Anatomic Pathology Residency Questions

[ESWoodhouse]

Hi! I'm a new member and this is my first time posting! I've found some helpful threads from past years and am hoping you guys can help me. I'm a current 3rd year student and am busy looking into anatomic pathology residency programs to apply to this year.
After doing a bunch of research on my own and talking to the residents at our diagnostic lab (where I work), I've got a few top programs I'm looking at (University of George, NC State, Louisiana State) and wonder if there's any thoughts on how to rank those? I like the species breakdown at UG (ditto for LSU) and that they have opportunities at SCWDS, but am also very interested in the Comparative Pathology track at NC State. Since I'm not sure whether or not to pursue a dual degree, I like that UG and LSU are set up where you can either do just the residency or a residency and PhD.
Any thoughts on how important it is to get a PhD? I'm a non-traditional student and would really like to stop living like a student sooner rather than later 🙃
I've also run into some scheduling issues and will not be able to have externships at all these locations prior to applying. How important is it that I do a full externship rather than just visit for a few days (which I can do during my vacation time)?
Whoo! 😮‍💨 sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance!

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[JaynaAli]

Tagging @awesomenessity and @WhtsThFrequency since they’re our APs.

I’m a clinical pathologist, but my understanding is that in general, a PhD is more expected/required for AP than it is in CP, at least for academia. I work in diagnostics and I don’t think the PhD is as necessary for APs in that type of role, but it does still seem like many of my AP coworkers do have advanced degrees than the CPs. I think a longer visit is ideal, but I feel like you can learn what you need to know in a shorter visit too. IMO it would be better to just visit for a couple days than to not visit at all, but even if you can’t visit, it doesn’t mean your chances of an offer are nil. But I do think visiting in person is good, if possible.

Also, you ask how to rank programs…Unless something has majorly changed that I’m not aware of, pathology is not in the match so there’s no need to rank the programs like other specialties do. You just apply to places you’re interested in and places that want you will make an offer and you get to choose to accept or decline. There are pros and cons to not being in the match.

I would be sure to ask programs their boards pass rate. To me, that’s probably more important that species breakdown and all that, but again ymmv in AP than it did for me in CP.

 

[ESWoodhouse]

Tagging @awesomenessity and @WhtsThFrequency since they’re our APs.

I’m a clinical pathologist, but my understanding is that in general, a PhD is more expected/required for AP than it is in CP, at least for academia. I work in diagnostics and I don’t think the PhD is as necessary for APs in that type of role, but it does still seem like many of my AP coworkers do have advanced degrees than the CPs. I think a longer visit is ideal, but I feel like you can learn what you need to know in a shorter visit too. IMO it would be better to just visit for a couple days than to not visit at all, but even if you can’t visit, it doesn’t mean your chances of an offer are nil. But I do think visiting in person is good, if possible.

Also, you ask how to rank programs…Unless something has majorly changed that I’m not aware of, pathology is not in the match so there’s no need to rank the programs like other specialties do. You just apply to places you’re interested in and places that want you will make an offer and you get to choose to accept or decline. There are pros and cons to not being in the match.

I would be sure to ask programs their boards pass rate. To me, that’s probably more important that species breakdown and all that, but again ymmv in AP than it did for me in CP.

That's helpful, thank you! Yeah, I'm pretty happy that path isn't in the match since there's more freedom for both the applicants and the programs. I was more curious about the program reputations but I'll definitely try to visit prior to applying so that I can get a better feel for each program.

 

[battie]

One of my besties is a AP resident at Georgia. I can ask her if she'd be willing to talk to you.

 

[awesomenessity]

What Jayna said is basically my response! I think there is definitely a shift towards not requiring advanced degrees for diagnosticians, but that really depends on what type of diagnostics you want to do. A lot of toxicology/research pathology places still emphasize the advanced degrees, whereas provincial/state etc labs may not care as much. I personally decided to do the PhD since I want to teach at a vet school in the future.

Definitely ask about the boards pass rate. The school I'm at did not do so hot on boards this past year, which IMO is a direct reflection of the program quality. So I think that can tell you a lot! I feel like the only reason I passed was because I essentially got 8 months off to study, since our program was so... minimal? lol. (Also don't worry, my school isn't one of the three you listed haha)

 

[ESWoodhouse]

One of my besties is a AP resident at Georgia. I can ask her if she'd be willing to talk to you.

