I really wish pharmacist salaries starting $33/h happen soon so that all schools have to close or lower tuition. I keep wondering why it doesn't happen now.
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- Thread starter Rphonthecome
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I can see +$5.... if you have a track record of being a good staff pharmacist (dunno how you gonna prove aside from annual evals when chains accept mediocrity and ciphers for pharmacists)
Those places haven't had a real manager for months so what's the point of accepting some unproven rando at this point
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So what I’m hearing is: I’m jumping ahead of the CS saturation to make some short term money. So you’re buying yourself a few years. What’s your plan when the CS saturation hits?
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We're all just holding on until UBI eventually comes. Yang 2024, think about it...
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If it is 5+ then the 4$ more for staff to manager I would jump on it (77) but if 68+5 (73)only for CA it would be hard to get excited for redding, though I've always wanted to visit Jefferson.
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If you were to get $77 an excellent interview would be a must and ample evidence of you knowing your ****. These places can prob muddle along with "acting PICs" for months or even years.
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deleted562805
Congratulations, Hedgehog32! Well, you got to do something rather than stay unemployed for a year. And you could still apply CS with respect to pharmacy
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deleted562805
CS saturation and outsourcing already happened during the Bush and Obama years. Now, the CS job market is correcting itself. They need more American ingenuity and engineers
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So it’s behind the CS curve. That’s even worst.
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deleted562805
Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.
How is that worse than pharmacy? CS is in demand right now and is going to survive and be in demand after this pandemic for the future, especially the startup app companies. CS can be applied to any field not just Facebook, Apple or Google or Microsoft or Amazon. Plus, companies realized that foreign grads are too expensive to train.
Only maybe hardware engineers are slow in job growth, but software engineers job growth is going to survive. It’s not going to hit rock bottom unlike pharmacy.
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Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.www.bls.gov
How is that worse than pharmacy? CS is in demand right now and is going to survive and be in demand after this pandemic for the future, especially the startup app companies. CS can be applied to any field not just Facebook, Apple or Google or Microsoft or Amazon. Plus, companies realized that foreign grads are too expensive to train.
Only maybe hardware engineers are slow in job growth, but software engineers job growth is going to survive. It’s not going to hit rock bottom unlike pharmacy.
CS can easily be shipped overseas.
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I mean honestly if they don't hire their interns who have been working for them for many years, I don't think they will even hire anyone in the future. I wonder what the lowest a 2020 grad took this year? it will be interesting to see???
No, not the important stuff and not everything. It’s a little more in depth than counting by 5s. They tried to ship more work overseas and pay cheap like they do here and have people there on contract. That’s why that 737 max went down, the people working on the code couldn’t have cared less (read about it, it’s jaw dropping). They get poor quality work shipping stuff overseas. Talk to people in computers.
Another example: you can’t ship government related computer work overseas. There’s many other examples.
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Wow....yeah. If only I had a crystal ball....LOL It's not like the train was already jumping the tracks for the last 10 years or anything. If only someone had TOLD me! BooHoo! Woe is me! It's REALLY too bad that NONE of the veteran pharmacists did ANYTHING to warn students to jump ship. We really did a disservice to those poor passionate youngsters....Hmm if only someone could've known four years ago that the job market for pharmacists was going to be horrible.
And the computer field has jobs in a number of companies or every company. Not like pharmacy where it’s Walgreens or CVS and I doubt you can turn computer work into a sweatshop like CVS or Optum.Home : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
The Occupational Outlook Handbook is the government's premier source of career guidance featuring hundreds of occupations—such as carpenters, teachers, and veterinarians. Revised annually, the latest version contains employment projections for the 2021-31 decade.
How is that worse than pharmacy? CS is in demand right now and is going to survive and be in demand after this pandemic for the future, especially the startup app companies. CS can be applied to any field not just Facebook, Apple or Google or Microsoft or Amazon. Plus, companies realized that foreign grads are too expensive to train.
Only maybe hardware engineers are slow in job growth, but software engineers job growth is going to survive. It’s not going to hit rock bottom unlike pharmacy.
They’ve been not hiring all their interns.
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are u asking or saying ?
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What fraction of the CS world does that represent? What fraction of CS grads will get this lucrative work? You really think this type of work will go to people who haven’t finished from top tier US schools? To me, the analogy you’re making is the same as the clinical pharmacist analogy. “Clinical pharmacy will be here to save the day”. Yeah, cause that worked for us.
