What are my chances applying neurology this year?

[DrStephenStrange]

So I am at one of the newer DO schools and also URM/black (if that makes a difference) applying Neuro this year.

Step 1 and Level 1 didn't turn out great with a 204 and 425 (on first attempt).
Still working on Step 2 and Level 2, and my scores won't come out until 2 weeks into the cycle.
Research: 2 bench lab projects, 2 abstracts, 1 poster presentation (neuro related), 0 pubs
Letters are decent I think. 2 great neuro letters (one from a recent Sub-I that I did great on and already landed me 1 interview), 1 psych, 1 IM
3rd year Clinical grades: All HP and H, Honored neuro, Honored IM

I have two questions:
1) How bad will not having step2/level2 until two weeks into the cycle hurt me?
2) How many programs should I apply to?

Will I have to apply to 100+ programs to have a shot at neuro? I'm dead set on this path and I can't back out now. I will do anything to match.

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[Thama]

I think you'll match but you'll need to send applications to a LOT of programs to be confident. You may get a sense for how many interviews you need to go on by how many programs offer you interviews. You probably won't be able to be picky about region, program type, etc at all.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I think you'll match but you'll need to send applications to a LOT of programs to be confident. You may get a sense for how many interviews you need to go on by how many programs offer you interviews. You probably won't be able to be picky about region, program type, etc at all.

I hope so, and I won't mind wherever I go as long it's not malignant (although there is no way to really know). My plan so far is to apply to at least 100-120 programs all categorical. Do you think I should be applying to advance and IM prelims as well? I wanted to avoid those because sometimes you may match one but not the other, and also didn't like the whole supplemental application thing for IM Prelims.

 

[Thama]

I hope so, and I won't mind wherever I go as long it's not malignant (although there is no way to really know). My plan so far is to apply to at least 100-120 programs all categorical. Do you think I should be applying to advance and IM prelims as well? I wanted to avoid those because sometimes you may match one but not the other, and also didn't like the whole supplemental application thing for IM Prelims.

That's annoying and I certainly avoided it, but I don't think you can be picky here. You can always rank categoricals first to reduce the issue.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

That's annoying and I certainly avoided it, but I don't think you can be picky here. You can always rank categoricals first to reduce the issue.

Alright got it. Most programs are categorical anyway, so I guess I'll throw in another 20 advance and prelims in there and make it 120-140. Thank you for the advice. I really hope I will match somewhere.

 

[BlueBleck]

Had a friend with your stats. URM as well. They got as many IVs as I did as an ORM + 239 step1. It feels like URM still matters, especially given how neurology is a bit lacking in diversity. That person did not flaunt it or do DEI stuff. They were just a solid candidate and great human being. But, agreed with Thama. Overapply. It'll hurt financially, but you won't regret it.

I'd additionally recommend trying to network a bit using twitter if you're willing to stomach it. A lot of programs are making a very forced effort to be social. And so they're sticking a resident or two on their social media. It's quite the bridge to programs these days. You'll really stand out during IVs if you can talk about a program intelligently above what is listed on their website, which is what almost everyone will do at a baseline.

send me a pm!

 

[Thama]

Yeah - if you find that your 120 applications have yielded 60 interview invites, then it will be clear you can be more picky. But you don't want to err in the opposite direction.

 

[xenotype]

So I am at one of the newer DO schools (2nd class) and also URM/immigrant/black (if that makes a difference) applying Neuro this year.

Step 1 and Level 1 didn't turn out great with a 204 and 425 (on first attempt).
Still working on Step 2 and Level 2, and my scores won't come out until 2 weeks into the cycle.
Research: 2 bench lab projects, 2 abstracts, 1 poster presentation (neuro related), 0 pubs
Letters are decent I think. 2 great neuro letters (one from a recent Sub-I that I did great on and already landed me 1 interview), 1 psych, 1 IM
3rd year Clinical grades: All HP and H, Honored neuro, Honored IM

I have two questions:
1) How bad will not having step2/level2 until two weeks into the cycle hurt me?
2) How many programs should I apply to?

Will I have to apply to 100+ programs to have a shot at neuro? I'm dead set on this path and I can't back out now. I will do anything to match.

Make sure you update all the programs with step 2 once available. Apply widely especially with these virtual interviews it is a mess even for ultra competitive applicants. I think you'll match, and probably better than you expect in terms of choice so be careful with the rank list with so many programs. I've always felt board scores aren't everything to making a great neurologist but you'll need to continue studying hard to pass RITE and boards. Your clinical grades and research are great. The number of interview invites as Thama references will give you an idea of how good your position is.

