What would a "medicare-for-all" system look like?

[VA Hopeful Dr]

How does it matter if English is my fourth or fifth language?

If your answer is NO, then please stop blaming the government and regulation for all the issues of the world.

No, because cost isn't the only thing that matters.

Mexico has much cheaper healthcare than we do, but I don't know many people clamoring to go there for treatment.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

How can you say the problem is that insurance companies are paying off people to enact legislation that helps them, NOT the consumer, and your solution is MORE government interference, like insurance companies won’t continue to pay people off?

 

[deleted480308]

I completely agree that the insurance model in general makes most sense for catastrophic needs.

However, voluntary health insurance is fiscally unsustainable because that would result in people buying it only when they need it.

If you drive a car, you are legally required to have insurance. Otherwise people would avoid paying for insurance until they got in an accident, then quickly buy a policy before they reported it. This would sink the insurance company pretty quickly.

Same deal applies to health insurance. If it isn't mandated, healthy people won't buy it, and then the numbers don't work.

You aren't required to have comprehensive auto insurance (the portion that fixes your car) only liability to cover others you harm. And that's good because if you can't afford to fix your damaged car....that's your problem

The same should exist with health care. Buy insurance or don't, your choice and your problem. And if you don't have the ability to pay for something you need later, your problem

 

[deleted927028]

Wonders of free market capitalism in medicine. I bet my life on it, this kind of naked atrocities will happen only in America, half the population will defend it saying it is government fault or capitalism and the politicians won’t do a thing to stop it. How stupid we people are.

The Price of Insulin Controls My Life. My State Lawmakers Don’t Care.

If you read the news, you know that insulin has become so expensive, Type 1 diabetics are dying.

www.huffpost.com

 

[deleted927028]

Wonders of free market capitalism in medicine. I bet my life on it, this kind of naked atrocities will happen only in America, half the population will defend it saying it is government fault or capitalism and the politicians won’t do a thing to stop it. How stupid we people are.

The Price of Insulin Controls My Life. My State Lawmakers Don’t Care.

If you read the news, you know that insulin has become so expensive, Type 1 diabetics are dying.

www.huffpost.com

Even once in blue moon if a politician like Bernie Sanders shows up and proposes to fix it, 80% of population will be terrified of him, calling him socialist that he is out to take their freedom away. What a world of paranoias we live in !!!

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Glucose can be managed for much cheaper. How much does a vial of 70/30 run these days?

You still didn’t answer my previous question.

 

[deleted480308]

Wonders of free market capitalism in medicine. I bet my life on it, this kind of naked atrocities will happen only in America, half the population will defend it saying it is government fault or capitalism and the politicians won’t do a thing to stop it. How stupid we people are.

The Price of Insulin Controls My Life. My State Lawmakers Don’t Care.

If you read the news, you know that insulin has become so expensive, Type 1 diabetics are dying.

www.huffpost.com

A type 1 diabetic can buy enough insulin to stay alive at walmart for less than my cell phone bill.

Generic insulin is not expensive

 

[deleted927028]

How can you say the problem is that insurance companies are paying off people to enact legislation that helps them, NOT the consumer, and your solution is MORE government interference, like insurance companies won’t continue to pay people off?

Government is our only hope. If you dream that one day the private insurance companies will become saints and begin to care about you and offer you the best care at minimum price, you are jus being naive and gullible. Every day people violate criminal laws and traffic rules, it doesn’t mean we have to revoke all the rules and laws. Instead you have find ways to enforce them vigorously. Similarly just because people could buy politicians and circumvent regulations, we should just give up and make it easier for them to exploit.

If there is a will there is a way. We all the people come together, stop treating our government as our enemy but force them to work for us. Take away all the legal bribes called lobbying, outlaw the politicians to go and work for corporations to collect their payback after doing them favors while in office. Demand the government to take over healthcare, banking, energy, education sectors just like ever other countries do. But if we continue to think that government is our enemy that is about take away the so called freedom, they rich and powerful will continue to exploit. I can go on and on.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Government is our only hope. If you dream that one day the private insurance companies will become saints and begin to care about you and offer you the best care at minimum price, you are jus being naive and gullible. Every day people violate criminal laws and traffic rules, it doesn’t mean we have to revoke all the rules and laws. Instead you have find ways to enforce them vigorously. Similarly just because people could buy politicians and circumvent regulations, we should just give up and make it easier for them to exploit.

