Will paid intern pharmacist positions go away in the future and cause a ripple effect?

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I have seen and heard that many chains and hospitals have been cutting hours and positions for intern pharmacists as the saturation problem gets worse and as corporations seek to continually shave operating costs. This leads me to believe that within the next decade, we may see paid intern positions being phased out altogether and replaced instead by volunteer intern positions. So if it is getting harder and harder for students to find internships, and schools also have a harder time finding APPE rotations for their students (especially because as new schools pop up, they don’t “create” new APPE sites; rather, they leech off of/bribe already existing institutions to take their students), then I’d imagine the real world experience that students are getting prior to graduation is plummeting. And that’s not even considering the quality of admitted students but that’s a different topic altogether.

Point being, I think there can be a good argument for residencies in all setting types to be mandated in the future as a way to standardize work experience that students are no longer getting while in school. Those residencies which currently do not use their residents as “cheap labor” may change their philosophy sooner or later. PGY-1 residencies may be the new “internships.” And the term “residency” as it is used today will come to mean a PGY-4 in the future. We’ve already seen variations of this start to take effect in the form of grad interns (who continue to work as grad interns even after getting licensed).

Do you think this is the future of pharmacy?

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[owlegrad]

We’ve already seen variations of this start to take effect in the form of grad interns (who continue to work as grad interns even after getting licensed).

Has that started? I ask because we are in the process of hiring a “tech” who is really a grad intern and the director mentioned he may want to keep working in that role while he looks for a pharmacist job (I wasn’t sure how serious she was though).

The thought shocked me and I doubted anyone would do that but maybe I am wrong. Has anyone actually seen this in real life?

 

[owlegrad]

Also I am going to move this to our lovely job market thread.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Has that started? I ask because we are in the process of hiring a “tech” who is really a grad intern and the director mentioned he may want to keep working in that role while he looks for a pharmacist job (I wasn’t sure how serious she was though).

The thought shocked me and I doubted anyone would do that but maybe I am wrong. Has anyone actually seen this in real life?

This has happened more in the format of being allocated a certain number of grad intern hours once graduating, then when new grads get licensed and ask for a title change being ghosted or left on grad intern payroll. How long grad interns can work in that state I’m not sure; haven’t heard of anyone working in that status for 1 year+ but maybe others have more insight.

 

[MatCauthon]

paid interns are often just doing tech work, but they should continue to be paid for that. grad intern is nothing new and I've never heard anyone doing it longer than 6 months to a year. I dragged out grad intern for 4 months and my managers were just about to cut me from the teat if I took

 

[GravityBeetle]

I don't see the need for intern pharmacists if there are no need for pharmacists. An intern can't do much more than a tech despite getting paid a significantly higher wage. Furthermore training properly and scheduling them is an issue since their availability is limited due to being in pharmacy school. The only reason companies hired interns was so that they would have well trained pharmacists after they graduate right? The previous company I worked for let go a bunch of interns recently and limited intern hours to 4 hours a week each. In another district, they just aren't hiring any new interns this year period which is unprecedented. I wonder how that will affect class of 2023 who are starting school this year. If there are no intern jobs available there's going to be a bunch of pharmacists graduating with zero pharmacy experience.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

I don't see the need for intern pharmacists if there are no need for pharmacists. An intern can't do much more than a tech despite getting paid a significantly higher wage. Furthermore training properly and scheduling them is an issue since their availability is limited due to being in pharmacy school. The only reason companies hired interns was so that they would have well trained pharmacists after they graduate right? The previous company I worked for let go a bunch of interns recently and limited intern hours to 4 hours a week each. In another district, they just aren't hiring any new interns this year period which is unprecedented. I wonder how that will affect class of 2023 who are starting school this year. If there are no intern jobs available there's going to be a bunch of pharmacists graduating with zero pharmacy experience.

My point exactly. Why bother having interns on payroll if they can’t commit to 24+ hours a week, need to take every 3 weeks off to study for exams and don’t add any value to the pharmacy because they can’t do the final verification of scripts? Seems like a liability more than an asset to me. Which is why I predict that intern positions will either become volunteer positions only or be phased out altogether.

