What is your perception of the job market today and future?

[sozetone]

To the class of whatever you are planning:

Please tell me after researching a little, what is your perception of the job market today and for the future?

Do you feel you will have no problems finding a full time job and benefits upon graduation? if so, why?

What is your expected debt upon graduation?

How much annually do you expect to make upon graduation to pay back the loan/s ?

Just getting a feel for Pre-pharms insight into todays pharmacy job market. THANKS!

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[DagS132]

its good

 

[TerryTerry]

I am sure you`ve read many of recent posts here.

The kids are just happy to be in the school and make commitment.
For next 3 to 5 years, they can dream, tell their parents of the plan and stay busy. They don`t give a crap about consequences.

They are young. They have mindset of 'thing will eventually work out if I put enough effort to it'.
It won`t turn out that way for most of them at this point.

Kids still going to pharmacy school in year 2018 planning to graduate in year 2023. It`s unbelievable and scary.
90% of them will be signing $200000 slavery contract and say good bye to their dignity without even realizing.

 

[sozetone]

I am sure you`ve read many of recent posts here.

The kids are just happy to be in the school and make commitment.
For next 3 to 5 years, they can dream, tell their parents of the plan and stay busy. They don`t give a crap about consequences.

They are young. They have mindset of 'thing will eventually work out if I put enough effort to it'.
It won`t turn out that way for most of them at this point.

Kids still going to pharmacy school in year 2018 planning to graduate in year 2023. It`s unbelievable and scary.
90% of them will be signing $200000 slavery contract and say good bye to their dignity without even realizing.

I just want to see one of these pre pharms give me the actual data research on the field. I have tried before, but they never answer,

 

[DagS132]

I just want to see one of these pre pharms give me the actual data research on the field. I have tried before, but they never answer,

Are you trolling or are you oblivious as to why pre pharmers may not want to reply to you?

 

[Timbo]

Are you trolling or are you oblivious as to why pre pharmers may not want to reply to you?

I don't know about soze, but I'm genuinely interested in pre-pharms and current students perceptions too. Especially their salary expectations and what's the lowest they would be willing to work for, because ultimately that's going to determine all our salaries in the future. Of course we all know salaries are going down due to supply growing exceedingly faster than demand. Some areas have already decreased pay for new hires to under $50/hr. Some companies are already capping hours at 32/wk. As a current pharmacist, I would like to prepare for the future and if salaries end up dropping to under $80k a year it would probably be a good idea to jump ship to another career.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I'll preface this by saying I decided to not go to Pharmacy school after considering many healthcare options (Optometry, MD/DO, Podiatry, Dental), but Id like to play along. I think this is an excellent thought experiment, thank you for doing this for pre-pharms!

-Perception of the Job market is that it is saturated in big cities (500k+ people) and very hard to find a job full time in metropolitan areas. Areas in the south, midwest, and middle America have better prospects for full time work if you are willing to drive 20mins out from small cities, to the point where full time work with good pay isnt very hard to come by. There are actually places in America that need Pharmacists, but people dont want to live there. At the rate schools are turning out PharmDs, people better get used to small towns. There is more to the world than Socal, New York, and Chicago.

-From my research, I think I will have no problem finding full time work because I would go to places that need Pharmacists, like middle of nowhere Oklahoma or South Dakota. I like small areas with not a lot to do. Im talking about a town with 20K people in flyover country with a couple pharmacies sound perfect. Only thing I would miss is the beach.

-Expected debt depended on where I would have gotten into. The state school was a little bit less than 100K with intrest and price hikes included, but private options were in the 150-200K range. My cutoff for total debt would have been 150K+/-10K for living expenses/unforeseen expenses (car broke down, needed new tires, etc.).

-Based on the BSL.gov data from pharmacists in areas I wanted to practice in, I was looking at 110K-140K gross per year during the duration of my work career (So around 70-100K after taxes). I would have lived off of 30-40K/year and paid the reminder of my income (30-50K) to the student loans and been debt free in 3-5 years. I would have upped my living style to 60K/year and invested the remaining money (10-40K).

-Once debt free, I would look into options for a side hustle and ways to make money passively. Maybe write a book about how to get out of Pharmacy school debt lol.

Interested to see what you would respond with. Once again, I appreciate you giving your time to this forum and hopefully illustrating what exactly pharmacy entails to these pre-Pharms.

To the class of whatever you are planning:

Please tell me after researching a little, what is your perception of the job market today and for the future?

Do you feel you will have no problems finding a full time job and benefits upon graduation? if so, why?

What is your expected debt upon graduation?

How much annually do you expect to make upon graduation to pay back the loan/s ?

Just getting a feel for Pre-pharms insight into todays pharmacy job market. THANKS!

 

[GypsyHummus]

But what if you are a Bio grad with a 3.1 GPA from a no name school and find out that a bio degree is worthless? How else are you sopposed to impress people at family weddings that you really dont like?

For people who want to work in healthcare, options are limited for bio majors with 3.0-3.3 GPAs. MD is most likely out of the picture without a 3.6+ and 510+ MCAT, DO is on the table if you boss the MCAT, but that is unlikely. OD is possible with a strong OAT, but they are facing saturation problems too. Dentistry is out of the picture without a 3.6+ GPA. Podiatry is still an option if you dont completely fall asleep during the MCAT.

For out little 23 year old bio grad who had big plans on getting a post grad education and was shocked when he didnt get into MD school, Pharmacy sounds pretty swell. Some schools dont require a PCAT, school is only 4 year, our little bio grad doesnt know how much 150K non-dischargable student loans debt looks like (let alone the 50K they borrowed for undergrad), the BSL.gov says the average is 120K/year, and I get to be a "doctor"? Sign me up! Plus, dad and mom are threatening to cancel the credit card and stop paying for my stuff, oh no!

I am sure you`ve read many of recent posts here.

The kids are just happy to be in the school and make commitment.
For next 3 to 5 years, they can dream, tell their parents of the plan and stay busy. They don`t give a crap about consequences.

They are young. They have mindset of 'thing will eventually work out if I put enough effort to it'.
It won`t turn out that way for most of them at this point.

Kids still going to pharmacy school in year 2018 planning to graduate in year 2023. It`s unbelievable and scary.
90% of them will be signing $200000 slavery contract and say good bye to their dignity without even realizing.

 

[sozetone]

I'll preface this by saying I decided to not go to Pharmacy school after considering many healthcare options (Optometry, MD/DO, Podiatry, Dental), but Id like to play along. I think this is an excellent thought experiment, thank you for doing this for pre-pharms!

-Perception of the Job market is that it is saturated in big cities (500k+ people) and very hard to find a job full time in metropolitan areas. Areas in the south, midwest, and middle America have better prospects for full time work if you are willing to drive 20mins out from small cities, to the point where full time work with good pay isnt very hard to come by. There are actually places in America that need Pharmacists, but people dont want to live there. At the rate schools are turning out PharmDs, people better get used to small towns. There is more to the world than Socal, New York, and Chicago.

-From my research, I think I will have no problem finding full time work because I would go to places that need Pharmacists, like middle of nowhere Oklahoma or South Dakota. I like small areas with not a lot to do. Im talking about a town with 20K people in flyover country with a couple pharmacies sound perfect. Only thing I would miss is the beach.

-Expected debt depended on where I would have gotten into. The state school was a little bit less than 100K with intrest and price hikes included, but private options were in the 150-200K range. My cutoff for total debt would have been 150K+/-10K for living expenses/unforeseen expenses (car broke down, needed new tires, etc.).