If there is a will there is a way. We all the people come together, stop treating our government as our enemy but force them to work for us. Take away all the legal bribes called lobbying, outlaw the politicians to go and work for corporations to collect their payback after doing them favors while in office. Demand the government to take over healthcare, banking, energy, education sectors just like ever other countries do. But if we continue to think that government is our enemy that is about take away the so called freedom, they rich and powerful will continue to exploit. I can go on and on.

You’re missing the point, private companies don’t need to be altruistic. The free market encourages competition, and if they don’t provide a cheaper, better market solution, they will go out of business.

The only exception... is when they’re in bed with powerful people that can keep them afloat despite being corrupt. Aka corporate welfare aka crony capitalism.

I trust nature, math, and science over some system devised by imperfect human minds. Nature abhors a vacuum. Any void will be filled. It’s why the black market is a thing.

 

[deleted927028]

A type 1 diabetic can buy enough insulin to stay alive at walmart for less than my cell phone bill.

Generic insulin is not expensive

Don’t offer excuses. Why should anyone has to go to Walmart or settle for generic medicine after paying $25000 in premiums, deductibles and copays? Is it a gift for cash strapped poor insurance companies? As I told million times, look at what other countries do and learn from them.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Don’t offer excuses. Why should anyone has to go to Walmart or settle for generic medicine after paying $25000 in premiums, deductibles and copays? Is it a gift for cash strapped poor insurance companies? As I told million times, look at what other countries do and learn from them.

That’s the point. They shouldn’t go to Walmart after paying 25000 in premiums deductibles and copays. It should be instead of.

How much did college cost before it was government subsidized? Ever hear of older people talk about paying for college many years ago with a part time job? Not going to happen today. Why? Because when the government will pay whatever colleges will charge, colleges will charge more. If you’re not taking out loans, you’ll never afford it.

Medicine works like this.

 

[deleted927028]

You’re missing the point, private companies don’t need to be altruistic. The free market encourages competition, and if they don’t provide a cheaper, better market solution, they will go out of business.

The only exception... is when they’re in bed with powerful people that can keep them afloat despite being corrupt. Aka corporate welfare aka crony capitalism.

I trust nature, math, and science over some system devised by imperfect human minds. Nature abhors a vacuum. Any void will be filled. It’s why the black market is a thing.

I am missing the point? Lol. Yes, private companies need not be altruistic, that’s why it is foolish to defend them and worship them. But on the other hand, we have to force the government to offer us better alternatives like all other countries instead of feeling terrified of them.

Please don’t lecture me saying free market will encourage competition etc. if it is so, we won’t be paying three times more in premiums compared to all other countries in addition to copays and deductibles. Free market will encourage competition only for non essential goods and services. Talk to some good economist .

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

I don’t “worship them”. I like limiting their power by not giving them a big buddy (the government) that they can do backdoor deals with and therefore enslave us.

Lol “force the government”. That’s hilarious.

Also, it’s because America doesn’t have a free market. What part of that are you having trouble understanding? America is HEAVILY regulated. I take annual competency classes every year on such regulations.

Hell, kids get in trouble for having unlicensed lemonade stands. The regulations in America are ridiculous.

 

[deleted927028]

That’s the point. They shouldn’t go to Walmart after paying 25000 in premiums deductibles and copays. It should be instead of.

How much did college cost before it was government subsidized? Ever hear of older people talk about paying for college many years ago with a part time job? Not going to happen today. Why? Because when the government will pay whatever colleges will charge, colleges will charge more. If you’re not taking out loans, you’ll never afford it.

Medicine works like this.

For a change, I agree with you on college loan. We should not encourage too much of it. But don’t be blind and blame only the government. Private banks give out lot of loans too. Why are you not complaining about it?

 

[deleted927028]

I don’t “worship them”. I like limiting their power by not giving them a big buddy (the government) that they can do backdoor deals with and therefore enslave us.

Lol “force the government”. That’s hilarious.

Also, it’s because America doesn’t have a free market. What part of that are you having trouble understanding? America is HEAVILY regulated. I take annual competency classes every year on such regulations.