 

[VA77]

I would stay as an intern unless I knew I had a job lined up. No need to race to the NAPLEX or MPJE.

Some money as an intern beats no money as a licensed pharmacist.

 

[owlegrad]

Seems like a liability more than an asset to me.

Then you are badly misusing your interns. They can take a huge load off the pharmacist when trained properly. Things they can do that a technician legally cannot in every state I am aware of:

Counsel
Transfers (some states allow techs to do this)
Take doctor calls (maybe some states allow techs to do this? Unsure)
Give shots (not all states allow interns to do this though)
And some states do allow interns to verify with pharmacist supervision

So really the only thing interns cannot do is verify, in most states. So they can do most of what a pharmacist does. How is that more of a liability than an asset? Do you really work with interns at all?

Although I do think we will see more and more interns working as techs because that is even cheaper for the company than interns and why not?

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

Has that started? I ask because we are in the process of hiring a “tech” who is really a grad intern and the director mentioned he may want to keep working in that role while he looks for a pharmacist job (I wasn’t sure how serious she was though).

The thought shocked me and I doubted anyone would do that but maybe I am wrong. Has anyone actually seen this in real life?

I hope this tech/grad intern is performing data entry and not just filling meds...

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

Then you are badly misusing your interns. They can take a huge load off the pharmacist when trained properly. Things they can do that a technician legally cannot in every state I am aware of:

Counsel
Transfers (some states allow techs to do this)
Take doctor calls (maybe some states allow techs to do this? Unsure)
Give shots (not all states allow interns to do this though)
And some states do allow interns to verify with pharmacist supervision

So really the only thing interns cannot do is verify, in most states. So they can do most of what a pharmacist does. How is that more of a liability than an asset? Do you really work with interns at all?

Although I do think we will see more and more interns working as techs because that is even cheaper for the company than interns and why not?

The operative word here is “when trained properly.” I’m not arguing with the hypothetical value of a trained intern but when interns are only working an average of 4-8 hours a week then you’re effectively spending more time training them than them bringing value to the pharmacy. Couple that with the average lifespan of an intern being 1-2 years and it’s easy to see why a pharmacy would prefer to hire a tech that would stay for 5+ years than an intern, no matter how good they are.

As a side note, most interns will not be able to handle counseling or anything “clinical” if they are P1’s or P2’s, and as others have noted, if there are more and more APPE students who clearly are not prepared/have basic clinical competencies down (especially those coming from diploma mills) then an intern is going to be no better.

 

[confettiflyer]

Can’t speak for retail, but my inpatient view:

1) interns are a rounding error in our budget, and for institutional liability issues, we keep them folded in as employees (designated as on call/zero hours)

2) residents cost more money than we save on salary in terms of person-hours spent maintaining accreditation and actual training of said pharmacists. Eventual cost savings may not even be realized as we don’t directly hire our residents 100% of the time (they go elsewhere-so that institution gains a fully trained rph at our “expense”)

But it goes both ways, we pick up some good residency trained peeps as well.

But to your point, residencies are de facto mandated for inpatient work...mostly from an applicant competitiveness standpoint. All things being equal for practitioners
Our exceptions have been internal candidates (former interns) that we’ve deemed worthy to train.

 

[confettiflyer]

I can’t edit the above post properly, but second to last paragraph should be “new-ish grads” not practitioners

 

[owlegrad]

I hope this tech/grad intern is performing data entry and not just filling meds...

Interesting you should ask, when I pitched the idea of hiring him my suggestion was fill tech but the director decided OE would be better. I was surprised because while that will be better for him it seems odd to me to train someone to do OE who is only going to work maybe 3 months or so. Still I am happy for him, for us OE is more money and obviously it will be more beneficial than just filling.

 

[owlegrad]

The operative word here is “when trained properly.”

This reminds me of an intern I had at CVS who I literally had to forbid to council. She had all kinds of crazy stuff she would spew. She told one patient that complained about her medications to always request brand because brand is better. She told someone else to take airborne to prevent getting sick. She also loved to recommend homeopathic stuff.

