Two years after leaving med school.

[W19]

Medical schools are given a "max" number of slots, but they are allowed to accept as many students above that maximum assuming that some of them hold multiple acceptances and will attend another institution or will decide not to attend for other reasons. It happened a few years ago at Texas A&M, here's the article: A&M medical school faces dilemma of too many acceptances - The Daily Texan

acceptance =/= matriculation. A school can't decide to allow x # of students to matriculate if not approved by LCME.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Stagg737]

Is the acceptance rate for medical schools ( like, total, nationally) sooo low b/c of the limited number of seats vs applicants? Or is b/c a lot of people aren't seen as fit? I always wondered that.

Both. There's a set minimum standard that medical schools have as to what students will be successful. My school finds that students that don't hit at least a 25 MCAT (old scale), scored below a 7 in a given section, or have a sGPA below a 3.25 for UG tend to struggle significantly more than students whose stats are better, so they have pretty hard cutoffs for those points. Schools know who tends to succeed in their curriculum and accept applicants accordingly. At the same time, there's a pretty significant number of applicants who would just not make it in medical school. It's why there are so many students that matriculate to Carib or other international schools and end up dropping out. On the old scale, the average score for matriculants was a 31 while the national average for test-takers was 24-25 and there was never a shortage of people score 30+.

On the other side: 60k people take the MCAT, 53k people applied, 21k matriculated. When schools 2.5 times as many applicants as spots available altogether, they can afford to set higher standards about who they accept. These overall numbers are set by higher governing bodies which respond to a lot of factors that I only have a menial understanding of (physician demand and saturation, residency positions available, healthcare funding from the gov., etc.).

acceptance =/= matriculation. A school can't decide to allow x # of students to matriculate if not approved by LCME.

"Recruit" wasn't defined well, but I'd assume the original commenter meant that they accept more students than they feel the campus/curriculum is suited for with the expectation that their attrition rate will be high. If you're really curious about policy, just ask Goro, Gyngyn, or one of the other adcoms whether a school can actually "over-recruit" knowing the whole class won't make it. I know my school is allowed to accept either 9 or 11% over the slots we're allotted (250 allotted, incoming classes are ~270-275), but I believe that's spots allotted by the school's executive board, not COCA.

 

[libertyyne]

Is the acceptance rate for medical schools ( like, total, nationally) sooo low b/c of the limited number of seats vs applicants? Or is b/c a lot of people aren't seen as fit? I always wondered that.

Seats are limited .

 

[Mad Jack]

I honestly think a large number of people in the general population could survive medical school. Some of it may be natural intelligence but hard work can get you pretty far.

Do schools are still a great alternative to md though, if your stats aren't competive enough.

Having been through most of it, no, no they couldn't. Most people don't have the drive, or the will, or the motivation for it. How far are you through the training process by the way? It's the clinical years that I think most people would lose their minds in, a lot of people could survive preclinical (though many of them wouldn't make it through the boards).

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

 

[username456789]

Having been through most of it, no, no they couldn't. Most people don't have the drive, or the will, or the motivation for it. How far are you through the training process by the way? It's the clinical years that I think most people would lose their minds in, a lot of people could survive preclinical (though many of them wouldn't make it through the boards).

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

Don't want to trigger anyone. How dare you assume that a licensed attending physician has more knowledge/experience than a college sophomore. After all, its CURRENT YEAR.

(I'm kidding. There is probably a non-ridiculous reason. Maybe.)

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[W19]

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

You status says 'non-student' while you are a 4th year med student. Don't you think it's a little bit hypocritical?

I know most of us know you here, but new posters might be unfamiliar with you...

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

You status says 'non-student' while you are a 4th year med student. Don't you think it's a little bit hypocritical?

I know most of us know you here, but new posters might be unfamiliar with you...

Last I checked, there was no status for "paranormal entity" so I'm not sure why you're calling him hypocritical.

 

[Affiche]

Whenever you post anything on a site like this you open yourself to criticism because people will always have different opinions. That's just how it goes.

For the 300k in debt people who drop out, you don't think their life is drastically different then the op?