They only care until they get sued. Until then, they will take every cost cutting, overseas job they can.
We’re all irreplaceable. Until we are.
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They have been saying that the last 20 yrs since Bill gates was still with Microsoft. H-1Bs gonna steal all of US jobs. However, nothing happens. Salary continues to go up, they continue to fight for tech workers. They can't keep up with demand and import workers from overseas sponsoring them with green cards.
Let's face it every business wants to be efficient, softwares play an integral part so companies can be more productive and cut labor. Demand for CS grads continues to go up, not decreasing.
I’m saying. Lol that’s been going on. In one district I heard, but this is two years ago, that they only hired one intern.
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Lol. which district is it if you do not mind ?or the area
Sit in a computer class and listen to the conversations of those in the field. I can promise you their conversations are dramatically different than the conversations that pharmacists are having nowadays.
Either way, I definitely wouldn’t put my money on pharmacy. But, to each his own. I mean, it would be great for me if everyone keeps running to pharmacy. I’m lovin it!
Northern Phoenix somewhere. But this has been going on since 2011.
I know the work doesn’t just go to people from top tier schools cause I know people that do well that got an online degree and probably make what you make with benefits and vaca and raises. I also know people from top tier schools, not in computers but in general, that don’t have great jobs. A top tier school is like the difference between generic and brand. You pay for that top tier school but last I checked generic is accredited too and it’s on sale for more than 50% off.
You get out of it what you put into it. At the interview they can tell if you know your stuff or not, unlike pharmacy because it really doesn’t matter, its somewhat brainless work.
Top tier doesn’t always mean **it I mean just about everyone in Bmore has a Johns Hopkins degree. Same with the other brand name schools. They’re pumping those degrees out don’t you know? Money talks.
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100% agreed there
I never said you start off with a high salary. I find that that’s what many pharmacists just look for.
I can tell you that it is true that if you find something, some area you like, you will do well. I can also say that I feel sorry for people who are this far into a high paying job and still don’t see that a lower paying job with a better work/life balance makes life way more enjoyable. I feel sorry for people who only look at the money. I mean, I have found, that those people are somewhat boring individuals. All they do is work. And if COVID-19 doesn’t make them realize that life is short, nothing will.
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I'm not delusional enough to think that the CS job market won't ever be saturated, but at the same time, I'm willing to risk spending the additional debt/time/effort earning a CS degree under the expectation that it won't be saturated within the next ~1.5 yrs.
You have to keep in mind that the most immediate comparison I can make to the CS job market is the pharmacy job market. Right now, I'm looking at ZERO employment prospects, whether it's retail pharmacy, hospital pharmacy, or a nontraditional field (e.g., I was shocked to see that even temporary contract medical writing positions posted to LinkedIn are receiving 300+ applications). As far as I can tell, the only pharmacy jobs I may have a realistic chance of getting hired for are chain retail positions in extremely rural areas, and I don't even have specific evidence I can provide to support that assertion.
So for me, weighing the risks vs. benefits of pursuing a CS degree includes objectively asking the question, even if the CS job market IS moderately saturated by the time I graduate, is it going to be so abysmally saturated that I literally won't be able to find a job anywhere in the country except for a handful of rural regions?
Keep in mind that I'm not expecting to get some hotshot FAANG position at any point in my career; rather, I'd simply be happy with a job paying a solid wage to live in a relatively desirable medium-sized city, and anything more than that would be the proverbial icing on the cake.
Also, as @Rx1992 pointed out, having both CS and pharmacy degrees will hopefully make me uniquely qualified for CS positions at pharma and biotech companies, or even at EHR corps like Epic. Ironically enough, it seems that at this point, a non-residency trained pharmacist's best chances of making professional use of the pharmacy degree are realized through combining it with a complementary (and in-demand) qualification.
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Thanks. Now I just need to decide if I want to attend the program starting next week at the cost of forfeiting obtaining pharmacist licensure, or if I want to at least give myself a chance to get licensed and apply to start the CS program in August. Also, I'm trying to get informed feedback on whether I'll be compromising my future career prospects by attending a relatively unknown state school.
These pharmacy schools will keep getting applications because these naïve incoming pharmacy students believe that its worth it as long as they can call themselves doctors and google an average salary of 6-figures somewhere on the internet
It sounds to me that they never believe wage will be lower than $40/h.