I don't recall all the crazy she shared but at some point I just told her when she was the pharmacist she could spread as much misinformation as she wanted but while it was my license she wasn't allowed to answer any questions unless I approved the answer beforehand. It was a shame too, except for that she was a very good intern. Hard worker, efficient, etc. Just drank too hard from the Dr. Oz well.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

This reminds me of an intern I had at CVS who I literally had to forbid to council. She had all kinds of crazy stuff she would spew. She told one patient that complained about her medications to always request brand because brand is better. She told someone else to take airborne to prevent getting sick. She also loved to recommend homeopathic stuff.

I don't recall all the crazy she shared but at some point I just told her when she was the pharmacist she could spread as much misinformation as she wanted but while it was my license she wasn't allowed to answer any questions unless I approved the answer beforehand. It was a shame too, except for that she was a very good intern. Hard worker, efficient, etc. Just drank too hard from the Dr. Oz well.

Those types of interns are typically relegated to the “fill prescriptions only” duty, in which case techs can do a lot more than those interns.

 

[owlegrad]

Those types of interns are typically relegated to the “fill prescriptions only” duty, in which case techs can do a lot more than those interns.

She could still do transfers and take Doctor calls. I don’t know what interns have done to you to make you so bitter but most paid interns I have worked with I would prefer to most techs I have worked with. Of course there are plenty of exceptions on both side (really bad interns and really good techs).

 

[PharmtoCS]

All the new schools have to place their students somewhere for APPEs. Why hire a paid intern when you can get a bunch of unpaid ones?

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

Interesting you should ask, when I pitched the idea of hiring him my suggestion was fill tech but the director decided OE would be better. I was surprised because while that will be better for him it seems odd to me to train someone to do OE who is only going to work maybe 3 months or so. Still I am happy for him, for us OE is more money and obviously it will be more beneficial than just filling.

There's definitely a learning curve in OE but being able to navigate the system, processing orders, and handling calls would definitely take a load off of you. With this job market, who knows if it will be only for 3 months, might be longer!

 

[IDontHateYou]

I don't think position will just "go away" entirely. There will probably always be some company that will still like to utilize interns and there are many instances where interns are very useful.

I just got licensed literally a day ago. I worked at my store religiously on weekends for my first two years in pharmacy school. My PDM loved it because he didn't have to worry much about looking for a tech to cover weekends. By third year I cut back on my hours but I still worked every other weekend. I became very comfortable with counseling and my RPh encouraged me to get used to it. If I ever didn't know something, I never pretended to know, I always referred back to the pharmacist on duty. I helped patients find OTC products that they we're looking for that techs didn't know about. I counseled on basic things such as Metformin main side-effects and OTC products. I did transfers and took verbal orders and I always repeated back the verbal order to the prescriber to make sure everything was correct. I also worked at other stores during summer breaks and helped out at my home store when they needed coverage. I don't think that interns are useless. I most certainly wasn't.

By fourth year I was highly recommended by at least seven pharmacist in my district and got my offer about 9 months before graduating. I am already trained in how to work the system and understand how to be a pharmacist clinically as well as administratively and operationally from all my years of shadowing pharmacist in my company. I know the top 200 drugs and a lot of that has come from my internship and being exposed to a lot of brand-generics.

The thing is, and this is where I do agree with some of the post here...My manager had precepted many students from my same school and he said that 75% of them we're horrible even on APPE's and he seemed baffled and surprise that they we're in the same class as me. My point being, you may be correct when you say most interns are horrible, because from my understanding many of them are. However, you do have very good exceptional interns that later make great additions to the company as pharmacist later on down the road.

Not all interns are equal

 

[sozetone]

The companies dont care anymore about safety. If it's a cost they can cut and get away with it, they will. Then they will dump more work on you, and preach all day about patient safety.....lol just get out while you are young, have vitality, and strength. I see these poor older pharms who are decent pharms, but really are at no point in their life to start over...yep the companies are working on them too.....they will burn them out soon.....