I'm saying it's irrelevant. She never said her decision was the right one for everyone, just that she's happier and others might be too. Everyone sounds so bitter sitting here and trying to justify their mean comments with "oh well, it's to be expected" or "well you had mommy and daddy". Who gives a ****? I think her intentions were good and more importantly, I think her experience might help give perspective to current students who are really struggling with this decision. For that reason alone, her sharing her perspective should be encouraged, not belittled.

And just a side note, there's a difference between having differing opinions, offering constructive criticism, and being downright cruel. There are numerous posts in this thread that attempt to write OP off as "crazy" with "clear psychiatric issues" or belittle her for having the support, both financially and emotionally, of her parents. It's cruel and uncalled for.

 

[Affiche]

You status says 'non-student' while you are a 4th year med student. Don't you think it's a little bit hypocritical?

I know most of us know you here, but new posters might be unfamiliar with you...

Didn't he just graduate? = no longer student/not yet resident?

 

[Mad Jack]

You status says 'non-student' while you are a 4th year med student. Don't you think it's a little bit hypocritical?

I know most of us know you here, but new posters might be unfamiliar with you...

I exist outside of time and space, technically I'm not a student because I've both learned and not learned everything there is to know all at once.

...It is a bit hypocritical though

 

[grapefruit17]

Having been through most of it, no, no they couldn't. Most people don't have the drive, or the will, or the motivation for it. How far are you through the training process by the way? It's the clinical years that I think most people would lose their minds in, a lot of people could survive preclinical (though many of them wouldn't make it through the boards).

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

I finished medical school and I'm about to start my intern year of residency.

Most people have the capability, is more what I'm hinting at. But not everyone has the desire. Medical school isn't as hard as people say. It's a cozy life. Study in ac, eat what you feel like, do tests. Sure there are hard parts. But a lot of chill parts too. I worked in retail before medical school and every day in medical school I thought to myself "this sure beats retail.."

now intern year of residency, that I'm nervous about starting.

 

[dempty]

And just a side note, there's a difference between having differing opinions, offering constructive criticism, and being downright cruel. There are numerous posts in this thread that attempt to write OP off as "crazy" with "clear psychiatric issues" or...

It's sad the attempt made to justify the childish behavior towards the OP. The most simple solution is ignore it if you don't like it.

...belittle her for having the support, both financially and emotionally, of her parents. It's cruel and uncalled for.

Then, these people bash the OP in a manner that reeks of jealousy... I'm willing to bet most, if not all of these people, would take the help if offered to them.

 

[Mad Jack]

I finished medical school and I'm about to start my intern year of residency.

Most people have the capability, is more what I'm hinting at. But not everyone has the desire. Medical school isn't as hard as people say. It's a cozy life. Study in ac, eat what you feel like, do tests. Sure there are hard parts. But a lot of chill parts too. I worked in retail before medical school and every day in medical school I thought to myself "this sure beats retail.."

now intern year of residency, that I'm nervous about starting.

I can respect that. I guess I actually had a pretty sweet life before med school (60k/year for 28 hours of work, plus extra shifts as requested with the potential to make 100k+ at 50+ hours/week) that gave me a lot of flexibility with a decent income, and I did that after working retail for 5 years, so I've seen what it's like to work hard for nothing, work not so hard for a lot, and now to work hard for nothing again and it kind of gets me down sometimes. I know it's a light at the end of the tunnel sort of thing, but it's a long ****ing tunnel. Most people can't even plan what they want to eat for dinner, let alone what career they want to do 8-12 years from now, and it's easy to lose sight of what exactly the hell it is you're doing along the way.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ah, it seems the title issue only applies to the 2017 skins. Looks like I'm going classic for now.

 

[Lawpy]

Having been through most of it, no, no they couldn't. Most people don't have the drive, or the will, or the motivation for it. How far are you through the training process by the way? It's the clinical years that I think most people would lose their minds in, a lot of people could survive preclinical (though many of them wouldn't make it through the boards).

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

Ah, it seems the title issue only applies to the 2017 skins. Looks like I'm going classic for now.

Yeah I personally only use the 2013 styles. 2017 is a bit of a letdown.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah I personally only use the 2013 styles. 2017 is a bit of a letdown.

