WAMC - Applied twice

[bobjoey042]

Disclaimer: This is a dense post, and I’m not really sure what to do from here. I'm a reapplicant from TX. I'll explain the context between both my app cycles.

I graduated in 2022 and applied in May/June (13 schools, including the 4 in TX) with a 3.7 GPA, 3.5 science, upward trend. I have good leadership/extracurriculars/volunteering (the strongest part of my apps). My essays were good, I had current dental school students/mentors look over it. Strong LORs too. I took the DAT twice to this point (18 first attempt, 20 on second but RC raised it, no scores under 17). During my gap year, I shadowed at 5 offices for about 200 hours, then eventually worked as a dental assistant (still working as one currently). I also worked as a dental lab tech for a few months. I took one upper level science class in the meantime and made an A. At the time, the biggest "red flag" on my app was lack of dental experience, which I was able to get during the 2022-2023 gap year.

I received 2 OOS interviews from private schools, both were virtual and pre-December. Looking back, I did ok but probably over-prepared and might have come across as too scripted. No interviews after that, and was just put on the waitlists for both schools. I sent 2 update letters each to both schools in the meantime. I was never officially rejected until their respective first week of classes.

In 2023, I retook the DAT for a 3rd time. I scored a 20 again but brought my TNS to a 20 as well and PAT to a 19, and no scores under 19. I rewrote my essays (still solid, along with LORs), and was able to add the new experiences from my gap year. I applied early again (a few different schools from last time and all 4 TX schools). I had 1 pre-December interview and 2 in January (all OOS private schools and in person; same 2 schools from last cycle). My interviews were for sure better than last cycle, but not sure if I was able to stand out much. Again, I was left on the waitlist for all 3 schools. I already sent them all an update letter last month. I took another upper level science class but made a B+ in it last semester.

Coming into April now, I'm just kind of lost and don't know what to do from here. I've looked into a few masters programs, but not sure what else I can do outside of maybe taking the DAT again and scoring a 21+. I had some hope last cycle I'd get off the waitlists, but I'm getting a feeling that I'll have to apply for yet another cycle. Any advice would be appreciated.

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[macsak]

Disclaimer: This is a dense post, and I’m not really sure what to do from here. I'm a reapplicant from TX. I'll explain the context between both my app cycles.

I graduated in 2022 and applied in May/June (13 schools, including the 4 in TX) with a 3.7 GPA, 3.5 science, upward trend. I have good leadership/extracurriculars/volunteering (the strongest part of my apps). My essays were good, I had current dental school students/mentors look over it. Strong LORs too. I took the DAT twice to this point (18 first attempt, 20 on second but RC raised it, no scores under 17). During my gap year, I shadowed at 5 offices for about 200 hours, then eventually worked as a dental assistant (still working as one currently). I also worked as a dental lab tech for a few months. I took one upper level science class in the meantime and made an A. At the time, the biggest "red flag" on my app was lack of dental experience, which I was able to get during the 2022-2023 gap year.

I received 2 OOS interviews from private schools, both were virtual and pre-December. Looking back, I did ok but probably over-prepared and might have come across as too scripted. No interviews after that, and was just put on the waitlists for both schools. I sent 2 update letters each to both schools in the meantime. I was never officially rejected until their respective first week of classes.

In 2023, I retook the DAT for a 3rd time. I scored a 20 again but brought my TNS to a 20 as well and PAT to a 19, and no scores under 19. I rewrote my essays (still solid, along with LORs), and was able to add the new experiences from my gap year. I applied early again (a few different schools from last time and all 4 TX schools). I had 1 pre-December interview and 2 in January (all OOS private schools and in person; same 2 schools from last cycle). My interviews were for sure better than last cycle, but not sure if I was able to stand out much. Again, I was left on the waitlist for all 3 schools. I already sent them all an update letter last month. I took another upper level science class but made a B+ in it last semester.

Coming into April now, I'm just kind of lost and don't know what to do from here. I've looked into a few masters programs, but not sure what else I can do outside of maybe taking the DAT again and scoring a 21+. I had some hope last cycle I'd get off the waitlists, but I'm getting a feeling that I'll have to apply for yet another cycle. Any advice would be appreciated.

how many schools did you apply to this cycle?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

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[bobjoey042]

how many schools did you apply to this cycle?

13 schools again - 4 TX schools (I'm a resident), 6 same from prior year (2 interviews) and 3 new ones

 

[bobjoey042]

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How to format your WAMC thread: Suggested information to include when creating a WAMC thread are as follows: Date of submission: Overall GPA: Science GPA: Bio-Chem-Physics GPA: DAT score (include AA and all sections): It is very hard for people to give you feedback without a score. State of...

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Date of submission: Applied early both cycles, within first 2 weeks of being open
Overall GPA: 3.7
Science GPA: 3.5
Bio-Chem-Physics GPA: 3.5
DAT score (include AA and all sections): 3 times - most recent/best score: 20 AA/19 PAT/20 TNS, no section under 18
State of Residence: TX

Major: Biology
Minor: Public Health
Minority? No
Reapplicant? Yes
Nontrad? No

Shadowing Experience: 1st app: 2 offices, 90 hours; 2nd app: 7 more offices (9 in total), 200 hours cumulatively
Employment: Worked as a DA for the past 1.5+ years, also a dental lab tech for 6 months
Research: 250 hours over one summer as an assistant, no publications
Other Extracurriculars: Strongest part of my app, had many extracurriculars, club involvement, leadership experience, and hobbies
Have you volunteered/shadowed/attended events at any dental schools? Went to UTSD tour through a pre-dental club
Relevant Honors or Awards: Graduated with magna cum laude honors
LOR type and strength: 1 dentist that I work with, 2 science faculty, and 1 research PI. All letters are strong
Misc Info/Things not stated elsewhere/Red Flags: Lack of dental experience between first gap year and second gap year. Was able to shadow a lot more (7 offices) in my first gap year before working as a DA.

