MD & DO WAMC: Older Non-trad - Where to focus my efforts?

[redmustardseed]

Older non-trad applying 2022-2023 cycle.
As you'll see below, a lot rides on my MCAT scores, which I'm studying for now. I tend to test well and I truly took the practice not having thought much about these subjects in more than 20 years just to get a baseline and wet my whistle.

****I especially need help figuring out a strategy as an older non-trad with a lot of clinical experience in advanced practice and nursing.
I need advice about:

- LORs in my situation - do I actually ask professors who taught me decades ago? My undergraduate research employer wrote me a beautiful letter for grad school but this was so long ago - she probably hardly remembers me.

My 2 recent graduate courses were in nursing, online, and honestly quite terrible although I received easy As. I do not trust these professors to write complete sentences let alone influential letters. I have a few MDs that I've consulted/collaborated with that I can ask letters of.

- Shadowing - I have none but have docs I can ask. How many hours do I need? Do I need LORs from separate docs than the ones I shadow?

- Since my courses are so old but my science GPAs were excellent, how important is it to take courses? For example, I took Orgo I & II with lab but never Biochem. Never microbio (but had in nursing school as part of other courses). Never intro psych but had nursing psych and have done some courses at a mental health institute not part of a university - do I include a letter from one of those professors?

- Should I do a 1 year master's or post-Bacc? Only 1 to 2 semesters of grades would be in by the time of my applications, but will it help my application for schools to know I'm doing one since my degrees are old?

- Volunteering - please read what I wrote below and give advice!

1st BS respected state school cGPA 3.91 sGPA 4.0
2nd BS Nursing Ivy League GPA 4.11
MS Advanced Practice state school GPA 3.9
Additional graduate courses GPA 4.0 (including biostatistics, graduate nursing pathophys and social science, some from Ivy League)
Almost all credits over 20 years old except for 2 recent graduate nursing courses

MCAT practice without studying at all 505 - pretty equal breakdown (remember my prereqs are over 20 years old so I know I can do better with a refresher of basic sciences)
MCAT scheduled late July 2022

Residence NY

Ethnicity/Race: Euro-American/Non-Hispanic
Identify as genderfluid and queer

Clinical Experience:
Worked in advanced practice 20 years (mostly FT, occasionally PT related to raising a family) including running own practice.
Recent per diem nursing work since pandemic.
No volunteer clinical experience unless seeing patients pro-bono counts - many of my patients lost insurance and couldn't pay due to pandemic, I continued to see them to provide continuity of care. (Do I mention this on my application anywhere? It's not volunteer for an institution so I have no proof, just my low bank account.)

Research Experience:
Undergraduate REU fellowship a long time ago, no publication
Worked in research labs and fieldwork not related to medicine as undergrad (do I even mention this if it's not related to medicine and very long ago?)
Since 12/2021 per diem research nurse

Shadowing: NONE

Non-clinical volunteering: At my children's schools and occasional local food bank etc, but I haven't kept track.

Extra-curriculars:
Not having been a student in quite a while, I garden, hike, follow politics, read quite broadly and attend to my family.
Since Jan 2022 I am caring for an elderly relative with early dementia, which takes quite a bit of time. This will continue through the summer.
Is any of this relevant to my application?

Relevant honors/awards:
Multiple awards when graduated with Master's. Not sure I have a record of them. I can look, but is this relevant to medical schools if they are from an advanced practice degree?
Graduated summa with 1st Bachelor's. Graduated 1st in class with BS Nursing and Master's, but I don't think this is noted on the transcript.

List of Schools: (my priorities are geographic and after that, I'd love a 3 year school - only Hackensack and NYU - longshot - are on my list)
NYMC - I could still apply to their accelerated 1 year medical science master's - worth it?
Hackensack Meridian - 3 year option
Albert Einstein
Columbia (if MCAT high enough)
Icahn Mt Sinai (if MCAT high enough)
Cornell (if MCAT high enough)
NYU (if MCAT high enough, but not sure it's worth it to try here given my age and lack of publications)
Quinnipiac
Rutgers New Jersey
Rutgers Robert Wood Johnson
U of CT
U of Albany
Touro Harlem DO
Touro Middletown DO

I truly appreciate any advice you can give. Also wondering if I need to hire an advisor to help me navigate this given how much there is to do in little time.

Thank you!

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[chilly_md]

Might be best to take a 1 year career changer post-bacc to get through all the pre-reqs. You can also do this as a DIY post-bacc at a local college near you. This will enable you to obtain recent letters of recommendation. Continue taking practice full length MCATs to see if you are improving. I cannot provide a list without an official MCAT score.