-Based on the BSL.gov data from pharmacists in areas I wanted to practice in, I was looking at 110K-140K gross per year during the duration of my work career (So around 70-100K after taxes). I would have lived off of 30-40K/year and paid the reminder of my income (30-50K) to the student loans and been debt free in 3-5 years. I would have upped my living style to 60K/year and invested the remaining money (10-40K).

-Once debt free, I would look into options for a side hustle and ways to make money passively. Maybe write a book about how to get out of Pharmacy school debt lol.

Interested to see what you would respond with. Once again, I appreciate you giving your time to this forum and hopefully illustrating what exactly pharmacy entails to these pre-Pharms.

Not bad, good answer. What would i say? I dunno, Ive been practicing for many years now. You got it about right though. The book is a good idea. best of luck. At least you answered, very few pre pharms have any interest in researching their career choice is what i am really gathering.

 

[Hels2007]

I met a tech recently who just graduated with a biology degree. He is working at a neuroscience lab right now, and trying to figure out whether to go for grad school or professional school, and in which discipline. He is working a side job at Walgreens and he is now quite clear that pharmacy school is not an option he will pursue - because "every floater who comes in tells me not to go to pharmacy school". I suppose if more pre-pharms actually worked anywhere near a pharmacy, they would have a better handle on what to expect when/if they graduate.

 

[DagS132]

Sozetone, maybe you should ask why they are continuing down this path despite the bad news instead of asking them to tell you about the bad news. Its most likely they are aware of the situation but just don't want to talk about it the way you want to.
And also, it would be great to actually get several unemployed pharmacy graduates here to talk about the issue to really convince everyone.

 

[princeafrica]

I met a tech recently who just graduated with a biology degree. He is working at a neuroscience lab right now, and trying to figure out whether to go for grad school or professional school, and in which discipline. He is working a side job at Walgreens and he is now quite clear that pharmacy school is not an option he will pursue - because "every floater who comes in tells me not to go to pharmacy school". I suppose if more pre-pharms actually worked anywhere near a pharmacy, they would have a better handle on what to expect when/if they graduate.

Trueeeeeeeeee. Working as a technician at Walgreens convinced me to runaway. Turned out great because I ended up having 2 months last year contemplating what I wanted to do now and shadowed a lot of different types of healthcare providers and got hands on experience and found out that even if Pharmacy was not saturated, it was actually not even close to what I really wanted to do. I think I was originally pushed down the pharmacy path because I liked chemistry and it seemed like an easy healthcare job with no stress.

 

[BC_89]

Please tell me after researching a little, what is your perception of the job market today and for the future?

Supply supersedes demand with no factual "provider status" in place. Metropolitan America has and will reach a 200:1 applicant ratio in any big chain retail for cities with a population 500k+. Saturation will linger over the next 20-25 years, yet more jobs will increase with no benefits and per diem pay in said cities. Yakutat-no-where-ville will still remain open for those advocate outdoors folks who prefer boonies over neighbors within the confides of a 3 acre city lot. Those smaller regions will have benefits and higher pay that will reflect COL raises ever 3-5 years by 1.1-2.4%. For those who travel across state and network hard will find jobs and have security for 3-5 years before needing to move residence and/or state.

Do you feel you will have no problems finding a full time job and benefits upon graduation? if so, why?

I will have no problem. Have worked in multiple states / countries with experience in writing Standard Operational Procedures and budgets for medications on behalf of federal jobs (ie DOD and the VA clinics). Prior service military have top priority for those specified locations. As a contingency, IHS areas attract me due to locations away from most metro regions. Third contingency is no issue working part time with no debt over my eyes enjoying the autonomy of hobbies while still investing in outside income (real estate property) or simply enjoying hobbies of hunting and fishing.

What is your expected debt upon graduation?

With Tuition, Cost of Living, Health Insurance, Lab and Book fees, I'd say on average Im looking at $0.00 … Still will contribute to mutual fund investments while a full time student.

(Post 9/11 GI Bill, VA steady income relating to prior service time, with a working spouse whos a social worker).

How much annually do you expect to make upon graduation to pay back the loan/s ?

Doesn't matter. As long as I can max our Roth IRA, TSP-or-401k with the possibility of doing a backdoor ROTH should any extra income head my way. Although, I would like to visit the in-laws in the pacific who speak no English once in awhile....if not, my free time is dedicated to my fishing.

Just getting a feel for Pre-pharms insight into todays pharmacy job market. THANKS!

Ill admit, im an outlier and definitely not the norm. Will graduate in my early 30's but with growing stocks and steady stream of income while in school and paying no loans to anybody, its the autonomy of further investing in smaller country regions that will help me reach my goals.

 

[Timbo]

Yakutat-no-where-ville will still remain open for those advocate outdoors folks who prefer boonies over neighbors within the confides of a 3 acre city lot

I don't believe that will remain true for long. People aren't going to sit around jobless while interest builds up on their $200k debt. I predict it won't be long before every opening in small farm towns will get hundreds of applicants. When I graduated a few years ago, companies were offering $20k bonuses and +$60/hr wages (which is high considering the low COL) for hard to hire areas. Is that even still happening anymore?

Surprised there's still no reponses from actual pre-pharms other than BC who's in a unique situation where his tuition will be fully paid for and he will most likely end up in a secure government job. Meanwhile school application/interview threads are still blowing up on here.

 

[BC_89]

I don't believe that will remain true for long. People aren't going to sit around jobless while interest builds up on their $200k debt. I predict it won't be long before every opening in small farm towns will get hundreds of applicants. When I graduated a few years ago, companies were offering $20k bonuses and +$60/hr wages (which is high considering the low COL) for hard to hire areas. Is that even still happening anymore?

Only a handful I’ve seen with signing bonuses. These days only the Indian Health System reservations offer 20K bonus toward loans for every year working. Of course, as expected the earning salary potential is low.

Yes, within the decade (and sooner) many rural farm town regions will be absorbed with high quantity (not quality) of applicants. Of course, I bet many won’t stay once they heavily hit their loans. Then again, many don’t wanna hit their loans quickly...Hope they love fishing during a midwestern cold-front with two truck stop restaurants across from their job placement.

As a side-note for other pre-pharms. If I wasn’t in a good position with no debt (actually....just no debt), I absolutely wouldn’t consider pharmacy. Really consider your contingencies a decade after graduation.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

To the class of whatever you are planning:

Please tell me after researching a little, what is your perception of the job market today and for the future?

Do you feel you will have no problems finding a full time job and benefits upon graduation? if so, why?

What is your expected debt upon graduation?

How much annually do you expect to make upon graduation to pay back the loan/s ?

Just getting a feel for Pre-pharms insight into todays pharmacy job market. THANKS!

I feel that the job market is saturated and that eventually market forces will force some schools to close because salaries in the field will be so depressed that no one will attend their programs. It's probably going to get worse for at least the next 10-15 years before you see some market parity in the field again. Some states and areas have niche areas where it might be possible to start an independent pharmacy and service a specific set of the population. I'm thinking Dodge City or Liberal, KS where a cash business would be feasible and you could compete in the Hispanic community.

I am currently on active duty and will be doing a release from the RA to go into the IRR and upon graduation I will go back to active duty, do a residency and get student loan repayment. Unless, my packet falls apart due to some random reason this is a given. I'm already in the system.

