The moral implication of owning a mobile home park

[ChudsMgee]

Has anyone ever looked into owning a mobile home park? I have been approached by an old friend (property manager and owner of 200+ single family rental homes) to invest a pretty sizeable amount (1.5 million) in a mobile home park that recently came up for sale. I would be 1/3 owner of the park.

After my wife began researching this business, she brought up the point that prices on lot rentals are routinely raised knowing that tenants "cannot afford" to move their mobile home and insisted that it is kind of "exploitive". I am more of the belief system that in America economic class is purely a lifestyle choice and greed doesn't really exist so from my perspective it doesn't bother me at all. This was definitely not a romantic conversation to have last night on Valentines Day.

Has anyone dealt with so called moral implications of investing? Any special considerations for mobile home parks?

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[bravotwozero]

I don’t know anything about mobile home parks, but would like to ask a question- is it not possible for one to charge rent to tenants that they can afford and still remain profitable? If the answer is yes, there shouldn’t be any ethical dilemmas.

 

[abolt18]

Has anyone ever looked into owning a mobile home park? I have been approached by an old friend (property manager and owner of 200+ single family rental homes) to invest a pretty sizeable amount (1.5 million) in a mobile home park that recently came up for sale. I would be 1/3 owner of the park.

After my wife began researching this business, she brought up the point that prices on lot rentals are routinely raised knowing that tenants "cannot afford" to move their mobile home and insisted that it is kind of "exploitive". I am more of the belief system that in America economic class is purely a lifestyle choice and greed doesn't really exist so from my perspective it doesn't bother me at all. This was definitely not a romantic conversation to have last night on Valentines Day.

Has anyone dealt with so called moral implications of investing? Any special considerations for mobile home parks?

There was a post about this a few months ago on the Whitecoat Investor that left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

In my opinion, you should only invest in mobile homes if you sincerely desire to make the tenants' lives better. They're generally a vulnerable and impoverished population, and there are moneymaking schemes where people come in, raise rent, increase other expenses on tenants, then turn around and sell it for a huge profit, having done nothing but made the location worse and less affordable for the people who need inexpensive housing the most.

Investing in Trailer and Mobile Home Parks | White Coat Investor

Years ago, I had a chance to invest in mobile home parks. Like most real estate investors then, I turned it down. That was a major mistake.

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

 

[Splenda88]

Has anyone ever looked into owning a mobile home park? I have been approached by an old friend (property manager and owner of 200+ single family rental homes) to invest a pretty sizeable amount (1.5 million) in a mobile home park that recently came up for sale. I would be 1/3 owner of the park.

After my wife began researching this business, she brought up the point that prices on lot rentals are routinely raised knowing that tenants "cannot afford" to move their mobile home and insisted that it is kind of "exploitive". I am more of the belief system that in America economic class is purely a lifestyle choice and greed doesn't really exist so from my perspective it doesn't bother me at all. This was definitely not a romantic conversation to have last night on Valentines Day.

Has anyone dealt with so called moral implications of investing? Any special considerations for mobile home parks?

Greed does exist, but I agree with you that most Americans are not good with money.

 

[forchinet121]

Has anyone ever looked into owning a mobile home park? I have been approached by an old friend (property manager and owner of 200+ single family rental homes) to invest a pretty sizeable amount (1.5 million) in a mobile home park that recently came up for sale. I would be 1/3 owner of the park.

After my wife began researching this business, she brought up the point that prices on lot rentals are routinely raised knowing that tenants "cannot afford" to move their mobile home and insisted that it is kind of "exploitive". I am more of the belief system that in America economic class is purely a lifestyle choice and greed doesn't really exist so from my perspective it doesn't bother me at all. This was definitely not a romantic conversation to have last night on Valentines Day.

Has anyone dealt with so called moral implications of investing? Any special considerations for mobile home parks?

You’re of the belief that greed doesn’t exist? What does that even mean? Economic class is purely a lifestyle choice? Lol..this has to be satire

 

[Saddleshoes]

Let's set aside the moral implication for a moment.
There is a crying need for housing to serve the lower half of the economic ladder in this country! Maybe you can help meet that need and do it in an ethical way.