Hell, kids get in trouble for having unlicensed lemonade stands. The regulations in America are ridiculous.

Why forcing the government hilarious ? It is something we elect to work for us. Isn’t it? Do not blame the regulations. In other countries the governments handle the entire healthcare and they do a lot better than us. You have to open your eyes and heart and show some humility and learn from others

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Because that’s not the discussion were currently having. I believe in absolutely no collusion between the government and churches, banks, businesses etc.

This will never happen because humans are corrupt. So the second best thing is “instead of having a government so big and strong that it doesn’t matter who runs it, have a government so small and powerless that it doesn’t matter who runs it”

 

[deleted480308]

Don’t offer excuses. Why should anyone has to go to Walmart or settle for generic medicine after paying $25000 in premiums, deductibles and copays? Is it a gift for cash strapped poor insurance companies? As I told million times, look at what other countries do and learn from them.

The walmart insulin works just fine and no one who actually paid 25k in insurance premiums has trouble buying enough insulin to stay alive. That’s absurd

Why forcing the government hilarious ? It is something we elect to work for us. Isn’t it? Do not blame the regulations. In other countries the governments handle the entire healthcare and they do a lot better than us. You have to open your eyes and heart and show some humility and learn from others

no, no matter how many times you say it we aren’t actually doing much worse here

 

[Stagg737]

I can't believe I'm responding to this, guess I'm a bit of a masochist.

There is zero regulation in this country. If there is any regulation, it was written on behalf of the private insurance for their own benefit. One such stupid regulation is that Medicare cannot negotiate drug prices. Does this help increase the price or decrease? Another outrageous regulation is that we cannot import drugs. Why did they do this? For the benefit of drug companies or the public? Do not blame the government for everything. There is no government in this country that works for the people.

Yes, there is no regulation that was enacted FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE. Seriously, that’s all you had to say on my entire post? Seriously if you believe that the government works for the benefit of the people in this country and it restraints the rude behavior of the corporations, you are in denial.

So you berate the government and talk about how it is working for corporations and does nothing for the people, then go on to make a statement like this:

Government is our only hope.

Seriously, your arguments are so hypocritical and laughable that I can't understand how anyone can take you seriously...

Also as I mentioned so many times, regulations are not bad for the businesses or the economy as brainwashed by the mouthpieces of the corporations. If people complain about them, they are not doing honest business. How the world will be if there are no criminal or traffic laws. Do we complain about them? Then why are we obsessively against business regulations?

The fallacy in your arguments are astounding. Many traffic laws are unnecessary and in place to increase government funding and to ensure the most stupid of the population don't kill themselves and others (speeding comes to mind). Other traffic laws/regulations are more like guidelines to allow traffic to be more efficient (like red lights and stop signs).

As for criminal laws, they are much different than the business laws you're suggesting because criminal laws are generally agreed upon by society while there are massive differences in opinion as to what should be allowed in businesses. For example, most of society would agree that killing or raping someone are bad and should be punished. However, society has significantly differing opinions as to what businesses should and shouldn't be allowed to do which can be further complicated by different sectors/industries, business size, private vs. public, etc.

You're thinking in very black and white terms while simultaneously espousing ideas which are contradictory and using examples which are either poorly thought out or poorly expressed and then saying that people who disagree with you are brain-washed. It's bizarre and makes it difficult to take anything you say seriously.

Of all the libertarian arguments on healthcare, this has to be the most naïve and unfounded. I can appreciate well thought out libertarian logic but this is just silly.

I don't think it's silly or naive to think that if people did not have to give up large swaths of their income to the government or other agencies that they'd be more amenable to helping with causes they believe in or with aiding their own communities. I think the problem arises when you talk about the amount of aid that would be provided when compared to taxes. For example, the US federal government collected $3.33 Trillion in tax dollars in 2018 (and that's ONLY the fed gov), which comes out to about $9,500 per person. Since there's ~130mil working individuals in the US, that would average about $25,500 paid per working individual. Since the mean income in the US is around $58k, you'd be asking the average person to give up nearly half their salary to help others if we wanted to meet the current taxes collected by the US, which I don't think is realistic.

 

[Little Green Mensch]

People who doubt that regulatory capture helps fuel our rising healthcare costs should look at hospitals' intense opposition to reforming the certificate of public need (COPN) process.