I will probably have around $120K in student debt. I expect to make 65K per year for the first three years after graduation (not including loan repayment) with AMEDD bonus pay thereafter.

Knowing that the profession is unstable and that I will need to do something to make myself marketable after the Army I will probably immediately go the route of getting more education as soon as possible. I know that my 3.35 GPA isn't competitive for a lot of fields and I am using PharmD basically like a post-bacc program. I will actively cultivate relationships with my professors so that when I do apply to a PhD program in medicinal chemistry, etc. that I have glowing letters of reference and a drastically improved GPA so that I can get into my first choice of program.

Worst case scenario I end up working for the VA or as a DoD civilian at an overseas clinic. This is my insight into todays pharmacy job market: I don't need to makes lots of money. What I need to do is get to 20 years of service so that I can elect to give my pension to my son with Downs Syndrome so I don't have to worry about him eating out of dumpster or living in a cardboard box when I am gone.

Pharmacy will get me there and I can get into a program with the GPA and LORs I have today. It's a better option than getting out of the Army with a criminal justice degree, doing an MBA, and thinking that I am going to find a great job just because I was an Army officer and went on a couple of deployments. That's what all my peers are doing and trust me the job market is saturated with post-military officers.

 

[Timbo]

I feel that the job market is saturated and that eventually market forces will force some schools to close because salaries in the field will be so depressed that no one will attend their programs. It's probably going to get worse for at least the next 10-15 years before you see some market parity in the field again. Some states and areas have niche areas where it might be possible to start an independent pharmacy and service a specific set of the population. I'm thinking Dodge City or Liberal, KS where a cash business would be feasible and you could compete in the Hispanic community.

I am currently on active duty and will be doing a release from the RA to go into the IRR and upon graduation I will go back to active duty, do a residency and get student loan repayment. Unless, my packet falls apart due to some random reason this is a given. I'm already in the system.

I will probably have around $120K in student debt. I expect to make 65K per year for the first three years after graduation (not including loan repayment) with AMEDD bonus pay thereafter.

Knowing that the profession is unstable and that I will need to do something to make myself marketable after the Army I will probably immediately go the route of getting more education as soon as possible. I know that my 3.35 GPA isn't competitive for a lot of fields and I am using PharmD basically like a post-bacc program. I will actively cultivate relationships with my professors so that when I do apply to a PhD program in medicinal chemistry, etc. that I have glowing letters of reference and a drastically improved GPA so that I can get into my first choice of program.

Worst case scenario I end up working for the VA or as a DoD civilian at an overseas clinic. This is my insight into todays pharmacy job market: I don't need to makes lots of money. What I need to do is get to 20 years of service so that I can elect to give my pension to my son with Downs Syndrome so I don't have to worry about him eating out of dumpster or living in a cardboard box when I am gone.

Pharmacy will get me there and I can get into a program with the GPA and LORs I have today. It's a better option than getting out of the Army with a criminal justice degree, doing an MBA, and thinking that I am going to find a great job just because I was an Army officer and went on a couple of deployments. That's what all my peers are doing and trust me the job market is saturated with post-military officers.

Seems like you have pretty good head on your shoulders. Like BC, looks like your military background may put you at an advantage over all the other traditional pharmacy students. But you make it sound like you only have 3 career paths to choose from. I mean there has got to be more than MBA, criminal justice, and pharmacy right???

 

[sozetone]

Guys, I have bad news for you. I left South Florida for BFE colorado. A place where nobody wants to live or work. And guess what? i'm getting an influx of underpaid new graduates. Tons of them. I may have a staff position for you though 45 hours/2 weeks , i dont know about benefits though. its set to open in about a week or so. Nobody knows this , i had to let go my staff pharmacist because she was a useless pile of cow manure. Took me 9 months or more to do it...I just hope you dont mind traveling on nasty mountain roads in heavy snow

I feel that the job market is saturated and that eventually market forces will force some schools to close because salaries in the field will be so depressed that no one will attend their programs. It's probably going to get worse for at least the next 10-15 years before you see some market parity in the field again. Some states and areas have niche areas where it might be possible to start an independent pharmacy and service a specific set of the population. I'm thinking Dodge City or Liberal, KS where a cash business would be feasible and you could compete in the Hispanic community.

I am currently on active duty and will be doing a release from the RA to go into the IRR and upon graduation I will go back to active duty, do a residency and get student loan repayment. Unless, my packet falls apart due to some random reason this is a given. I'm already in the system.

I will probably have around $120K in student debt. I expect to make 65K per year for the first three years after graduation (not including loan repayment) with AMEDD bonus pay thereafter.

Knowing that the profession is unstable and that I will need to do something to make myself marketable after the Army I will probably immediately go the route of getting more education as soon as possible. I know that my 3.35 GPA isn't competitive for a lot of fields and I am using PharmD basically like a post-bacc program. I will actively cultivate relationships with my professors so that when I do apply to a PhD program in medicinal chemistry, etc. that I have glowing letters of reference and a drastically improved GPA so that I can get into my first choice of program.

Worst case scenario I end up working for the VA or as a DoD civilian at an overseas clinic. This is my insight into todays pharmacy job market: I don't need to makes lots of money. What I need to do is get to 20 years of service so that I can elect to give my pension to my son with Downs Syndrome so I don't have to worry about him eating out of dumpster or living in a cardboard box when I am gone.

Pharmacy will get me there and I can get into a program with the GPA and LORs I have today. It's a better option than getting out of the Army with a criminal justice degree, doing an MBA, and thinking that I am going to find a great job just because I was an Army officer and went on a couple of deployments. That's what all my peers are doing and trust me the job market is saturated with post-military officers.

Yeah I think you have a solid plan, glad to hear it. Sorry about your son, but im glad to see he has good support for his future. best of luck to you!

 

[sozetone]

Are you trolling or are you oblivious as to why pre pharmers may not want to reply to you?

Nah not even sure what "trolling means"lol. I guess i understand why they are so quiet. It's a hard pill to swallow so early in the game.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

Nah not even sure what "trolling means"lol. I guess i understand why they are so quiet. It's a hard pill to swallow so early in the game.

Sooo... one thing I have noticed is that pharmacists as a community don't seem to be as well organized as other professions. If I can be honest you should be directing all this disgruntlement towards politicians.

Right now there are states that are allowing medicinal cannabis dispensaries to open that are not legally mandated to have a staff pharmacist on duty to sell the product. Pharmacists should be raising holy hell in Illinois and threatening to flip entire districts over this outrage. And I am dead serious about outrage.. There is a plethora of research that well documents the cognitive impact of regular cannabis use in addition to its immunosuppressive qualities. There is a very real need to have pharmacists on staff that can explain that THC and medicinal marijuana is not a silver bullet to be used broadly for every single issue and the potential risks.

You are in Colorado - literally the tip of the spear for legislations in other states. States have a long track record of more or less copying and pasting laws from early adopting states for almost everything. You should be writing articles about pharmacy issues involving cannabis and submitting them to papers in states considering legalization.

This is where you should be directing this energy not SDN.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

Seems like you have pretty good head on your shoulders. Like BC, looks like your military background may put you at an advantage over all the other traditional pharmacy students. But you make it sound like you only have 3 career paths to choose from. I mean there has got to be more than MBA, criminal justice, and pharmacy right???