 

[macsak]

Date of submission: Applied early both cycles, within first 2 weeks of being open
Overall GPA: 3.7
Science GPA: 3.5
Bio-Chem-Physics GPA: 3.5
DAT score (include AA and all sections): 3 times - most recent/best score: 20 AA/19 PAT/20 TNS, no section under 18
State of Residence: TX

Major: Biology
Minor: Public Health
Minority? No
Reapplicant? Yes
Nontrad? No

Shadowing Experience: 1st app: 2 offices, 90 hours; 2nd app: 7 more offices (9 in total), 200 hours cumulatively
Employment: Worked as a DA for the past 1.5+ years, also a dental lab tech for 6 months
Research: 250 hours over one summer as an assistant, no publications
Other Extracurriculars: Strongest part of my app, had many extracurriculars, club involvement, leadership experience, and hobbies
Have you volunteered/shadowed/attended events at any dental schools? Went to UTSD tour through a pre-dental club
Relevant Honors or Awards: Graduated with magna cum laude honors
LOR type and strength: 1 dentist that I work with, 2 science faculty, and 1 research PI. All letters are strong
Misc Info/Things not stated elsewhere/Red Flags: Lack of dental experience between first gap year and second gap year. Was able to shadow a lot more (7 offices) in my first gap year before working as a DA.

DAT score (include AA and all sections)
and all attempts

 

[bobjoey042]

DAT score (include AA and all sections)
and all attempts

Attempt 1: 18 AA, 17 Bio, 17 GC, 18 Orgo (17 TNS), 17 PAT, 20 RC, 19 QR
Attempt 2: 20 AA, 19 Bio, 18 GC, 19 Orgo (19 TNS), 17 PAT, 24 RC, 20 QR (applied my first cycle with these 2 scores)
Attempt 3: 20 AA, 19 Bio, 20 GC, 21 Orgo (20 TNS), 19 PAT, 20 RC, 20 QR (applied my second cycle with this score)

 

[macsak]

Attempt 1: 18 AA, 17 Bio, 17 GC, 18 Orgo (17 TNS), 17 PAT, 20 RC, 19 QR
Attempt 2: 20 AA, 19 Bio, 18 GC, 19 Orgo (19 TNS), 17 PAT, 24 RC, 20 QR
Attempt 3: 20 AA, 19 Bio, 20 GC, 21 Orgo (20 TNS), 19 PAT, 20 RC, 20 QR

hmm
those are not bad scores
what were your school lists (both attempts)?

 

[macsak]

hmm
those are not bad scores
what were your school lists (both attempts)?

and where did you get interviews...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Again, I was left on the waitlist for all 3 schools.

Dealing with the present day, where are the waitlists?

 

[bobjoey042]

Dealing with the present day, where are the waitlists?

Last year, interviewed pre-December at ASDOH and MW-IL, both virtual. Again, was never taken off any waitlists/rejected until both schools started their classes.

This year, interviewed pre-December at ASDOH again, then LECOM and MW-IL in January, all in person

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Last year, interviewed pre-December at ASDOH and MW-IL, both virtual. Again, was never taken off any waitlists/rejected until both schools started their classes.

This year, interviewed pre-December at ASDOH again, then LECOM and MW-IL in January, all in person

Did you get any feedback before applying for this cycle? I agree more clinical experience helped you. The DAT improved a bit. What do you think is missing?

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Other Extracurriculars: Strongest part of my app, had many extracurriculars, club involvement, leadership experience, and hobbies

Tell us more about this, including hours. Apparently this might not be strong enough.

Fine manual dexterity?

 

[bobjoey042]

Did you get any feedback before applying for this cycle? I agree more clinical experience helped you. The DAT improved a bit. What do you think is missing?

Last year, I did not reach out to schools about getting feedback. After getting waitlisted by both schools, I sent 1 update letter, then sent another email later in the cycle asking about my application status and reiterating my interest in attending their programs still. I met with one Texas director last year (before applying this past cycle), and it was vague but essentially agreed that lack of dental experience and not superb DAT was why I didn't get many interviews.

For this cycle, I sent each school update letters after getting waitlisted. I reached out again a few weeks ago to ask about my current waitlist status and gauge if they offer application feedback sessions. ASDOH told me they do not offer application feedback sessions, and also informed me that their waitlist is slow-going so it would be unlikely for me to get accepted this cycle from them. MW IL said they do not release info about the current position on the waitlist. This cycle, I plan to meet with another Texas director to hopefully get a more clear-cut answer to what went wrong in this cycle.

For my extracurriculars, I was very active in a pre-health club, went to many volunteering events and held numerous officer roles for 2-3 years. I was also in 2 pre-dental clubs and stayed active in those (no leadership position). I also held officer roles for my church youth group. I volunteered for about 120 hours non-clinically and went to 3 Mission of Mercy events, and volunteered at 1 other dental service event. For manual dexterity, I've been playing piano and basketball for over a decade. I also gained some manual dexterity skills in my research lab. I highlighted both those things on my app as well.

From my first time applying, I don't think my interviews were bad, but that I over-prepared and might have come across as too scripted. Both my interviews more so focused on ethics/personality/what would you do in this scenario. It felt very much like question, answer, next. I'm assuming I performed well enough to get invites from both schools again (and LECOM) for the second cycle. I definitely performed better in my interviews for the second cycle, but I'm not sure how much I was able to necessarily stand out. They were more conversational based and talked more about my app and experiences. ASDOH and MW were smooth, LECOM was different since it was a group interview with 5 other candidates.

