Will a PhD reduce residency length?

[Falco2525]

Hello all! I will be a first year med student next year and am entering with the goal of becoming a neurosurgeon. I have spent much time with a neurosurgeon seeing all aspects of his work. I am working with him this entire summer writing papers and seeing patients in clinic and in the OR. I know this is the type of physician I want to be (note I have spent much time in several fields of medicine through preceptorships)

My question stems from a suggestion offered by the neurosurgeon I am working for who suggested that it would be beneficial for me to get my PhD in a neuroscience field because it would reduce the residency length by eliminating the research years. Does anyone know if this is the case? Is it a guarantee that the research years can be avoided if a PhD in an appropriate field is achieved?

Thanks!

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[taXi]

Hello Falco; congratulations on starting medical school! As a fourth year MD/PhD student, also interested in neurosurgery, I will offer my perspective.
First, getting the PhD should not be viewed as a "short cut" in any way. If you read some of the posts in the physician-scientist forum, you will quickly see that the dual degree path is not for everyone. It is a huge committment of your time and intellectual efforts. If you truly love basic science research, and hope to incorporate it into your future career, the MD/PhD path is an excellent one to take.

Regarding residency, there are very few that do not have a year of research built in. Those that do not would not be the sort of place an MD/PhD would aim for. Consider: you spent an extra 3-5 years in medical school to train as a basic scientist--you should want to use this training. Which brings up the next point: it does not make mathematical sense to spend 3-5 years extra in med school with the goal of shaving time off your training--most neurosurgical residencies only have a year of research built in.

Those residencies that do have the year of research built in are exactly where a physician-scientist would seek to match. Additionally, many MD/PhDs that do a surgical residency of any flavor do an actual post-doctoral fellowship during the research portion of residency training. A meaningful post-doc will likely take longer than a year, so many mudphuds actually do 2 years of research. The benefit of this is that if your publication record is impressive, you may be hired as junior faculty when you start your clinical fellowship rather than an R8.

If you do indeed feel that applying to your school's dual degree program is right for you, I would suggest contacting some of the basic scientists at your institution. It will be tough to do much lab work during first year, but it can be done. Try to contact someone with whom you could get something started prior to the start of school that you can then see through in the evenings and on weekends. (And honestly, you can study while running gels, incubating this that or the other thing for an hour, etc etc etc). Getting someone actively involved in your schools MD/PhD program on your side can work wonders (indeed, a classmate of mine did what I have described, applied during first year and was accepted no problem). Show that you are serious and dedicated and you will be taken seriously. PIs want hard workers, so if you prove you are one, they will support your efforts to become slave-labor...er...a physician-scientist!

 

[Falco2525]

Hello Falco; congratulations on starting medical school! As a fourth year MD/PhD student, also interested in neurosurgery, I will offer my perspective.
First, getting the PhD should not be viewed as a "short cut" in any way. If you read some of the posts in the physician-scientist forum, you will quickly see that the dual degree path is not for everyone. It is a huge committment of your time and intellectual efforts. If you truly love basic science research, and hope to incorporate it into your future career, the MD/PhD path is an excellent one to take.

Regarding residency, there are very few that do not have a year of research built in. Those that do not would not be the sort of place an MD/PhD would aim for. Consider: you spent an extra 3-5 years in medical school to train as a basic scientist--you should want to use this training. Which brings up the next point: it does not make mathematical sense to spend 3-5 years extra in med school with the goal of shaving time off your training--most neurosurgical residencies only have a year of research built in.

Those residencies that do have the year of research built in are exactly where a physician-scientist would seek to match. Additionally, many MD/PhDs that do a surgical residency of any flavor do an actual post-doctoral fellowship during the research portion of residency training. A meaningful post-doc will likely take longer than a year, so many mudphuds actually do 2 years of research. The benefit of this is that if your publication record is impressive, you may be hired as junior faculty when you start your clinical fellowship rather than an R8.

If you do indeed feel that applying to your school's dual degree program is right for you, I would suggest contacting some of the basic scientists at your institution. It will be tough to do much lab work during first year, but it can be done. Try to contact someone with whom you could get something started prior to the start of school that you can then see through in the evenings and on weekends. (And honestly, you can study while running gels, incubating this that or the other thing for an hour, etc etc etc). Getting someone actively involved in your schools MD/PhD program on your side can work wonders (indeed, a classmate of mine did what I have described, applied during first year and was accepted no problem). Show that you are serious and dedicated and you will be taken seriously. PIs want hard workers, so if you prove you are one, they will support your efforts to become slave-labor...er...a physician-scientist!

Taxi

Thank you very much for your response. This is the impression that I had before talking with the neurosurgeon. Honestly I am having a tough time deciding between doing a combined MD/PhD or just and MD primarily because I really do not know the difference in which each practices medicine on a daily basis. I know that it is likely an MD/PhD seeks an academic neurosurgery position; however, I am not really sure what that means in terms of hours (how much control over hours), the percentage of time spent doing surgery versus research, salary differences (although I think academics make less but still do very well), and overall lifestyle and goals via each route.

Personally I really like basic sciences and did 3 years of research in undergrad with a first author pub. My goal is to spend most of my time doing surgery working 60-70 hrs per week post-residency. I would like to continue research for about 20% of my time while 80% doing surgery. My guess is that I would be best suited with an MD since my goal is to focus more on surgery than research. I think I am going to start asking these questions and see if I can work with an academic neurosurgeon after the first half of medical school so that I can see based on my other experience which route best fits me.

Again thank you for your response as it makes great sense. All the best!
Falco2525

 

[naegleria brain]

Taxi

Thank you very much for your response. This is the impression that I had before talking with the neurosurgeon. Honestly I am having a tough time deciding between doing a combined MD/PhD or just and MD primarily because I really do not know the difference in which each practices medicine on a daily basis. I know that it is likely an MD/PhD seeks an academic neurosurgery position; however, I am not really sure what that means in terms of hours (how much control over hours), the percentage of time spent doing surgery versus research, salary differences (although I think academics make less but still do very well), and overall lifestyle and goals via each route.