I have a degree in international agriculture and speak fluent Farsi. My job experience outside of the military is as an aid worker in developing countries before joining. USAID was just gutted. I was actually doing my masters distance at Texas A&M in crop breeding and plant genetics because I planned to apply to the state department's ARS and transition to the reserves. Any job that I could get with my background would probably be a contractors position back in Afghanistan that would pay well but not have any benefits that I can give to my son. I found a position as an interpreter in Bahrain two years ago that I could have gotten with the Navy. 72 hours on 24 off rotations. Paid 70K per year.

Yes, I have options outside the military but they are not conducive to raising a special needs son

 

[DOOM N GLOOM]

Sooo... one thing I have noticed is that pharmacists as a community don't seem to be as well organized as other professions. If I can be honest you should be directing all this disgruntlement towards politicians.

Right now there are states that are allowing medicinal cannabis dispensaries to open that are not legally mandated to have a staff pharmacist on duty to sell the product. Pharmacists should be raising holy hell in Illinois and threatening to flip entire districts over this outrage. And I am dead serious about outrage.. There is a plethora of research that well documents the cognitive impact of regular cannabis use in addition to its immunosuppressive qualities. There is a very real need to have pharmacists on staff that can explain that THC and medicinal marijuana is not a silver bullet to be used broadly for every single issue and the potential risks.

You are in Colorado - literally the tip of the spear for legislations in other states. States have a long track record of more or less copying and pasting laws from early adopting states for almost everything. You should be writing articles about pharmacy issues involving cannabis and submitting them to papers in states considering legalization.

This is where you should be directing this energy not SDN.

You don’t learn about cannabis in pharmacy school, just like you don’t learn about specialty drugs in school, so what makes you think any new grad off the street would qualify for a role like that? An analogy is that you may get some exposure to specialty drugs during your therapeutics class but that hardly makes you an expert— hence you need a PGY-2 in said specialty area of interest before being able to practice (i.e. oncology).

I disagree that you need pharmacists working in medical cannabis dispensaries. You’re either saying that 1) There is a business need for dispensaries to hire someone at $120k to “counsel” on one drug, or 2) if medical marijuana is really a niche area, you’d need a PGY-2 in Medical Cannabis before practicing. Neither of those business models make sense. If anything, I’d rather pay $120k to a PA specializing in medical marijuana who can assess whether someone really needs it or not and preccribe it on the spot.

 

[DagS132]

lol, imagine a pharmacist counseling someone on how to smoke marijuana.
Also, I thought marijuana was a class 1 drug. Putting heavy restriction on research. I would assume there are not many studies on this out there.

 

[Timbo]

Sooo... one thing I have noticed is that pharmacists as a community don't seem to be as well organized as other professions. If I can be honest you should be directing all this disgruntlement towards politicians.

Right now there are states that are allowing medicinal cannabis dispensaries to open that are not legally mandated to have a staff pharmacist on duty to sell the product. Pharmacists should be raising holy hell in Illinois and threatening to flip entire districts over this outrage. And I am dead serious about outrage.. There is a plethora of research that well documents the cognitive impact of regular cannabis use in addition to its immunosuppressive qualities. There is a very real need to have pharmacists on staff that can explain that THC and medicinal marijuana is not a silver bullet to be used broadly for every single issue and the potential risks.

You are in Colorado - literally the tip of the spear for legislations in other states. States have a long track record of more or less copying and pasting laws from early adopting states for almost everything. You should be writing articles about pharmacy issues involving cannabis and submitting them to papers in states considering legalization.

This is where you should be directing this energy not SDN.

1) A lot of people use cannabis for recreation. We are NOT in the business of dispensing drugs for recreation. 2) A large portion of our clientele are older more conservative people. We would be driving their business away. 3) Still a lot of conflicting evidence behind MJ's medical uses. It's a difficult drug to run RCTs on (how are you going to blind the control group?). Most studies involve synthetic derivatives like marinol which we DO dispense. 4) MJ is still illegal on the federal level. Meanwhile pharmacy is THE most regulated health care profession. We got the FDA, DEA, state board, insurances, company policies up our ass. Also I don't see pharmacies switching to running as a cash only business like dispensaries.

I have a degree in international agriculture and speak fluent Farsi. My job experience outside of the military is as an aid worker in developing countries before joining. USAID was just gutted. I was actually doing my masters distance at Texas A&M in crop breeding and plant genetics because I planned to apply to the state department's ARS and transition to the reserves. Any job that I could get with my background would probably be a contractors position back in Afghanistan that would pay well but not have any benefits that I can give to my son. I found a position as an interpreter in Bahrain two years ago that I could have gotten with the Navy. 72 hours on 24 off rotations. Paid 70K per year.

Yes, I have options outside the military but they are not conducive to raising a special needs son

With your background in agriculture and genetics, can't you get a job in pharmaceuticals, food industry, environmental testing, EPA...? Still strange to me that pharmacy is the one and only path you can go down. BTW If you're worried about having time to care for your son, being a retail pharmacist is one of the worst thing you can be. You'll have to work long hours (10-12 hour shifts) and work a lot of weekends as well.

 

[sozetone]

Sooo... one thing I have noticed is that pharmacists as a community don't seem to be as well organized as other professions. If I can be honest you should be directing all this disgruntlement towards politicians.

Right now there are states that are allowing medicinal cannabis dispensaries to open that are not legally mandated to have a staff pharmacist on duty to sell the product. Pharmacists should be raising holy hell in Illinois and threatening to flip entire districts over this outrage. And I am dead serious about outrage.. There is a plethora of research that well documents the cognitive impact of regular cannabis use in addition to its immunosuppressive qualities. There is a very real need to have pharmacists on staff that can explain that THC and medicinal marijuana is not a silver bullet to be used broadly for every single issue and the potential risks.

You are in Colorado - literally the tip of the spear for legislations in other states. States have a long track record of more or less copying and pasting laws from early adopting states for almost everything. You should be writing articles about pharmacy issues involving cannabis and submitting them to papers in states considering legalization.

This is where you should be directing this energy not SDN.

I am a pharmacist, I have no involvement with cannabis. Nor do i want any.

 

[sozetone]

I don't believe that will remain true for long. People aren't going to sit around jobless while interest builds up on their $200k debt. I predict it won't be long before every opening in small farm towns will get hundreds of applicants. When I graduated a few years ago, companies were offering $20k bonuses and +$60/hr wages (which is high considering the low COL) for hard to hire areas. Is that even still happening anymore?

Surprised there's still no reponses from actual pre-pharms other than BC who's in a unique situation where his tuition will be fully paid for and he will most likely end up in a secure government job. Meanwhile school application/interview threads are still blowing up on here.

I am in BFE and the salaries are dropping, I have 30 applicants minimum per spot. 50/hr roughly 32 to 65 hr/2 week period. There is your reality.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

1) A lot of people use cannabis for recreation. We are NOT in the business of dispensing drugs for recreation. 2) A large portion of our clientele are older more conservative people. We would be driving their business away. 3) Still a lot of conflicting evidence behind MJ's medical uses. It's a difficult drug to run RCTs on (how are you going to blind the control group?). Most studies involve synthetic derivatives like marinol which we DO dispense. 4) MJ is still illegal on the federal level. Meanwhile pharmacy is THE most regulated health care profession. We got the FDA, DEA, state board, insurances, company policies up our ass. Also I don't see pharmacies switching to running as a cash only business like dispensaries.


With your background in agriculture and genetics, can't you get a job in pharmaceuticals, food industry, environmental testing, EPA...? Still strange to me that pharmacy is the one and only path you can go down. BTW If you're worried about having time to care for your son, being a retail pharmacist is one of the worst thing you can be. You'll have to work long hours (10-12 hour shifts) and work a lot of weekends as well.