In terms of what's missing, I'm not too sure. I can't see anything glaring that's preventing me from getting more interview invites. At this point, I think the only 2 things I can control are applying for master's programs to raise my GPA/sGPA and retaking the DAT to score a 21+ to stand out more. I feel like I can't really do anything else that I've already done.

 

[macsak]

Last year, interviewed pre-December at ASDOH and MW-IL, both virtual. Again, was never taken off any waitlists/rejected until both schools started their classes.

This year, interviewed pre-December at ASDOH again, then LECOM and MW-IL in January, all in person

what were your full school lists (both years)?

 

[macsak]

Last year, I did not reach out to schools about getting feedback. After getting waitlisted by both schools, I sent 1 update letter, then sent another email later in the cycle asking about my application status and reiterating my interest in attending their programs still. I met with one Texas director last year (before applying this past cycle), and it was vague but essentially agreed that lack of dental experience and not superb DAT was why I didn't get many interviews.

For this cycle, I sent each school update letters after getting waitlisted. I reached out again a few weeks ago to ask about my current waitlist status and gauge if they offer application feedback sessions. ASDOH told me they do not offer application feedback sessions, and also informed me that their waitlist is slow-going so it would be unlikely for me to get accepted this cycle from them. MW IL said they do not release info about the current position on the waitlist. This cycle, I plan to meet with another Texas director to hopefully get a more clear-cut answer to what went wrong in this cycle.

For my extracurriculars, I was very active in a pre-health club, went to many volunteering events and held numerous officer roles for 2-3 years. I was also in 2 pre-dental clubs and stayed active in those (no leadership position). I also held officer roles for my church youth group. I volunteered for about 120 hours non-clinically and went to 3 Mission of Mercy events, and volunteered at 1 other dental service event. For manual dexterity, I've been playing piano and basketball for over a decade. I also gained some manual dexterity skills in my research lab. I highlighted both those things on my app as well.

From my first time applying, I don't think my interviews were bad, but that I over-prepared and might have come across as too scripted. Both my interviews more so focused on ethics/personality/what would you do in this scenario. It felt very much like question, answer, next. I'm assuming I performed well enough to get invites from both schools again (and LECOM) for the second cycle. I definitely performed better in my interviews for the second cycle, but I'm not sure how much I was able to necessarily stand out. They were more conversational based and talked more about my app and experiences. ASDOH and MW were smooth, LECOM was different since it was a group interview with 5 other candidates.

In terms of what's missing, I'm not too sure. I can't see anything glaring that's preventing me from getting more interview invites. At this point, I think the only 2 things I can control are applying for master's programs to raise my GPA/sGPA and retaking the DAT to score a 21+ to stand out more. I feel like I can't really do anything else that I've already done.

what did LECOM say?

 

[bobjoey042]

what were your full school lists (both years)?

Last year - 4 TX schools, ASDOH, MW-IL, LECOM, Tufts, BU, Temple, Maryland, Oklahoma, LSU
This year - 4 TX schools, ASDOH, MW-IL, LECOM, Tufts, BU, Temple, Maryland, Louisville, MW-AZ

LECOM I just emailed again today. Also, I received Maryland's secondary application both last cycle and this cycle but never interviewed there. I was rejected from them recently and asked if they provide application feedback, but they do not

 

[macsak]

Last year - 4 TX schools, ASDOH, MW-IL, LECOM, Tufts, BU, Temple, Maryland, Oklahoma, LSU
This year - 4 TX schools, ASDOH, MW-IL, LECOM, Tufts, BU, Temple, Maryland, Louisville, MW-AZ

LECOM I just emailed again today. Also, I received Maryland's secondary application both last cycle and this cycle but never interviewed there. I was rejected from them recently and asked if they provide application feedback, but they do not

ok thanks
the DAT scores are low for the texas schools
kinda surprised you got maryland secondary twice
the first cycle oklahoma and lsu were kind of donations
you should have applied to a ton more schools the first time, concentrating on midwest schools (public and private)
the second cycle you prob should have had more schools too
getting repeat interviews mean your first time wasn't terrible, but i cannot help but thinking that if you had 5 interviews and no acceptances, they still need work

if you take the DAT again, you need to petition, and you need to have enough time to prepare and get a good score (and especially not get lower), which is going to delay your application
my advice would be to have a bigger and better school list, apply early, and work on your communications skills...

 

[bobjoey042]

ok thanks
the DAT scores are low for the texas schools
kinda surprised you got maryland secondary twice
the first cycle oklahoma and lsu were kind of donations
you should have applied to a ton more schools the first time, concentrating on midwest schools (public and private)
the second cycle you prob should have had more schools too
getting repeat interviews mean your first time wasn't terrible, but i cannot help but thinking that if you had 5 interviews and no acceptances, they still need work

if you take the DAT again, you need to petition, and you need to have enough time to prepare and get a good score (and especially not get lower), which is going to delay your application
my advice would be to have a bigger and better school list, apply early, and work on your communications skills...

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Yes I know for TX, my DAT and GPA are lower than average.
Not sure what to make of Maryland. I applied to Oklahoma and LSU because they were near TX, but I realize that wasn't the smartest choice.
How many schools would you recommend I apply to then? I initially thought 13 was a good number. Any recommendations on schools from this cycle to remove?
I agree with your premise about my interviews. I know I did a lot better than last year. Not really sure what else to do besides practice more I guess.
Do you think its worth retaking the DAT given my stats/app/experiences? I was already preparing for the scenario where I reapply. I have most of my app stuff ready to go and would apply early into submissions being open. I am considering to retake it in July (3ish months) if I go about that route.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

For my extracurriculars, I was very active in a pre-health club, went to many volunteering events and held numerous officer roles for 2-3 years. I was also in 2 pre-dental clubs and stayed active in those (no leadership position). I also held officer roles for my church youth group. I volunteered for about 120 hours non-clinically and went to 3 Mission of Mercy events, and volunteered at 1 other dental service event. For manual dexterity, I've been playing piano and basketball for over a decade. I also gained some manual dexterity skills in my research lab. I highlighted both those things on my app as well.