Personally I really like basic sciences and did 3 years of research in undergrad with a first author pub. My goal is to spend most of my time doing surgery working 60-70 hrs per week post-residency. I would like to continue research for about 20% of my time while 80% doing surgery. My guess is that I would be best suited with an MD since my goal is to focus more on surgery than research. I think I am going to start asking these questions and see if I can work with an academic neurosurgeon after the first half of medical school so that I can see based on my other experience which route best fits me.

Again thank you for your response as it makes great sense. All the best!
Falco2525

you both seem a bit naive. i highly suggest you research more about the field and talk to more neurosurgeons. check out nsmatch.com as well, you'll learn a lot. beware, some people post incorrect information, but in general itll give you an idea of how things work

a phd will not cut short your training. residency is residency and they wont shave off your research years just because you have a phd. research is a way an institution becomes famous/gets funding/prestige, etc. theyre not going to let you get away with that

there are many discussions on the new nsmatch about physician scientists and i feel i should make you guys aware of a few things. first, i'd say the majority of academic neurosurgeons are just MD, NOT Md/phd. if you want to do research, get a phd and join a department and research then.

its nearly impossible to become both a researcher and a neurosurgeon. realize that each patient you operate on is a four to five hour commitment, these are not two hour orthopedic patients. second, your patients are very very sick. this requires weeks of followup. and this is JUST 1 PATIENT. for you to be useful to a university, you need to operate on more than 1 patient a week; no idiot goes through 7 years of residency hell to do that.

now with all this time operating, this leaves very little time to do phd research work. there are only a handful (ie possibly can be counted on one hand) who even do that. the general mindset of those in residency is that theyre there to operate, they love the OR. second, you need to think of the ethical implications of saying no to a patient so you can go inject rats and run gels, etc. not to minimize research, but actually faced with the situation, its hard to turn away a patient.

as far as limiting your hours, you really need to realize that most neurosurgeons do not limit their hours. the few that do aren't just an exception but a rare one. most residencies in neurosurgery are not RRC compliant, and few are rumored to work you over 120 hrs or 3am prerounding as a common basis (UCSF, cleaveland clinic, etc.) after 7 years of this hell, you probably will be used to the hard work and will continue to do so.

now, you have to decide if you want cool cases or your normal spine ACDFs, which, let me tell you, get boring, even for a med student. for this reason, despite the HUGE GAP in salary between private practice and academics, i believe the majority still choose academics. if not - its 50/50.

however, i do believe a md/phd is useful in that it makes you more desirable to programs. it increases your chances of matching, i think. and that makes sense too, for a number of reasons.

in summation:
1. in neurosurgery, do not expect to be both. MD neurosurgeons operate...a lot. their research is minimal and generally clinical in nature, which isnt at all what your extensive phd science is like. if you want to research, get your phd and do neuroscience research. unfortunately there isnt enough time to do both well.

2. md/phd makes you more desirable in the match

3. neurosurgeons work a lot. expect a hellish residency, and dont count on limiting your hours. the rumored 85% divorce rate is for a reason. however, IMO, you'll be used to the long hours, and you'll love doing it in the end.

4. please talk to neurosurgeons and check out nsmatch.com and the new uncleharvey as it'll make you more aware of how things work in the field. if you have further questions, take it to your neurosurgical mentor/guide and ask them. they should give you straight advice and clear any and all misconceptions.

best of luck to you both!

 

[taXi]

you need to think of the ethical implications of saying no to a patient so you can go inject rats and run gels, etc. not to minimize research, but actually faced with the situation, its hard to turn away a patient.

nb makes many valid points that should be considered extensively. With that said, the above statement is not at all credible. Even those PIs with just a PhD do not run gels, or inject rats--the students, post-docs and techs do the benchwork. Additionally, many very succesful PhDs spend a majority of their time away from their lab. This is all quite elementary to anyone who has done lab work.

I second the suggestion to check out uncleharvey.com. Regarding this topic, you will find that their are many opinions ranging a full spectrum. (Note that those areas of the site requiring registration are void of enthusiastic criticism of the MD/PhD to neurosurgery path).

Though there are innumerable reasons that coupling a basic science career with neurosurgery will be nearly impossible to achieve, the time constraints proposed above are so far off the radar that they should not be considered. Of course a career in neurosurgery is sought because of a profound desire to utilize every ounce of one's physical and mental assets to improve the lives of patients. I hope to operate a lot. I am 100% certain that no situation on the research side of my career will ever require my attention with such urgency that I would even have to consider neglecting a patient--such a thought is immeasurably inconceivable. At the same time, it is beneficial to scientific progress for those who are on the front lines of patient care (and so committed to patient care that they devote 120 hrs/wk to it), to contribute to basic science efforts.

If anyone desires to discuss the value of physician-scientists in the field of neurosurgey, or how to be a successful physician-scientist neurosurgeon via avenues such as competent lab staff, colaborators, and a willingness to be a co-PI, I propose the start of a new thread.

 

[naegleria brain]

i dont visit this thread enough to start a whole new discussion; i guess it'll be fine here for now

yes, you are correct that as a md/phd you can certainly run your own labs, but the actual legwork will be completely dependent on finding students such as us to actually do the physical work. your "labwork" will be composed largely of you thinking up the idea, getting someone else to write the grant, you review it and submit it. if the grant's approved, now you get others to actually do the work.

this sort of thing doesn't require a phd. there are several md neurosurgeons who do exactly just that, and the implication that a phd is required for that isn't exactly correct. then again, having a phd would make you proficient at it. nevertheless, remember that two years of residency are set aside for such research. most people who come out of that at the end of residency are thus proficient in carrying such desires out, making a phd unnecessary. it is for this reason, imo, that much of the labwork at many instititutions can be found being done by phd's and md's lacking phd's alike.

as far as time constraints limiting research time; yes they are very real, but again, this involves how involved you want to be with your own projects. if you don't mind delegating to others, then sure its doable, though few do it. if you want to be actively involved with both, again, i'm sorry, but that is nearly impossible in a field like this.