Night Mode 2017 was pretty great until recently, it's by far my favorite but I'll have to switch to 2013 when I'm not in the Lounge for functional reasons.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Do you guys know if there is a way to make the default setting 2013? Currently, I have to change it manually every time I log on.

2017 just feels awkward to me.

 

[LutGholein]

Do you guys know if there is a way to make the default setting 2013? Currently, I have to change it manually every time I log on.

2017 just feels awkward to me.

I just clicked on my name up top and on there is a subheading entitled "preferences" and I have it set to SDN blue 2013. I don't like the 2017 version either-- but once I did the change it's automatically always set to that when I login.

 

[W19]

You put the mouse cursor on your name (no need to click), then you click on preference. You select your preferences, then you scroll down down and click on 'save changes'

 

[LutGholein]

Night Mode 2017 was pretty great until recently, it's by far my favorite but I'll have to switch to 2013 when I'm not in the Lounge for functional reasons.

Can't beat SDN Blue 2013. Patrician choice.

 

[Nucleus Accumbens]

How'd we get on the topic of SDN homepage themes?! hAhA


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[bigindian4891]

Can't beat SDN Blue 2013. Patrician choice.

Old School 2008 master race

 

[Mad Jack]

Can't beat SDN Blue 2013. Patrician choice.

Pleb tier, night mode is where it's at.

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

@LutGholein @W19

Thanks!

 

[bananafish94]

Just want to throw in my two cents. I disagree with much of what the OP is saying, especially considering that the overwhelming majority of medical students have substantial loans, but the vitriol on this thread is way overblown. On another note, unless you are a physician who has examined somebody, nobody should be making assertions about psychiatric disorders (or any other condition, for that matter).

 

[jhamaican]

threads like this are why I still browse this forum. Love it 10/10

 

[Winged Scapula]

Having been through most of it, no, no they couldn't. Most people don't have the drive, or the will, or the motivation for it. How far are you through the training process by the way? It's the clinical years that I think most people would lose their minds in, a lot of people could survive preclinical (though many of them wouldn't make it through the boards).

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

I've been busy the last couple of days, but I don't know what you're talking about....I can clearly see everyone's "status". Can you not?

 

[Mad Jack]

I've been busy the last couple of days, but I don't know what you're talking about....I can clearly see everyone's "status". Can you not?

Not on 2017 Night Mode. Only shows name, badges, and verified positions.

 

[Stagg737]

I can respect that. I guess I actually had a pretty sweet life before med school (60k/year for 28 hours of work, plus extra shifts as requested with the potential to make 100k+ at 50+ hours/week) that gave me a lot of flexibility with a decent income, and I did that after working retail for 5 years, so I've seen what it's like to work hard for nothing, work not so hard for a lot, and now to work hard for nothing again and it kind of gets me down sometimes. I know it's a light at the end of the tunnel sort of thing, but it's a long ****ing tunnel. Most people can't even plan what they want to eat for dinner, let alone what career they want to do 8-12 years from now, and it's easy to lose sight of what exactly the hell it is you're doing along the way.

I think that's the big reason that people wouldn't make it. Most of the students from my class who dropped did so not because they didn't want to be physicians, they did so because they didn't want 6-10 more years of that kind of work with no or very little compensation in sight. I've literally made people's jaws drop when I tell them how many years of training I've had/still have before I'm actually making attending money.

I don't think it's really the difficulty or even the workload of med school that people are incapable of dealing with. It's the sacrifice and delayed gratification that most people couldn't handle.

 

[Nucleus Accumbens]

I think that's the big reason that people wouldn't make it. Most of the students from my class who dropped did so not because they didn't want to be physicians, they did so because they didn't want 6-10 more years of that kind of work with no or very little compensation in sight. I've literally made people's jaws drop when I tell them how many years of training I've had/still have before I'm actually making attending money.

I don't think it's really the difficulty or even the workload of med school that people are incapable of dealing with. It's the sacrifice and delayed gratification that most people couldn't handle.

Here's the thing, this entire profession relies on those who chose it to never think in the "now." Were all experts at delaying gratification. Either that or we've probably developed helluva good coping mechanisms over the years!