Hospitals like having a local monopoly, and don't want to face competition from independent imaging and surgery centers. The millions of dollars required to get state approval (i.e. COPN) is a tremendous barrier to entry that helps keep prices high.

Obviously, duplicating infrastructure is expensive, and there is already a real access problem in rural areas. However, COPN doesn't really address either of those; in effect, it functions solely to protect hospitals from competition.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I am missing the point? Lol. Yes, private companies need not be altruistic, that’s why it is foolish to defend them and worship them. But on the other hand, we have to force the government to offer us better alternatives like all other countries instead of feeling terrified of them.

Please don’t lecture me saying free market will encourage competition etc. if it is so, we won’t be paying three times more in premiums compared to all other countries in addition to copays and deductibles. Free market will encourage competition only for non essential goods and services. Talk to some good economist .

Obviously true. Its why bread and milk are so expensive.

 

[tr]

I don't think it's silly or naive to think that if people did not have to give up large swaths of their income to the government or other agencies that they'd be more amenable to helping with causes they believe in or with aiding their own communities. I think the problem arises when you talk about the amount of aid that would be provided when compared to taxes. For example, the US federal government collected $3.33 Trillion in tax dollars in 2018 (and that's ONLY the fed gov), which comes out to about $9,500 per person. Since there's ~130mil working individuals in the US, that would average about $25,500 paid per working individual. Since the mean income in the US is around $58k, you'd be asking the average person to give up nearly half their salary to help others if we wanted to meet the current taxes collected by the US, which I don't think is realistic.

Huh? This totally ignores the extreme and rising income inequality in the U.S.

You don't have to tax people making $58K at 50% to generate 3 Tn. A 3 % tax on billionaires will generate 3 Tn in ten years.

Elizabeth Warren’s proposed tax on enormous fortunes, explained

A 2 percent levy on assets more than $50 million, and higher rates on billionaires.

www.vox.com

 

[Stagg737]

Huh? This totally ignores the extreme and rising income inequality in the U.S.

You don't have to tax people making $58K at 50% to generate 3 Tn. A 3 % tax on billionaires will generate 3 Tn in ten years.

Elizabeth Warren’s proposed tax on enormous fortunes, explained

A 2 percent levy on assets more than $50 million, and higher rates on billionaires.

www.vox.com

That's not the point I was making. Of course you don't have to tax those people at 50%, but for everyone taxed at a lower rate someone else would have to be taxed at a higher rate. This is basic logic.

To the 3.3 trillion figure. The us spends that domestically every year. Raising 3.3 trillion over the course of ten years does basically nothing on its own. I'm fine with a progressive tax to a certain extent, but I'm not a fan of the direction of certain political ideologies which seem to be getting more popular in recent years.

 

[deleted927028]

Obviously true. Its why bread and milk are so expensive.

Let me give one more try. Epipen is worth only a few dollars in other countries. But here in USA, it costs $600-$800, and some people pay that much not because they want or it is worth that much BUT THEY HAVE TO as there are no alternatives and THEIR LIFE IS IN DANGER. Now the milk producers and bakery owners would also love to charge $600-$800 for the bread and milk if they can get away with it. But the difference is that the consumer’s life is not dependent on buying the milk or bread, SO THEY CAN WALK AWAY if the price is not right. Also, the milk and bread makers are in a precarious position to lose everything if they price the items more aggressively because the shelf life of milk and bread is only a few days. So the price is low not because the producers are altruistic. This is why I repeatedly say that it is foolish to think that free market is the answer for every aspect.ALL OTHER COUNTRIES UNDERSTAND THIS AND THAT’S WHY THEY REGULATE DRUG PRICES.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

But America fails to do so, and the solution, is more government?

If there was a truly free market, epi pens wouldn’t cost 600 here. Know why? Because I personally would buy a boat, go buy loads of them for a few dollars, and sell them for a couple hundred here. That would save the people 400 bucks a pen.