My degree in agriculture is economics and social science heavy. It's interdisciplinary and geared towards development. I didn't finish my master's which would have landed me a job at the USDA making 45-60K per year as a researcher or extension agent.

Needs of the Army. They will pay for a pharmacy degree which I can then use as a stepping stone to a PhD or something else when I retire in 10 years. I will still have my GI bill to pay for law school or whatever comes next so that I am not fighting 50 other pharmacists for a retail position at CVS/Walmart/Walgreens/Rite Aid/etc.

I personally am against cannabis use as a medicine. I think it's benefits are overstated in comparison to the obvious drawbacks. However, if you go into Walmart and go to the natural medicine section they are selling colloidal silver at $20 a bottle which causes irreversible blackening of the skin if too much is ingested. There are a lot of things that probably should not be sold to the public without a pharmacist being involved. My original point still remains, you should be directing these sentiments at politicians not just venting on SDN.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

You don’t learn about cannabis in pharmacy school, just like you don’t learn about specialty drugs in school, so what makes you think any new grad off the street would qualify for a role like that? An analogy is that you may get some exposure to specialty drugs during your therapeutics class but that hardly makes you an expert— hence you need a PGY-2 in said specialty area of interest before being able to practice (i.e. oncology).

I disagree that you need pharmacists working in medical cannabis dispensaries. You’re either saying that 1) There is a business need for dispensaries to hire someone at $120k to “counsel” on one drug, or 2) if medical marijuana is really a niche area, you’d need a PGY-2 in Medical Cannabis before practicing. Neither of those business models make sense. If anything, I’d rather pay $120k to a PA specializing in medical marijuana who can assess whether someone really needs it or not and preccribe it on the spot.

OK, then you are giving up political leverage that can be used to influence things like school accreditation through a state board of education. Cannabis is a politically important issue to constituents and potential source of tax revenue. As a profession this is an opportunity, if not to generate some jobs, to at least apply a little pressure to protect legitimate positions from being eroded.

 

[BC_89]

Needs of the Army. They will pay for a pharmacy degree which I can then use as a stepping stone to a PhD or something else when I retire in 10 years. I will still have my GI bill to pay for law school or whatever comes next so that I am not fighting 50 other pharmacists for a retail position at CVS/Walmart/Walgreens/Rite Aid/etc.

Unless it’s GI bill or ROTC waiver for prior service (assuming your not over age), I don’t know what you mean about Army paying for school. There is no green-to-gold for pharmacy nor a need (A want...not a need).

What you could do is enroll in PSLF after collecting loans from school, accept the initial 120k loan payment the army does (~95k after taxes and what not), then report your military pay stub annually for 120 months and avoid a tax bomb. Personally, I’d just keep throwing signing bonuses over my career toward loans and have it all paid out. I also believe (may not apply for O3E) you could qualify for a 30k tsp loan at 1% apr to alleviate refinacing. I Need to double check if that’s not just for newly O1s or not.

Personally, I’d burn that GI Bill before the entitlement is taken away as some of Congress reps are currently trying to do so. Should you get in as a pharmacist afterwards once you hit field battalion level it’s mostly admin work. Stay past 20 and collect a higher pension or cross right over to the VA (you get priority) and some would even put you as a GS13 step 1 if you take advantage of army residency and a retirement. Between that and pension you don’t need a PhD or JD.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

Unless it’s GI bill or ROTC waiver for prior service (assuming your not over age), I don’t know what you mean about Army paying for school. There is no green-to-gold for pharmacy nor a need (A want...not a need).

What you could do is enroll in PSLF after collecting loans from school, accept the initial 120k loan payment the army does (~95k after taxes and what not), then report your military pay stub annually for 120 months and avoid a tax bomb. Personally, I’d just keep throwing signing bonuses over my career toward loans and have it all paid out. I also believe (may not apply for O3E) you could qualify for a 30k tsp loan at 1% apr to alleviate refinacing. I Need to double check if that’s not just for newly O1s or not.

Personally, I’d burn that GI Bill before the entitlement is taken away as some of Congress reps are currently trying to do so. Should you get in as a pharmacist afterwards once you hit field battalion level it’s mostly admin work. Stay past 20 and collect a higher pension or cross right over to the VA (you get priority) and some would even put you as a GS13 step 1 if you take advantage of army residency and a retirement. Between that and pension you don’t need a PhD or JD.

OK, so I talked to a medical recruiter today actually just to confirm. I'm applying to a non-pharmcas state school since my husband is there with our kids while I am deployed. They repay my student loans up to 120K over three years. I may go ahead and finish my 20, apply to the VA, and then buy back my time so that I only have to work 10 years to get the second retirement. I'm already at 12 and have a degree, so I don't need green-to-gold. Total tuition for this school will be 90K, so they will not pay for pharmacy up front, but they will pay for it nevertheless. I will go back to being a lieutenant most likely and start over again as a captain upon graduation. If everything works out I may transition to the reserves at 20 if I can get a FDA job and try to make LTC or COL before dropping a sanctuary packet for full retirement.

 

[BC_89]

OK, so I talked to a medical recruiter today actually just to confirm. I'm applying to a non-pharmcas state school since my husband is there with our kids while I am deployed. They repay my student loans up to 120K over three years. I may go ahead and finish my 20, apply to the VA, and then buy back my time so that I only have to work 10 years to get the second retirement. I'm already at 12 and have a degree, so I don't need green-to-gold. Total tuition for this school will be 90K, so they will not pay for pharmacy up front, but they will pay for it nevertheless. I will go back to being a lieutenant most likely and start over again as a captain upon graduation. If everything works out I may transition to the reserves at 20 if I can get a FDA job and try to make LTC or COL before dropping a sanctuary packet for full retirement.

So yes: Like I said, it’s 120k (~ 90k after taxes) for a 3 year initial obligation or a lump sum of 30k at first duty station. Keep in mind, it’ll take at least 1 year from your licensure (meaning PharmD in hand not graduation) to get picked up IF your packet is done correctly.

I’m not sure what you mean by go back as a lieutenant. This isn’t the IPAP Program or a green-to-gold anything. You either maintain your rank in the Reserves or you go to school while under IRR. Then you automatically get O3E (higher in very rare circumstances with residency + years of work).

Also, if you plan to do 20 then retire, you cannot buy back time for the VA. You start from the bottom. Your making a couple big assumptions the AMEDD recruiters never tell you:

1) 12 years prior service and if you remain in reserves during school: Red Flag. Medcom hates taking in people with 16 good years (especially already as an officer) due to investments in you vs your obligation to the Army does not come off as a fair trade off.

2) MEDCOM in garrison vs field unit pharmacist: theyll never let you go reserves after 20 while currently being AD. Don’t expect it.

Your past the halfway mark and Army wants pharmacists, but they don’t “need” pharmacists. Your competing with people (like me) who’ve worked as NCOs in the pharmacy with less TIS AND fresh new grads with reserve time or no time. With your service being so long down this path, don’t assume army will take you in 5 years time from now (+1 year after you get your pharmD). They trying to push people out (even me right now though I’m still fighting it).

Like I said, don’t take that GI Bill lightly.