I read an interesting post on here from another SDN'er attending:
TL;DR- OP was ranting about being a PGY1 (ortho) in debt with no attending money while friends had houses, cars, families, vacations, etc... The retorted statement went something like this; "chances are your friends have no job security, a mediocre pay that they can expect to earn for life (with the best financial "break" being a Christmas bonus of $500). Those vacations are not paid for with non-debt financial means. 75-100k in student loans doesn't seem like much to us, but it's gonna take a lifetime to pay on 45-50k salary with a mortgage, CC bills, family expenses, etc... we on the other hand have high paying salaries (@ the top 5th percentile) with the ability to come home everyday and appreciate what we do for a living made the world a better place." See, it'll be worth it.

Trust me, that was the TL;DR version of their post haha!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Winged Scapula]

Not on 2017 Night Mode. Only shows name, badges, and verified positions.

Ah...well if you're going to choose that horrible mode then that's what you get LOL

I'll send a ticket to the helpdesk

 

[zero0]

Having been through most of it, no, no they couldn't. Most people don't have the drive, or the will, or the motivation for it. How far are you through the training process by the way? It's the clinical years that I think most people would lose their minds in, a lot of people could survive preclinical (though many of them wouldn't make it through the boards).

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

Please don't say stuff like this. I need to keep lying to myself that clinical years will be better. Otherwise, I'll just cut my losses here and now.

 

[Nucleus Accumbens]

Please don't say stuff like this. I need to keep lying to myself that clinical years will be better. Otherwise, I'll just cut my losses here and now.

I'm inclined to to say that it's dependent on your personality. Do you like social interaction over isolationism?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Stagg737]

Here's the thing, this entire profession relies on those who chose it to never think in the "now." Were all experts at delaying gratification. Either that or we've probably developed helluva good coping mechanisms over the years!

I read an interesting post on here from another SDN'er attending:
TL;DR- OP was ranting about being a PGY1 (ortho) in debt with no attending money while friends had houses, cars, families, vacations, etc... The retorted statement went something like this; "chances are your friends have no job security, a mediocre pay that they can expect to earn for life (with the best financial "break" being a Christmas bonus of $500). Those vacations are not paid for with non-debt financial means. 75-100k in student loans doesn't seem like much to us, but it's gonna take a lifetime to pay on 45-50k salary with a mortgage, CC bills, family expenses, etc... we on the other hand have high paying salaries (@ the top 5th percentile) with the ability to come home everyday and appreciate what we do for a living made the world a better place." See, it'll be worth it.

Trust me, that was the TL;DR version of their post haha!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I think I remember that post, but I think it misses a few points or doesn't give fair weight to certain factors. There's a huge difference between having a decent job (even if it is only semi-stable) at 23 than having to wait until you're 29 at the youngest, more likely in early to mid-30's before getting a paycheck you can actually do something with (because let's be real, those checks from residency aren't doing any good). Many of us are giving up an extra 7-10 prime years of our lives to do this. Will it pay off in the long run? Yes, but there are a lot of opportunities that get passed up or delayed because of med school.

Let's also remember that most people who are smart and driven enough to get accepted to medical school have the ability to find a stable career that pays well (60k+) that doesn't require an extra decade of 60+ hour weeks just to get a paycheck. Many of those careers are also regular 40-50 hour weeks. They also would likely have a fraction of the debt, as the average graduate's debt is around 37k, and someone as driven and smart as a med student should be able to understand how to keep that to a minimum. I mean, I've got friends from college who graduated with 20-30k in debt and had jobs making 90k/year straight after graduation. 5 years later they've got kids, are making 6 figures, and have houses that I won't even be looking at for another 6-9 years when I'm in my mid-30's. While I haven't minded the sacrifices I've made so far, I can completely understand why someone who wasn't enjoying med school would drop out and pursue another career.

 

[zero0]

I'm inclined to to say that it's dependent on your personality. Do you like social interaction over isolationism?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Yes, provided the people I'm surrounded by aren't insufferable tools or lack any real hint of personality.