Eventually, someone would come up with a cheaper way to move even more massive amounts of pens than I can, and they would undercut me, selling pens for as little as 50 a pen. This would keep going until it wasn’t feasible for someone to sell any cheaper.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Let me give one more try. Epipen is worth only a few dollars in other countries. But here in USA, it costs $600-$800, and some people pay that much not because they want or it is worth that much BUT THEY HAVE TO as there are no alternatives and THEIR LIFE IS IN DANGER. Now the milk producers and bakery owners would also love to charge $600-$800 for the bread and milk if they can get away with it. But the difference is that the consumer’s life is not dependent on buying the milk or bread, SO THEY CAN WALK AWAY if the price is not right. Also, the milk and bread makers are in a precarious position to lose everything if they price the items more aggressively because the shelf life of milk and bread is only a few days. So the price is low not because the producers are altruistic. This is why I repeatedly say that it is foolish to think that free market is the answer for every aspect.ALL OTHER COUNTRIES UNDERSTAND THIS AND THAT’S WHY THEY REGULATE DRUG PRICES.

You do know it's not the drug that drives up that cost right?

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Of course not. He thinks it’s greedy companies, and doesn’t understand basic economics.

 

[deleted927028]

But America fails to do so, and the solution, is more government?

If there was a truly free market, epi pens wouldn’t cost 600 here. Know why? Because I personally would buy a boat, go buy loads of them for a few dollars, and sell them for a couple hundred here. That would save the people 400 bucks a pen.

Eventually, someone would come up with a cheaper way to move even more massive amounts of pens than I can, and they would undercut me, selling pens for as little as 50 a pen. This would keep going until it wasn’t feasible for someone to sell any cheaper.

Please educate me, why more Government is a bad thing? What prevents you from saying that our government has to regulate the Epipen price just like the rest of the world? Why do we get paranoid about government involvement when the rest of the world don’t do so? There is no such thing as more government or less government. We need as much government as it takes to keep the order. It is not something we should be afraid of or resented.

The rest of your post is a wishful thinking. I wonder what would be your stand if you or your children need that Epipen.

I don’t know about all of you, but I feel ashamed of calling myself an American when we allow people to extort $600-$800 for something worth only a few dollars from vulnerable innocents in the name of stupid capitalism and defend the vultures. It is immoral and unethical.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Like someone mentioned earlier, you say the government is only helping corporations in one breath, and then say we need MORE government.

My point is, what prevents me from going on my own, buying up a bunch of few dollar epi pens and selling much less than 600$? That’s right. Government regulations.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Please educate me, why more Government is a bad thing? What prevents you from saying that our government has to regulate the Epipen price just like the rest of the world? Why do we get paranoid about government involvement when the rest of the world don’t do so? There is no such thing as more government or less government. We need as much government as it takes to keep the order. It is not something we should be afraid of or resented.

The rest of your post is a wishful thinking. I wonder what would be your stand if you or your children need that Epipen.

I don’t know about all of you, but I feel ashamed of calling myself an American when we allow people to extort $600-$800 for something worth only a few dollars from vulnerable innocents in the name of stupid capitalism and defend the vultures. It is immoral and unethical.

It's kind of amazing how much you go out of your way to ignore the truth..... government meddling is the reasons Epipen costs $800

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

I’m really starting to think this is just a troll.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Let me give one more try. Epipen is worth only a few dollars in other countries. But here in USA, it costs $600-$800, and some people pay that much not because they want or it is worth that much BUT THEY HAVE TO as there are no alternatives and THEIR LIFE IS IN DANGER. Now the milk producers and bakery owners would also love to charge $600-$800 for the bread and milk if they can get away with it. But the difference is that the consumer’s life is not dependent on buying the milk or bread, SO THEY CAN WALK AWAY if the price is not right. Also, the milk and bread makers are in a precarious position to lose everything if they price the items more aggressively because the shelf life of milk and bread is only a few days. So the price is low not because the producers are altruistic. This is why I repeatedly say that it is foolish to think that free market is the answer for every aspect.ALL OTHER COUNTRIES UNDERSTAND THIS AND THAT’S WHY THEY REGULATE DRUG PRICES.

Your ignorance of how America works is staggering.

Epipens were expensive because of the government. First, the mechanism in the Epi-Pen was patented meaning there could not be a generic until 2025 at the soonest. Second, 2 companies tried to come up with mechanisms that were different enough to avoid the patent but still work in a similar way. Neither made it past the FDA.

