Would like some clarification

[runningkoyote]

Hi everyone,

I realize many people on this forum are pessimistic about the job prospects for pharmacy students, but I just wanted a clarification since I have been talking with multiple friends who are pre-pharm who have been saying they feel confident that they can get a job as a pharmacist, as long as they work hard. I also know a few pharm students who already have jobs (such as retail) lined up after they graduate, and they make this seem like the norm rather than the exception. To what extent is this actually true? Do people who attend reputable pharm schools (i.e. UMich, UCSF, UW) reliably obtain jobs in the areas where those institutions are located? I may be slightly confused because the posts on this forum seem to greatly contradict the interactions I have been having in real life with people.

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[mentos]

Keep in mind that those who did not get job offers are less likely to announce that to the world. What is your sample size? Where are these jobs located, what is the hourly rate, how many hours are they guaranteed? Those are all important details.

Good for them for getting job offers but it will be completely different 4 years from now. Wages have already dropped by 20% in the past couple years. They drop more every year. Stores close every year, that means more layoffs.

It doesn't matter which pharmacy school you go to.

There are plenty of posts about unemployed pharmDs who graduated last year or earlier, just check the main pharmacy forum.

 

[TerryTerry]

It`s hard to find a job. If you manage to find a job most of them won`t be secure one. period.

 

[DagS132]

Yes its honestly pretty confusing. We have posters that say the unemployed ones won't ever say they are unemployed yet the same posters turn around to say how many unemployed pharmacists they personally know. I have the same experience as you OP, all of my friends that went to pharm school and graduated have jobs. Some of them do say it was scary when they couldn't immediately find one but they all eventually did.
But take all of the job security risk talk into consideration when thinking about starting pharmacy school.

 

[PharmtoCS]

I have been talking with multiple friends who are pre-pharm who have been saying they feel confident that they can get a job as a pharmacist, as long as they work hard

See my joke about traveling to a Level 4 Advisory region. Saying that saturation won't affect you because you're a hard worker is like saying that you won't be affected by coronavirus if you just wear a mask and wash your hands every 30 minutes.

If you really think that you just have to work hard and stand out to succeed in pharmacy...

Why not enjoy life a little and travel to some of these destinations below that have a Level 4 Travel Advisory? You only live once, after all. Iraq Iran Mali Central African Republic Yemen South Sudan Burkina Faso Syria Somalia Afghanistan North Korea Libya Venezuela Hubei, China Colima, Mexico...

forums.studentdoctor.net

I also know a few pharm students who already have jobs (such as retail) lined up after they graduate, and they make this seem like the norm rather than the exception.

Do they have an ironclad written offer? Have they read their employer's business plan and projected financials to be confident enough that their employer won't close down? The job market has changed drastically in the last 4 years, and it certainly can in the next 4.

Statistically, job growth is expected to be negative in the next 10 years. Pharmacy schools are dumping 15,000 new grads onto the market each year. The vast majority of pharmacists are nowhere close to retirement age. It's easy to hear about people getting jobs when only have of them manage. The other half will be unemployed or underemployed.

"It's a mathematical certainty." -Thomas Andrews

 

[DagS132]

You know what would be great addition to these forums is a poll or survey that keeps track of the status of pharmacy student's post graduation. One that would keep track of unemployment time after getting licensed and the time it took to get a job. It would really be the nail in the coffin for anyone wondering if this profession is still worth it.

 

[MilknCheerios]

It's hard to predict what will happen in the future. I graduated 7 years ago and I'd say roughly 75% of my class had jobs or a residency lined up. Keep in mind that many of those positions were probably not their first choices or full time positions. Fast forward to now, I don't keep track of all my class mates, but everyone in my circle of 10ish friends are still employed pharmacists. Some have moved or gone part time to support a family but no one is going back to school or doing something completely different-- it's still their main source of income.

I still retain the belief that if you're willing to move, have a solid work ethic, and persistent, there will be a position for you.

 

[rxkrafted]

You know what would be great addition to these forums is a poll or survey that keeps track of the status of pharmacy student's post graduation. One that would keep track of unemployment time after getting licensed and the time it took to get a job. It would really be the nail in the coffin for anyone wondering if this profession is still worth it.