What did you do with TxMoM? Along with 200 hours of dental clinic experience, it's good. You probably need much more if you have been taking any gap years. You graduated in 2022, so after 2 gap years, what have you been doing? I expect some activities with a couple thousand hours (employment, research???). What am I missing? (You said DA for 1.5 years... but what do you do?)

You are missing other community service activities (100 hours minimum) that are not health-related or adjacent. You have other officer roles with your church group and your prehealth clubs, but you don't mention anything about community service in the form of food pantries, shelter volunteering, transportation services, job/tax preparation, or housing rehabilitation. After two gap years, the absence signals you aren't really person-centered unless it's your job to be service-oriented. That's not attractive to dental schools.

You say you sound rehearsed, but after two application cycles, you shouldn't have this problem. If you sounded over-prepared, that would be your fault after at least one cycle of experience. The opposite of being "rehearsed" is being "sincere" or "authentic." After three cycles, if you can't connect with your interviewers, you have more of an issue than you think. If you had "red flags," you would have been rejected outright, so that's in your favor. But we point out 5 WL with no As after 2 years means you have issues with interviewing that might not be simply "rehearsed answers."

Furthermore, you're cooked/baked after 3 DATs. The scores show marginal improvement and plateaued. Schools start moving away from applicants who have more than 3 DATs. You need to know if the Texas schools will start ignoring you because you haven't improved enough for an offer after 3 tries.

I don't know how frequently you took these exams, but the scores stay valid for 3 years, and I don't suspect you took the 3 exams over 7 years. This is a problem with your Texas schools, which ideally want higher scores, but that's not the only thing they want. The feedback you received from them is interesting. Maybe you need a LOT more clinical hours, but I suspect you need more compelling community service that shows you understand the challenges marginalized communities in Texas who need quality dental care have with other aspects of their lives.

Basketball is not fine manual dexterity. Piano is common among predental applicants (but don't fret about that).

I am missing a sense of what your purpose is as a dentist. Mission fit seals the deal to an offer, and it appears you haven't been able to do that.

Mission Fit: Key to Your Success - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

Schools outside of Texas are wary of Texas applicants because the very strong ones will likely stay in-state if they get an offer from an in-state program. If you don't have those metrics, non-Texas schools will wonder if you are sincere about moving out of Texas to attend a more expensive school that isn't the awesome state of Texas. Yes, Oklahoma and LSU are heavily in-state biased, and you need to convince them that you can work with the patients that they serve. Frankly, so will the other schools, though LECOM and Arizona SDOH have huge classes (I think).

 

[macsak]

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Yes I know for TX, my DAT and GPA are lower than average.
Not sure what to make of Maryland. I applied to Oklahoma and LSU because they were near TX, but I realize that wasn't the smartest choice.
How many schools would you recommend I apply to then? I initially thought 13 was a good number. Any recommendations on schools from this cycle to remove?
I agree with your premise about my interviews. I know I did a lot better than last year. Not really sure what else to do besides practice more I guess.
Do you think its worth retaking the DAT given my stats/app/experiences? I was already preparing for the scenario where I reapply. I have most of my app stuff ready to go and would apply early into submissions being open. I am considering to retake it in July (3ish months) if I go about that route.

think about it
you didn't apply to 13, you only applied to nine...
you need to do your own research on schools, but i would concentrate on the middle of the country and research which schools are more likely to take TX oos students...

 

[macsak]

I agree with pretty much everything you said.

Yes I know for TX, my DAT and GPA are lower than average.
Not sure what to make of Maryland. I applied to Oklahoma and LSU because they were near TX, but I realize that wasn't the smartest choice.
How many schools would you recommend I apply to then? I initially thought 13 was a good number. Any recommendations on schools from this cycle to remove?
I agree with your premise about my interviews. I know I did a lot better than last year. Not really sure what else to do besides practice more I guess.
Do you think its worth retaking the DAT given my stats/app/experiences? I was already preparing for the scenario where I reapply. I have most of my app stuff ready to go and would apply early into submissions being open. I am considering to retake it in July (3ish months) if I go about that route.

i am not about to tell you to retake or not
i gave you my input on it in the previous post
you need to make your own decision...

 

[bobjoey042]

What did you do with TxMoM? Along with 200 hours of dental clinic experience, it's good. You probably need much more if you have been taking any gap years. You graduated in 2022, so after 2 gap years, what have you been doing? I expect some activities with a couple thousand hours (employment, research???). What am I missing? (You said DA for 1.5 years... but what do you do?)

You are missing other community service activities (100 hours minimum) that are not health-related or adjacent. You have other officer roles with your church group and your prehealth clubs, but you don't mention anything about community service in the form of food pantries, shelter volunteering, transportation services, job/tax preparation, or housing rehabilitation. After two gap years, the absence signals you aren't really person-centered unless it's your job to be service-oriented. That's not attractive to dental schools.

You say you sound rehearsed, but after two application cycles, you shouldn't have this problem. If you sounded over-prepared, that would be your fault after at least one cycle of experience. The opposite of being "rehearsed" is being "sincere" or "authentic." After three cycles, if you can't connect with your interviewers, you have more of an issue than you think. If you had "red flags," you would have been rejected outright, so that's in your favor. But we point out 5 WL with no As after 2 years means you have issues with interviewing that might not be simply "rehearsed answers."

Furthermore, you're cooked/baked after 3 DATs. The scores show marginal improvement and plateaued. Schools start moving away from applicants who have more than 3 DATs. You need to know if the Texas schools will start ignoring you because you haven't improved enough for an offer after 3 tries.