however, that doesn't mean we dont contribute to the advaning frontiers of neurosurgery. almost all md's do publish CLINICAL research articles, which are a source of more immediate value to a practicing neurosurgeon, although its less likely to push groundbreaking frontiers from this front. then again, much of yasargil's techniques was through clinical research, and the importance of his work cannot be forgotten; but that's an entirely different discussion.

i maintain that if you want to be actively involved with both, time constraints are a huge issue. directing your labwork is doable, but also extremely difficult. i work closely with two neurosurgery departments, and only one MD directs grad and med students in his lab work; he himself spends no time there given his extremely busy vascular service. as far as actually constructing and performing labwork, that's left to the dept-hired phd's.

remember, phd neuroscience and neurosurgery are BOTH fulltime jobs, but neurosurgery in itself is like two jobs in one. a normal job is 40hrs a week, whereas neurosurgeons routinely put in way over 80hrs a week. trying to do both fully is like taking on three jobs at once, which, i'm sure you agree, is nearly impossible.

so it depends on how active you want to be with your basic science research. however, the level of activity that is most commonly undertaken can also be done by an md neurosurgeon without a phd given his science years in residency training, as most, if not all, are perfectly capable. this isn't to belittle having a phd, as being md/phd during the application confers in itself an excellent advantage in the match.

for these reasons, i'd say that if one truly loves research, go ahead for the phd. but if one is getting the phd just for future science work as a practicing neurosurgeon, i think he/she should be a little wary of what lies ahead.

 

[taXi]

so it depends on how active you want to be with your basic science research. however, the level of activity that is most commonly undertaken can also be done by an md neurosurgeon without a phd given his science years in residency training, as most, if not all, are perfectly capable. this isn't to belittle having a phd, as being md/phd during the application confers in itself an excellent advantage in the match.

I agree with what nb has said, and encourage anyone considering the MD/PhD path (especially with a desire to do surgery) to consider the points made very carefully. I especially agree with what is quoted here. Of course one trained as a neurosurgeon with the experience provided during the research years of residency will be fully capable of making meaningful contributions to the kind of interdisciplinary collaborative efforts I am clearly a proponent of. The PhD is not "necessary."

I do personally feel that I will be better suited to contribute to basic science efforts as a fulltime surgeon because of my PhD training. And that really is what it boils down to: a personal decision. There are many who would not find PhD training a fruitful experience--and these same individuals may very well go on to be the most skilled surgeons, educators and researchers. The variety of skillsets and talents that this field draws will always be a benefit to progressive patient care. As nb notes, a PhD can be a great advantage in the match. This is not without reason--mudphuds make an excellent addition to a team.

Best of luck to you as well, naegleria! Perhaps as a resident you will have the chance to dissect my goals and motivations during the interview process. Until then, I look forward to learning more through your willingness to share perspective.

Cheers.

 

[MDPhoDollas]

Dude, a brain surgeon told you it would save you time to get a phd??? can you let us all know where this guy practices so i don't go getting the worst headache of my life in his town?

and personalities like naegleria's are exactly why i wont be wasting time with residency. typical insecure med student trying to "generously enlighten" someone twice the doctor he'll be....yeah, like this guy's all of a sudden going to choose another field because he never realized the implications of coupling basic sci with neurosurgery. (he gets paid to do what you pay over 100k to do, obviously his ug cv trumps your current cv. check yourself, Dr. One-degree). sorry my man, you'll have to try tactics other than scaring off the competition if you think you're going to survive in any ego-driven environment.

 

[Falco2525]

Dude, a brain surgeon told you it would save you time to get a phd??? can you let us all know where this guy practices so i don't go getting the worst headache of my life in his town?

and personalities like naegleria's are exactly why i wont be wasting time with residency. typical insecure med student trying to "generously enlighten" someone twice the doctor he'll be....yeah, like this guy's all of a sudden going to choose another field because he never realized the implications of coupling basic sci with neurosurgery. (he gets paid to do what you pay over 100k to do, obviously his ug cv trumps your current cv. check yourself, Dr. One-degree). sorry my man, you'll have to try tactics other than scaring off the competition if you think you're going to survive in any ego-driven environment.

He is actually one of the top neurosurgeons in the nation. People fly from all over to see him. Note he is in private practice which is why I was not sure if he was correct in his suggestion. The reason he suggested it was because he was able to finish his residency in 5 years (including internship year) because he had a masters in science degree. Also he did his residency at the University of Toronto.

 

[MDPhoDollas]

He is actually one of the top neurosurgeons in the nation. People fly from all over to see him. Note he is in private practice which is why I was not sure if he was correct in his suggestion. The reason he suggested it was because he was able to finish his residency in 5 years (including internship year) because he had a masters in science degree. Also he did his residency at the University of Toronto.

all in good fun...way to get your boy's back though

 

[Falco2525]

all in good fun...way to get your boy's back though

yeah my bad i did come across really defensive...oh well...I think for me I am going to focus on one degree because it fits what I want to do better

 

[naegleria brain]

Dude, a brain surgeon told you it would save you time to get a phd??? can you let us all know where this guy practices so i don't go getting the worst headache of my life in his town?

and personalities like naegleria's are exactly why i wont be wasting time with residency. typical insecure med student trying to "generously enlighten" someone twice the doctor he'll be....yeah, like this guy's all of a sudden going to choose another field because he never realized the implications of coupling basic sci with neurosurgery. (he gets paid to do what you pay over 100k to do, obviously his ug cv trumps your current cv. check yourself, Dr. One-degree). sorry my man, you'll have to try tactics other than scaring off the competition if you think you're going to survive in any ego-driven environment.

im not trying to scare them away; and besides, i'm a few years ahead of both of them. i'm trying to shed light on the basic science aspect of nsurg because its unique

wasting time with residency - good luck operating on brains with that phd of yours. there's a reason why stand-alone phd's are scorned by md's and you perpetuate it. sad

i pay over 200k, thank you very much. oh woe is me that i'll be a doctor rummaging through the dumpsters for scraps to eat; if only i listened to that guy on the forums and got a phd.

ego-driven environment...with a bad cv? you can use your phd mind to figure that one out. benjamin carson, spetzler, yasargil. alas those one-degree bastards can never amount to anything...oh, wait. not even an honorary phd. hmm, i'll hedge my bets on something else

please, stop wasting your time on these forums. you have no interest in residency because your attitude will never cut it here. go analyze more of your own semen samples, and when you discover that your un-flagellated sperm are actually eggs, get that sex change and be content with your self-authored case report in NEJM.

good day.

to the previous guy, excellent summary, it really does come down to personal preference. if you truly love research, but want to operate on human brains, getting a phd certainly is a great option. i also want to throw out there that some residents are able to attain a phd within their two years of residency-research, so that's an option too in case you aren't sure just yet.