That wouldn't work because many of those that are unemployed would not be inclined to report it and also would be spending their time job hunting. There is already a nail in the coffin for the pharmacy job market. I don't know why you pre-pharms need more convincing.... Just go ask your local pharmacists both in retail and hospital settings. You'll probably might encounter a retail pharmacist look you straight in the eye and tell you to run. My coworkers and friends (who are also pharmacists) always talk about how this job market sucks and how they know people who got laid off because they don't have enough hours for everyone.

 

[deleted898085]

All 2018 graduates at my school have jobs, not all full-time. But about 50% of 2019 have jobs so far and it's been 8 months since they graduated. They still come to school for career fair which is for 2020 graduates including myself. Walgreens says they're not hiring straight to my face. CVS says they're considering internal interns only. Others don't say anything at all. Rite Aid says not to look for jobs online, those posts are for showing only.
Try to talk to people who graduate in 2019, 2020,... Not 2018 and before!

 

[mentos]

All 2018 graduates at my school have jobs, not all full-time. But about 50% of 2019 have jobs so far and it's been 8 months since they graduated. They still come to school for career fair which is for 2020 graduates including myself. Walgreens says they're not hiring straight to my face. CVS says they're considering internal interns only. Others don't say anything at all. Rite Aid says not to look for jobs online, those posts are for showing only.
Try to talk to people who graduate in 2019, 2020,... Not 2018 and before!

Wow 2019 graduates go back to their school for career fair? I'm surprised they're allowed to.

 

[RxEvileye]

This has been posted elsewhere but the school websites can help give a ballpark of at least what students report in an immediate post-graduate survey to their schools, with varying methods:

Pharmacist Employment Data by College

There are many other threads about the job market, and take this forum with a grain of salt. My UCSF class did very well overall, but not everyone stays in the same area and of course there can be delays/underemployment for a period of time.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

In any aspect of life, if you work hard, someone will find you and you will be employed.

 

[deleted898085]

Wow 2019 graduates go back to their school for career fair? I'm surprised they're allowed to.

Yes, everyone is invited including recently graduated students.

 

[deleted898085]

In any aspect of life, if you work hard, someone will find you and you will be employed.

I hope so too. Each of us owes an average of $200K @7.06%.
The school told us to file tax for 2019 and if we make $0, we don't have to pay when the grace period is over in 11/2020.
We don't want to make zero payment. We want to work hard and pay at least all the interest portion which is $14k/year or $1200/month ASAP.
It's like paying rent without living in the apartment.

 

[deleted898085]

This has been posted elsewhere but the school websites can help give a ballpark of at least what students report in an immediate post-graduate survey to their schools, with varying methods:

Pharmacist Employment Data by College

There are many other threads about the job market, and take this forum with a grain of salt. My UCSF class did very well overall, but not everyone stays in the same area and of course there can be delays/underemployment for a period of time.

So UCSF 2019 post grad plans:
Pharmacy jobs: 13%
To me, residency is a scam. It's a way to work with less pay and no guarantee of getting a job. People could have a job without residency before.

 

[TerryTerry]

In any aspect of life, if you work hard, someone will find you and you will be employed.

He is correct. I am glad he didn`t say anything about being a pharmacist.

 

[Timbo]

How many friends is "multiple friends"? What makes them feel confident when even BLS indicates job growth is 0% while pharmacy schools are still graduating PharmDs in record numbers? And even if they do get jobs, would they be okay with only making $40/hr because FYI salaries are going down too. If you are confused about conflicting anecdotes here is some reading for you:

Job projections based on statistics:

• A Looming Joblessness Crisis for New Pharmacy Graduates and the Implications It Holds for the Academy
• Trends in the Pharmacist Workforce and Pharmacy Education
• HRSA Allied Health Workforce Projections, 2016-2030: Pharmacists

Official statements from national organizations:

• From APhA, AACP, ACPE: Joint Response to Petitioners Seeking Moratorium on Accreditation of New PharmD Institutions
• From ACPE: Opinion: PharmD Quality vs Quantity

News reports about the profession:

• Rural pharmacies closing https://health.usnews.com/health-ca...es-are-closing-where-does-that-leave-patients
• 185 Fred's pharmacies close Walgreens to Purchase Pharmacy Files of 185 Fred's Pharmacies
• 600 Rite Aids close Walgreens to close 600 Rite Aid stores
• 42 Shopko pharmacies close Kroger buying piece of Shopko's pharmacy business. Prescriptions will move to Pick 'n Save, Metro Market and Copps stores in Wisconsin.
• CVS closes 46 locations: CVS closures: 46 locations closing, including 3 in Alabama; complete list
• Shopko bankruptcy – 145 pharmacies close: Shopko Bankruptcy Puts 146 Pharmacies In Play For CVS, Walgreens And Kroger
• Walmart layoff 40% of its pharmacists: Walmart Layoffs: Retailer To Eliminate Up To 40 Percent Of Its Pharmacists
• Healthmart closes 30 pharmacies, putting 300 employees out of a job HealthPartners to close 30 retail pharmacies
• The Pharmacist Is Out: Supermarkets Close Pharmacy Counters The Pharmacist Is Out: Supermarkets Close Pharmacy Counters

 

[deleted898085]

Working hard doesn't correlate with getting a job. You get a job because you know the right people or interned at the right place and they liked you. It's a game and there are currently a lot of players and very few winners. The winnings also aren't that great. Retail pharmacies are closing down left and right and even if you do get a job you'll face hour cuts, no raises, benefit cutting, horrible/understaffed worked conditions, neverending headaches, working without pay, toxic company culture. And you get to go to school and study your butt off for 6-8 years and go into six figures of debt for the luxury. Why do that when you can get a 4 year bachelor's degree in computer science and then have literally the complete opposite of all the above for a career? Did you know some tech companies now offer unlimited vacation. They actually meet with employees and force them to take more vacations if they aren't taking enough. You get to negotiate. You get raises. You get stock options at companies that are actually growing. Leave pharmacy.

I think most students who are admitted to pharmacy schools today cannot handle computer science engineering! It's way too hard to (study and) work compared to working as a pharmacy tech/retail pharmacist.

 

[deleted898085]

I was in electronic engineering in my own language and now I'm in pharmacy in English. Pharmacy is way easier.
I agree. Chemistry is harder than physics.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Uh... chemistry courses are some of the hardest around. I didn't go to one of the newer scam schools, but I can assure you that most pharmacy programs are tough despite the lax admissions criteria nowadays. A bachelors degree in computer science should be easier. Going into pharmacy because you think getting a bachelors in computer science is too hard is *****ic.

Computer Science- easy??? people outside only think everyone is a programmer.. there is a lot more that goes into it. There are hard core mathematics principles that are applied..

 

[deleted562805]

Hi everyone,

I realize many people on this forum are pessimistic about the job prospects for pharmacy students, but I just wanted a clarification since I have been talking with multiple friends who are pre-pharm who have been saying they feel confident that they can get a job as a pharmacist, as long as they work hard. I also know a few pharm students who already have jobs (such as retail) lined up after they graduate, and they make this seem like the norm rather than the exception. To what extent is this actually true? Do people who attend reputable pharm schools (i.e. UMich, UCSF, UW) reliably obtain jobs in the areas where those institutions are located? I may be slightly confused because the posts on this forum seem to greatly contradict the interactions I have been having in real life with people.

Please look at the BLS stats. Job growth 0% from 2019 to 2028. You want to really have inside scoop on the job market. Become a pharm tech and talk to a DM in a retail chain or become a pharmacy tech and talk to the Pharmacy manager in a hospital. These are people who will hire you in the future, and they have a better scope of the job outlook compared to your friends or any new pharmacy graduate. Paul Tran is also good resource. He has years of pharmacy experience and he says it is not a good profession if you are taking out loans.

Please stop thinking that pharmacy school is like medical school. The if I work hard( I.e. get good grades/GPA), then I will get a job. Only med school, grades/scores really matter and determine your future practice. Every other field requires work experience plus grades: Nursing and CS.
But pharmacy is the exception to even CS and nursing. Connections and strong network will get you a job and not grades.