I don't know how frequently you took these exams, but the scores stay valid for 3 years, and I don't suspect you took the 3 exams over 7 years. This is a problem with your Texas schools, which ideally want higher scores, but that's not the only thing they want. The feedback you received from them is interesting. Maybe you need a LOT more clinical hours, but I suspect you need more compelling community service that shows you understand the challenges marginalized communities in Texas who need quality dental care have with other aspects of their lives.

Basketball is not fine manual dexterity. Piano is common among predental applicants (but don't fret about that).

I am missing a sense of what your purpose is as a dentist. Mission fit seals the deal to an offer, and it appears you haven't been able to do that.

Mission Fit: Key to Your Success - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

Schools outside of Texas are wary of Texas applicants because the very strong ones will likely stay in-state if they get an offer from an in-state program. If you don't have those metrics, non-Texas schools will wonder if you are sincere about moving out of Texas to attend a more expensive school that isn't the awesome state of Texas. Yes, Oklahoma and LSU are heavily in-state biased, and you need to convince them that you can work with the patients that they serve. Frankly, so will the other schools, though LECOM and Arizona SDOH have huge classes (I think).

TMOMs- I mainly worked in sterilization or escorting patients. I wasn't able to assist since those positions got filled quickly. If I do need to reapply, I plan to register as an assistant for one of the future TMOMS in my gap year. Employment wise, I tutored on the side for a while. When I was a dental lab tech, I mainly did contact work (adjusting crowns for occlusion) and pouring up stone for models. I landed the DA job in November 2022 but they were only offering part-time, so I was tutoring and doing the lab job for a little longer before studying for my DAT again. I began working part time at another dental office from July 2023. I currently work part time at those 2 offices so it's considered full-time now. I don't have the exact number of hours calculated but I'd say its probably around 1500 give or take. In terms of my duties, I sterilize rooms/instruments between procedures, set up trays, assist chair-side, take x-rays, manage some front desk duties, etc. I'm the floater DA at both offices, we have a lead DA as well. What I do at work is all mentioned on my app. When I met with the TX director last year, they said my extracurriculars/leadership and all were strong.

I should have more explicitly addressed it but when I said I had 120 hours of volunteering non-clinically, I was referring to the things you mentioned, such as food banks and elderly shelters. I did a majority of those while in undergrad, and continue to volunteer in a few of them with my church youth group, although it's not as frequent anymore. I still try to attend 1-2 events per year, which is normally about how many events we do.

I guess my interviewing skills needs more work than I initially took consideration for. I had a few mock interviews with some of the dental school students who were my mentors, and I seemed fine then. Maybe I didn't perform as well come my interview. I am not trying to justify it and I take accountability for it, I will need to be better on that.

Would you say it's not even worth considering retaking the DAT at this point? I talked to someone on TX admissions recently and they said they only view it as the most recent attempt, not necessarily 4 attempts. I know obviously the amount of times matters, and that if I were to retake it, I need to score significantly higher than I have in the past. Also, they said that my sGPA and DAT were lower than their matriculated (as stated above) which is why I considered retaking the DAT and the masters programs.

I took my first attempt in 2021 (did not apply that cycle), second in 2022 (took prior to applying), and third in 2023 (took in June but already applied to schools). In my personal statement, I did talk about how TMOMs inspired me because of the lack of dental necessities these communities have, and elaborated how I want to serve in such initiatives in the future. But perhaps I need to make that connection a step further like you mentioned.

For my personal statement this cycle, I tried to reorganize it a bit. My intro is now more so focusing on why dentistry - from volunteering events that got me interested in serving those in need, making the connect with dentistry, and then elaborating in my body paragraphs about certain experiences. I hope that this new approach tries to more directly convey to an adcom why I want to become a dentist.

I did not apply to Oklahoma and LSU this past cycle, nor will I if I need to reapply. Side note, ASDOH is only about 78 students I think and LECOM is 125.

I know this is something I will need to convey more to an adcom more than over an internet post, but dentistry is what I want to do (I hope it did not come across as if I was applying insincerely or not genuinely). I am very passionate about this profession. I specifically conveyed in 2 of my interviews that not being admitted in my first cycle was difficult, but that it motivates me even more to become a dentist, and that I will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. It's why I'm reaching out here, because I am willing to take whatever steps are necessary to help me become a dentist.

 

[bobjoey042]

think about it
you didn't apply to 13, you only applied to nine...
you need to do your own research on schools, but i would concentrate on the middle of the country and research which schools are more likely to take TX oos students...

Understood. Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it!

 

[macsak]

Understood. Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it!

i guess i should say that if you want to be competitive at the TX schools, you will likely need to retake...

 

[macsak]

i guess i should say that if you want to be competitive at the TX schools, you will likely need to retake...

and either way, i don't think a masters is the way to go for you...

 

[bobjoey042]

i guess i should say that if you want to be competitive at the TX schools, you will likely need to retake...

Thanks for the clarification. I figured this was the case.

Also about the masters, I only considered it because the TX director told me my sGPA was low for TX, along with a not amazing DAT. As I mentioned earlier, given where I'm at now, I think a masters and DAT retake are the only ways I can improve my app. Improving my interview skills will be the next step

 

[macsak]

Thanks for the clarification. I figured this was the case.