( Maybe you can make a nickle at the same time!)

 

[Dusn]

You’ll be a 1/3 owner so I’m guessing you won’t have the final decision in anything.

I’ve learned in medicine to not go into business with practice owner physicians who really try to upsell out-of-pocket or questionable procedures to their patients. If they’ll do that to their patients, then they’ll screw me over, as their employee or fellow partner, without hesitation. I suspect the same trust issue applies to other investments like this as well. He may be your friend but he also probably couldn’t find someone else to loan him the money.

 

[doctalaughs]

There was a post about this a few months ago on the Whitecoat Investor that left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

In my opinion, you should only invest in mobile homes if you sincerely desire to make the tenants' lives better. They're generally a vulnerable and impoverished population, and there are moneymaking schemes where people come in, raise rent, increase other expenses on tenants, then turn around and sell it for a huge profit, having done nothing but made the location worse and less affordable for the people who need inexpensive housing the most.

Investing in Trailer and Mobile Home Parks | White Coat Investor

Years ago, I had a chance to invest in mobile home parks. Like most real estate investors then, I turned it down. That was a major mistake.

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

The comments in that thread are interesting- as well as how adamant some doctors (including WCI) are that it’s totally fine to make a lot of money this way, and there is no grey area of ethics here.

IMO this is pretty similar to starting a joint venture or investing into a payday loan company - perfectly legal and “someone is going to do it” but definitely taking advantage of a vulnerable population and their situation.

What is clear is that whatever is “right” or not, a ton of other doctors will think you are unethical for this investment choice.

 

[forchinet121]

The comments in that thread are interesting- as well as how adamant some doctors (including WCI) are that it’s totally fine to make a lot of money this way, and there is no grey area of ethics here.

IMO this is pretty similar to starting a joint venture or investing into a payday loan company - perfectly legal and “someone is going to do it” but definitely taking advantage of a vulnerable population and their situation.

What is clear is that whatever is “right” or not, a ton of other doctors will think you are unethical for this investment choice.

I mean the white coat investor guy is clearly just trying to make money, when you get to a certain point that it’s all about money ethics start to get flexible very quickly. You will make more money this way but at what cost? I’d rather have less millions at the end of all of this but my soul intact.

 

[RangerBob]

I mean the white coat investor guy is clearly just trying to make money, when you get to a certain point that it’s all about money ethics start to get flexible very quickly. You will make more money this way but at what cost? I’d rather have less millions at the end of all of this but my soul intact.

I don't think you understand WCI. I've never seen any post of his or comment that suggests he's unethical in any way. His blog has been incredibly useful for countless med students and physicians, among others. Most of us don't have a clue how to handle personal finance--he's turned that completely around.

The most controversial thing I've seen him say is basically a free market is required for people to have housing. His argument is if no one pays (and thus can afford) to build housing, then nobody can rent it. If you rent something for less than your cost, then you're providing charity. Which is fine if that's where you want to provide charity, as long as you can keep their lights on. It's not charitable to run something out of business that supports so many people. Similar to hospitals--think of "Scrubs." Bob Kelso gets a bad rap initially, but the show actually delves into how critical maintaining your operating margin is if you want to provide care to your community. A hospital that gives away care for free will go out of business unless someone else is paying the bills--as is partly the case with many national hospitals (esp a number of pediatric hospitals).

Without landlords, people would have to find their own land (how many fights/wars started that way?) and build their own home (but how would they afford it if they can't afford rent?). So you can see the utility of landlords in modern society. There's just no way I could build a solid, stable home without a mortgage (my bank is sort of my landlord--I just have a 30-year contract with them instead of a yearly one).

It's just a fact of life--eating, housing takes work! Animals scrounge for food, work to build a nest. We can do the same, or we can pay someone to do it for us. I'd rather take out a 30-year mortgage than be stuck on the streets in a tent.

With that said, I'm on the same page as you--I could personally never evict/kick out a tenant, which is why I don't invest in real estate. But I am thankful that others do, particularly in my corner of the woods here in CA where we frankly just need more housing. As a lifelong liberal/moderate liberal, I have a fairly free-market/conservative viewpoint of housing politics--we've regulated housing so much here it's either too expensive to build new housing, or it's too expensive to build affordable housing. And people are literally starving/freezing/suffering because of those policies.

