA, Columbia all accept top students who are very smart. They all have great didactic programs that allow their students to do well on the boards... Why is it that UCSF only places 3-4 people into OMS and Columbia near 10, and UCLA somewhere in between?

I believe it has to do with the experience that each school offers...

 

[camshaft]

Thanks for your reply. UCLA's OMS "track" sounds like a little bit more structured mentorship program according to some of the students who are in the program...

Columbia's medical didactic and its superb location... always attracted me towards that program. Columbia is just more well known in placing students into OMS field..

This is how I see it: UCSF, UCLA, Columbia all accept top students who are very smart. They all have great didactic programs that allow their students to do well on the boards... Why is it that UCSF only places 3-4 people into OMS and Columbia near 10, and UCLA somewhere in between?

I believe it has to do with the experience that each school offers...

Oh don't get me wrong sfoksn, I think Columbia is awesome, but I think those numbers you quoted would be based on the students rather than what each school offers.

 

[sfoksn]

Oh don't get me wrong sfoksn, I think Columbia is awesome, but I think those numbers you quoted would be based on the students rather than what each school offers.

Haha, I know, I know. All three schools are really just as great in terms of dental school. It just depends on the perspectives of people.

I was just looking for an answer to why, even though all three schools accept very intelligent students (just as intelligent), but their students' post graduate plans differ. Columbia has been consistently producing large number of OMS over many years and UCLA has been producing orthos like crazy over many years. UCSF is just in the middle, shifting back and forth.

I was just wondering why this is.. It doesn't have to do much with schools' selective admission, because all three schools are selective and even if the school admits students with ambition in certain specialty, their ideas are bound to change all the time throughout dental school years.. So my guess is the environment and experience that schools provide... What's you take on this?

 

[amcmahon]

Haha, I know, I know. All three schools are really just as great in terms of dental school. It just depends on the perspectives of people.

I was just looking for an answer to why, even though all three schools accept very intelligent students (just as intelligent), but their students' post graduate plans differ. Columbia has been consistently producing large number of OMS over many years and UCLA has been producing orthos like crazy over many years. UCSF is just in the middle, shifting back and forth.

I was just wondering why this is.. It doesn't have to do much with schools' selective admission, because all three schools are selective and even if the school admits students with ambition in certain specialty, their ideas are bound to change all the time throughout dental school years.. So my guess is the environment and experience that schools provide... What's you take on this?

I think that is exactly it. Did you notice how many pediatric dentists Columbia puts out? I was really surprised by that but then the Dean kept chiming in about how awesome pediatrics is. I feel its essentially the mere exposure effect--the more you see it, the more you like it.

 

[Machiavelliansm]

have you decided yet sfoksn?

 

[babypapa]

have you decided yet sfoksn?

Same question, one of 27ers chose Harvard over UCLA. Just wonder how this case will be unfolded.

 

[sfoksn]

Still lingering between UCSF and Columbia. Withdrew from UCLA! I hope I made someone happy

 

[321931]

Thank you for your comments..

I still have not decided, I withdrew from UCLA, however, due to lack of any significant funding.

Update:

UCSF increased the amount of support that they will provide to me, to the point where I will only be in ~100k of debt over 4 years including interest and counting (hopefully) in the 5% increase in tuition every year (estimated from the tuition difference from the last year's estimate to this year's estimate).

This makes UCSF seem much more attractive.

UCSF is also P/F curriculum without H, which makes it much less stressful on my behalf, and also leaves more time to devote to research and community activities which I definitely want to get heavily involved with.

Leaning more towards UCSF now! But damn, I've been wanting to go to Columbia all throughout my undergraduate years!

CA school...100k? Wow. You are one lucky man.

 

[Machiavelliansm]

Thank you for your comments..

I still have not decided, I withdrew from UCLA, however, due to lack of any significant funding.

Update:

UCSF increased the amount of support that they will provide to me, to the point where I will only be in ~100k of debt over 4 years including interest and counting (hopefully) in the 5% increase in tuition every year (estimated from the tuition difference from the last year's estimate to this year's estimate).