Also about the masters, I only considered it because the TX director told me my sGPA was low for TX, along with a not amazing DAT. As I mentioned earlier, given where I'm at now, I think a masters and DAT retake are the only ways I can improve my app. Improving my interview skills will be the next step

no, your app can be easily improved by having a better school list
retake just depends if you want to get into any school or a TX school
masters should not be a consideration either way
most schools will wait until you get a semester or so of grades in a masters before they even consider you...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

TMOMs- I mainly worked in sterilization or escorting patients. I wasn't able to assist since those positions got filled quickly. If I do need to reapply, I plan to register as an assistant for one of the future TMOMS in my gap year. Employment wise, I tutored on the side for a while. When I was a dental lab tech, I mainly did contact work (adjusting crowns for occlusion) and pouring up stone for models. I landed the DA job in November 2022 but they were only offering part-time, so I was tutoring and doing the lab job for a little longer before studying for my DAT again. I began working part time at another dental office from July 2023. I currently work part time at those 2 offices so it's considered full-time now. I don't have the exact number of hours calculated but I'd say its probably around 1500 give or take. In terms of my duties, I sterilize rooms/instruments between procedures, set up trays, assist chair-side, take x-rays, manage some front desk duties, etc. I'm the floater DA at both offices, we have a lead DA as well. What I do at work is all mentioned on my app. When I met with the TX director last year, they said my extracurriculars/leadership and all were strong.

TxMOM: How many hours were you doing this? Usually each session is 4-6 hours per day?

1500 hours. You need to calcuate the hours and be honest with us. You can't expect us to have psychic powers to understand how an admissions committee is waitlisting you. You will be entering a third cycle if you don't get off a waitlist, and your status as a reapplicant will be under scrutiny. I am not sure if there is such as thing as a "last chance," but many admissions committees will not look at you if you clearly don't improve.

Which Texas director did you meet with? Why didn't you get into that school? If they said you needed a better DAT (if they said 22+), you didn't do it. Twice. Did the Texas director tell you to do a DIY postbac? Any suggested upper-level biomedical science courses? I don't have your transcript, so I don't know if you have already taken any of the following with A's:

• Microbiology (often with lab)
• Human physiology or Human Anatomy (not Anatomy & Physiology, which is often for allied health students)
• Immunology
• Histology
• Neurobiology
• Biochemistry
• Advanced cell biology (not "intro" cell biology which is usually an intro biology course)

If you are not honest with yourself in your self-assessment, you won't make it through dental school where your own reputation as a strong student relies on your ability to evaluate yourself accurately and make appropriate adjustments. We do not have your AADSAS application nor your interview responses or Casper results (if applicable... not so much for Texas dental schools, I know, but you could have had a Recorded Video Interview/Kira Talent).

I should have more explicitly addressed it but when I said I had 120 hours of volunteering non-clinically, I was referring to the things you mentioned, such as food banks and elderly shelters. I did a majority of those while in undergrad, and continue to volunteer in a few of them with my church youth group, although it's not as frequent anymore. I still try to attend 1-2 events per year, which is normally about how many events we do.

I guess my interviewing skills needs more work than I initially took consideration for. I had a few mock interviews with some of the dental school students who were my mentors, and I seemed fine then. Maybe I didn't perform as well come my interview. I am not trying to justify it and I take accountability for it, I will need to be better on that.

I cannot answer for the people you had mock interviews with, but a real interview involves a rubric. You are compared against others who have similar preparation and motivation to be a dentist. They should have told you if you came of over-prepared; you should be over that now.

I'm working on an article about interviewing in the post-pandemic world according to the most recent interview survey we conducted.

Would you say it's not even worth considering retaking the DAT at this point? I talked to someone on TX admissions recently and they said they only view it as the most recent attempt, not necessarily 4 attempts. I know obviously the amount of times matters, and that if I were to retake it, I need to score significantly higher than I have in the past. Also, they said that my sGPA and DAT were lower than their matriculated (as stated above) which is why I considered retaking the DAT and the masters programs.

I don't think so. If you think you can clearly score 22+, go for it. The problem is that we already have a trend line with 3 tests within 3-4 years. Asking permission for additional attempts is pro forma (you shouldn't have a problem... it's money to the ADA after all).

I have dealt with my share of faculty members who believe the number of attempts matters, especially if there does not seem to be significant change in one's situation between attempts. They figure if you can't "pass" the DAT to standard within 3 times, you won't be able to pass the INBDE where you realistically have 2 or 3 attempts to pass.

You have the academic chops to score well; a 3.5 BCP GPA does NOT warrant a Master's degree. That's just throwing away a lot of money, especially if you have been doing well with upper-level biology courses at the end of your undergrad. You can if you want to, and that might be helpful to show faculty members you can take exams and pass them.

I took my first attempt in 2021 (did not apply that cycle), second in 2022 (took prior to applying), and third in 2023 (took in June but already applied to schools). In my personal statement, I did talk about how TMOMs inspired me because of the lack of dental necessities these communities have, and elaborated how I want to serve in such initiatives in the future. But perhaps I need to make that connection a step further like you mentioned.

Did you change your PS each time you applied? How did you connect an improvement to your application to the rest of your PS? How do you connect to your purpose as a future dentist?

For my personal statement this cycle, I tried to reorganize it a bit. My intro is now more so focusing on why dentistry - from volunteering events that got me interested in serving those in need, making the connect with dentistry, and then elaborating in my body paragraphs about certain experiences. I hope that this new approach tries to more directly convey to an adcom why I want to become a dentist.

Good luck! Get many people to give you specific feedback on the essay (old list, new list pending). You need many people to not butter you up saying "it's a great application essay." You are down three runs with the bases loaded and 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th.

You already know what schools have asked you in interviews and essays, so you should already have an approach to boost your competencies throughout your application and connect it to your purpose and mission fit. I need to know you would be a great addition to our student community and be engaged with us, our preceptors, and our patients.

I don't know about the strength of your letters of evaluation. You need champions and mentors to help you write even better statements of support. That means better letters. Don't take anything for granted.

I did not apply to Oklahoma and LSU this past cycle, nor will I if I need to reapply. Side note, ASDOH is only about 78 students I think and LECOM is 125.

How much networking have you done with schools outside of Texas?