Do aways if possible, somewhere you really want to be but not a reach place- aka realistic for you. These can sell yourself way better than stats on a page. Also, the vast majority of programs are not 'malignant' and really want you to succeed through training. You'll get some subtle red flags from the residents if something is truly off with the program compared to the rest.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Update: So far I have been both lucky and unlucky during the cycle. I did applied to 151 neuro programs and 22 prelims/TYs all guaranteed and linked to advanced neuro programs. I do consider myself lucky for having 11 interviews so far though. Low yield, but that was expected. I won't go into details about why I am unlucky until maybe later in the cycle for anonymity issues. If/when I do match, I will come back and talk more about this for people that may be going through the same experience.

But what do you guys think of my preliminary ranking so far for the programs I have interviews at? Is there any program you would rank higher or lower? Reasoning? I have no idea how to rank any programs past the top 3 besides Doximity ranking, size of the programs, university vs community programs, and newer vs older programs. All of them start to sound very similar from one another:

- Rush
- OHSU
- KU
- UF Jax
- Iowa *
- Prisma health/USC (Greer)
- Lehigh Valley
- UTHSC
- UNM
- Kettering *
- UPMC (Erie)
- Carle IL
- Nuvance health
Thank you so much for all the help!!!

* Edited for newer interviews

 

[Thama]

The 2 that jump out from that list to me are Rush and OHSU. Rush in particular I've had a fair amount of experience interacting with people in their department and think it's really really good.

As far as how to rank, it's a very personal thing. Location (and COL), schedule, vibe with residents, vibe with faculty, quality of faculty, presence of particular subspecialties, past fellowship and job placements are all very valid things to consider but their relative importance will be entirely up to you.

 

[xenotype]

These are some great places. Rush and OHSU have the most academic notoriety. Albuquerque is a very beautiful place- looking out over the desert city lights from the Sandia mountains is an incredible experience- I can't speak to the program itself. Jacksonville is a great city with high quality of life- competition with Mayo but they largely only take their own patients and it is a big city/metro area. Lehigh valley is a nice, inexpensive part of central PA with a decently large hospital- it is 'community' but has a lot of medical students and academic faculty due to a close relationship with USF of all places. KU will be a solid academic place and likely inexpensive.

Have to decide where you want to live- moreso than the programs themselves. Try to pick programs that do thrombectomies which will be most of these. Think hard about the weather and cost of living- including state income tax versus your stipend and meal benefits and how much an appt costs. Most of these programs are way cheaper with way higher quality of life than name brand programs. Make sure the residents seemed to be happy. You'll be on call and expected to go in at 2am in many of these programs. At UNM, UF, and OHSU there won't be ice on the roads to worry about. Rush on the other hand...

 

[Aldertonghen]

These are some great places. Rush and OHSU have the most academic notoriety. Albuquerque is a very beautiful place- looking out over the desert city lights from the Sandia mountains is an incredible experience- I can't speak to the program itself. Jacksonville is a great city with high quality of life- competition with Mayo but they largely only take their own patients and it is a big city/metro area. Lehigh valley is a nice, inexpensive part of central PA with a decently large hospital- it is 'community' but has a lot of medical students and academic faculty due to a close relationship with USF of all places. KU will be a solid academic place and likely inexpensive.

Have to decide where you want to live- moreso than the programs themselves. Try to pick programs that do thrombectomies which will be most of these. Think hard about the weather and cost of living- including state income tax versus your stipend and meal benefits and how much an appt costs. Most of these programs are way cheaper with way higher quality of life than name brand programs. Make sure the residents seemed to be happy. You'll be on call and expected to go in at 2am in many of these programs. At UNM, UF, and OHSU there won't be ice on the roads to worry about. Rush on the other hand...

As a non US IMG applying this season and having similar interviews, that’s really very helpful! I wasn’t aware that Lehigh has an affiliation with USF, good to know! Could you tell me a bit about how USF is? I’ve received an invite from there and was searching their website but they seem to lack a fair bit of info, including where graduates go after residency.

I would really love to go to a program where the weather is nice, and USF is so much better in this sense than UMinnesota, UMassachusetts and Henry Ford, three other decent programs that I’ve got from much colder places.