 

[abolt18]

To me, this is the equivalent of private equity involving itself in healthcare. Profits become the only thing that matters and patient care suffers. There are certain industries where it's just inappropriate!

I feel like if your investment can so heavily impact a vulnerable population then your objective has to be more than just profits. I'm not saying people should forego any attempt to make money, but seriously, you should still try to be a good human that contributes in a positive way to the world. That's just my opinion.

 

[RangerBob]

To me, this is the equivalent of private equity involving itself in healthcare. Profits become the only thing that matters and patient care suffers. There are certain industries where it's just inappropriate!

I feel like if your investment can so heavily impact a vulnerable population then your objective has to be more than just profits. I'm not saying people should forego any attempt to make money, but seriously, you should still try to be a good human that contributes in a positive way to the world. That's just my opinion.

It's only the equivalent if the purpose is maximize profit at the expense of the people you're serving (like private equity decreasing the number of EM board certified physicians in EDs and hiring midlevels instead).

There's an ethical middle ground where someone can provide a service that others can't/won't (our gov't hasn't been very good at public housing projects) and make enough profit to make it worthwhile, while still providing the service at a reasonable cost to the people that need it. Raising rent because the landlord's costs went up and now they can't cover the mortgage/utilities from the rent they're collecting is reasonable. Raising it just because they can and want more money is not (in my opinion)

However, if people want cheaper housing/free housing, then we the people need to vote for politicians who will do that, and increase our taxes to pay for it. Which is fine if that's what society wants, but affordable housing won't and can't just appear out of thin air. Someone has to build it/maintain it. Unless society is subsidizing it or we find a charitable benefactor, the only way for housing to be affordable is to build cheaper housing (multifamily dwellings in particular--I'd argue rather than mobile home parks we should build more higher density/accessible housing (apartments, triplexes/quadriplexes, etc.) near transit hubs/amenities).

 

[abolt18]

It's only the equivalent if the purpose is maximize profit at the expense of the people you're serving (like private equity decreasing the number of EM board certified physicians in EDs and hiring midlevels instead).

There's an ethical middle ground where someone can provide a service that others can't/won't (our gov't hasn't been very good at public housing projects) and make enough profit to make it worthwhile, while still providing the service at a reasonable cost to the people that need it. Raising rent because the landlord's costs went up and now they can't cover the mortgage/utilities from the rent they're collecting is reasonable. Raising it just because they can and want more money is not (in my opinion)

However, if people want cheaper housing/free housing, then we the people need to vote for politicians who will do that, and increase our taxes to pay for it. Which is fine if that's what society wants, but affordable housing won't and can't just appear out of thin air. Someone has to build it/maintain it. Unless society is subsidizing it or we find a charitable benefactor, the only way for housing to be affordable is to build cheaper housing (multifamily dwellings in particular--I'd argue rather than mobile home parks we should build more higher density/accessible housing (apartments, triplexes/quadriplexes, etc.) near transit hubs/amenities).

Sorry, I meant to specify that what is described in the WCI article, to me, is solely profit driven rather than mission driven. It clearly delineates making a bunch of changes that make the owner more profitable by shifting expenses directly to the people living there while failing to make the living situation any better, creating a "Heads I win, tails you lose" situation.

But yes, owning it with hopes to make money is not inherently bad, if money is not your north star that guides every single decision.

 

[RangerBob]

Sorry, I meant to specify that what is described in the WCI article, to me, is solely profit driven rather than mission driven. It clearly delineates making a bunch of changes that make the owner more profitable by shifting expenses directly to the people living there while failing to make the living situation any better, creating a "Heads I win, tails you lose" situation.

But yes, owning it with hopes to make money is not inherently bad, if money is not your north star that guides every single decision.

The bolded is hard to avoid in life-particularly in the US where the pursuit and attainment of wealth brings so much power/prestige.