 

[IDontHateYou]

The companies dont care anymore about safety. If it's a cost they can cut and get away with it, they will. Then they will dump more work on you, and preach all day about patient safety.....lol just get out while you are young, have vitality, and strength. I see these poor older pharms who are decent pharms, but really are at no point in their life to start over...yep the companies are working on them too.....they will burn them out soon.....

Cant say your wrong lol.

 

[PharmtoCS]

Not all interns are equal

But I can guarantee that companies will try to make our pay equally low - in the case of interns, free.

 

[IDontHateYou]

OP, reminds me of when I was doing my rotation at a hospital last summer (APPE). There we're some pharmacist, like the director and such saying discussing how theres been talk of a PGY-3 residency. LOOOOL. Its getting to the point where yes, I like to remain optimistic but... yea ridiculous lol.

It's like the whole staff hospital positions now. It use to be fine that you could come out of school and work in a hospital staffing and doing clinical work and now you supposedly need a PGY-1 for staffing in a lot of places. A job that people use to do straight out of pharmacy school with no problem suddenly needs additional training. It has nothing to do with the training you get in residency but more about the saturation just increasing competition and now residency has become a way to separate you from the pack. But honestly, in my graduating year, I see so many people doing residency that it's just becoming over-rated now IMO.

meh, but you know.... the pay is still not bad and if you're wise with your money you can still go places. It is what it is. Not really any sense in complaining now, not like it's going to do any good, you know? We all just have to make the best of our situations.

 

[Pharmacy is a Scam]

OP, reminds me of when I was doing my rotation at a hospital last summer (APPE). There we're some pharmacist, like the director and such saying discussing how theres been talk of a PGY-3 residency. LOOOOL. Its getting to the point where yes, I like to remain optimistic but... yea ridiculous lol.

It's like the whole staff hospital positions now. It use to be fine that you could come out of school and work in a hospital staffing and doing clinical work and now you supposedly need a PGY-1 for staffing in a lot of places. A job that people use to do straight out of pharmacy school with no problem suddenly needs additional training. It has nothing to do with the training you get in residency but more about the saturation just increasing competition and now residency has become a way to separate you from the pack. But honestly, in my graduating year, I see so many people doing residency that it's just becoming over-rated now IMO.

meh, but you know.... the pay is still not bad and if you're wise with your money you can still go places. It is what it is. Not really any sense in complaining now, not like it's going to do any good, you know? We all just have to make the best of our situations.

MCPHS started a PGY-3 in med safety last year, so the precedent has already been set. Question is, how soon will others catch on?

 

[sozetone]

OP, reminds me of when I was doing my rotation at a hospital last summer (APPE). There we're some pharmacist, like the director and such saying discussing how theres been talk of a PGY-3 residency. LOOOOL. Its getting to the point where yes, I like to remain optimistic but... yea ridiculous lol.

It's like the whole staff hospital positions now. It use to be fine that you could come out of school and work in a hospital staffing and doing clinical work and now you supposedly need a PGY-1 for staffing in a lot of places. A job that people use to do straight out of pharmacy school with no problem suddenly needs additional training. It has nothing to do with the training you get in residency but more about the saturation just increasing competition and now residency has become a way to separate you from the pack. But honestly, in my graduating year, I see so many people doing residency that it's just becoming over-rated now IMO.

meh, but you know.... the pay is still not bad and if you're wise with your money you can still go places. It is what it is. Not really any sense in complaining now, not like it's going to do any good, you know? We all just have to make the best of our situations.

Nothing to do with competition, if they REALLY cared about pharmacists getting proper training and being successful, they would take more of an active interest in you and help you succeed. instead, you are CHEAP LABOR for a 1-3 year period, depending on how much of a sucker you were to dive deep into 1,2,3 year residency, in the end you will be left to fend for yourself, most will never see proper employment.....it sounds VERY negative, i wish there was another way to tell this, but it is our reality now....you cant hide forever from this. pharmacists have to wake up eventually and make decisions regarding how to get out of this mess.

 

[sozetone]

MCPHS started a PGY-3 in med safety last year, so the precedent has already been set. Question is, how soon will others catch on?