 

[Kingman123]

Hey OP, out of curiosity how much have your research experiences factored into the interviews you got? I'm an OMS-2 and the research I have is mostly from undergrad neuroscience research (5 presentations, and 2 pubs that got published in medical school). I'm just trying to see if I might need more research or if I should just focus on grades and such, thanks!

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Hey OP, out of curiosity how much have your research experiences factored into the interviews you got? I'm an OMS-2 and the research I have is mostly from undergrad neuroscience research (5 presentations, and 2 pubs that got published in medical school). I'm just trying to see if I might need more research or if I should just focus on grades and such, thanks!

I don't feel like my research experiences have helped much at all. I only have one neuro related poster presentation, my other projects aren't as relevant to the specialty. I still have a majority of my interviews left, but so far my research hasn't been mentioned in my interviews. I mean maybe they helped slightly because it's always better to have something in there, but I don't feel like research is huge for neurology unless you're going for ivory towers or something.

 

[kazill]

I don't feel like my research experiences have helped much at all. I only have one neuro related poster presentation, my other projects aren't as relevant to the specialty. I still have a majority of my interviews left, but so far my research hasn't been mentioned in my interviews. I mean maybe they helped slightly because it's always better to have something in there, but I don't feel like research is huge for neurology unless you're going for ivory towers or something.

Just to give a differing viewpoint, in nearly all my interviews so far (of which only one was at a major research institute) I’ve had questions about my research experiences and projects, both before and during medical school. That said, I’m a fairly research oriented person and have some fairly unique projects I’ve been a part of. Only one of my research projects was related to neurology as well.

The original person asking though probably doesn’t need more research unless they’re going for a research track or gunning for a big name program.

 

[Kingman123]

I don't feel like my research experiences have helped much at all. I only have one neuro related poster presentation, my other projects aren't as relevant to the specialty. I still have a majority of my interviews left, but so far my research hasn't been mentioned in my interviews. I mean maybe they helped slightly because it's always better to have something in there, but I don't feel like research is huge for neurology unless you're going for ivory towers or something.

Just to give a differing viewpoint, in nearly all my interviews so far (of which only one was at a major research institute) I’ve had questions about my research experiences and projects, both before and during medical school. That said, I’m a fairly research oriented person and have some fairly unique projects I’ve been a part of. Only one of my research projects was related to neurology as well.

The original person asking though probably doesn’t need more research unless they’re going for a research track or gunning for a big name program.

Thanks for the honest feedback! I did do some random summer project (non-neuro) in between M1-M2 but nothing came out of that, so I'm hoping i'll be fine. Good luck in the match! You guys will be fantastic neurologists!

 

[Chibucks15]

I had one super interesting neuro poster, 2 dumb ones and got asked all the time because it’s easy to ask about haha don’t look too much into it. Just have stuff on your app to talk about and you’re golden. Who cares what it is. Matched #1 and was a slightly below average DO

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Second Update: Since posting last time, I have gotten 2 more interview invites, University of Iowa (probably top 3 on my ROL now) and Kettering Health, so up to 13 programs. I'm actually shocked and humbled by the quantity and quality of these interviews I'm getting despite my low stats. At the same time, I never would have been able to guess which programs would invite me without applying broadly. I've sent 5 LOIs to programs I thought I would have a shot at, but they still ghosted me. This whole process is such a mystery to me at this point, but I am determined to survive it.

 

[BlueBleck]

My experience seems to be the middle ground. My application was decently balanced and only a handful of people asked about my research. It's been a while, but if I had to put a number on it, maybe 20%. I'd say 1/2-3/4th of my IVs were at academic institutions and half of those were research heavy institutions. To be fair though, I made it pretty clear with every interview that I wanted to be a clinician/teacher over a researcher. It was baked into my, "tell me about yourself," and, "where do you see yourself in 10 years," rehearsed answers.

Almost everyone asked about my hobbies though haha. I had some unique hobbies and some generic ones (coffee, which almost everyone related to).

 

[Aldertonghen]

Does a below average applicant (in terms of interview skills) match into their top 5 on the ROL? How common is it to go to #8 or even below for someone who’s not particularly great at interviewing?

 

[Chibucks15]

Does a below average applicant (in terms of interview skills) match into their top 5 on the ROL? How common is it to go to #8 or even below for someone who’s not particularly great at interviewing?

There’s data posted here and on Reddit. There are an incredible amount of variables to your question where it is impossible to answer.

Deep breath, do your best, and apply realistically and let the chips fall where they may

 

[slavicman]

Would someone be able to help me with my rank list? Would prefer to discuss via private messaging for anonymity purposes.