That'd be great! Thanks!

 

[ESWoodhouse]

What Jayna said is basically my response! I think there is definitely a shift towards not requiring advanced degrees for diagnosticians, but that really depends on what type of diagnostics you want to do. A lot of toxicology/research pathology places still emphasize the advanced degrees, whereas provincial/state etc labs may not care as much. I personally decided to do the PhD since I want to teach at a vet school in the future.

Definitely ask about the boards pass rate. The school I'm at did not do so hot on boards this past year, which IMO is a direct reflection of the program quality. So I think that can tell you a lot! I feel like the only reason I passed was because I essentially got 8 months off to study, since our program was so... minimal? lol. (Also don't worry, my school isn't one of the three you listed haha)

Oh! Good to know about needing an advanced degree (like vet school and residency isn't advanced enough 😅) to teach. I love teaching and will probably end up back there one day. I'm bummed that you can't really find boards pass rates until you ask in an interview (at least, that's what it seems like). Congrats on passing!

 

[awesomenessity]

Oh! Good to know about needing an advanced degree (like vet school and residency isn't advanced enough 😅) to teach. I love teaching and will probably end up back there one day. I'm bummed that you can't really find boards pass rates until you ask in an interview (at least, that's what it seems like). Congrats on passing!

Thank you! Yes you will need some kind of advanced degree to teach (in the current job market anyway). They are probably less concerned about it for a primarily diagnostic position at a lab that happens to teach vet students during their 4th year rotations, etc, however for the didactic parts of pathology teaching they are definitely looking for an advanced degree!

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

What Jayna said is basically my response! I think there is definitely a shift towards not requiring advanced degrees for diagnosticians, but that really depends on what type of diagnostics you want to do. A lot of toxicology/research pathology places still emphasize the advanced degrees, whereas provincial/state etc labs may not care as much. I personally decided to do the PhD since I want to teach at a vet school in the future.

Definitely ask about the boards pass rate. The school I'm at did not do so hot on boards this past year, which IMO is a direct reflection of the program quality. So I think that can tell you a lot! I feel like the only reason I passed was because I essentially got 8 months off to study, since our program was so... minimal? lol. (Also don't worry, my school isn't one of the three you listed haha)

Agree wholeheartedly with both of these. And all the programs OP listed are historically strong programs.

I did a PhD after my residency for the exact reason of wanting to be a professor - which I agree seems....excessive in terms of degrees and time spent. However, it's one of those things that "is what it is" when it comes to certain specialties in veterinary academia - grumble grumble. If you look at any vet school's anatomic pathology faculty who have decent teaching loads (whether it be in the classroom, or rotations, or both) the vast majority of them have PhDs on top of DVM and board certification. Part of this is because in most state institutions (ie vet schools) you are expected to have some sort of research program going on in almost any medical faculty position. I'm extremely lucky because my current position is 75% teaching and only 25% clinical service/university service/research, so I don't have to run projects as a PI or get grants (whew - I much prefer being in a collaborative role) but I am an exception because my department is somewhat unique.

A full externship is not necessary imo - even just visiting for a few days can really help your cause and put a face to a name. If you can swing it, I highly encourage going to visit programs. if you can get the residents by themselves to ask them what they really feel like about the program, even better - that is where you will get the most accurate feedback on the strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Eclectic Teal]

Mind if I piggyback off this thread? Also applying this year and making final decisions on schools ahead of the application cycle/my free rotation blocks.

How many residencies do people typically apply to?
Also, do you think doing a conference call/zoom will still help with recognition if you can't visit all the programs in person?

 

[JaynaAli]

I personally applied to about six my first application cycle and closer to ten the second year. I don’t think there’s really data for this since it’s outside the match…there’s no one to track this information.

Visiting in person is always going to be best, but yes, video chat is better than nothing. Another intermediate option is making time to go to ACVP and meeting/talking to people from programs there. ACVP means travel but it allows you to travel once and talk to several programs and alumni. If you’re applying this year, it may be too late for ACVP to be super beneficial though since often decisions are made before or right around that time, at least for clin path.