 

[MDPhoDollas]

im not trying to scare them away; and besides, i'm a few years ahead of both of them. i'm trying to shed light on the basic science aspect of nsurg because its unique

wasting time with residency - good luck operating on brains with that phd of yours. there's a reason why stand-alone phd's are scorned by md's and you perpetuate it. sad

i pay over 200k, thank you very much. oh woe is me that i'll be a doctor rummaging through the dumpsters for scraps to eat; if only i listened to that guy on the forums and got a phd.

ego-driven environment...with a bad cv? you can use your phd mind to figure that one out. benjamin carson, spetzler, yasargil. alas those one-degree bastards can never amount to anything...oh, wait. not even an honorary phd. hmm, i'll hedge my bets on something else

please, stop wasting your time on these forums. you have no interest in residency because your attitude will never cut it here. go analyze more of your own semen samples, and when you discover that your un-flagellated sperm are actually eggs, get that sex change and be content with your self-authored case report in NEJM.

good day.

how are you a "few" years ahead of a 4th year MD/PhD student?
i don't plan to operate on anything; blue collar work just isn't for me.
stand alone phd? yeah, my phd stands alone right next to my md.
bad cv? you are misquoting now. not bad, just very likely less impressive than taxis. you think he's not thinking what i'm saying? naive??? the guy has you outclassed not only by having an additional degree, but a higher degree. your md is a professional degree, like an RN. kudos to him for being so spineless...er...polite.
who is the guy on the forums telling you to get a phd? i'll let him know to stop bothering you cause you couldn't hack it.
wouldn't cut it in residency? please, the spots you would get on your knees for would be thrown at me.
You kiss your mother with that mouth? highly unlikely any dignified human beings will be respecting you in your lifetime.

go ahead and aspire to be carson, spetzler and yarsagil all rolled into one glorified grease monkey "technician." you'll still be half the doctor i am.

 

[naegleria brain]

well a pissing contest ensues...
1) i said a few years ahead of the previous guys, not you. at any rate, how many more years till you get your MD? in terms of professional achievement, i made no claim of being ahead of you or them, just in terms of medical school.

2) yes, cutting open brains is blue collar work. my aspiration is to join the blue collar comedy tour.

3) again, never called you a standalone phd. however the arrogance and spitting between the two fields exists because of your attitude
i'm willing to be a sizable amount of money that the past four years of your work has lead to fewer accomplishments of my last four years. in general i'd probably agree with you in terms of cv comparison, but you're facing an "ego-driven" individual who has no esteem and compensates by neurotically achieving to fill his cv.

4) phd is higher than md? there is only one way to measure this. can any md attain a phd? i'd say the vast majority, yes. can any phd attain an MD. not nearly as many as the reverse. as a matter of fact, many phd's will attest to once wanting to be doctors, but took up research instead. having attained a masters and BS in 3 years and being offered a phd track at my alma mater, i know how easy it is, compared to getting an MD
at any rate, congrats youre getting both

5) i couldnt hack it? it was the dean, thank you. but a life of teaching and research wasnt for me, i'd be much happier with "blue collar work"

6) get a spot first buddy, then talk; talk is cheap. oh wait, residency's not for you, how convenient.

7) ah i get tons of respect. but idiot-savantes like yourself clearly aren't deserving of any, and thus receive such commentary, as i'm sure you're quite used to. so now i arch my stream of urine by saying that YOU my friend will never be respected given that attitude

8) i have no response for calling carson, spetzler, and yasargil a glorified grease monkey technician. that's just plain slanderous and may i dare you to post such filth on uncleharvey and see if your peanut-sized ego could handle a "virtual" beating. your strength of character is null and void on an internet forum because something is lacking in life as well. go see a psychiatrist. wait, no, they did residency. maybe a psychoanalyst with your phd; and when they realize you need buspirone, venlafaxine, duloxamine, and clozapine, let him forward you to an MD residency trained doctor.

and that brings me to your last point. being a doctor means treating patients, which you can't do without residency training. so doctor your rats all day long and pretend its the same thing.

pity, an MD/PhD is such a terrible thing to waste, but your delusions make both of no use to anyone. no residency, a crappy attitude, desires to "doctor" with no will. may you breathe in some radioactive dye that allows you to see the world for what it is, not what you wish it to be

lastly, look up the advances all three individuals you so insolently dismissed have given to medicine and science. they may not have phds but have produced work far beyond the caliber of many phd's in neuroscience. so that brings me to the common sense conclusion:

what matters most in life is not the initials after your name, but the use you put it to. before you declare yourself world's MVP because of the phd following your name, you can look back on your life and realize, youve given the world nothing, and have left it useless, forgotten, and unworthy of the titles you "worked" to attain

 

[MDPhoDollas]

well a pissing contest ensues...

The pissing contest began when you called a curious newbie and a 4th mudphud "naive" thus revealing your insecurities.

-I'm not a 4th year student. the guy you insulted is. Read slowly and carefully, it's not brain surgery.

-the past four years of my work have yielded a phd...yours?

-yes, a phd is an academic degree, an md is a professional degree. did you think i made that up? again, try reading some...this is a simple issue of definitions, not opinions.

-yes, "couldn't hack it." your single degree brands you such for the rest of your life.

-get a spot first? with top research universities throwing professorships at physician-scientists (i.e. penn, ucsf, etc. etc. etc.), you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone that any mdphd would fail to match in any specialty.

-again, reading comp, boy. the amount of respect you receive was not questioned. the fact that no dignified human being will respect you is what was pointed out. by definition, someone who respects a foul-mouthed, verbally violent individual is not a dignified human being. do you have anything objective to add to this conversation?