 

[hiiiiiiiiiii]

Would someone be able to help me with my rank list? Would prefer to discuss via private messaging for anonymity purposes.

I'd be happy to try and help! I'm also an M4 working on their match list so maybe we could bounce thoughts off each other. But no worries if you'd rather talk to someone further along in their training!

 

[Aldertonghen]

I'd be happy to try and help! I'm also an M4 working on their match list so maybe we could bounce thoughts off each other. But no worries if you'd rather talk to someone further along in their training!

Hey there! I'm also working on my ROL and would love to bounce thoughts off each other!

Merry Christmas!

 

[Captain_Falcon]

Not OP but I was wondering if anybody had thoughts about a psychiatry resident switching into neurology?

DO 250+/250+
1 neurology related publication
I've gotten good feedback from my rotations so far this year. Think I have a shot?

Currently an M3, but was wondering why the switch?

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Update #3: So I did take Comlex Level 2 at the end of September before applications were released to programs, and unfortunately I failed by 16 points on the first try. I still managed to get 13 interviews without it. Most of which (9) I pushed to the month of January. That way I could work my butt off to take Level 2 again in December, so I could have a score before ranking started in February. I ended up doing a lot better than the first time and passed.

I was very nervous up until today because with a failure on Level 2, my chances of matching decrease significantly. But now I am excited to say that I have actually matched into Neurology, and I can't wait to find out where on Friday.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Update #4: Found out today that I matched at my #9 ranked program. To be honest it still hurts that I fell that low considering how my interviews went, but I'm still grateful that I even matched into my dream specialty. My program is still in a decent sized city with very good training from what I can see. Cost of living is pretty good, and pay is also above average. I think I will be more than ok, and that I will receive all the tool I need to be successful there. Thank you for all those that helped and advised me during this process. I am forever grateful.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Update #5: Found out today that I matched at my #9 ranked program. To be honest it still hurts that I fell that low considering how my interviews went, but I'm still grateful that I even matched into my dream specialty. My program is still in a decent sized city with very good training from what I can see. Cost of living is pretty good, and pay is also above average. I think I will be more than ok, and that I will receive all the tool I need to be successful there. Thank you for all those that helped and advised me during this process. I am forever grateful.

Congrats

In the grand theme of things it won’t matter. You’ll still become a neurologist and will still have a fair shot at most neuro subspecialties if you choose to go further.

Welcome aboard and brace yourself for a very bumpy but equally rewarding ride

 

[xenotype]

Update #4: Found out today that I matched at my #9 ranked program. To be honest it still hurts that I fell that low considering how my interviews went, but I'm still grateful that I even matched into my dream specialty. My program is still in a decent sized city with very good training from what I can see. Cost of living is pretty good, and pay is also above average. I think I will be more than ok, and that I will receive all the tool I need to be successful there. Thank you for all those that helped and advised me during this process. I am forever grateful.

You won't really care about this #9 issue in a year or two, you are gonna be a neurologist. Congrats.

 

[Doctoscope]

Your journey has been inspirational for this premed applying to med school next year, highly interested in neurology. Congrats!

 

[Welp7]

Your journey has been inspirational for this premed applying to med school next year, highly interested in neurology. Congrats!

Incoming DO and I have the same sentiments! Congrats!

 

[EArlyBirdGetsTheWorm]

As someone that has been accepted to your alma mater and is very interested in neurology, its good to see that you matched. I'm curious to know where you matched and how helpful the school was in getting you there.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

As someone that has been accepted to your alma mater and is very interested in neurology, its good to see that you matched. I'm curious to know where you matched and how helpful the school was in getting you there.

Matched at a program located in a Midwestern urban area. Smaller sized program, but very well established with very decent fellowship match. The school wasn't really helpful in terms of residency applications or the match as I imagine most DO schools are. You have to put in the work yourself in terms of getting good connections to yield great letters of recs, and setting up your own away rotations during clinical years. At the end of the day though, it all works out if you put your head down and work hard for what you want.

 

[Nave]

Matched at a program located in a Midwestern urban area. Smaller sized program, but very well established with very decent fellowship match. The school wasn't really helpful in terms of residency applications or the match as I imagine most DO schools are. You have to put in the work yourself in terms of getting good connections to yield great letters of recs, and setting up your own away rotations during clinical years. At the end of the day though, it all works out if you put your head down and work hard for what you want.

Sorry for the necrobump. Can you PM me?