 

[Nucleus Accumbens]

I think I remember that post, but I think it misses a few points or doesn't give fair weight to certain factors. There's a huge difference between having a decent job (even if it is only semi-stable) at 23 than having to wait until you're 29 at the youngest, more likely in early to mid-30's before getting a paycheck you can actually do something with (because let's be real, those checks from residency aren't doing any good). Many of us are giving up an extra 7-10 prime years of our lives to do this. Will it pay off in the long run? Yes, but there are a lot of opportunities that get passed up or delayed because of med school.

Let's also remember that most people who are smart and driven enough to get accepted to medical school have the ability to find a stable career that pays well (60k+) that doesn't require an extra decade of 60+ hour weeks just to get a paycheck. Many of those careers are also regular 40-50 hour weeks. They also would likely have a fraction of the debt, as the average graduate's debt is around 37k, and someone as driven and smart as a med student should be able to understand how to keep that to a minimum. I mean, I've got friends from college who graduated with 20-30k in debt and had jobs making 90k/year straight after graduation. 5 years later they've got kids, are making 6 figures, and have houses that I won't even be looking at for another 6-9 years when I'm in my mid-30's. While I haven't minded the sacrifices I've made so far, I can completely understand why someone who wasn't enjoying med school would drop out and pursue another career.

You're also banking on having those "opportunities" available to you. It's not the person that makes the situation but the situation that makes the person. Yes, were adaptable people by nature of our chosen professions; however we are a product of our environment primarily. We can't extrapolate our performance in medical school to, say Wall Street. That would be an unfair comparison, since they largely attract a different breed of human. Most of us have a very large moral compass and our ability to differentiate from right and wrong is a large part of our craft. Wall Street would require a person who can look the other way at moral, social and ethical deviations. Would a med student be able to foreclose on 100,000 people without batting an eyelash? A large probability of people would say no.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Stagg737]

You're also banking on having those "opportunities" available to you. It's not the person that makes the situation but the situation that makes the person. Yes, were adaptable people by nature of our chosen professions; however we are a product of our environment primarily. We can't extrapolate our performance in medical school to, say Wall Street. That would be an unfair comparison, since they largely attract a different breed of human. Most of us have a very large moral compass and our ability to differentiate from right and wrong is a large part of our craft. Wall Street would require a person who can look the other way at moral, social and ethical deviations. Would a med student be able to foreclose on 100,000 people without batting an eyelash? A large probability of people would say no.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Yes, but there are far more opportunities than just wall street. Accounting or financial analysis for a company are two options. I have multiple friends in both of those fields and they did very well straight out of UG, and almost all of them work for relatively small companies (less than 100 people from what I understood). Med students could certainly be nurses (which can easily pay 60k+ after a few years) or PA's (still a grad commitment but far less than med school). I know people that have gone into banking, and have met people in the agricultural industry who do biochemical work and made 70k easy straight out of undergrad. There are also plenty of other industries that aren't quite as stable but pay well and have plenty of demand. I've met people in marketing and advertising who free-lance and charge $100+/hour. Wedding photographers can make 6 figures working only weekends. I made $40/hour as an ACT/SAT tutor and I've met people that charged as much as $75/hour for the same. That's not even considering decently paying labor jobs like plumbing or electricians and I haven't even touched on tech jobs. There's always opportunity out there, but I think so many people get caught up in the standard blueprint of graduating high school, getting into a good college, and finding a traditional salary based job that they don't even realize all the opportunities that are out there. The catch is that you actually have to be willing to put in the work to get started and think outside the box, which even the brightest of us aren't always willing to do.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Night Mode 2017 was pretty great until recently, it's by far my favorite but I'll have to switch to 2013 when I'm not in the Lounge for functional reasons.

SDN Blue 2013, just checked. Never gonna change.

On topic, OP sounds like she's craving for attention on the internet. Not a fan due to the off-hand "would kill myself" comment if she didn't have parents who could pay off her loans. But whatever, she can do her own thing. One thread limit though.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

All do schools and Caribbean schools like money. The quality is variable, but all want money.

Do schools can raise class sizes each year without adding more facilulty or facilities. And it's known at my school that they factor in a certain percent of the people which will likely not do all four years.