-when you start out by saying "i have no response" and then proceed to type a paragraph...well, i'll let your md mind figure that one out
.....and yet another opportunity to point out your inability to comprehend the english language: no one put down carson, spetzler nor yarsagil. what was said is that you can aspire to be the three of them rolled into one glorified grease monkey technician. do you always make your arguments against points you fabricate in your own mind?

-literally, being a doctor means being a teacher. do you not even know the history of this title you are working for?


Why do you come here for pissing contests? why not put it away, try really hard to have a rational thought, and then type something that actually makes sense? Every word you have typed has been systematically disassembled, and rather than address the disassembly of previous points made you simply proceed to make yourself look foolish again. It is this attitude, boy, coupled with your lack of respect for those more educated than you, that will shine through your whole life. don't stress too much though, family practice docs have great lifestyles!

keep typing pinocchio, i love pulling your strings.

 

[greymew]

You are both acting ridiculous. You're only discrediting yourselves by not respecting each others' opinions. Will you please start emailing or PMing your insults instead?

For students looking for actual advice, feel free to email or PM me.

-Jason
[email protected]

Mr Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

 

[naegleria brain]

sorry greymew, these forum banters are great fun and enjoyable to read. but i do apologize, if you have an actual question, feel free to ask any of us; while i'm not an expert, i'll be glad to share what i've learned

as for mdphd$, i think we're two very similar people (look at our back and forth) with two very different outlooks and opinions.

i would love to keep this going but don't have daily internet access. i'll be sure to return and we can keep this going. till then, c'est la vie!

 

[M3goingon4]

Don't bother, i'll finish him off now.

for starters, I'm an MD/PhD as well, and my MD rightly comes before my PhD for many reasons. I'm a professional doctor first, a researcher second.

an MD I concur is far more valuable than a PhD, not only because it's tougher to come by, but tougher truly to continue to completion, ie residency. Whereas a PhD is roughly a 2-3 year commitment, an MD is four full years with four years of residency afterwards to be a true doctor, an 8 year marathon that many PhD's are incapable of.

As for getting a spot, mudphud is going to soon realize that MD/PhD's are a dime a dozen in the professional world. There is no shortage of gifted researchers and surgeons alike, and if he thinks he can get a spot at UCSF, he should set a stopwatch to see how quickly Berger laughs in his face (the MD sans PhD who will refuse to hire this poor little fellow and pay his salary; so much for superiority).

Also, his limited contact with other applicants is gleaming. While an MD/PhD won't go unmatched in FP, IM, I personally know several, and by several I mean well into the twenties that didnt match into dermatology, ophtho, neurosurgery, ortho, and ENT as well as rad onc. As far as specific programs, I can't tell you how many times I've heard interviewers (also many MD's sans PhD) throw out MD/PhD applicants in favor of other MD applicants. While MD/PhD is a clear benefit, part of the reason I'm in one, it is BY NO MEANS A GUARANTEE to any field, much less, any position you want especially given the multitude of gifted MD researchers sans PhD (only a time till they get honorary PhD's, which IMO is a disgrace to true PhD's everywhere), PhD, and MD/PhD.

Moreover, I would like to add here that I have personally witnessed PhD-solo get positions over MD/PhD for purely research/teaching positions.

This is something everyone who believes this should learn now before being turned down by UPenn/UCSF, both whom are international powerhouses who regularly turn down applications left and right (I know because I worked there).

His observation of all the physician scientists working there is akin to noting that all scientists wear glasses. Just because he wears glasses, he'll get a spot without the program. The proposition is as idiotic as when applied to simply having two degrees and getting a spot.

being a doctor today means treating patients, not teaching. we cannot work off history; our history is blemished with blatant mistreatment of Jews in Nazi Germany with medical experiments, Tuskeegee, and classifying homosexuality as pathology. It's best to get with the times.

I have one explanation for his behavior. He states he's not "wasting time" with residency because he doesn't want to deal with people like naegleria, which I find comical because he's exactly like naegleria. I wouldnt be surprised if he's actually the same guy with split-personality disorder.

But the root of his problem is that he's not doing residency because he truly "can't hack it", what with the 120hr workweeks, the megalomaniacal personalities and giant egos that, despite lacking PhD's, would trash him constantly. But even above that, most MD/PhD's actually DO complete residency. So, in his world, MD/PhD ranks highest, then pseudo-MD/PhD without residency, then MD. Because he's behind every MD/PhD out there, he needs to make himself feel better by trashing on the single-degree MD's. In fact, one may argue that his MD isn't even a true MD without the training implied therein, making him actually just a PhD. Perhaps his struggle is convincing himself and others that a PhD is better than an MD. Lets see how true that assertion is when getting a position at either Penn or UCSF's neurosurgical department against five other MD surgeons. Chances are, he'll be told to re-apply to their biology dept where he can grade your children's biology exams in his spare time.

So, we can all expect a bitingly sarcastic remark with lots of stupid little smiley faces to convince everyone and himself that he's not bothered by this fact and probably a few more jabs at naegleria and then myself followed by he's actually the best and his lack of neurosurgical residency training will actually make him the best neurosurgeon of all. Then, naegleria will follow with one against everyone as soon as he gets to a computer.

When this undoubtedly happens, I suggest we simply realize his reasons for his actions and insecurities, and leave it at that.