But my classmates who got hired admit that 6-figure salary is impossible. And average loan balance this year (class of 2020) of my school is 224k, nationwide average of pharmacy schools is 235k.
They will have to live like a student for 6-7 years to pay off their loans then hope won't get laid off afterward to live a normal life.
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It was shipped and outsourced overseas ten years ago. Companies realize that foreigners are expensive to train. That’s why it is huge demand now and of course Trump making it difficult for foreigners to enter the US.
And ten years ago, mostly FANG jobs were getting outsourced. As a CS major, one can work for hospital, retail store, grocery store, News media companies in a IT department. Every single industry needs CS engineers unlike pharmacy where many industries think the PharmD is a basic degree unless you are in retail
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Unlike medicine or pharmacy. One does not even need a degree in CS There are people getting computer jobs in start up companies after taking self taught online programming courses on Tree House.com. In tech, it is completely opposite from pharmacy, it’s about what you know as opposed to who you know to get a job.
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$46 Wag offer in Las Vegas. Extremely reliable.
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I would suggest to skip licensure. It’s 1,000 dollars for NAPLEX and then about 250 dollars for MPJE if it is a state without a compounding exam. In Georgia, you have to take a compounding exam and medication errors exam along with the law exam. For Georgia, the cost is 470 dollars-law exam, medication errors and compounding exam if you want to get licensed in GA.
I would take the CS opportunity. BLS stats are pointing CS scientists ten year job growth at 16% and CS engineering at 21%. Could the market saturate maybe, or maybe not because they are people who have no CS degrees working in IT too. But CS can be applied everywhere in every industry unlike PharmD. Plus, schedule or lack of a schedule and benefits of working at home and plus a decent salary to good salary and the potential to create your own start ups makes CS a good ROI.
Let's not be facetious. Sure, it's possible to get "a" job with self-taught online programming courses. But in all likelihood, it'll be a very crappy low-paying job.
Unless you fancy yourself the next Bill Gates, CS degrees are still important for any major company.
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Some of what you said is true if one wants to work for Facebook right after CS school. I agree top CS companies want a degree plus intern experience and abilities. And CS degree is cheaper with some programs charging tuition 10k per year.
But the jobs for tree house people without CS degree are by no means ****ty jobs.Here is a link of some students of tree house who were able to get jobs as Front end developers in start up companies for full time pay. 60k for 1-4 years is the average salary for these jobs. Not to mention, additional bonuses and a trend to upward career development possibly transition into FANG companies after some years of work experience.
5 Treehouse Students Who Found Tech Jobs in Less than a Year [Article] | Treehouse Blog
All Treehouse courses are on demand allowing you to set your own schedule. We list 5 Treehouse students who found jobs in less than a year.
blog.teamtreehouse.com
Also, I know one of my parents friends who had Bachelors of Arts from India who did some online computer classes in a community college and got a IT job in the state government. No CS degree. She is now director of the IT department for the Department of Human Resources.
Let’s compare that to pharmacy. Pharmacy requires a four year expensive degree. After eight years, one will only get a floater retail job while stuck on 200 k loans and a lucky to get a PRN job in hospital. Or one decides to do pharmacy residency for two years but will get a PRN hospital job and is lucky to get a full time staff or clinical position. Both struggle to pay 200 k in loans.
At the end of day people without a CS degree and getting Front line developer job positions for start ups beats CVS and Walgreens and a PRN hospital job. Not to mention, pharmacist salaries are getting cut every year. In the future, I can see pharmacist making way less than Front line developer people without a CS degree in a start up company.
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Some of what you said is true if one wants to work for Facebook right after CS school. I agree top CS companies want a degree plus intern experience and abilities. And CS degree is cheaper with some programs charging tuition 10k per year.
But the jobs for tree house people without CS degree are by no means ****ty jobs.Here is a link of some students of tree house who were able to get jobs as Front end developers in start up companies for full time pay. 60k for 1-4 years is the average salary for these jobs. Not to mention, additional bonuses and a trend to upward career development possibly transition into FANG companies after some years of work experience.
5 Treehouse Students Who Found Tech Jobs in Less than a Year [Article] | Treehouse Blog
All Treehouse courses are on demand allowing you to set your own schedule. We list 5 Treehouse students who found jobs in less than a year.
Also, I know one of my parents friends who had Bachelors of Arts from India who did some online computer classes in a community college and got a IT job in the state government. No CS degree. She is now director of the IT department for the Department of Human Resources.