For years I've been writing my patients for vials of epinephrine (cost $10) and syringes (cost 50 cents). Both of those items have multiple manufacturers which is why they are so cheap. That's how the free market works, not a patent-protected anything.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

VA that is a good example of how regulations can negatively impact patient safety.

The patients would be much safer having a barely more expensive epi pens already adjusted to give the proper amount of insulin with no need to draw it up, just give when needed, but due to regulations this is not feasible so patients have to take what they can afford.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Please educate me, why more Government is a bad thing? What prevents you from saying that our government has to regulate the Epipen price just like the rest of the world? Why do we get paranoid about government involvement when the rest of the world don’t do so? There is no such thing as more government or less government. We need as much government as it takes to keep the order. It is not something we should be afraid of or resented.

The rest of your post is a wishful thinking. I wonder what would be your stand if you or your children need that Epipen.

I don’t know about all of you, but I feel ashamed of calling myself an American when we allow people to extort $600-$800 for something worth only a few dollars from vulnerable innocents in the name of stupid capitalism and defend the vultures. It is immoral and unethical.

Yes, clearly the government never does anything wrong.

Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Internment of Japanese Americans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

VA that is a good example of how regulations can negatively impact patient safety.

The patients would be much safer having a barely more expensive epi pens already adjusted to give the proper amount of insulin with no need to draw it up, just give when needed, but due to regulations this is not feasible so patients have to take what they can afford.

Nah. I'd fill the syringe to the proper dose for them, put on a sticker with an expiration date, and send them out. Safe as can be.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Nah. I'd fill the syringe to the proper dose for them, put on a sticker with an expiration date, and send them out. Safe as can be.

Ah okay. I thought you meant send em with a vial and the needles. Which im my opinion is safe enough, but people are stupid and still mess it up.

 

[deleted927028]

Your ignorance of how America works is staggering.

Epipens were expensive because of the government. First, the mechanism in the Epi-Pen was patented meaning there could not be a generic until 2025 at the soonest. Second, 2 companies tried to come up with mechanisms that were different enough to avoid the patent but still work in a similar way. Neither made it past the FDA.

For years I've been writing my patients for vials of epinephrine (cost $10) and syringes (cost 50 cents). Both of those items have multiple manufacturers which is why they are so cheap. That's how the free market works, not a patent-protected anything.

Let me be ignorant and you be the smart. Just answer me this, you are saying that the Epipen patent is expiring only in 2025, then how the hell it is getting sold for only a few dollars in all other countries? Why are you against our government doing something similar to our own people? Is America on a different planet?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

then how the hell it is getting sold for only a few dollars in all other countries?

Why are you against our government doing something similar to our own people?

It's like talking to a brick wall.

 

[deleted927028]

Yes, clearly the government never does anything wrong.

Kelo v. City of New London - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Internment of Japanese Americans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So, you mean to say that the private never do anything wrong?

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Definitely a troll. No one is that dense.

 

[deleted927028]

It's like talking to a brick wall.

Exactly. That’s how I feel

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Let me be ignorant and you be the smart. Just answer me this, you are saying that the Epipen patent is expiring only in 2025, then how the hell it is getting sold for only a few dollars in all other countries? Why are you against our government doing something similar to our own people? Is America on a different planet?

Several reasons. First and most important, other countries set a price on what they will pay for a medication. The company can either charge that much or lose the whole market. Second, our patent laws don't apply outside out country (that's how laws work).

I have no objection to the former point happening in America.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

If you ever get a tumor, don’t remove it. Just let it get stronger so it can actually help. That’s the problem with tumors. They’re not strong enough to help you yet.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So, you mean to say that the private never do anything wrong?

Are you ****ing daft?

There is no company in existence that can remove me from my house by force when I've done nothing wrong. The same is not true of the government which is the point I was making. Of course private companies do bad things. But when they do and are caught, they can lose both business because of bad press and be punished for breaking the law.

The government is not subject to either of those problems. If I get mad at the government because the invoke eminent domain and kick me out of my house, I can't just stop using the government nor is there a higher power that can punish the government.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

The government IS a corporation. The most powerful one in America.

Do you really think we vote them in? No. Corporations have much more power to get people elected because of mass wealth. So the government has always, is, and always will be the strongest tool of corporations.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This is from the last page, but still seems relevant

Those people are bloat. They are being paid to do something that provides no benefit to anyone other than the bottom line of the insurance company. They should be retrained to do something useful. The Jayapal bill (HB1382) includes provisions for this retraining.