 

[MDPhoDollas]

Wow, i must have grown extra hands. It is a grand feeling being such a masterful puppeteer.

nb hit the nail on the head stating that we are similar people...as well as eluding to the fact that once a conversation degenerates to the level it did it is purely for entertainment purposes.

come on? you think i go around putting down md's, the very people that have given me my position in life? get real m3on4. writing a well thought out novel in response to a bunch of smack talking is just dumb, especially since what you're saying has zero to do with the op's question which was already answered.

i would read your pulitzer worthy post, but knowing from the get-go that you're too chromosomally abnormal to realize how worthless and stupid your participation in this discussion is, your work is exposed as creditless. skimming it did reveal some hilarious pearls though...

you have a phd and have it in your head that a phd is a 2-3 year committment? that's called a masters, homeboy. do you really expect anyone to believe you have a phd? the average time to complete a phd is 5 years. objective fact. the attrition rate for phd students far exceeds that of med students. objective fact. (the frickin grad rate for incoming m1s is over 99%...ooh, that's scary odds!). and residency???? okay, einstein. an md can bang out 4 years of school, 3 years of residency, hang his shingle and be pushin pills in a total of 7 years. meanwhile, a phd will likely do 5 years grad school (sometimes 6, 7....rarely 4) and then post-doctoral training, often at mutiple institutes for another 4-5 years. not to mention a monkey can get an md: memorize text, regurgitate it, kiss butt for two years, done. getting a phd is obviously a lot more involved...many people spend years at it, and never manage to complete it--this NEVER happens to an md student, ever. objective fact.

finally, you have without a doubt proven to be the least intelligent person to ever post on this site. another objective fact. seriously, there is nothing you could ever do in your life to change this. nothing. your poor mother will be so bent out of shape...shame on you. Go beat up some more imaginary friends. remember, there's a 99% chance i'm neither an md, phd nor 4-finger-ring-wearin gangsta. try the real world for some serious talk...start with someone that can prescribe you some paxil. try to become a better liar...maybe you'll grow up to be able to coax someone as gullable as yourself into penning a novela in response to "banter," just as has happened to you.

again, i said it to ya before you even joined the conversation. keep typing pinocchio...dance a lil for me while you're at it.

if you are a scientist, base your assumptions on data. all you know about me is that i have access to the internet

 

[Falco2525]

yeah this thread took kind of a different turn than i expected

 

[MDPhoDollas]

yeah this thread took kind of a different turn than i expected

lol, at least you got your answer first. some people are just UNbelievable

 

[iwantneurosurg]

Wow, i must have grown extra hands. It is a grand feeling being such a masterful puppeteer.

nb hit the nail on the head stating that we are similar people...as well as eluding to the fact that once a conversation degenerates to the level it did it is purely for entertainment purposes.

come on? you think i go around putting down md's, the very people that have given me my position in life? get real m3on4. writing a well thought out novel in response to a bunch of smack talking is just dumb, especially since what you're saying has zero to do with the op's question which was already answered.

i would read your pulitzer worthy post, but knowing from the get-go that you're too chromosomally abnormal to realize how worthless and stupid your participation in this discussion is, your work is exposed as creditless. skimming it did reveal some hilarious pearls though...

you have a phd and have it in your head that a phd is a 2-3 year committment? that's called a masters, homeboy. do you really expect anyone to believe you have a phd? the average time to complete a phd is 5 years. objective fact. the attrition rate for phd students far exceeds that of med students. objective fact. (the frickin grad rate for incoming m1s is over 99%...ooh, that's scary odds!). and residency???? okay, einstein. an md can bang out 4 years of school, 3 years of residency, hang his shingle and be pushin pills in a total of 7 years. meanwhile, a phd will likely do 5 years grad school (sometimes 6, 7....rarely 4) and then post-doctoral training, often at mutiple institutes for another 4-5 years. not to mention a monkey can get an md: memorize text, regurgitate it, kiss butt for two years, done. getting a phd is obviously a lot more involved...many people spend years at it, and never manage to complete it--this NEVER happens to an md student, ever. objective fact.

finally, you have without a doubt proven to be the least intelligent person to ever post on this site. another objective fact. seriously, there is nothing you could ever do in your life to change this. nothing. your poor mother will be so bent out of shape...shame on you. Go beat up some more imaginary friends. remember, there's a 99% chance i'm neither an md, phd nor 4-finger-ring-wearin gangsta. try the real world for some serious talk...start with someone that can prescribe you some paxil. try to become a better liar...maybe you'll grow up to be able to coax someone as gullable as yourself into penning a novela in response to "banter," just as has happened to you.

again, i said it to ya before you even joined the conversation. keep typing pinocchio...dance a lil for me while you're at it.

if you are a scientist, base your assumptions on data. all you know about me is that i have access to the internet

i find it funny you call yourself a puppetmaster when m3 pretty much pushed you into responding, then called you out on it, before you even did it!



priceless

 

[iwantneurosurg]

masters is 1 year. i know of a few who needed 2, but most were 1.

phd: the only guys who i knew who got their phds in 3 years were neurosurgeons in residency. can normal people do it that fast too? if so, how? care to elaborate m3?

also, just wanna throw out there, >1/2 phd's who teach first year of med school readily admit that they coulda never made it through med school. i think the attrition rate is because getting a phd position is really easy (heck i had two offers, one from an ivy), but doing it is really tough, and not everyone can cut it
however, getting a med student position is really tough, and most who get it can cut it

 

[M3goingon4]

iwantneurosurg: unfortunately phd's tend to get lazy and take things at their own pace, so much so that institutions are starting to "pressure" their students to get it done within 5 years. If you keep on top of your work daily and making sure there are no gaps, one can easily get it done in three years. two years is pushing it, but i too have seen neurosurgical residents do it, as well as others, but they had plentiful med students at their disposal to run gels, irradiate mice, etc.
this can get difficult with the classes you teach and "office hours" and whatnot, but if you keep a diligent medical student work-ethic in your lab as well, it's very possible, and anything over 6 years means that your experiment is detailed and youre waiting for your turtles to die from natural causes, or youre not efficient.

also, while most masters programs are more than 1 year, a very good many are only a year, and are successfully completed in that time. however, to say that most are only 1 is inaccurate. some take 3 or more, which incidentally, can get just as long as a phd.
edit: let me put out there that i am awaiting mudphud$ to post a sarcastically biting remark to my above statement to feed his tiny ego and insecurities yet again exactly as i called out earlier. i know this edit means i'm violating my rule of ignoring such little sh*ts but i have this compulsive need to point out the obvious. anyway, make your mother proud and continue to act like my good little b*tch, and do what i tell you.

 

[MDPhoDollas]

i am awaiting mudphud$ to post a sarcastically biting remark

nah...you've all made fools of yourselves enough--much appreciated....