 

[BC_89]

OK, so I talked to a medical recruiter today actually just to confirm. I'm applying to a non-pharmcas state school since my husband is there with our kids while I am deployed. They repay my student loans up to 120K over three years. I may go ahead and finish my 20, apply to the VA, and then buy back my time so that I only have to work 10 years to get the second retirement. I'm already at 12 and have a degree, so I don't need green-to-gold. Total tuition for this school will be 90K, so they will not pay for pharmacy up front, but they will pay for it nevertheless. I will go back to being a lieutenant most likely and start over again as a captain upon graduation. If everything works out I may transition to the reserves at 20 if I can get a FDA job and try to make LTC or COL before dropping a sanctuary packet for full retirement.

I read your past posts, and noticed a trend...

Your a CPT that works at S1 but took the DAT for dental school, yet made a notion to turn toward medical school and preparing for the MCAT and considered Caribbean (terrible move). Now all of a sudden a month later your trying to prepare for the PCAT....

Do NOT rush these assessments nor “settle” for pharmacy. It is not up for HPSP for a reason...I can’t help but question why all of a sudden pharmacy. With your TIS and lack of healthcare experience to this point, I strongly encourage you to focus elsewhere. Nonetheless, at the least don’t train overseas expecting to do decent on a health assessment test and not think GPA and experience are not important. Wait til you return to home and focus your energy on that.

If you remain to settle with this, then I suggest if somehow in the future you get in....use your GI Bill....

 

[sozetone]

My degree in agriculture is economics and social science heavy. It's interdisciplinary and geared towards development. I didn't finish my master's which would have landed me a job at the USDA making 45-60K per year as a researcher or extension agent.

Needs of the Army. They will pay for a pharmacy degree which I can then use as a stepping stone to a PhD or something else when I retire in 10 years. I will still have my GI bill to pay for law school or whatever comes next so that I am not fighting 50 other pharmacists for a retail position at CVS/Walmart/Walgreens/Rite Aid/etc.

I personally am against cannabis use as a medicine. I think it's benefits are overstated in comparison to the obvious drawbacks. However, if you go into Walmart and go to the natural medicine section they are selling colloidal silver at $20 a bottle which causes irreversible blackening of the skin if too much is ingested. There are a lot of things that probably should not be sold to the public without a pharmacist being involved. My original point still remains, you should be directing these sentiments at politicians not just venting on SDN.

Ok duly noted.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I am sure you`ve read many of recent posts here.

The kids are just happy to be in the school and make commitment.
For next 3 to 5 years, they can dream, tell their parents of the plan and stay busy. They don`t give a crap about consequences.

They are young. They have mindset of 'thing will eventually work out if I put enough effort to it'.
It won`t turn out that way for most of them at this point.

Kids still going to pharmacy school in year 2018 planning to graduate in year 2023. It`s unbelievable and scary.
90% of them will be signing $200000 slavery contract and say good bye to their dignity without even realizing.

This is some real **** right here.

We all want to make mommy and daddy proud and have a dream/commitment and become a "doctor"..... but if the job market is in the ****ter, the only thing you'll have accomplished within 4 years of grad school is the following: ruined your life with a specialized degree (PharmD) that comes with 200k+ in loans and no job prospects, nor does it translate well to other areas of jobs.

Some of you pre-pharmers still think we're kidding. We're not. If it was 10 years ago, you'd turn out fine and land a job somewhere. It's not going to be that way ever again for new grads.

Advice if you're already in pharmacy school: Take out the least loans possible, work during school, network and use LinkedIn and HUNT jobs down. If you're single and not opposed to moving, military loan repayment programs (in return for 3-4 years of service) are a great idea. Indian Health Care is also a great way to get loans paid back if you can suffer in BFE for years.

 

[Timbo]

This is some real **** right here.

We all want to make mommy and daddy proud and have a dream/commitment and become a "doctor"..... but if the job market is in the ****ter, the only thing you'll have accomplished within 4 years of grad school is the following: ruined your life with a specialized degree (PharmD) that comes with 200k+ in loans and no job prospects, nor does it translate well to other areas of jobs.

Some of you pre-pharmers still think we're kidding. We're not. If it was 10 years ago, you'd turn out fine and land a job somewhere. It's not going to be that way ever again for new grads.

Advice if you're already in pharmacy school: Take out the least loans possible, work during school, network and use LinkedIn and HUNT jobs down. If you're single and not opposed to moving, military loan repayment programs (in return for 3-4 years of service) are a great idea. Indian Health Care is also a great way to get loans paid back if you can suffer in BFE for years.

Honestly, if you're P1 or heck even P2, I recommend you just drop out. This year, 2018 marks the tipping point of pharmacy. If you follow PDI, demand:supply has been steadily dropping for the past 10 years and last year was when it finally crossed the threshold where supply > demand. The pharmacist surplus is now in full effect.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

So yes: Like I said, it’s 120k (~ 90k after taxes) for a 3 year initial obligation or a lump sum of 30k at first duty station. Keep in mind, it’ll take at least 1 year from your licensure (meaning PharmD in hand not graduation) to get picked up IF your packet is done correctly.

I’m not sure what you mean by go back as a lieutenant. This isn’t the IPAP Program or a green-to-gold anything. You either maintain your rank in the Reserves or you go to school while under IRR. Then you automatically get O3E (higher in very rare circumstances with residency + years of work).

Also, if you plan to do 20 then retire, you cannot buy back time for the VA. You start from the bottom. Your making a couple big assumptions the AMEDD recruiters never tell you:

1) 12 years prior service and if you remain in reserves during school: Red Flag. Medcom hates taking in people with 16 good years (especially already as an officer) due to investments in you vs your obligation to the Army does not come off as a fair trade off.

2) MEDCOM in garrison vs field unit pharmacist: theyll never let you go reserves after 20 while currently being AD. Don’t expect it.

Your past the halfway mark and Army wants pharmacists, but they don’t “need” pharmacists. Your competing with people (like me) who’ve worked as NCOs in the pharmacy with less TIS AND fresh new grads with reserve time or no time. With your service being so long down this path, don’t assume army will take you in 5 years time from now (+1 year after you get your pharmD). They trying to push people out (even me right now though I’m still fighting it).

Like I said, don’t take that GI Bill lightly.

First of all where are you getting your information? I think you have a conditional release confused with REFRAD and IRR confused with being an m-day Soldier in the reserves. Trust me that I will be looking at all my options before I push my packet, including the loan repayment.

 

[BC_89]

First of all where are you getting your information? I think you have a conditional release confused with REFRAD and IRR confused with being an m-day Soldier in the reserves. Trust me that I will be looking at all my options before I push my packet, including the loan repayment.

My information comes with working with board AMEDD reps and Chief Pharmacy Supervisors who set-up interviews and assess BOLC for medical professional licensure officers.

What is it that I stated that seems confusing? I never mentioned REFRAD (very few if any get it even with an ADSO waiver).

There is no packet for the loan repayment your talking about until AFTER you received your licensure. Meaning, took on loans and went to school for 4 years full-time. I don’t know if your assuming or already been granted a conditional release, but if your presuming you’ll get a conditional release for pharmacy in hopes to drop a packet for loan payments afterwards, it won’t happen for this specific job specialty.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

I read your past posts, and noticed a trend...

Your a CPT that works at S1 but took the DAT for dental school, yet made a notion to turn toward medical school and preparing for the MCAT and considered Caribbean (terrible move). Now all of a sudden a month later your trying to prepare for the PCAT....