This makes UCSF seem much more attractive.

UCSF is also P/F curriculum without H, which makes it much less stressful on my behalf, and also leaves more time to devote to research and community activities which I definitely want to get heavily involved with.

Leaning more towards UCSF now.. But damn, I've been wanting to go to Columbia all throughout my undergraduate years!

call me jealous if you want but i'm calling bull**** on this one lol.

 

[rickblas]

Thank you for your comments..

I still have not decided, I withdrew from UCLA, however, due to lack of any significant funding.

Update:

UCSF increased the amount of support that they will provide to me, to the point where I will only be in ~100k of debt over 4 years including interest and counting (hopefully) in the 5% increase in tuition every year (estimated from the tuition difference from the last year's estimate to this year's estimate).

This makes UCSF seem much more attractive.

UCSF is also P/F curriculum without H, which makes it much less stressful on my behalf, and also leaves more time to devote to research and community activities which I definitely want to get heavily involved with.

Leaning more towards UCSF now.. But damn, I've been wanting to go to Columbia all throughout my undergraduate years!

Has April 1st not passed (that's when schools can find out if you have multiple deposits?) ? Just a friendly reminder, but you should decide soon if you are holding multiple seats!

 

[dentalWorks]

Thank you for your comments..

I still have not decided, I withdrew from UCLA, however, due to lack of any significant funding.

Update:

UCSF increased the amount of support that they will provide to me, to the point where I will only be in ~100k of debt over 4 years including interest and counting (hopefully) in the 5% increase in tuition every year (estimated from the tuition difference from the last year's estimate to this year's estimate).

This makes UCSF seem much more attractive.

UCSF is also P/F curriculum without H, which makes it much less stressful on my behalf, and also leaves more time to devote to research and community activities which I definitely want to get heavily involved with.

Leaning more towards UCSF now.. But damn, I've been wanting to go to Columbia all throughout my undergraduate years!

wait a minute...aren't you gearing towards OMFS in the future? Perhaps a pass/fail system isn't the best route from this school as I imagine, they don't have a ranking system (right?)

since boards are going pass/fail, and you have no rank, how are residency programs going to evaluate you against... say someone who finished harvard or columbia (or any other school) and were within the top 5% of the class? You might wanna think about this, this whole pass/fail business of part 1 is going to change how residency programs value class ranks.

obviously everything I just mentioned is just me speculating, plz correct me if I was wrong.

 

[flapaTron]

wait a minute...aren't you gearing towards OMFS in the future? Perhaps a pass/fail system isn't the best route from this school as I imagine, they don't have a ranking system (right?)

it doesn't matter. even in schools that are P/F or H/P/F, there may exist an internal ranking system (e.g. Columbia).

since boards are going pass/fail, and you have no rank, how are residency programs going to evaluate you against... say someone who finished harvard or columbia (or any other school) and were within the top 5% of the class? You might wanna think about this, this whole pass/fail business of part 1 is going to change how residency programs value class ranks.

no, things will still be the same, just under a different exam. To objectively rank applicants (in all residencies) in a nominal fashion, a categorical exam must exist:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=727124
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=768261

my point: your choice of school should not be influenced by how you think it will help/hurt you in placing into residency, because it truly does not matter.

 

[rockclock]

columbia throwing any cash your way, man?

but i mean come onnnn, 100 large for ucsf...you gotta be ****ing kidding me. decision's been made homie

 

[Maygyver]

columbia throwing any cash your way, man?

but i mean come onnnn, 100 large for ucsf...you gotta be ****ing kidding me. decision's been made homie

Eloquent.

I would definitely pick UCSF though. It seems to fit in with what you want. It's a great research school and you are getting it for a great price.

 

[glo1984]

it doesn't matter. even in schools that are P/F or H/P/F, there may exist an internal ranking system (e.g. Columbia).



no, things will still be the same, just under a different exam. To objectively rank applicants (in all residencies) in a nominal fashion, a categorical exam must exist:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=727124
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=768261

my point: your choice of school should not be influenced by how you think it will help/hurt you in placing into residency, because it truly does not matter.

+1 and can't wait for this NBME...