I know this is something I will need to convey more to an adcom more than over an internet post, but dentistry is what I want to do (I hope it did not come across as if I was applying insincerely or not genuinely). I am very passionate about this profession. I specifically conveyed in 2 of my interviews that not being admitted in my first cycle was difficult, but that it motivates me even more to become a dentist, and that I will do whatever it takes to achieve that goal. It's why I'm reaching out here, because I am willing to take whatever steps are necessary to help me become a dentist.

What was the answer to your Plan B question, which most of my faculty like to ask? What if you couldn't make it into dentistry?

I say this because there are plenty of dentists who have to give up practicing due to physical disability or financial challenges.

 

[bobjoey042]

TxMOM: How many hours were you doing this? Usually each session is 4-6 hours per day?

1500 hours. You need to calcuate the hours and be honest with us. You can't expect us to have psychic powers to understand how an admissions committee is waitlisting you. You will be entering a third cycle if you don't get off a waitlist, and your status as a reapplicant will be under scrutiny. I am not sure if there is such as thing as a "last chance," but many admissions committees will not look at you if you clearly don't improve.

Which Texas director did you meet with? Why didn't you get into that school? If they said you needed a better DAT (if they said 22+), you didn't do it. Twice. Did the Texas director tell you to do a DIY postbac? Any suggested upper-level biomedical science courses? I don't have your transcript, so I don't know if you have already taken any of the following with A's:

• Microbiology (often with lab)
• Human physiology or Human Anatomy (not Anatomy & Physiology, which is often for allied health students)
• Immunology
• Histology
• Neurobiology
• Biochemistry
• Advanced cell biology (not "intro" cell biology which is usually an intro biology course)

If you are not honest with yourself in your self-assessment, you won't make it through dental school where your own reputation as a strong student relies on your ability to evaluate yourself accurately and make appropriate adjustments. We do not have your AADSAS application nor your interview responses or Casper results (if applicable... not so much for Texas dental schools, I know, but you could have had a Recorded Video Interview/Kira Talent).



I cannot answer for the people you had mock interviews with, but a real interview involves a rubric. You are compared against others who have similar preparation and motivation to be a dentist. They should have told you if you came of over-prepared; you should be over that now.

I'm working on an article about interviewing in the post-pandemic world according to the most recent interview survey we conducted.



I don't think so. If you think you can clearly score 22+, go for it. The problem is that we already have a trend line with 3 tests within 3-4 years. Asking permission for additional attempts is pro forma (you shouldn't have a problem... it's money to the ADA after all).

I have dealt with my share of faculty members who believe the number of attempts matters, especially if there does not seem to be significant change in one's situation between attempts. They figure if you can't "pass" the DAT to standard within 3 times, you won't be able to pass the INBDE where you realistically have 2 or 3 attempts to pass.

You have the academic chops to score well; a 3.5 BCP GPA does NOT warrant a Master's degree. That's just throwing away a lot of money, especially if you have been doing well with upper-level biology courses at the end of your undergrad. You can if you want to, and that might be helpful to show faculty members you can take exams and pass them.


Did you change your PS each time you applied? How did you connect an improvement to your application to the rest of your PS? How do you connect to your purpose as a future dentist?


Good luck! Get many people to give you specific feedback on the essay (old list, new list pending). You need many people to not butter you up saying "it's a great application essay." You are down three runs with the bases loaded and 2 outs in the bottom of the 9th.

You already know what schools have asked you in interviews and essays, so you should already have an approach to boost your competencies throughout your application and connect it to your purpose and mission fit. I need to know you would be a great addition to our student community and be engaged with us, our preceptors, and our patients.

I don't know about the strength of your letters of evaluation. You need champions and mentors to help you write even better statements of support. That means better letters. Don't take anything for granted.


How much networking have you done with schools outside of Texas?


What was the answer to your Plan B question, which most of my faculty like to ask? What if you couldn't make it into dentistry?

I say this because there are plenty of dentists who have to give up practicing due to physical disability or financial challenges.

TMOMs - 3 total events - 12 hours each at 2 of them, 8 hours at 1 event (32 hours total)

I just calculated my work hours at both offices cumulatively and the exact number is 1300 hours.

About the postbac, I had to take Anatomy for ASDOH so that was 1 course in my first gap year. I still wanted to take coursework to stay involved, so I enrolled in Neuroscience last semester. I've already taken Microbio, Human Phys, Biochem, and Cell Bio in undergrad. I would consider taking immunology or histology if I don't go through with the masters route.

I did have to take Casper for Temple and Louisville I believe, and I scored in the 4th quartile. I had KIRA for ASDOH, but info was never released about that in either cycle.

Interview preparation wise, it's looking more likely that I did well during my mock interviews, but did not hold up to the actual interviews. There was never a rubric with my mock interviews, but they still asked common interview questions or questions found on SDN. I know I did better than last cycle, but you're correct that something hasn't gone right for me to have had 5 interviews and all waitlists to this point.

About the DAT, I understand everything you said about the trends and how schools/faculty view it. It's easier said than done for me to say I am confident in scoring a 22+. I have more to look into before finalzing that decision.

With the masters program, again going off what the TX director said about my sGPA and DAT, I initially thought that doing a masters would be the best use of my time. Given that I accumulated a lot of dental experience from my first 2 gap years, I thought that doing a masters offers something new to my application.

I did somewhat change my essays each time. When I met with one of the TX directors last year, they mentioned that I can still talk about the same experiences in my essays but would just need to reword it. For my first cycle, I talked about experiences in shadowing, first time assisting chair-side, and then TMOMs. Second cycle, I tried to be a little more unique and connect my piano background to dentistry. For this cycle, as I mentioned earlier, I am more so focusing it to why dentistry. The experiences are still relatively the same, but worded differently and again are more focused to why it inspires me/why I want to become a dentist (instead of just regurgitating the experience itself). None of my essays from any of the cycles will be direct cut and paste. I will definitely reach out to the others in the linked thread you sent. I would say that the people reviewing my essays (and apps/mock interviews) give me honest and unbiased critiques. Most are either currently in TX dental schools or recently graduated.