Let’s compare that to pharmacy. Pharmacy requires a four year expensive degree. After eight years, one will only get a floater retail job while stuck on 200 k loans and a lucky to get a PRN job in hospital. Or one decides to do pharmacy residency for two years but will get a PRN hospital job and is lucky to get a full time staff or clinical position. Both struggle to pay 200 k in loans.
At the end of day people without a CS degree and getting Front line developer job positions for start ups beats CVS and Walgreens and a PRN hospital job. Not to mention, pharmacist salaries are getting cut every year. In the future, I can see pharmacist making way less than Front line developer people without a CS degree in a start up company.
You're using the blog for the website that provides the online classes as an example of 5 people who've gotten jobs? I mean...really?
No offense, but you may as well listen to the pharmacy school advertisements that say that there's still plenty of job prospects. It's called biased and selective advertising.
As for your parent's friend, I'm going to assume it happened quite some time ago. Back when computer sciences was still an up-and-coming field and there was much less competition.
Don't get me wrong. A large proportion of my family are in CS. There is a lot of room for vertical movement and the benefits are nice. But there's a lot of "grass-is-greener" mentality on these forums too with information that's either hyperbole or blatantly misleading.
If you've spoken to freelance developers, which is what a good portion of people from bootcamps and independent developers start as, you may already know that the work is intermittent. Oftentimes, after the job is completed, your employer will try to shortchange or not pay which means having to hound them down for your pay.
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Okay, do you have sources that say CS is going to get saturated or CS people are finding it hard to get jobs. Because they are not.
BLS stats show 16 to 21% growth for CS jobs compared to 0% for pharmacy.
I agree with you that the tree house ad is probably misleading. And a free lance developer job is intermittent. But still you don’t need a CS degree to get a job in IT. One can learn Python, Java and C+++ on their own too. Mastering those programming skills and you can create a start up or become a web developer or free lance developer on your own too. And there are many people that create start up apps on their own and they are not on the level of Gates or Zuckerberg.
However, for a major company like Facebook, Apple or Google, Yes a degree is probably required and degree is definitely required for IT hospital, or government. However, major tech companies value skill more than a piece of paper. In contrast, pharmacy degree and credentials are placed with high importance
My parents friend got a job when the outsourcing of FANG jobs started. Those jobs that were outsourced in top companies are now returning to the US. Now, there are also many start up companies in the up and coming along with FANG. I think there is a lot of misinformation about CS with no sources to back up any claims just because some people are pivoting out of pharmacy. Could CS get saturated maybe, but that’s not the trend for the next ten years. CS was outsourced ten years ago, but people were still able to find jobs, just not in the major top tech companies.
Overall, I think the grass is actually better in CS compared to healthcare jobs in general and definitely better than pharmacy.
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It depends. I can see the hardware department turn into a sweat shop, but not software department. But the hardware department won’t be as bad as CVS
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are texas and Florida saturated too?
A word of caution regarding the BLS stats. They generally lag behind a few years and more probably more indicative of the immediate future (maybe the next year or two) rather than the next 5 to 10 years. They're updated every couple of years for a reason. Other times, things just happen that can't be accounted for (the dot-com bubble, real estate bubble, and most recently COVID). Regardless, they're the most standardized and informative data that we have and I'm not denying the stats for these respective jobs.
You can self-teach programming languages to whatever skill level you can. At a certain point, talent acquisition will have to filter out applicants; will they interview the person with a degree or the applicant who says they're self-taught? Besides having the degree, colleges have internships and job fairs which aren't offered to independent learners/bootcamps. These people *could* develop their own startup or app. But let's be honest. 99.99% of them fail for any number of reasons. They could earn millions but only because they're so likely to fail and the risk is so great.
Once you're hired, skill does become more important in CS. But a lot of people seem to forget one simple fact. They're simply not as good as they think they are. A lot of projects are done in teams and your code is constantly reviewed by others making it very easy to see how good and/or bad you are. Remember that 50% of the people at any workplace is below average; are people that certain that they're more skilled than their colleagues?
My point is that CS really isn't for everybody even though people make it seem that they can just take a few classes and drop right in. If you're not talented in it, you either may as well stay in pharmacy (if you already have the job) or pick a different profession altogether.