This is easy to say, until you're the one being retrained. Not everyone wants to be retrained, and not everyone can be retrained. And, if we retrain everyone and they still make the same salary, then we haven't saved any money. (If they are doing "new things" that are "better" then perhaps we get more value, but I have trouble seeing how that would work for insurance workers).

To be clear: I agree with you. I see much of the money spent on insurance admin as waste, and would like to see it cut. But it's important to be able to see the situation from everyone's viewpoint, and there are lots of people who would be hurt by this decision.

If the hospitals cannot function on the mandated rates, the government will be forced to increase the rates or see no service available. Medicare rates are not set in stone. They are able to be low now because the hospitals make it up by gouging the private insurance companies. If everyone had the same coverage that would no longer be an option.

If Medicare raises rates, then there isn't any savings any more. And if there is only one payor, it's also very likely that they will just tell hospitals to "deal with the current payment levels". In fact, that's exactly the argument you're making about the drug companies now -- that those that have a corner on the market can set the price anywhere they want. The same would be true for Medicare. Who decides how much a primary care office visit is paid, or a brain tumor removal?

---

There's only one thing that everyone agrees upon: The current system is broken. Most people would agree that many drugs and treatments are too expensive. But how to fix that is complicated -- if you think you have a simple solution, you're wrong.

There's the group that thinks that more gov't involvement in healthcare is the right answer. The gov't should own all of healthcare, paid by taxes. It should be a service delivered to all citizens at taxpayer expense. The gov't should set prices, and determine what is covered and what is not covered. This would fix the uninsured (mostly), and presumably drug and device prices would drop by government fiat. Paying for it almost certainly requires a more progressive tax structure which some will find objectionable. Physician salaries will probably drop. The VA has been mentioned as an example of this type of system, and although in my experience in VA's I have loved taking care of vets, it's not a system I would want to work in or receive care in -- it's underfunded, support staff are often less than optimal, and the bureaucracy is a nightmare. Depending on how healthcare workers are paid, you might get a "race to the bottom" -- people trying to work as little as possible to get their paycheck. Innovation would likely be stifled, since the govenrment would tell you what you could and couldn't do.

Then, there's the group that thinks that less gov't involvement is the right answer. The gov't creating all sorts of requirements -- EMTALA, how wide hallways need to be, EMR meaningful use, Certificates of Need, pre-existing disease coverage, etc -- is what's driving up the cost of insurance and prices. There is certainly some truth to this -- prices are set ridic high so we can then give insurers a "discount" and get a reasonable price, but those without insurance are left paying the full price. And since lots of people don't pay anything for their healthcare, we have to overcharge those that do to pay for it. The argument on this side is that if gov't got out of the way, the market would fix things. Insulin is too expensive? Get rid of the crazy laws protecting patents and allowing drug companies to make a small tweak to their drug/delivery, then remove the old one from the market before generics (hence preventing generics). Etc. Supporters of this idea would point out that good primary care can probably cost similar to a monthly cell phone bill, and should be affordable to all. But, this solution is fraught with problems also -- people make bad choices, and it's quite likely that many will not have insurance and get ill, and a system that depends upon charity for a large swath of the populace is a poor choice. And removing regulations does lead to corporate malfeasance by some trying to make a profit.

IMHO, the most important part of this discussion is to see the viewpoint of the people on the side you disagree with. There are negative unintended consequences for both choices. Which one is "better" depends upon how you weight the problem you think needs to be fixed vs the downstream new problems your solution will create. That way, at least we can have an honest discussion of how we might proceed. Unfortunately, in our increasingly polarized society, good open debate of controversies gets overwhelmed in gotcha soundbites and media outlets / information sources that are one sided and simplistic.

 

[Gyuji]

Well, saw a short interview of Bernie Sanders from the the Young Turks network and the interviewer(Cenk) asked him a question of how he's going to pass the Medicare-4-Care bill whence he's President when there's opposition from the corporate Democratic Senators like Joe Manchin.

Sanders pretty much gave a solid answer. He said he's going to whoever's state and rally up people and relentlessly campaign for the bill during the primary and general election.