 

[deleted562805]

Uh... chemistry courses are some of the hardest around. I didn't go to one of the newer scam schools, but I can assure you that most pharmacy programs are tough despite the lax admissions criteria nowadays. A bachelors degree in computer science should be easier. Going into pharmacy because you think getting a bachelors in computer science is too hard is *****ic.

I doubt it. Computer Science involves way more analytical thought and application and zero memorization than compared to pharmacy

 

[RxEvileye]

So UCSF 2019 post grad plans:
Pharmacy jobs: 13%
To me, residency is a scam. It's a way to work with less pay and no guarantee of getting a job. People could have a job without residency before.

I have addressed most of your sentiment in this thread if you would like to discuss placement stats further: USC vs UCSF (and other CA Schools)

I agree that sometimes residency is used by institutions, especially those with heavy staffing requirements, to fill spots for cheaper and then not hire most of the residents. This is a symptom of not just "not having enough clinical jobs" to justify residency in general, but a lack of dedicated residency funding and infrastructure like how medicine has it set up. Most residency sites do not have Education Department support, dedicated time during shifts for resident teaching or conferences, etc. It is going to take time.

I disagree that the whole system is a scam in the long run, and think we need to be highly trained for more clinical positions, especially those like psychiatry and oncology that generally now require a PGY-2. For me, just PGY-1 was a pathway to a position where I actually use my knowledge, perspective, and experience beyond just APPEs, and I had a great residency which I do not regret at all.

 

[deleted898085]

I have addressed most of your sentiment in this thread if you would like to discuss placement stats further: USC vs UCSF (and other CA Schools)

I agree that sometimes residency is used by institutions, especially those with heavy staffing requirements, to fill spots for cheaper and then not hire most of the residents. This is a symptom of not just "not having enough clinical jobs" to justify residency in general, but a lack of dedicated residency funding and infrastructure like how medicine has it set up. Most residency sites do not have Education Department support, dedicated time during shifts for resident teaching or conferences, etc. It is going to take time.

I disagree that the whole system is a scam in the long run, and think we need to be highly trained for more clinical positions, especially those like psychiatry and oncology that generally now require a PGY-2. For me, just PGY-1 was a pathway to a position where I actually use my knowledge, perspective, and experience beyond just APPEs, and I had a great residency which I do not regret at all.

They can do PGY-1 or 2 or 3. But the pay has to be higher. They have loans with high interest. Also, they should be guaranteed to have the job after pgy1, 2,3,4...
If not, residency is a scam!

 

[PharmtoCS]

Completing a residency is merely trying to make the best out of a bad situation that could be avoided in the first place by not going to pharmacy school.

It’s like being one of the lucky ones to get on a lifeboat as the Titanic sinks. Even if you do get on one, lifeboats are prone to capsizing.

 

[deleted562805]

I have addressed most of your sentiment in this thread if you would like to discuss placement stats further: USC vs UCSF (and other CA Schools)

I agree that sometimes residency is used by institutions, especially those with heavy staffing requirements, to fill spots for cheaper and then not hire most of the residents. This is a symptom of not just "not having enough clinical jobs" to justify residency in general, but a lack of dedicated residency funding and infrastructure like how medicine has it set up. Most residency sites do not have Education Department support, dedicated time during shifts for resident teaching or conferences, etc. It is going to take time.

I disagree that the whole system is a scam in the long run, and think we need to be highly trained for more clinical positions, especially those like psychiatry and oncology that generally now require a PGY-2. For me, just PGY-1 was a pathway to a position where I actually use my knowledge, perspective, and experience beyond just APPEs, and I had a great residency which I do not regret at all.

I think the lack of funding is due to CMS not paying for hospital pharmacy residency programs unlike medical residency programs and I think schools should now require PGY-1 as mandatory to practice pharmacy in a hospital setting and not hinting as though it’s optional

 

[RxEvileye]

I think the lack of funding is due to CMS not paying for hospital pharmacy residency programs unlike medical residency programs and I think schools should now require PGY-1 as mandatory to practice pharmacy in a hospital setting and not hinting as though it’s optional

Yes, the CMS funding and being required for hospital/other clinical settings is what I was alluding to. Pharmacy organizations are slowly moving toward residency + board certification requirements but it is not there yet.

Completing a residency is merely trying to make the best out of a bad situation that could be avoided in the first place by not going to pharmacy school.