You can't just keep adding students to infinity. You need COCA approval every time you want to increase class size. Some schools have trouble recruiting good students, but let's not start the rumor that we are running a mainland Caribbean diploma mill

 

[grapefruit17]

You can't just keep adding students to infinity. You need COCA approval every time you want to increase class size. Some schools have trouble recruiting good students, but let's not start the rumor that we are running a mainland Caribbean diploma mill

You need coca approval to open a new do school and these are popping up everywhere with more in the works.

Class sizes are increasing for many do schools. you took what I said out of context. More spots are going to open up. Maybe not a diploma mill, but more people will have access from the newer schools that will be less competive.

 

[Stagg737]

You need coca approval to open a new do school and these are popping up everywhere with more in the works.

Class sizes are increasing for many do schools. you took what I said out of context. More spots are going to open up. Maybe not a diploma mill, but more people will have access from the newer schools that will be less competive.

The same thing is happening on the LCME side, it's not just COCA. 16 new MD schools/campuses have opened since 2012, and several more MD schools are in the works, so let's not pretend it's a DO or COCA issue...

 

[Nucleus Accumbens]

You can't just keep adding students to infinity. You need COCA approval every time you want to increase class size. Some schools have trouble recruiting good students, but let's not start the rumor that we are running a mainland Caribbean diploma mill

All this talk about people failing programs, etc is irrelevant. No matter how hard you try, the odds favor a less than 100% graduation of an initial class. The attrition rate is not the problem, it's the innate bias that exists at the residency matching process towards USMD irrespective of board scores. I hear however, that will be changing with the advent of the merger, since the pool will further increase. I'm not really inclined to believe that though, since PDs have the same old school though processes.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[IslandStyle808]

Having been through most of it, no, no they couldn't. Most people don't have the drive, or the will, or the motivation for it. How far are you through the training process by the way? It's the clinical years that I think most people would lose their minds in, a lot of people could survive preclinical (though many of them wouldn't make it through the boards).

Also, I've gotta say, @Lee @Winged Scapula and all the other mods, I'm not liking the removal of status from people. It's nice to know whether I'm interacting with a resident, medical student, or premed, because now I've got no context with which to apply to this guy's statements. Unless you know the particular poster, this is going to result in possibly thousands of unnecessary "where are you in the training process" posts.

You would still be asking this question even with the status. There is a big difference between MS-1 and MS-4. So might as well just ask and then continue the conversation.

As for me, I didn't like showing my status. I got sick of the pretentious medical students (yep even the med student accepted)/residents who quote "you're just a pre-med" you wouldn't understand (said in a more condescending way to me and others). What bugged me wasn't so much that, but the fact that they didn't explain their point further so I would understand. Kind of like I was too dumb to get it. So I took off my status when I entered medical school as a reminder to not be that way. Yeah, I am still sarcastic but at least I will explain my point till some one gets it (or I get tired and stop commenting).

I think part of my reason for not choosing to show my status was watching you comment on the boards. You were rocking the "non-student" status while still explain things to people of all walks of life in a simple manner. So I decide to go the same route you did. I'm perfectly content with my status not showing and have no problem answering where I'm at with my training when asked.

 

[Mad Jack]

You would still be asking this question even with the status. There is a big difference between MS-1 and MS-4. So might as well just ask and then continue the conversation.

As for me, I didn't like showing my status. I got sick of the pretentious medical students (yep even the med student accepted)/residents who quote "you're just a pre-med" you wouldn't understand (said in a more condescending way to me and others). What bugged me wasn't so much that, but the fact that they didn't explain their point further so I would understand. Kind of like I was too dumb to get it. So I took off my status when I entered medical school as a reminder to not be that way. Yeah, I am still sarcastic but at least I will explain my point till some one gets it (or I get tired and stop commenting).

I think part of my reason for not choosing to show my status was watching you comment on the boards. You were rocking the "non-student" status while still explain things to people of all walks of life in a simple manner. So I decide to go the same route you did. I'm perfectly content with my status not showing and have no problem answering where I'm at with my training when asked.

Oh, I have no problem with there being or not being a status on a profile, but it does make things easier sometimes, cause I can just now and be like, "oh, this guy's a resident, he gets it" or whatever. Helps 60% of the time, every time.

