Working indefinitely as a Postdoc & Attending?

[deleted728364]

My understanding of obtaining PI-ship is that while it's possible, it's astronomically difficult. Might be a bit pessimistic, but I'm learning that there's a lot of survivorship-bias in academia. While I'm still motivated to pursue the MD/PhD route, I'm realizing it's best not to get one's hopes up regarding the coveted 80/20 split etc.


Anyway, let's say you've completed your PTSP and you're a newly minted attending. What are the limitations of finding a postdoc gig and staying there indefinitely, and supporting yourself by working as an attending 2 or 3 days a week? Your PI is getting free labor, and you're able to work without managing any of the administrative headaches that come with running a lab. You definitely relinquish some scientific freedom, but I can see it as a fair trade. It will definitely take some work finding a postdoc that fits one's long-term interests, but I really don't see any downside beyond that.


I'm pretty sure this is basically an "assistant scientist" role that I've seen at really large labs, but a 3-day/week (academic) physician salary is likely a lot better than an assistant scientist salary. It sounds like a pretty nice backup plan in case PI-ship doesn't work out. Thoughts?

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[tr]

You mean you want to volunteer in a lab 2 days/week indefinitely, while working 60%fte clinically? Seems like it would be hard to accomplish much this way...

 

[OddNath]

I know someone who basically did this-- she was doing a post-doc in a basic science lab (with a piddling T32 salary), then did locums inpatient work one week per month (in another state). She kept this up for like 2 years. Now she does 100% clinical work.

 

[deleted728364]

Would you really accomplish that much more if you were a PI with a 40/60 split? I remember reading that most physician scientists don’t get more than 50% protected time.

Is an attending (with <50% protected time) that has to deal with the pains of running a lab really more productive than an attending with the same protected time but zero administrative duties?

You’re basically trading some salary and scientific freedom for a better work/life balance and job security (assuming your postdoc position is secure).

Even if this situation isn't sustainable for an entire attending's career, I can see how it might be an advantage compared to the average postdoc, who likely can't stay in their position due to a lower salary. I suppose in some way this attending-postdocs more opportunities to fight for PI-ship, since they can stick around longer?

 

[tr]

Would you really accomplish that much more if you were a PI with a 40/60 split? I remember reading that most physician scientists don’t get more than 50% protected time.

Is an attending (with <50% protected time) that has to deal with the pains of running a lab really more productive than an attending with the same protected time but zero administrative duties?

You’re basically trading some salary and scientific freedom for a better work/life balance and job security (assuming your postdoc position is secure).

Even if this situation isn't sustainable for an entire attending's career, I can see how it might be an advantage compared to the average postdoc, who likely can't stay in their position due to a lower salary. I suppose in some way this attending-postdocs more opportunities to fight for PI-ship, since they can stick around longer?

Your last paragraph is correct. This is a pretty common scenario: funded postdoc/fellowship with 80% poorly paid lab time and a clinical component (usually 20%) to boost salary.

But you originally suggested indefinite volunteering for 2-3 days per week while supporting yourself with clinical care 2-3 days per week. I think it would be really hard to get anything done in lab if you were only available 2-3 days per week. Moreover I think you would eventually get sick of volunteering your time to be someone else's experiment monkey. Also I think a PI would be really wary of such an arrangement. If they aren't paying you they have a limited amount of control over what you are doing and might feel the arrangement could be more trouble than it is worth. I also think there could be bureaucratic obstacles (e g., getting access to building facilities when you have no formal employment or job title on the basic science side) since what you describe is pretty far out from the norm.

 

[tortuga87]

I suggest you look around the internet about what engineers do when they do not want to go into management. It's basically the same issue under a different guise.

 

[CheGuevaraMD]

Most clinicians that fail to make the postdoc to PI leap become some sort of permanent co-I. This is usually involves clinical or health services research as it's easier to be a clinical consultant/expert on an applied project rather than a basic project. It seems much more likely that you'd simply wash out of basic science.

 

[Lucca]

at that point why not just go into industry if you still want to do majority research but be paid well

 

[dl2dp2]

You can do it but:
1) if you are doing a post-doc that require clinical training (i.e. study physician, etc), you'll be able to get a real percent effort for that, so no need to volunteer, and you'll eventually be able to hop on someone's grant as a Co-I with part-time salary support. Typically NIH funded clinical time is lower salary than a private physician, but it'll be within a certain ballpark.

2) if you are trying to do a postdoc in a basic lab, you'll not get this job. As no part-time postdoc/associate scientist job is typically available because the market is oversaturated with people with this set of skills and willing to work full time for 50k. I.e. people would rather pay 50k for a full-time postdoc who can maintain a cell culture 6 days a week than 25k for two part-time postdocs to maintain a cell culture 3 days a week.

3) if you have specific skills in a specialized niche in a basic lab--classically right now this consists of highly quantitative skills, it may be possible to get partial salary support for 2 days a week of work. As someone said, this would be very similar to a part-time industry software engineering position. However, this salary support is typically lower compared to the industry counterpart, and demand is not as high, as very often PIs are able to find a rotating crew of junior engineers for temporary postdocs at lower salary support.

4) Recognize that academic PIs don't want to maintain perpetual postdoc level staff. It's better for the PI to train postdocs and have them occupy new faculty positions. Their CVs are often judged both by incoming trainees and also the large community based on the alumni list. Industry PIs may want to maintain staff scientists, but you'll be paid better and they don't like hiring part time.