Yeah, that pretty much say that Bernie Sanders gets it. He's going to do the same thing that FDR and LBJ did of cracking skulls and twisting arms with other politicians to get things done by using the popularity of a policy as leverage. Basically, playing politics, the Machiavellian way.

The only thing standing in the way of Sanders is winning the nomination which is the hard part. Though I never thought Joe Biden was the favorite as mainstream media propelled it to be, Biden's polling numbers has been dropping as his past, voting record, gaffes and "creepiness" is surfacing. I believe corporate media(CNN and MSNBC) is going to propaganda for Kamala Harris as she's looks as their candidate by playing identity politics. But she's not getting much traction from the public.

Now, I saw two rallies of two Democratic candidates of John Inslee and John Hickenlooper whom both opposed M4A, and yeah they got booed out of the building. It shows you that the people are not taking crap anymore.

 

[deleted480308]

Well, saw a short interview of Bernie Sanders from the the Young Turks network and the interviewer(Cenk) asked him a question of how he's going to pass the Medicare-4-Care bill whence he's President when there's opposition from the corporate Democratic Senators like Joe Manchin.

Sanders pretty much gave a solid answer. He said he's going to whoever's state and rally up people and relentlessly campaign for the bill during the primary and general election.

Yeah, that pretty much say that Bernie Sanders gets it. He's going to do the same thing that FDR and LBJ did of cracking skulls and twisting arms with other politicians to get things done by using the popularity of a policy as leverage. Basically, playing politics, the Machiavellian way.

The only thing standing in the way of Sanders is winning the nomination which is the hard part. Though I never thought Joe Biden was the favorite as mainstream media propelled it to be, Biden's polling numbers has been dropping as his past, voting record, gaffes and "creepiness" is surfacing. I believe corporate media(CNN and MSNBC) is going to propaganda for Kamala Harris as she's looks as their candidate by playing identity politics. But she's not getting much traction from the public.

Now, I saw two rallies of two Democratic candidates of John Inslee and John Hickenlooper whom both opposed M4A, and yeah they got booed out of the building. It shows you that the people are not taking crap anymore.

It just shows that a lot socialist leaning democrats go to primary rallies in June

Bernie can’t beat trump in a general election, he’s too far off the rails

 

[Gyuji]

Trump is pretty much done in the Upper Midwest. Plus, you're underestimating his "socialist" platform and other policies that appeal to many people and even older people. We live in a different era of politics. More and more people are getting their news from the Internet than cable television.

What does Trump have to counter Bernie's policies? Vuvuzuela? Crazy Bernie? When Bernie is talking about facts, numbers and policies. Trump is already doing the GOP agenda of cutting Social Security and Medicare.

Plus an economic crash is coming. You think Trump and Republicans are going to survive the 2020 election when the economy crashes? I already said there's going to be a Republican bloodbath in 2020. And even more in 2022 when Republicans in blue and swing states like Marco Rubio are up for re-election when M4A becomes a reality.

 

[deleted480308]

Trump is pretty much done in the Upper Midwest. Plus, you're underestimating his "socialist" platform and other policies that appeal to many people and even older people. We live in a different era of politics. More and more people are getting their news from the Internet than cable television.

What does Trump have to counter Bernie's policies? Vuvuzuela? Crazy Bernie? When Bernie is talking about facts, numbers and policies. Trump is already doing the GOP agenda of cutting Social Security and Medicare.

Plus an economic crash is coming. You think Trump and Republicans are going to survive the 2020 election when the economy crashes? I already said there's going to be a Republican bloodbath in 2020. And even more in 2022 when Republicans in blue and swing states like Marco Rubio are up for re-election when M4A becomes a reality.

What crash is coming? Be specific on reasons and timing

 

[Gyuji]

The one like we had in 2008.

Remember Trump's tax-cut bill and deregulation? Yeah, same old right-wing economics(neoliberalism) and Trump put it to overdrive. Plus there's other factors: $1T of student loan debt, $1T of credit card debt, auto loans, housing reinflated, raising taxes on the working and middle-class, 50% of the population make $30, 000 or less and it goes on and on.

But usually happens when you cut taxes for corporations and uber-wealthy and deregulating banks.

Predicted to crash between August 2019 to August 2020. There's already signs of it.