It’s like being one of the lucky ones to get on a lifeboat as the Titanic sinks. Even if you do get on one, lifeboats are prone to capsizing.

Glad I am on the lifeboat and smooth sailing so far, but still support creating more fancy residency boats for everyone to be on. Maybe we can all water ski or jetski too.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

In any aspect of life, if you work hard, someone will find you and you will be employed.

Negative. Usually if you work smart then someone will find you and you will be employed. Working smart, of course, usually means working hard. But it also means being a self-starter which means knowing how to network, build your personal brand etc.

During pharmacy school I had several classmates who "worked hard." They were the ones studying 8-10 hours a day. They were the ones setting the curves for classes and graduating with darn near 4.0 GPAs. But they were also the ones thinking that "so long as I work hard I will get what I want." They were the ones who didn't match for residency. They were the ones who didn't have jobs by the time graduation rolled around. Why? Because they had subpar soft skills but thought they would be heavily recruited by companies/residencies based on being "top" students in our class. Meanwhile those who went out to partied every weekend ended up with jobs or residencies from networking through their fraternity, internship or personal connections. Just goes to show that pharmacy is NOT a merit-based profession.

 

[deleted562805]

Negative. Usually if you work smart then someone will find you and you will be employed. Working smart, of course, usually means working hard. But it also means being a self-starter which means knowing how to network, build your personal brand etc.

During pharmacy school I had several classmates who "worked hard." They were the ones studying 8-10 hours a day. They were the ones setting the curves for classes and graduating with darn near 4.0 GPAs. But they were also the ones thinking that "so long as I work hard I will get what I want." They were the ones who didn't match for residency. They were the ones who didn't have jobs by the time graduation rolled around. Why? Because they had subpar soft skills but thought they would be heavily recruited by companies/residencies based on being "top" students in our class. Meanwhile those who went out to partied every weekend ended up with jobs or residencies from networking through their fraternity, internship or personal connections. Just goes to show that pharmacy is NOT a merit-based profession.

Yeah, I agree, but pharmacy should be merit based especially when a Publix Pharmacy is dispensing methotrexate instead of metformin.

 

[Sine Cura]

If anything pharmacy is more of the dumb getting dumber especially in retail.

 

[BC_89]

Hi everyone,

I realize many people on this forum are pessimistic about the job prospects for pharmacy students, but I just wanted a clarification since I have been talking with multiple friends who are pre-pharm who have been saying they feel confident that they can get a job as a pharmacist, as long as they work hard. I also know a few pharm students who already have jobs (such as retail) lined up after they graduate, and they make this seem like the norm rather than the exception. To what extent is this actually true? Do people who attend reputable pharm schools (i.e. UMich, UCSF, UW) reliably obtain jobs in the areas where those institutions are located? I may be slightly confused because the posts on this forum seem to greatly contradict the interactions I have been having in real life with people.

If you are willing to work and network beyond the confines of one state you will be ok. Most may start you with lower than past wages with lower hours, some per diem with undesirable locations but in the end you will be ok if this really is a career "aspect" you have beyond the simple-tude of clocking in and out.

The key complaint is the debt to income ratio. At what point is it ok to seek a specific degree at a specific cost? That's for you to decide and that is what gets people stressed.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

If you are willing to work and network beyond the confines of one state you will be ok. Most may start you with lower than past wages with lower hours, some per diem with undesirable locations but in the end you will be ok if this really is a career "aspect" you have beyond the simple-tude of clocking in and out.

The key complaint is the debt to income ratio. At what point is it ok to seek a specific degree at a specific cost? That's for you to decide and that is what gets people stressed.

The key here is that most pre-health students go to a profession because their parents tell them that a certain profession makes a lot of money... Or they see shows like scrubs with good looking people... and see the romantic aspect of life... unfortunately that is not the case.

 

[mentos]

The key here is that most pre-health students go to a profession because their parents tell them that a certain profession makes a lot of money... Or they see shows like scrubs with good looking people... and see the romantic aspect of life... unfortunately that is not the case.

Or they see those stupid "top 10 highest paying professions" lists that has pharmacy manager at 2 and staff pharmacist at 4.