 

[hallowmann]

Wow, can't believe I read through this whole thing. I'm not going to comment much on OP. I don't like a lot of what's said, but at the same time people were too harsh/defensive in the thread for my taste. Good for OP for stabilizing their life and being happy.

Was there a particular year or time that people seemed to drop out or leave ?

Total attrition was about 12% in my class. Realistically its more like 7-8% if we don't count the people that will finish in the next year. Most left in the first semester, end of first year, or end of second year.

This brings up an interesting idea.

Do you believe we have a responsibility as providers to continue to contribute to the healthcare of the U.S. given that we are investments for the healthcare of the country? Will you continue to use your medical degree?

You mean the investment the US gives for us for residency? I'd think working for equivalent years as your training probably pays that off.

Not really seeing the investment for med school, except the money the fed is making off of our loans. They're getting one heck of a ROI on those loans, and without the residency they wouldn't be, so residency might just be a bit of securing their investment.

Maybe I'm a bit cynical right now, but that's how I feel at the moment.

It seems op left med school during second year debt free. That decision seems like a good one. I'm a bit into 3rd year and it's gotten ridiculously bad.

The surgeons complain about their life being hard, yet they expect the students to be there before them(5:00am), stay until they leave(10-11pm), and THEN do extra readings at home(which even the residents and attendings dont have to do). All the while they are making you do this, they also berate all the students and hold grades and evals hostage.

Screw medicine and screw surgeons. Their divorce rate and general reputation makes complete sense now. They are ****ty people and they get to take out their anger on med students. **** them.

It'll be fine. Don't take those surgeons so seriously. If they were happy with their lives/who they are they wouldn't feel the need to put everyone around them down.

It'll all pass. Third year was draining, but most of it isn't too bad.

Where she was headed, she would have failed if she didn't get help/change, but she was not kicked out. You need to do waaay more than that to get kicked out, it's actually one of the first few things I learned in the pre med process is that med school is not that mean, they actually really, really want you to succeed and recognize that's it's hard, and it actually take s a lot to fail out of medical school.
I just wanted to point that out, after watching the video it seems like it was....65 ish percent voluntary? If that makes sense....

This is very school dependent. Also, its way easier to be kicked out of med school than undergrad for example. A lot of schools I know of can kick you out for failing 2 blocks or for failing two major classes in a row or for failing a class while repeating a year.

If OP had multiple LOAs and 2 failed courses, there's a pretty good likelihood the next one could have been a dismissal.

...
Edit: Do med schools have learning centers, like UGrad schools? Yes or no?

Some do, but many are made up of tutors that are either your classmates or those above you as well as 1-2 "learning specialists". It's really hit or miss and quite variable by school.

At my school a lot of classes were adjusted at the end to make sure no more then 5 percent failed each time. so while doing bad was more then possible, failing was tough...

Yeah, that's not at all what my DO school was like. Fortunately we had things built in across the board that protected most people from failing (easier points built into a course or exam), but an across the board curve did not exist.

On one final exam the average was ~72% (69.5% was passing). The format was completely changed 2 wks before and it contained content that we were told would not be on it. We even went to SGA to have a discussion with the professors and admin. They refused to adjust anything or throw out the problem questions. In the end about 18% of our classes had to remediate the course that summer mostly because of that exam.

That said, on average for our major courses most people did fine (78-84%, with outliers around passing or in the low 90s) without a curve (the courses were set up that way for the most part).

...The ones that struggled didn't put in enough time or had something personal going on, usually.

Yeah, that tended to be the case, although most people did bad in first year, but managed not to fail.

Uuhhh...what? Did I read that wrong or is a small portion of the class supposed to fail?
( I know this is really premature for me But I'm so curious)

Yeah, whether by design or how it goes, a small portion of the class will always fail the harder courses. We even had a couple fail the minor easy courses, but those people must have not completed work or not finished questions or something.

How can they over recruit? I am pretty sure that every DO school has limited # of students they can recruit based on what is allowed by COCA...

Every DO school has a limit for matriculation defined as X + 8% expected attrition (either by taking time off, remediation, or dismissal). For example if the allotted number of seats was 150, they could actually take 162 with the assumption that 150 will probably graduate ontime.