 

[Eclectic Teal]

I personally applied to about six my first application cycle and closer to ten the second year. I don’t think there’s really data for this since it’s outside the match…there’s no one to track this information.

Visiting in person is always going to be best, but yes, video chat is better than nothing. Another intermediate option is making time to go to ACVP and meeting/talking to people from programs there. ACVP means travel but it allows you to travel once and talk to several programs and alumni. If you’re applying this year, it may be too late for ACVP to be super beneficial though since often decisions are made before or right around that time, at least for clin path.

Wow, thanks for the fast reply. Yeah, it's hard to find data for these things, but I'll keep those numbers in mind. ACVP was very helpful for networking and getting a feel for the "vibe" of programs. I'll definitely try to call or visit everyone, though

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I applied to five I believe, maybe six - spread a wide net.

And keep an open mind as well about location. I ended up going to a program that I knew the least about and wasn't that thrilled about the location - however, I had the best possible residency experience I could have hoped for, and now highly recommend it to anyone going into anatomic path. I'm SO glad I sucked it up and lived in an area of the country that I didn't like for a few years, because the program itself absolutely set me up for success. It sounds super trite but looking back at those three years, they were some of the best years of my academic life despite the workload and stress that comes with any residency.

 

[ESWoodhouse]

Agree wholeheartedly with both of these. And all the programs OP listed are historically strong programs.

I did a PhD after my residency for the exact reason of wanting to be a professor - which I agree seems....excessive in terms of degrees and time spent. However, it's one of those things that "is what it is" when it comes to certain specialties in veterinary academia - grumble grumble. If you look at any vet school's anatomic pathology faculty who have decent teaching loads (whether it be in the classroom, or rotations, or both) the vast majority of them have PhDs on top of DVM and board certification. Part of this is because in most state institutions (ie vet schools) you are expected to have some sort of research program going on in almost any medical faculty position. I'm extremely lucky because my current position is 75% teaching and only 25% clinical service/university service/research, so I don't have to run projects as a PI or get grants (whew - I much prefer being in a collaborative role) but I am an exception because my department is somewhat unique.

A full externship is not necessary imo - even just visiting for a few days can really help your cause and put a face to a name. If you can swing it, I highly encourage going to visit programs. if you can get the residents by themselves to ask them what they really feel like about the program, even better - that is where you will get the most accurate feedback on the strengths and weaknesses.

That's very helpful, thank you! I'm going to need to figure out about the PhD but luckily that's not something I need to figure out right this minute. I also prefer a more collaborative role in research rather than being a PI since you're not really doing 'the science' at that point (after having worked in several research settings), so I'm hoping I can find a place later in my career that gives me that chance.
I think I'll end up applying to 5 programs this year to maximize my chances of getting in the first time around. Glad that these are historically strong programs! That's very helpful to know!

 

[Eclectic Teal]

I applied to five I believe, maybe six - spread a wide net.

And keep an open mind as well about location. I ended up going to a program that I knew the least about and wasn't that thrilled about the location - however, I had the best possible residency experience I could have hoped for, and now highly recommend it to anyone going into anatomic path. I'm SO glad I sucked it up and lived in an area of the country that I didn't like for a few years, because the program itself absolutely set me up for success. It sounds super trite but looking back at those three years, they were some of the best years of my academic life despite the workload and stress that comes with any residency.

Would you be willing to PM which program it was/why you liked it? I know the program may have changed over the years, but an additional perspective on things to look for in a program is always appreciated

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'll say it right here because I'll always give them a shout-out - Texas A&M. Hated living in Texas because of both the politics and the weather. However, the program was amazing and my entire residency cohort picks up like we never left with each other every time we all get together at ACVP over a decade later - very close knit group, and I can't say enough about how supportive the faculty are. It's a very structured program which I liked, because I need supervision so I don't go off into ADHD land - hah! They focus very much on preparing you for boards and have an excellent pass rate. I passed on my first try (as did the other anatomics in my year, as well as our clinicals) and I totally credit the structure and care of that program for it. In terms of your listed programs, my best pathology friend did her residency around the same time as me at UGA, and sings its praises highly.