You should obtain shadowing hours before applying. I would advise you to wait a cycle because of this as well as getting actual grades to show schools. They are unlikely to wait on your grades to come out in December. If you are still working, see if you can shadow physicians there or ask ones who worked at the places you were per-diem at. Aim for 50 hours across different specialties. They do not need to write a LOR. One physician LOR from someone you have recently worked with would suffice for the requirement that DO schools have. It would be good to have some non-clinical volunteering as well. Right now you have very low hours to 0. Food bank is the right idea. Other places could include homeless shelter, soup kitchen, women's shelter, working with foster youth etc.

Caring for an elderly relative is something you can talk about in your personal statement or secondary essay if it has impacted your decision to change careers. Do not put it as an activity and count hours for it. Your current list is rather limited and includes schools that do not tend to take applicants who are not from their state (Rutgers, UConn). There are options that may be further away, but still along the East Coast.

 

[redmustardseed]

Thank you @chilly_md

I may have been unclear. I have the usual prereqs: 8 credits bio with lab and further bio with lab, 8 credits gen chem with lab, 8 credits orgo with lab, 8 credits physics with lab, calc 1 & 2, undergrad and grad level calc-based biostatistics in my undergrad and I have social sciences, just not the typical 101 courses, plus plenty of English/writing courses as part of my undergrad, but all more than 20 years ago.

Do you still recommend a postbacc even though there's risk of a lower gpa? Do adcoms need to see more recent prereqs? I've read Yale requires them to be within 5 yrs, but is that true of other schools?

 

[chilly_md]

Thank you @chilly_md

I may have been unclear. I have the usual prereqs: 8 credits bio with lab and further bio with lab, 8 credits gen chem with lab, 8 credits orgo with lab, 8 credits physics with lab, calc 1 & 2, undergrad and grad level calc-based biostatistics in my undergrad and I have social sciences, just not the typical 101 courses, plus plenty of English/writing courses as part of my undergrad, but all more than 20 years ago.

Do you still recommend a postbacc even though there's risk of a lower gpa? Do adcoms need to see more recent prereqs? I've read Yale requires them to be within 5 yrs, but is that true of other schools?

I think with them being over 20 years ago, it might be a good idea to do them again. Some posters have commented before that other schools also have an expiration. You would have to go through and contact schools to determine the exact individual policy. I would recommend a postbacc as it will show you can do well in an academic environment as well as give you a chance to obtain new LORs. Then, you won’t have to worry how each school will interpret your app.

You could possibly take biochem (which is a pre-req now at many places), Genetics, Microbiology, Immunology, Epidemiology, Histology and other upper division science courses instead, but I think you have a valid reason to re-do pre-requisites compared to more recent career changers. Try to do the best you can, it’s ok if you can’t get that 4.0 again.

 

[candbgirl]

Some schools specifically say the coursework can be no more than 5 or 10 years old. You’d have to check each school to see what they say. As to 20 years old courses I would think some ADCOMS would be hesitant to consider you. They might question whether you are up to the rigors of med school. Again you need to check each school for what they will consider. Calling places that aren’t specific might be a good idea too.

 

[redmustardseed]

Thank you for all of this feedback. It's definitely different than I was thinking. Sounds like even if I did a science-based master's to prove my ability to handle rigorous science, I might be outright passed over due to old pre-reqs.

Is it unreasonable to think I can apply this cycle while taking prereqs if I include summer 2022 term?

Also, do I need absolutely every prereq repeated? For example, can I just start with orgo with lab and skip gen chem? My degree is in biology and I've been working in health care for more than 2 decades - seems ridiculous to repeat intro bio, but I'm interested in opinions.

I can see repeating genetics - that field has changed tremendously although genetic counseling is part of my clinical practice so I'm not behind the science. Sounds like I need that too?

If I call schools and ask them these questions about prereqs, how reliable are the answers the admissions office gives me?

Thank you!

 

[chilly_md]

I would not apply as you would have few grades to show to admissions when they view your application. They would at least want to see a full course load during a regular semester.

You can likely mix and match courses, especially if you are doing a DIY option. You can start with organic chemistry and use the time you would have needed for gen chem for upper division coursework. Genetics was an example of a class you could take. I did not know if you had taken it, and there are also upper level versions of that subject, so that is why I included it as option. Goro’s guide includes other coursework suggestions:

Goro's advice for pre-meds who need reinvention (updated for 2021)

EDIT: Post in WAMC forum for recommended school lists. This thread isn't for that. So you want to be a doctor, but your GPA is terrible. Is that the end? Rule #1: Take a deep breath, and stop fussing. The sky is not falling. But you are going to need to reinvent yourself. This will take...

forums.studentdoctor.net

The advice about retakes and pre-reqs is different in your case as it is typically recent graduates who need to improve their GPA who follow that guide as opposed to someone who has 20+ year old grades.

The admissions office I assume would give you the correct answer regarding their individual policy.

 

[redmustardseed]

Thx for the response. I’ll check out the link and call some schools