...
Do schools can raise class sizes each year without adding more facilulty or facilities. And it's known at my school that they factor in a certain percent of the people which will likely not do all four years.

I get what you're trying to say, but don't make it seem like DO schools have zero oversight/limits. A class size increase has to be approved by COCA just like an MD class size increase must be approved by the LCME. It just happens that COCA may be more lax about it (I genuinely don't know if they are as I don't know the LCMEs rules for class size increases).

Is the acceptance rate for medical schools ( like, total, nationally) sooo low b/c of the limited number of seats vs applicants? Or is b/c a lot of people aren't seen as fit? I always wondered that.

Both. There is an abundance of well qualified applicants as well as not well qualified applicants. The reason entry stats of both DO and MD schools have consistently gone up is because the stats and number of well qualified applicants has increased. That said, you still have a ton of people that just apply, like the person I met with a 19 MCAT and a 3.1 GPA. Those people may end up in the Caribbean or (hopefully for their sake) in a different career.

Please don't say stuff like this. I need to keep lying to myself that clinical years will be better. Otherwise, I'll just cut my losses here and now.

Its different. I personally liked the med school stuff more in 3rd and 4th year. There was a lot personally going on for me in 3rd year, and in general it was certainly a way busier and draining year, but I enjoyed it way more than 1st and 2nd year.

You can't just keep adding students to infinity. You need COCA approval every time you want to increase class size. Some schools have trouble recruiting good students, but let's not start the rumor that we are running a mainland Caribbean diploma mill

Exactly.

You would still be asking this question even with the status. There is a big difference between MS-1 and MS-4. So might as well just ask and then continue the conversation.

As for me, I didn't like showing my status. I got sick of the pretentious medical students (yep even the med student accepted)/residents who quote "you're just a pre-med" you wouldn't understand (said in a more condescending way to me and others). What bugged me wasn't so much that, but the fact that they didn't explain their point further so I would understand. Kind of like I was too dumb to get it. So I took off my status when I entered medical school as a reminder to not be that way. Yeah, I am still sarcastic but at least I will explain my point till some one gets it (or I get tired and stop commenting).

I think part of my reason for not choosing to show my status was watching you comment on the boards. You were rocking the "non-student" status while still explain things to people of all walks of life in a simple manner. So I decide to go the same route you did. I'm perfectly content with my status not showing and have no problem answering where I'm at with my training when asked.

Yeah, I'm definitely not a fan of people that dismiss statements due to seniority without clarifying. Most of the time its done just to push their opinion as fact, when its often little more than their opinion, which is demonstrated by the disagreement between other med students and residents.

That said, there are moments in med school that you just have to experience. You can't really describe them and actually relay what they involve. The sheer amount of stress involved in those 12 hr dedicated study days leading up to Step 1, always being "on" and motivated in 3rd year rotations when you're there for the 5th or 6th (or even just 3rd) 12 hr day in a row, the stress of interviews and the match, the sense of how arbitrary it is when you get a glimpse behind the curtain at certain programs, the politics and people, the (numerous) moments of self-doubt, etc.

 

[OMSRealWeebHours]

Hey all-

I've recently connected with a handful of medical students on the fence regarding their medical education and it led me to revisiting the YouTube video I posted on here just two weeks after leaving an allopathic US medical school in 2015, at the end of my second year (link below)..



The metamorphosis that I have undergone since making the decision to leave medicine has been extremely profound. You might recall that I posted a video some months ago about my progress in tutoring etc.; today, I am working two jobs -- one full-time, and another part-time. The full time job is in Sales Engineering and my salary is 75k per year. The other job is developing for a new test-prep company, launching later this summer.

Aside from flourishing in various aspects of my current work, I have taken quite a liking to running and, in October, I will be running a half-marathon in support of the Parkinson's Disease Foundation. I wake up each day looking forward to what lies ahead -- something that would have seemed preposterous to me assuming my former predicament as a student yearning to detach from the medical umbilicus.

All is well, and I wish the same for each of you.

Best-
RP

I've seen there's some controversy on this post, but I am curious about how this is going still and the video is unavailable