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

I can't help but think this thread is a cry for attention.

 

[sfoksn]

CA school...100k? Wow. You are one lucky man.

Thank you Rainee. I do feel very lucky to be in this situation. I know that I can't go wrong with either choices, I just don't want to regret the decision that I make now.

Has April 1st not passed (that's when schools can find out if you have multiple deposits?) ? Just a friendly reminder, but you should decide soon if you are holding multiple seats!

Haha, yes, they both told me that I have until Apr. 20th to make the decision. Gotta put my thinking cap on!

I can't help but think this thread is a cry for attention.

I was just responding to Machiavellianism and babypapa when they asked if I had decided. I will remove the post if it's giving off that vibe.

 

[sfoksn]

wait a minute...aren't you gearing towards OMFS in the future? Perhaps a pass/fail system isn't the best route from this school as I imagine, they don't have a ranking system (right?)

since boards are going pass/fail, and you have no rank, how are residency programs going to evaluate you against... say someone who finished harvard or columbia (or any other school) and were within the top 5% of the class? You might wanna think about this, this whole pass/fail business of part 1 is going to change how residency programs value class ranks.

obviously everything I just mentioned is just me speculating, plz correct me if I was wrong.

Flapatron is right, Columbia ranks their student into thirds. I think that is very helpful.. But nonetheless, I feel that many OMS programs feel the same way about P/NP or H/P/NP because H is not standardized.

UCSF grads don't seem to have much problem in entering specialty programs, it's just that not as many of them want to pursue specialty programs, which I don't know why. I am thinking that it's because the amount of their debt is manageable as a GP?

More I talk different program directors and students pursuing OMS, more I think that the residency placement is based on your performance during a specific externship, letters of recommendation, connection of the faculties at your school with the directors of your desired program, etc. I believe doing well academically is a given for all the potential applicants.

 

[321931]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't UCSF have a MD/OMFS track? I would think that going to UCSF Dental and doing research/knowing professors would help get you into the UCSF OMFS track...

 

[Machiavelliansm]

Correct me if I'm wrong...but doesn't UCSF have a MD/OMFS track? I would think that going to UCSF Dental and doing research/knowing professors would help get you into the UCSF OMFS track...

so does UCLA and Columbia.

 

[babypapa]

Still lingering between UCSF and Columbia. Withdrew from UCLA! I hope I made someone happy

You dropped Havard first and then UCLA. Interesting, you've been making choices in a totally opposite way from what I had expected. Which school will be the next one failing to attract this brilliant young man? This is more fun than watching American Idol indeed,,,Behold, the final round is close to end, exciting! Does anybody have popcorn to share with me? I bet my five bucks on....uhm....uhm....man...this is so difficult.....uhm.....on UCSF. Anybody who might think otherwise?

 

[rockclock]

You dropped Havard first and then UCLA. Interesting, you've been making choices in a totally opposite way from what I had expected. Which school will be the next one failing to attract this brilliant young man? This is more fun than watching American Idol indeed,,,Behold, the final round is close to end, exciting! Does anybody have popcorn to share with me? I bet my five bucks on....uhm....uhm....man...this is so difficult.....uhm.....on UCSF. Anybody who might think otherwise?

seriously. my money's on columbia though. he's got that ivy-league lovestruck look in his eyes, i can feel it. enough to turn down ucsf for 100K which literally 99% of predents across the country would do unspeakable things for.

so what's good sfoksn? where you headed next year? don't leave us hanging...

 

[sfoksn]

seriously. my money's on columbia though. he's got that ivy-league lovestruck look in his eyes, i can feel it. enough to turn down ucsf for 100K which literally 99% of predents across the country would do unspeakable things for.

so what's good sfoksn? where you headed next year? don't leave us hanging...

Haha, if I was that determined about the name, I would've chosen Harvard. It's cheaper than Columbia as well.