 

[taXi]

edit: let me put out there that i am awaiting mudphud$ to post a sarcastically biting remark to my above statement to feed his tiny ego and insecurities yet again exactly as i called out earlier. i know this edit means i'm violating my rule of ignoring such little sh*ts but i have this compulsive need to point out the obvious. anyway, make your mother proud and continue to act like my good little b*tch, and do what i tell you.

How truly unbecoming, especially for a future physician.
At least naegleria brain and mdph$ were coming at each other with whit and wisecracks--I thought the fun would never stop. They were responding to each of each other's points, with jocular exaggerations--and honestly, there was value hidden in what each had to say.

And then along came the spoilers...The guy is going into finance (MDPho$); he is obviously in a surgery forum only to get a rise out of people and to catalyze perpetuation of surgical stereotypes. naegleria played along, which provided good entertainment. Of course, that's not what this site is for, but the thread was already a success because the OP's question was answered--there was no disruption of the flow of knowledge.

Suprisingly, two newcomers saw a bear trap already sprung, reset it, simply to allow themselves to be caught by the trap. Had this provided for more entertainment, I would at least see some point to what has been written. But the comments made are neither jocular nor make any sense whatsoever.

Zzz, indeed.

 

[M3goingon4]

nah...you've all made fools of yourselves enough--much appreciated....

the little doggy has been chased with his tail between his legs. every statement, destroyed, every affirmation collapsed, with nothing left but unfounded interjections and subjective spittings remaining.

yes, when you come back with residency-training and finish your PhD you can rejoin the big boys; till then, you'll be nothing more than the awkward teen in the kiddy pool

hope those swimming lessons go well for you!

PS - you'll do yourself a favor by never coming back with that name i pulverized; perhaps MDPhoResearch would be a better title; maybe then more people would actually take you seriously.
now retreat to your cave, my little bitch!

as to taxi, MDPho$ didn't even answer the OP's question, he just made a crack at the first person he saw. i enjoy destroying people like him, which was easy in this case because im in the process of doing everything of what he is (MD/PhD) faster, and more completely (residency). it was just too easy

 

[taXi]

as to taxi, MDPho$ didn't even answer the OP's question, he just made a crack at the first person he saw. i enjoy destroying people like him, which was easy in this case because im in the process of doing everything of what he is (MD/PhD) faster, and more completely (residency). it was just too easy

Again, all I can personally say about you is that your behavior is extremely unbecoming. You have made not a single valid point and provided zero entertainment for readers of the thread.
Making a comment like, "it was just too easy" after not making a single valid point, and having all of your statements systematically exposed as ridiculous, just makes you look foolish. The fun was over long ago...why don't you just go back to putting down gays in the urology forum? Real classy.

 

[M3goingon4]

Again, all I can personally say about you is that your behavior is extremely unbecoming. You have made not a single valid point and provided zero entertainment for readers of the thread.
Making a comment like, "it was just too easy" after not making a single valid point, and having all of your statements systematically exposed as ridiculous, just makes you look foolish. The fun was over long ago...why don't you just go back to putting down gays in the urology forum? Real classy.

your inability to comprehend is frightening. i highly suggest you reread the above comments i made because theyll do you well in life, most importantly being, having an md/phd guarantees you nothing. if you, like mdphd$, believe this, you'll be in for a grave disappointment in the near future. especially if you think you can waltz straight into ucsf or penn's neurosurgical department since "a bunch of their guys are md/phd". there's no shortage of us, and spending a few years to get that phd isnt your ticket to columbia/penn, etc. plus, youll be competing with equally talented MD students, so dont be surprised if they choose an md over you, it happens much more often than either of you seem to think.

its not that you have the phd, its what you did with it that theyre most interested in.

and the urology topic is completely off topic for this forum, but i will say that my argument is that given the very few numbers of gays in this field, and given the few numbers of urologist, it'll be extremely rare, hell there's a strong chance may not even exist, a gay urologist. i in no way put them down although people seem to think so just because i say that there may not be any out there.

happy?

 

[MDPhoDollas]

your inability to comprehend is frightening. i highly suggest you reread the above comments i made because theyll do you well in life, most importantly being, having an md/phd guarantees you nothing. if you, like mdphd$, believe this, you'll be in for a grave disappointment in the near future. especially if you think you can waltz straight into ucsf or penn's neurosurgical department since "a bunch of their guys are md/phd". there's no shortage of us, and spending a few years to get that phd isnt your ticket to columbia/penn, etc. plus, youll be competing with equally talented MD students, so dont be surprised if they choose an md over you, it happens much more often than either of you seem to think.

its not that you have the phd, its what you did with it that theyre most interested in.

and the urology topic is completely off topic for this forum, but i will say that my argument is that given the very few numbers of gays in this field, and given the few numbers of urologist, it'll be extremely rare, hell there's a strong chance may not even exist, a gay urologist. i in no way put them down although people seem to think so just because i say that there may not be any out there.

happy?

Dear Pinocchio,

What is your training level again, 3rd going on 4th grade? It's a good thing you love being schooled so much, considering how much you have left.
notice how nb's comments incited responses, because what he said had substance, yet no one will even credit what you say? Dance, boy! Dance!

Bravo, taxi. nice KO. i was way too bored with this kid to waste my time.

 

[M3goingon4]

Dear Pinocchio,

What is your training level again, 3rd going on 4th grade? It's a good thing you love being schooled so much, considering how much you have left.
notice how nb's comments incited responses, because what he said had substance, yet no one will even credit what you say? Dance, boy! Dance!

Bravo, taxi. nice KO. i was way too bored with this kid to waste my time.

that's right my little bitch. you can't leave me even if you tried. it kills you not to have the last word and i know it. i own your soul.

good luck in the real world kiddo, where your boss always gets the last word and you bust your ass to make me proud!

ps - my proof is that your last three posts said absolutely nothing except idiotic smiley faces and null-statements. the greatest bit to totally eat your soul would be to post after every one of your comments on this forum, you'll go nuts trying to get the last word on each and every one. unfortunately, while youre sitting on your ass dragging your phd to a solid 7 years and posting on this forum, im actually working. kiss my feet for i control your sanity, my little bitch

 

[M3goingon4]

ouch!
but seriously, thanks for the feedback. i will take your advice and look into VC more closely.
i actually have no problem being a number cruncher for a while. all i do now is excel sheets and powerpoints--for 19 a year.