OVER EDUCATION and the cheap labor for hospitals.......most will NEVER see proper, steady employment......

 

[IDontHateYou]

MCPHS started a PGY-3 in med safety last year, so the precedent has already been set. Question is, how soon will others catch on?

wow... yea. thats ridiculous. Those three years you could have spent paying off your student loans but instead 3 years later you are looking for a job lol.

 

[sozetone]

I wonder how the class of 2019 is making out? i started a thread asking them how their job search was going, and got like 1 response....lol.

 

[IDontHateYou]

I wonder how the class of 2019 is making out? i started a thread asking them how their job search was going, and got like 1 response....lol.

Well, I got a job. Most of my friends got jobs too. Then... there are a lot of people I know who still haven't found one yet. We'll see I guess. Pay has gone down though. Years ago pharmacist told me they started making 120 a year, now the pay seems to be around 105k just starting out.

There still some stuff out here in FL, but a lot of people who have set jobs we're already net-working and interning and volunteering during pharmacy school.

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

I wonder how the class of 2019 is making out? i started a thread asking them how their job search was going, and got like 1 response....lol.

I have a job but ~50% of my classmates do not

 

[sozetone]

I have a job but ~50% of my classmates do not

Oh man..... i really feel terrible for them.....it's such a struggle these days. i'm bailing out simply because the companies have made it clear they would prefer to hire lower paid pharmacists. You need to talk to them, you are the younger generation and CAN evoke change....use social media to get the word out. You cant stay quiet forever or people will never understand the problems we face......shout it out man!! LOUD,,,,,

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

Oh man..... i really feel terrible for them.....it's such a struggle these days. i'm bailing out simply because the companies have made it clear they would prefer to hire lower paid pharmacists. You need to talk to them, you are the younger generation and CAN evoke change....use social media to get the word out. You cant stay quiet forever or people will never understand the problems we face......shout it out man!! LOUD,,,,,

Yeah it's pretty rough here. I'm not close with much of the class of '18 but I know at least one collecting unemployment and have to imagine there are quite a few who are either doing that or not working with their degree.

To be honest I'm not really sure what you hope to change through social media though. Are you saying just to convince people not to go to pharmacy school? I definitely do that whenever I get the chance but that's about as effective as the prepharm board here. They typically either don't believe that the market is as bad as it is or they don't care. Hell, I was warning classmates who didn't work throughout school that they would be in this position once graduation came around. They saw how tight the market was every day and still didn't believe me.

I'm seriously open to any ideas that you have but I just don't know how to actually help.

 

[sozetone]

Yeah it's pretty rough here. I'm not close with much of the class of '18 but I know at least one collecting unemployment and have to imagine there are quite a few who are either doing that or not working with their degree.

To be honest I'm not really sure what you hope to change through social media though. Are you saying just to convince people not to go to pharmacy school? I definitely do that whenever I get the chance but that's about as effective as the prepharm board here. They typically either don't believe that the market is as bad as it is or they don't care. Hell, I was warning classmates who didn't work throughout school that they would be in this position once graduation came around. They saw how tight the market was every day and still didn't believe me.

I'm seriously open to any ideas that you have but I just don't know how to actually help.

You may be right , you can talk until your blue in the face, but kids are kids....and at that age entering school, say 23---26, they are weak and naive. They simply do not understand how the world works, and dont bother to do any research of their own. I suppose they also think this is all dreamed up and they will somehow magically end up with stable employment. you make a lot of mistakes growing up, but this is one that will haunt them FOREVER....like herpes....the gift that keeps on giving!.....lol

 

[WorthlessOxygen]

You may be right , you can talk until your blue in the face, but kids are kids....and at that age entering school, say 23---26, they are weak and naive. They simply do not understand how the world works, and dont bother to do any research of their own. I suppose they also think this is all dreamed up and they will somehow magically end up with stable employment. you make a lot of mistakes growing up, but this is one that will haunt them FOREVER....like herpes....the gift that keeps on giving!.....lol

Ouch, I'm 23...