I am not as concerned about money as I am concerned about the opportunity available at the school.. UCSF is great, but many of the researching faculties in OMFS field is leaving. Dr. Schmidt left to NYU, and another professor who is actually actively engaged in research is leaving after this year as well. That leaves only 1 professor who would be pursuing non-clinical research in OMFS department. I would love to get involved with clinical research, but I don't think that opportunity is readily available for undergrads like us

I've wanted to live in the NYC and Columbia would be great. But I'd definitely have to go through the military HPSP route if I were to go to Columbia.

It's not too bad though, 4 years of gaining military experience, having honor in serving your country, being paid decently well (after tax, your military income is comparable to a civilian GP associate making ~120k), seeing the world on a ship, going on humanitarian missions, and also having a great chance at entering specialty program after military (as many of the Texas and southern schools reserve spots for military applicants). On top of that, you will be debt free and actually will come out ~250k in bank saved up after counting in reasonable living cost.

UCSF is undergoing lots of changes due to budget deficit it seems, cutting many faculties/imposing mandatory furloughs and making everything more efficient. I predict the cost of attendance to rise over few years..

Anyways, the deadline is 30th! I hope to make decision by then

 

[flapaTron]

let me get this straight:

if you go to UCSF:
- you get a scholarship
- you ultimately pay less

if you go to Columbia:
- you don't get any scholarships
- you ultimately pay more
- you decide to join the military to make up the difference

and you basically get the same package at both.......

if you're end-goal is to become an OMS then why would you choose the option that you feel you would have to join the military, thereby side-tracking your ultimate goal (depending on your "repayment" terms)?

seems like an easy decision to me.

 

[dentalWorks]

Haha, if I was that determined about the name, I would've chosen Harvard. It's cheaper than Columbia as well.

I am not as concerned about money as I am concerned about the opportunity available at the school.. UCSF is great, but many of the researching faculties in OMFS field is leaving. Dr. Schmidt left to NYU, and another professor who is actually actively engaged in research is leaving after this year as well. That leaves only 1 professor who would be pursuing non-clinical research in OMFS department. I would love to get involved with clinical research, but I don't think that opportunity is readily available for undergrads like us

I've wanted to live in the NYC and Columbia would be great. But I'd definitely have to go through the military HPSP route if I were to go to Columbia.

It's not too bad though, 4 years of gaining military experience, having honor in serving your country, being paid decently well (after tax, your military income is comparable to a civilian GP associate making ~120k), seeing the world on a ship, going on humanitarian missions, and also having a great chance at entering specialty program after military (as many of the Texas and southern schools reserve spots for military applicants). On top of that, you will be debt free and actually will come out ~250k in bank saved up after counting in reasonable living cost.

UCSF is undergoing lots of changes due to budget deficit it seems, cutting many faculties/imposing mandatory furloughs and making everything more efficient. I predict the cost of attendance to rise over few years..

Anyways, the deadline is 30th! I hope to make decision by then

According to this:
http://www.aaoms.org/docs/residency/program_list.pdf

The first 11 "Federal Service" programs are all OMFS... I think they are designated for the scholarship recipients who wanna pursue OMFS. Only down/up side is.... they are all single degree.

I believe you can apply to these directly after dental school (assuming your one of the scholarship recipients)

I don't know how much you pay them back (4 years or 8).

 

[rockclock]

Haha, if I was that determined about the name, I would've chosen Harvard. It's cheaper than Columbia as well.

I am not as concerned about money as I am concerned about the opportunity available at the school.. UCSF is great, but many of the researching faculties in OMFS field is leaving. Dr. Schmidt left to NYU, and another professor who is actually actively engaged in research is leaving after this year as well. That leaves only 1 professor who would be pursuing non-clinical research in OMFS department. I would love to get involved with clinical research, but I don't think that opportunity is readily available for undergrads like us

I've wanted to live in the NYC and Columbia would be great. But I'd definitely have to go through the military HPSP route if I were to go to Columbia.

It's not too bad though, 4 years of gaining military experience, having honor in serving your country, being paid decently well (after tax, your military income is comparable to a civilian GP associate making ~120k), seeing the world on a ship, going on humanitarian missions, and also having a great chance at entering specialty program after military (as many of the Texas and southern schools reserve spots for military applicants). On top of that, you will be debt free and actually will come out ~250k in bank saved up after counting in reasonable living cost.