Do NOT rush these assessments nor “settle” for pharmacy. It is not up for HPSP for a reason...I can’t help but question why all of a sudden pharmacy. With your TIS and lack of healthcare experience to this point, I strongly encourage you to focus elsewhere. Nonetheless, at the least don’t train overseas expecting to do decent on a health assessment test and not think GPA and experience are not important. Wait til you return to home and focus your energy on that.

If you remain to settle with this, then I suggest if somehow in the future you get in....use your GI Bill....

I respect your views, but I truly do not think you understand the desperation of my current situation. And I don't mean to be snide, but I don't think you have lived the life of someone in a combat arms unit and done the 16 hour days in garrison or NTC rotations or gone to the field at Fort Hood during the summer for 4 months at a time living in a tent with no air conditioning when the temperature outside is 110. I have taken all the prereqs for medical and dental school under these circumstances and I have hit a wall with making my applications more competitive. I can't get the time from my command to go shadow to the extent that I need and I can't get LORs. Almost all of these classes were done online and most of my professors from undergrad don't remember me because it was 15 years ago. I have kids, I can't REFRAD to go back to school for two years to do a post-bacc. My GPA is OK, but I'm not rocking a 3.9 that would make weak LORs and online prereqs less of an issue.

Prepping for a healthcare assessment overseas is cake compared to doing it in garrison while caring for two infants alone and being in and out of the field constantly. Trust me, I am doing it right now and it is nothing compared to what I had to go through with the DAT.

I'm sorry to say this, but I have a really crappy plan, but at least it's a plan. I've looked at all my options realistically and this is it. I still have time to change directions in my career and I'm not waiting until the last minute to do it. If you want to say that I am "settling" for pharmacy that's fine, I personally don't see it this way.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

My information comes with working with board AMEDD reps and Chief Pharmacy Supervisors who set-up interviews and assess BOLC for medical professional licensure officers.

What is it that I stated that seems confusing? I never mentioned REFRAD (very few if any get it even with an ADSO waiver).

There is no packet for the loan repayment your talking about until AFTER you received your licensure. Meaning, took on loans and went to school for 4 years full-time. I don’t know if your assuming or already been granted a conditional release, but if your presuming you’ll get a conditional release for pharmacy in hopes to drop a packet for loan payments afterwards, it won’t happen for this specific job specialty.

So what you're saying is that HRC won't approve a conditional release for pharmacy school because a pharmacy officer up there is going to shoot it down?

 

[VictorOfHungerGames]

I am sure you`ve read many of recent posts here.

The kids are just happy to be in the school and make commitment.
For next 3 to 5 years, they can dream, tell their parents of the plan and stay busy. They don`t give a crap about consequences.

They are young. They have mindset of 'thing will eventually work out if I put enough effort to it'.
It won`t turn out that way for most of them at this point.

Kids still going to pharmacy school in year 2018 planning to graduate in year 2023. It`s unbelievable and scary.
90% of them will be signing $200000 slavery contract and say good bye to their dignity without even realizing.

Well, you have to also consider that some people will have undergrad debt to carry over...

Owning my own pharmacies one day is my ultimate goal, anyone in Texas wanna join? haha

 

[BC_89]

I respect your views, but I truly do not think you understand the desperation of my current situation. And I don't mean to be snide, but I don't think you have lived the life of someone in a combat arms unit and done the 16 hour days in garrison or NTC rotations or gone to the field at Fort Hood during the summer for 4 months at a time living in a tent with no air conditioning when the temperature outside is 110. I have taken all the prereqs for medical and dental school under these circumstances and I have hit a wall with making my applications more competitive. I can't get the time from my command to go shadow to the extent that I need and I can't get LORs. Almost all of these classes were done online and most of my professors from undergrad don't remember me because it was 15 years ago. I have kids, I can't REFRAD to go back to school for two years to do a post-bacc. My GPA is OK, but I'm not rocking a 3.9 that would make weak LORs and online prereqs less of an issue.

Prepping for a healthcare assessment overseas is cake compared to doing it in garrison while caring for two infants alone and being in and out of the field constantly. Trust me, I am doing it right now and it is nothing compared to what I had to go through with the DAT.

I'm sorry to say this, but I have a really crappy plan, but at least it's a plan. I've looked at all my options realistically and this is it. I still have time to change directions in my career and I'm not waiting until the last minute to do it. If you want to say that I am "settling" for pharmacy that's fine, I personally don't see it this way.

To help you understand (CPT)....

I was 11B (so..infantry), been to the sandbox, and I was part of the Air Assault cadre at Ft Hood year-round.. I also earned my BS in Biochem with two kids and a 30 year old sybling with autism. Being hard on the family with my deployments, I was able to re-enlist as a pharmacy specialist and work close with MEDCOM as an NCO on the “health-care” side of the army.

My medical discharge pending is combat related as well as at one point could have kept me out of a career working with patients (read my past thread with engineering).

Not being sly myself, but you’ve talked with other users on here in military medicine and if you did the slightest research you would never think to ask certain questions (Caribbean....really?) and if studying abroad is “cakewalk” for you vs studying with kids at home, you wouldn’t “settle” with Pharmacy.

Your plan is terrible because of your assumptions with conditional releases and the pharmacy career. So, if I tell you it won’t work, do your own research and see what happens. I chose to not stay a grunt or comission without my professional licensure. So in the end, you can have your opinions but I’ll only give you facts of what I know. You do you.

Side-note: My apologize to @sozetone for hijacking the thread, but I do think it’s important to note that even for the uniformed services the healthcare field in general is competitive, and/or a bad trade-off for those that don’t approach the facts.

 

[rebecca_chatul_tov]

To help you understand (CPT)....

I was 11B (so..infantry), been to the sandbox, and I was part of the Air Assault cadre at Ft Hood year-round.. I also earned my BS in Biochem with two kids and a 30 year old sybling with autism. Being hard on the family with my deployments, I was able to re-enlist as a pharmacy specialist and work close with MEDCOM as an NCO on the “health-care” side of the army.

My medical discharge pending is combat related as well as at one point could have kept me out of a career working with patients (read my past thread with engineering).

Not being sly myself, but you’ve talked with other users on here in military medicine and if you did the slightest research you would never think to ask certain questions (Caribbean....really?) and if studying abroad is “cakewalk” for you vs studying with kids at home, you wouldn’t “settle” with Pharmacy.

Your plan is terrible because of your assumptions with conditional releases and the pharmacy career. So, if I tell you it won’t work, do your own research and see what happens. I chose to not stay a grunt or comission without my professional licensure. So in the end, you can have your opinions but I’ll only give you facts of what I know. You do you.

Side-note: My apologize to @sozetone for hijacking the thread, but I do think it’s important to note that even for the uniformed services the healthcare field in general is competitive, and/or a bad trade-off for those that don’t approach the facts.

I am sorry for your medical discharge and all the issues that come with that, but you of all people should understand that life circumstances and family can change your career plans unexpectedly, especially since you have an EFMP family member too! I am desperately trying to figure out a new direction in life right now before I am too far along in my career to do something else. Have you ever tried being an S1? It isn't great a lot of the time.

First of all, if I can't ask questions here on SDN then where should I ask them? Apparently, the AMEDD recruiters that I spoke with didn't give me great info, so I should probably thank you for digging through my posts and throwing them in my face. When I called back and asked the same questions about pharmacy again I got different answers from the first time I asked them that were more in line with what you have said.