I know for a fact that my letters are strong. Obviously I haven't read them, but I've had personal connections with 3 of them (the dentist I work for, my research lab PI, and 1 science faculty). I trust that the letters are not holding me back, but I can reach out to my letter writers to see if the letters can somehow become stronger. The other science faculty is a strong letter but don't have as strong of a personal connection as I do with the others. I needed them because most schools require 2 science professor LORs.

Outside of TX, I unfortunately do not have much connections to any of the schools. ASDOH I know someone who recently graduated and was an initial factor of me considering to apply to their program. MW - IL I have family/am familiar with the Chicago area but I don't have any connection there. Nobody in my family is a dentist either.

I have never been asked about Plan B directly in one of these scenarios. If I had to change paths from dentistry altogether, I would most likely either resort to something tutoring or piano related. I'm a content creator for my piano work so I could gear a career towards creating videos over piano covers full time. I also enjoy tutoring, as it is something I currently do.

 

[macsak]

TMOMs - 3 total events - 12 hours each at 2 of them, 8 hours at 1 event (32 hours total)

I just calculated my work hours at both offices cumulatively and the exact number is 1300 hours.

About the postbac, I had to take Anatomy for ASDOH so that was 1 course in my first gap year. I still wanted to take coursework to stay involved, so I enrolled in Neuroscience last semester. I've already taken Microbio, Human Phys, Biochem, and Cell Bio in undergrad. I would consider taking immunology or histology if I don't go through with the masters route.

I did have to take Casper for Temple and Louisville I believe, and I scored in the 4th quartile. I had KIRA for ASDOH, but info was never released about that in either cycle.

Interview preparation wise, it's looking more likely that I did well during my mock interviews, but did not hold up to the actual interviews. There was never a rubric with my mock interviews, but they still asked common interview questions or questions found on SDN. I know I did better than last cycle, but you're correct that something hasn't gone right for me to have had 5 interviews and all waitlists to this point.

About the DAT, I understand everything you said about the trends and how schools/faculty view it. It's easier said than done for me to say I am confident in scoring a 22+. I have more to look into before finalzing that decision.

With the masters program, again going off what the TX director said about my sGPA and DAT, I initially thought that doing a masters would be the best use of my time. Given that I accumulated a lot of dental experience from my first 2 gap years, I thought that doing a masters offers something new to my application.

I did somewhat change my essays each time. When I met with one of the TX directors last year, they mentioned that I can still talk about the same experiences in my essays but would just need to reword it. For my first cycle, I talked about experiences in shadowing, first time assisting chair-side, and then TMOMs. Second cycle, I tried to be a little more unique and connect my piano background to dentistry. For this cycle, as I mentioned earlier, I am more so focusing it to why dentistry. The experiences are still relatively the same, but worded differently and again are more focused to why it inspires me/why I want to become a dentist (instead of just regurgitating the experience itself). None of my essays from any of the cycles will be direct cut and paste. I will definitely reach out to the others in the linked thread you sent. I would say that the people reviewing my essays (and apps/mock interviews) give me honest and unbiased critiques. Most are either currently in TX dental schools or recently graduated.

I know for a fact that my letters are strong. Obviously I haven't read them, but I've had personal connections with 3 of them (the dentist I work for, my research lab PI, and 1 science faculty). I trust that the letters are not holding me back, but I can reach out to my letter writers to see if the letters can somehow become stronger. The other science faculty is a strong letter but don't have as strong of a personal connection as I do with the others. I needed them because most schools require 2 science professor LORs.

Outside of TX, I unfortunately do not have much connections to any of the schools. ASDOH I know someone who recently graduated and was an initial factor of me considering to apply to their program. MW - IL I have family/am familiar with the Chicago area but I don't have any connection there. Nobody in my family is a dentist either.

I have never been asked about Plan B directly in one of these scenarios. If I had to change paths from dentistry altogether, I would most likely either resort to something tutoring or piano related. I'm a content creator for my piano work so I could gear a career towards creating videos over piano covers full time. I also enjoy tutoring, as it is something I currently do.

have you looked into your mission fit with the d schools you applied to?
all i see is that you applied to TX schools because you live there, ASDOH because you know a recent grad, and MW-IL because you have family there
that's not mission fit...

 

[bobjoey042]

have you looked into your mission fit with the d schools you applied to?
all i see is that you applied to TX schools because you live there, ASDOH because you know a recent grad, and MW-IL because you have family there
that's not mission fit...

Backtracking a bit, I only applied to schools I could realistically see myself attending to begin with (based on mission fit, school environment) then narrowed my list based on my stats, expenses, etc. Without going into the specifics for each school I applied to, I believe I can fit to their respective mission statements. If I couldn't see myself going to XYZ dental school or fitting in with their mission, I wouldn't apply.

When asked by Mr. Smile about the networking for OOS schools, that's why I mentioned I hadn't had networking connections with those schools and said the closest interactions I have. Those are not the reasons why I applied to ASDOH or MW-IL.

In regards to mission fit with those 2 schools specifically, I did convey to ASDOH my interest in public health (I minored in it during undergrad) along with volunteering in community service events like TMOMs. There was limited time at the end of my interview, but I was able to talk about basketball/life in Arizona for a bit, so I thought there was some personal connection there with my interviewers. With MW-IL, when asked if I had any questions for them, I asked what MOMs were like there compared to Texas. From talking to them about it I (hopefully) conveyed my interest in serving such communities in the future.