UCSF is undergoing lots of changes due to budget deficit it seems, cutting many faculties/imposing mandatory furloughs and making everything more efficient. I predict the cost of attendance to rise over few years..

Anyways, the deadline is 30th! I hope to make decision by then

It's not just cost, name, opportunities, etc. or any one thing in particular that would have made Harvard a great choice for you...it's basically everything. You've got a lot of people scratching their heads on this thread as to why you turned down Harvard... I guess we'll never know the whole story there.

And how is your deadline the 30th? Columbia just made me give them a decision by the 20th because I was holding a seat at UCLA...

 

[rockclock]

P.S. I'd be very impressed and at the same time very sad for your life if you managed to save 250k in four years on a military O-3 salary (2 years under 2 and 2 years over 2).

 

[rickblas]

sfoksn, I would definitely not want you as my oral surgeon seeing as how indecisive you are. Your original post was made in Feb; it is now almost May...Just sayin'

P.S. the suspense is killing me

 

[sfoksn]

And how is your deadline the 30th? Columbia just made me give them a decision by the 20th because I was holding a seat at UCLA...

I extended the deadline by calling them

P.S. I'd be very impressed and at the same time very sad for your life if you managed to save 250k in four years on a military O-3 salary (2 years under 2 and 2 years over 2).

It's not bad, after tax, O-3 salary with DASP bonus and VSP bonus comes out to ~75k per year. I don't think I would be using up 15k per year as a single for living cost...

sfoksn, I would definitely not want you as my oral surgeon seeing as how indecisive you are. Your original post was made in Feb; it is now almost May...Just sayin'

P.S. the suspense is killing me

I seriously think I have a problem, but I also have been very busy with finishing some research projects if that can be an excuse..

 

[sfoksn]

According to this:
http://www.aaoms.org/docs/residency/program_list.pdf

The first 11 "Federal Service" programs are all OMFS... I think they are designated for the scholarship recipients who wanna pursue OMFS. Only down/up side is.... they are all single degree.

I believe you can apply to these directly after dental school (assuming your one of the scholarship recipients)

I don't know how much you pay them back (4 years or 8).

Hey DW, I wasn't referring to those, those are military residency programs. I was referring to schools like UT Houston that reserves at least 1 spot per year in their OMFS program for military applicants.

 

[sfoksn]

let me get this straight:

if you go to UCSF:
- you get a scholarship
- you ultimately pay less

if you go to Columbia:
- you don't get any scholarships
- you ultimately pay more
- you decide to join the military to make up the difference

and you basically get the same package at both.......

if you're end-goal is to become an OMS then why would you choose the option that you feel you would have to join the military, thereby side-tracking your ultimate goal (depending on your "repayment" terms)?

seems like an easy decision to me.

Some days I think UCSF, some days I think Columbia.

I want to try living in the NYC, as I've always wanted to do that. But at the same time, my hometown in Bay Area and I know SF like the back of my hand. It's definitely my comfort zone.

I also want to serve in the military as I think it's a life experience. I think it will help me grow as a person. But at the same time, like you said, I don't want to side-track from my ultimate goal.

UCSF attracts me because of the low cost, much less stressful studying (P/NP without ranking, many students told me that it's actually easier to study at UCSF than at UCLA undergrad), ergo allowing me to allocate more time for research and other more fun activities. I can actually enjoy learning stuff rather than just cranking my brain for the H. Ultimately, I feel like I will enjoy my time at UCSF more.

Am I up for an adventure moving out of my comfort zone and also gaining life experience serving the country? Or should I be content in my comfort zone and taking the easy way out? I don't know..