Farmgurl20
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I agree. I have family members who are software developers at big companies and let me tell you it’s not easy. All those perks don’t come easy. Plus all those nice perks only happens in big company and that too come with big cost. They expect you to work all day every day and of course have to have brain to keep up with demand of those companies. Also, lots of software companies in silicon valley and all across country are laying off people so imagine that. Also, I have heard that firing is quite common at these companies if you don’t work hard enough. So yah it’s not easy and you can’t just wake up one day and decide to do CS. Also, lots of companies are deciding to work remote for CS people so who knows what might happen if anyone wanted to start CS program.
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1) A.I. (74%)
2) Robotics Engineer (40%)
3)Data Scientist (37%)
4)Full Stack Developer (35%)
5)Site Reliability Engineer (34%)
6)Customer Needs Specialist (34%)
7)Sales Development Rep (34%)
8)Data Engineer (34%)
9)Behavior Health Technician (32%)
10)Cybersecurity Specialist(30%)
11)Back End Developer (30%)
12)Chief Revenue Officer (28%)
13)Cloud Engineer (27%)
14)Javascript Developer (25%)
15)Product Owner (24%)
9 out of the top 15 hottest fields/skillsets are in C.S.
whereas https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/bhw/nchwa/projections/pharmacists-2016-2030.pdf
Pharmacy is set to have a SURPLUS of 50,000 pharmacists by 2025.
Those be the facts.
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Here's verifiable outcomes on two good coding bootcamps that someone could study for a few months and pass their admissions assessment. Average income after the camp is $114,000...most pharmacy students can only dream of making that much in todays market and not be a slave to CVS.
Not sure why people keep quoting me job growth statistics. I feel like I've made myself perfectly clear that my position is that pharmacy job growth is terrible and schools need to decrease admissions and CS job growth is high. I guess I just need to say it in every post I ever make about CS, because I certainly seem to be responded with it every time.
I'm not familiar with those two programs. But a quick glance at what you linked said there's 40% *Edit: 60% employment after 3 months, then 10% and 30% unemployment after 6 months. It somewhat reinforces what I said about job prospects for bootcamps actually.
Seeing as how they're both based in San Francisco and LA, two of the highest cost of living cities in the US, I'm not terribly impressed with the median income either.
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Actually, the GA BOP has temporarily suspended the compounding exam requirement until August, I think (not sure if they've reduced the price of the licensure process any because of that, though). Regarding the CS program, I won't know until next week whether I've been admitted. Also, there's a chance I might have to take the pre-requisite Intro CS courses prior to officially enrolling in the program. If that's the case, then I'll have to wait to start one of the other CS programs in August since I wouldn't qualify for federal loans to take any classes unless it's under the pretense of being officially enrolled in a grad program.
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From what I've been told, it really depends on what your background is. If someone is a graduate of one of the well-reputed bootcamp programs (especially Hack Reactor), it's not uncommon at all to have a shot at working for Google, Amazon, FB, etc. As for me, I prefer having a formal qualification, which is why I'm in the process of applying to CS masters programs. Also, there are a handful of masters programs out there that can be finished within 1-1.5 yrs; considering that many bootcamps take 4-6 months to complete and cost about as much as the masters programs I'm looking at, I don't mind spending the extra months in school to earn a formal degree.
Of course, this is all assuming I make the decision to not give myself 6-8 months to get a pharmacist license and try to find a job (apparently *any* job) in pharmacy.
Edit: You mentioned in another post that there's a strong "grass is greener" mentality w/ respect to the trend to promote CS as the ideal career pivot out of pharmacy. I personally don't have any grandiose illusions of how great the lifestyle is as a SWE (or any other CS professional); for me, it's simply a matter of having absolutely no pharmacy job prospects whatsoever, the fact that I have kept in touch with a scary number of c/o 2019 grads who still haven't found jobs, and the base desire at this point to simply get a well-paying job that won't necessitate moving to BFE to put up with abysmal work conditions (e.g., standing for 12-14 hrs/day in chain retail). I have zero delusions whatsoever of becoming some sort of superstar engineer earning $200k+ at Google/FB/Apple to work whenever I feel like working when I'm tired of relaxing all day at my home office.
At this point, I just want a job that will provide a comfortable living, the prospect of upward mobility, involves work I can tolerate, and gives me the opportunity to get out of this city (you're familiar with my location so you probably know what I mean). Ironically enough, a pharmacy career would fulfill that last crtieria, although it would do so by forcing me to move somewhere even LESS desirable than where I'm at now.
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You have not been doing your job search homework
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