 

[BC_89]

I am sorry for your medical discharge and all the issues that come with that, but you of all people should understand that life circumstances and family can change your career plans unexpectedly, especially since you have an EFMP family member too! I am desperately trying to figure out a new direction in life right now before I am too far along in my career to do something else. Have you ever tried being an S1? It isn't great a lot of the time.

First of all, if I can't ask questions here on SDN then where should I ask them? Apparently, the AMEDD recruiters that I spoke with didn't give me great info, so I should probably thank you for digging through my posts and throwing them in my face. When I called back and asked the same questions about pharmacy again I got different answers from the first time I asked them that were more in line with what you have said.

AMEDD Recruiters unfortunately are usually nurses/PAs/or MDs about to retire. Pharmacy is different from all them especially the packets.

To get perspective from current pharmacists in other branches, I would pm @dereku who was prior service ARMY and now current AIRFORCE pharmacist Lt. Colonel. A few other army pharmacists on here as well but they are not active on SDN. I think his perspective may help with your insight and current time in service.

 

[sozetone]

This thread was a simple question......the results met my expectations.

 

[Farmer83]

I feel that the job market is saturated and that eventually market forces will force some schools to close because salaries in the field will be so depressed that no one will attend their programs. It's probably going to get worse for at least the next 10-15 years before you see some market parity in the field again. Some states and areas have niche areas where it might be possible to start an independent pharmacy and service a specific set of the population. I'm thinking Dodge City or Liberal, KS where a cash business would be feasible and you could compete in the Hispanic community.

I am currently on active duty and will be doing a release from the RA to go into the IRR and upon graduation I will go back to active duty, do a residency and get student loan repayment. Unless, my packet falls apart due to some random reason this is a given. I'm already in the system.

I will probably have around $120K in student debt. I expect to make 65K per year for the first three years after graduation (not including loan repayment) with AMEDD bonus pay thereafter.

Knowing that the profession is unstable and that I will need to do something to make myself marketable after the Army I will probably immediately go the route of getting more education as soon as possible. I know that my 3.35 GPA isn't competitive for a lot of fields and I am using PharmD basically like a post-bacc program. I will actively cultivate relationships with my professors so that when I do apply to a PhD program in medicinal chemistry, etc. that I have glowing letters of reference and a drastically improved GPA so that I can get into my first choice of program.

Worst case scenario I end up working for the VA or as a DoD civilian at an overseas clinic. This is my insight into todays pharmacy job market: I don't need to makes lots of money. What I need to do is get to 20 years of service so that I can elect to give my pension to my son with Downs Syndrome so I don't have to worry about him eating out of dumpster or living in a cardboard box when I am gone.

Pharmacy will get me there and I can get into a program with the GPA and LORs I have today. It's a better option than getting out of the Army with a criminal justice degree, doing an MBA, and thinking that I am going to find a great job just because I was an Army officer and went on a couple of deployments. That's what all my peers are doing and trust me the job market is saturated with post-military officers.

I envy your route. I almost wish I had this much foresight in pharmacy school 10 years ago to get my act together and just serve for the military as a pharmacist. But alas, I count my blessing as I luckily landed as a civilian in a DoD pharmacy. I also hope to just do a 20-30 year stint to get a decent pension, hopefully retire with an awesome TSP, pay off my student loans in 10 years by the PSLF program, and forget the reason why I ever pursued pharmacy in the first place. The benefits and flexibility to laterally transfer to another DoD, DHA, or VA pharmacy is worth every penny.

 

[BC_89]

I envy your route. I almost wish I had this much foresight in pharmacy school 10 years ago to get my act together and just serve for the military as a pharmacist. But alas, I count my blessing as I luckily landed as a civilian in a DoD pharmacy. I also hope to just do a 20-30 year stint to get a decent pension, hopefully retire with an awesome TSP, pay off my student loans in 10 years by the PSLF program, and forget the reason why I ever pursued pharmacy in the first place. The benefits and flexibility to laterally transfer to another DoD, DHA, or VA pharmacy is worth every penny.

I’m curious, with no prior military service did you yourself have to do a PGY1 before working at the VA or did you simply have enough prior work experience to get hired on?

 

[sozetone]

These guys are just wasting their time, efforts, and breath....

 

[Saisri_PharmStdnt]

I wasn't going to originally reply, but here you go....

Please tell me after researching a little, what is your perception of the job market today and for the future?
The market is particularly saturated in the big cities - there are some jobs, but they may not be the ideal ones that people are interested in working (which is a shame, because any pharmacist position is a learning experience to help you grow).

But if you're willing to relocate - there are options.

Do you feel you will have no problems finding a full time job and benefits upon graduation? if so, why?
I am one of the exceptions to the rule. I personally will not have difficulty because I have been working for a PBM for the last 15 years, and they are supporting my endeavor to get my PharmD so that I can take on more responsibilities that require the degree and license.

What is your expected debt upon graduation?
I expect it to be high, which is an even bigger deal for me as a non-traditional student (2x the age of some of my soon to be classmates, married, 2 kids, etc), but I'm still filling out scholarship forms and such - I can get back to you if you want

How much annually do you expect to make upon graduation to pay back the loan/s ?
I haven't asked specifically what new pharmacists make in our area, but I would think it will be in the 110-120K range. My expectation is to pay a couple thousand a month towards loans, depending on what my outstanding debt is in order to pay it off as quickly as possible while knowing that my oldest will be starting college the year after I graduate, so.....


My answers are in no way typical of what most pre-pharm students will experience - Unless you, too, would like to wait til your 40s..

 

[BC_89]

I wasn't going to originally reply, but here you go....

Please tell me after researching a little, what is your perception of the job market today and for the future?
The market is particularly saturated in the big cities - there are some jobs, but they may not be the ideal ones that people are interested in working (which is a shame, because any pharmacist position is a learning experience to help you grow).

But if you're willing to relocate - there are options.

Do you feel you will have no problems finding a full time job and benefits upon graduation? if so, why?
I am one of the exceptions to the rule. I personally will not have difficulty because I have been working for a PBM for the last 15 years, and they are supporting my endeavor to get my PharmD so that I can take on more responsibilities that require the degree and license.

What is your expected debt upon graduation?
I expect it to be high, which is an even bigger deal for me as a non-traditional student (2x the age of some of my soon to be classmates, married, 2 kids, etc), but I'm still filling out scholarship forms and such - I can get back to you if you want

How much annually do you expect to make upon graduation to pay back the loan/s ?
I haven't asked specifically what new pharmacists make in our area, but I would think it will be in the 110-120K range. My expectation is to pay a couple thousand a month towards loans, depending on what my outstanding debt is in order to pay it off as quickly as possible while knowing that my oldest will be starting college the year after I graduate, so.....


My answers are in no way typical of what most pre-pharm students will experience - Unless you, too, would like to wait til your 40s..

I’m finding that many of us nontrads are indeed the exception and outliers. We know what’s ahead with good contingencies and back-ups. Despite the turn of events in many careers, it’s simple: prepare for the worst and have a written plan.

 

[sozetone]

I’m finding that many of us nontrads are indeed the exception and outliers. We know what’s ahead with good contingencies and back-ups. Despite the turn of events in many careers, it’s simple: prepare for the worst and have a written plan.

Agreed, ive got an exit strategy all lined up myself. Problem for the new graduates is it's too late. before they know it, they have drowned with no prospects. I'm glad to see current students thinking about what else they can do to enjoy their career and life. Because if thats what you want, it will not happen in ANY area of pharmacy. Sad but true...