 

[rockclock]

this is case in point of why they say to not make emotional decisions. ucsf is, by nearly every rational standard, the choice to make. that said, it's obvious that you're EXTREMELY emotionally invested in columbia at this point (and have been for many years now). if you don't pick columbia, you're going to second guess your move for a long time and possibly regret it at some point as well. if you're really the kind of person who can live like a student on 15k no problems through your 30s then you've got no business comparing prices anyway. go with your heart and pick columbia, get this over with, and get your sanity back.

take it from someone who had a similar choice to make for undergrad, going to a dream school vs. taking advantage of a huge scholarship. ended up taking the scholarship (huge pressure from the folks to do so as well) and it definitely affected my mood, my attitude, my performance for well over a year. very likely that we've both got more fortitude now than i did at 18, but the point stands. you've passed an emotional point of no return in being invested in columbia from all i can tell. good luck though, man. i can tell this has truly taken a toll on you.

 

[kitejunky27]

if you come to columbia dont do it on HPSP

I feel like that kind of defeats the purpose of going there. Once your in the army I doubt they care at all about where you went to school. Going to columbia to place directly into OS could help.

Also if you have the army train you some more then your just extending your service and pushing back being a civialian OS even further.

 

[sfoksn]

this is case in point of why they say to not make emotional decisions. ucsf is, by nearly every rational standard, the choice to make. that said, it's obvious that you're EXTREMELY emotionally invested in columbia at this point (and have been for many years now). if you don't pick columbia, you're going to second guess your move for a long time and possibly regret it at some point as well. if you're really the kind of person who can live like a student on 15k no problems through your 30s then you've got no business comparing prices anyway. go with your heart and pick columbia, get this over with, and get your sanity back.

take it from someone who had a similar choice to make for undergrad, going to a dream school vs. taking advantage of a huge scholarship. ended up taking the scholarship (huge pressure from the folks to do so as well) and it definitely affected my mood, my attitude, my performance for well over a year. very likely that we've both got more fortitude now than i did at 18, but the point stands. you've passed an emotional point of no return in being invested in columbia from all i can tell. good luck though, man. i can tell this has truly taken a toll on you.

Thanks, you've knocked in some sense in me. I've decided to attend UCSF. It was the realistically correct choice.

Offers just as much opportunity as Columbia, much more affordable, closer to family, less stress, and in the end will still get me where I want to go, I believe.

This decision took way too long.

 

[rockclock]

haha my post was actually geared in the other direction, but if showing you how emotionally involved you were helped you make the right choice then i'm glad to help.

...and yes. waaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too long haha. go out with some friends tonight and throw a few back. take time to finally celebrate what you haven't been able to for over four months!

 

[rickblas]

Thanks, you've knocked in some sense in me. I've decided to attend UCSF. It was the realistically correct choice.

Offers just as much opportunity as Columbia, much more affordable, closer to family, less stress, and in the end will still get me where I want to go, I believe.

This decision took way too long.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I guessed it right, 2months+ ago I voted for UCSF when nobody else voted for it and UCSF wins woot. I knew you'd come to your senses and had faith you'd make the logical decision

*opens champagne bottle

P.S. after all the money saved and your extensive OMFS residency, open up a practice in NYC and get that "new experience" you want, but by this time you would be able to afford it!

 

[sfoksn]

Thanks everyone

 

[babypapa]

Thanks, you've knocked in some sense in me. I've decided to attend UCSF. It was the realistically correct choice.

Offers just as much opportunity as Columbia, much more affordable, closer to family, less stress, and in the end will still get me where I want to go, I believe.

This decision took way too long.

Congratulations for the final settlement! As always, you moved in a way that surprises me but I strongly believe you...not just you....we've made a best decision to drop Columbia from our wishlist. Some part of me got little comfort from your choice partly because I still might be looking for something to rationalize my decision, honestly. However, even if I can go back to last January, I'm 100% sure that there would be no change at all in the fact that I will attend Stony Brook this fall. Good luck with your endeavor to reach your final goal (Oral surgeon right?), see you around doctor!

 

[Maygyver]

Thanks, you've knocked in some sense in me. I've decided to attend UCSF. It was the realistically correct choice.

Offers just as much opportunity as Columbia, much more affordable, closer to family, less stress, and in the end will still get me where I want to go, I believe.

This decision took way too long.

Good choice. And my guess too. I think it's the smart choice. I had the same decision but picked Columbia due to being closer to family and being out of state..and not having that huge scholarship you got. Congratulations!