Your response is appreciated...sorry if i came off defensive. it's basically just my attitude towards medicine showing through. again, no offense intended. your question makes perfect sense as the whole mdphd thing should mean that I am super geek, right? it's not that i'm not. i do actually love science and the notion of using it to improve lives. maybe i am just bitter now and want to make some dough. oh well, better to change course now than later.

i'm so sorry, i didn't realize your situation, an older person unhappy with his life thus far. i sincerely hope your future works out better for you. youre right, better to change now than later, and i hope that when you do get on wall street, you are able to live the life you always wanted

no sarcasm intended. i rip on little ****s on this forum, but now knowing your history, i apologize for the derogatory things i've said. may wall street treat you better than i have.

 

[taXi]

M3goingon4,
MDPhoDollas did get the last word, you simply continue to speak to an audience who has discredited your words long ago. And yes, like you, I have fallen victim to the "puppeteer"--typing away in vain, only to point out what is painfully obvious to those that simply read your words and move on to worthwhile sections of this forum. But I cannot help but point out the picture you have painted of yourself which objectively quantifies your character. You did make terrible remarks about homosexuals in the urology forum. In fact, you stated that the majority do not attain higher education. Additionally, you have repeatedly used vulgarity which is offensive not only to readers of this forum, but all females who have ever been called the b-word. In all seriousness, it is these facts that force one to quantify the worth of your words--all of them--as zero.
The original discourse that followed sucessful answering of the OP's question was, as confirmed by both posters involved, "banter" of sorts. It deteriorated only to the level of urine-talk, but was hardly offensive. By comparison, even after those two chuckled it off, you continued a line of extremely offensive prose using language that should never be used by any professional individual. I sincerely hope the safeguards against licensing unsatisfactory physicians successfully prevent you from practicing. It is unfair for patients who will automatically respect you because of your white coat, not to know that you are completely comfortable using vulgar language and publishing such words in public arena. I have no problem telling you that I think it is shameful behavior.

To MDPhoDollas: best of luck piecing the next step together--I have a feeling it will all fall into place. I certainly relate with your love of NY, and understand the allure you see. It is good to see that you do appear quite happy with your life and that you have the foresite to keep it that way. My plea to you is that you let this die. As I said, the intelligent consensus is that you did get the last word regarding the above mentioned poster--every word of his having been dissolved by the biting H+ content of his vulgarity. PM me for mature discourse. Let his foul language continue to paint the very accurate picture it does...I bet we are in store for yet another shockingly unbecoming response to this. I can't wait to be so terribly "defeated" by his last word! (At least he follows his orders to dance!). Cheers.

 

[M3goingon4]

ah, a response from the beloved taxi!

first off, you need to learn a few things; some of your logic is flawed.

because someone uses profanity and harsh defamations of character does not mean all his other words are thereby null. you won't learn anything from residency, especially a neurosurgical one, with that attitude. perhaps you should go spend more time with them on call and see what i'm talking about.

second, this is language between professionals. if you really think doctors dont talk like this to each other, again, you've a lot to learn.

third, its a sin to keep a qualified individual from practicing. some of the brain surgeons i know are the biggest toolish dinguses ever, but by your standards, they should be barred from getting a license; pity to all the poor patients that won't benefit from their expertise. your logic needs a lot of work.

fourth, you need to revisit that forum. i questioned whether homosexuals attain education beyond the bachelors level, and it'd be something to study. that is in no way offensive. i also cited the higher levels of STDs, including HIV in their population as a result of their actions. this is also fact, as you will soon learn, if not already, in your classes. because you may not like hearing these truths does not mean i'm spitting out harsh expletives at their population. just because you don't like it doesnt mean it ain't true.

fifth, vulgarity is part of the english language. people use it universally in all facets of medicine. get used to it, or youre going to be terribly upset by the "lack of decor" in hospitals. asking for more on a forum, now youre getting ridiculous

i'll illustrate an example:

IMPRISON ALL PEDOPHILES 1+1=2 ****IN PEDOPHILES DON'T DESERVE ****!

1+1=2 is a true statement that cannot be disregarded just because i said it in between two harsh statements. separate the two, and you will find truth in it. the statements about pedophiles you can argue all you want or evaluate on your own. hopefully this lesson will open your eyes to the real world.

as to giving mdphd the last word, its funny you feel the need to bring it up, it clearly shows you have a compulsion for it as well. its okay to have the compulsion, almost everyone does, some people are just better at controlling it. i don't understand why you feel the need to get the last dramatic statement out there. either way, make no mistake

this post states nothing dramatic and is not a last word. i give that award to you, but please do read the above. youre an idealistic guy in an unidealistic world, and neurosurgery is as unidealistic as it gets. if you can't take daily jokes about anal-rape without lube by your chiefs and attendings, well, i give you about one week into residency till you either blow up, shut up, change your views, or quit.

my statements on controlling the sanity of mdphd i hereby revoke. again, i didnt really know about his situation, and i feel awful for it. i'm not going to minimize his words by appeasing his statements, because many were not true, but i will stop antagonizing him. again, my apologies.

and taxi - i'm dead serious about this post. if you like to question any of it, feel free to PM me. other than that, i think that wraps up everything here. if not, feel free to post.

 

[MDPhoDollas]

Hypothesis conclusively proven. the results are reproducible. again, bravo taxi.

 

[soeagerun2or]

Hypothesis conclusively proven. the results are reproducible. again, bravo taxi.

Hypotheses are supported or refuted, not proven or disproven

 

[MDPhoDollas]

Hypotheses are supported or refuted, not proven or disproven

Oh my, how advanced of you! Somebody get this kid a cookie!!

 

[Myempire1]

bump... bump..



I found this thread entertaining and has decent Springer-potential. I could see it now: chairs knocked over, books flying, penetrating Otoscope injuries, and a county-hospital patient population audience.