As an attending with a good income I see more and more why Jesus and other spiritual guides preached against the accumulation/hoarding of wealth. Having money does make it harder to keep our ethics because we get afraid of losing what we have, and excited at the prospect of getting more.

I joke if we were cavemen we’d only have a few worries—did we survive the day/get eaten, did our kids survive, is our house still standing, and did we find any food?

But as a modern wealthy American? Do I have enough disability insurance, will my retirement accounts be sufficient, how soon do I need to re-side my home, did my direct deposit go through yet, what is Fox News/CNN reporting now, etc etc.

Having less brings us back to the fundamentals. Obviously those cavemen fundamental concerns are quite stressful though! But there’s a simplicity there I am jealous of.

Mo money mo problems. Jesus actually said that. Just not literally…

 

[doctalaughs]

The most controversial thing I've seen him say is basically a free market is required for people to have housing. His argument is if no one pays (and thus can afford) to build housing, then nobody can rent it. If you rent something for less than your cost, then you're providing charity.

I’m not saying WCI or making money is unethical. He’s definitely helped a lot of physicians and generally has done a great job.

That being said, I don’t agree with his arguments in the comments section of that article.

Building/managing housing and making a decent profit is fine. No one has suggested that covering your costs and making a margin is unethical.

However, the article posted is taking about a physician investor making millions quickly and a large multiplier on his money (not like 10%). When you combine that with the core methods endorsed (largely just buying an asset then raising prices for essential utilities on a fairly vulnerable population that probably makes bad choices and can’t easily leave) it become more than simply “charging the market rate.”

There’s obviously a wide range of legal ways to make money in a capitalistic society. Let’s not pretend they are all equally moral.

I also wouldn’t feel great about selling vape pens to minors, running a casino, a payday loan front, or a brothel in Nevada even though all of those things are probably great opportunities to charge “market rate” and get a killer return.

 

[emergentmd]

Nothing is immoral about buying a business and raising rent to what the market allows. If it is too high, then the market will tell you so.

If I owned a property, I would maximize the sales price regardless if it prices people out of the market or if they can afford the rent after the sale.

 

[thesauce]

It’s fine. I’d love to buy one.

 

[SeniorWrangler]

There are lots of ways to make money that don't involve screwing over poor people. I wouldn't invest in this or in a payday loan company because it goes against my sense of honor and fair play.

On a more practical point, being the junior partner in an enterprise you don't know very well is just asking to get screwed unless you know the people involved VERY well, and maybe not even then.

 

[emergentmd]

Most business to some extent disadvantage the poor. This is just how a capitalistic economy works.

If you own a mobile park and are 25% below market, are you supposed to just keep it low to not "screw the poor". I so, then all owners are screwing the poor every time they raise rates to combat inflation? This just makes little sense to me. Its a business, maximize and give more to the poor.

 

[forchinet121]

Most business to some extent disadvantage the poor. This is just how a capitalistic economy works.

If you own a mobile park and are 25% below market, are you supposed to just keep it low to not "screw the poor". I so, then all owners are screwing the poor every time they raise rates to combat inflation? This just makes little sense to me. Its a business, maximize and give more to the poor.

You know you can have rents that still make you a profit without maximizing them and kicking out all the tenants right? But again when money becomes the only thing that matters ethics become very flexible..it’s a matter of getting a 20 vs 30 percent return, one allows you to keep the tenants while the latter requires you to kick them all out..the private equity guys probably would come up with a third option which is to burn the entire thing to the ground to make a 40 percent return..that’s the problem

 

[doctalaughs]

Most business to some extent disadvantage the poor. This is just how a capitalistic economy works.

If you own a mobile park and are 25% below market, are you supposed to just keep it low to not "screw the poor". I so, then all owners are screwing the poor every time they raise rates to combat inflation? This just makes little sense to me. Its a business, maximize and give more to the poor.

So you are saying there’s zero difference ethically between 3 examples of different businesses:

1) a business that teaches financial literacy classes for the poor and makes a 2% margin

2) a payday loan company charging 30% interest and making a 50% margin

3) a legal brothel making a 500% margin.

I would argue aside from the actual business model being important ethically, the profit margin and who it targets also matters. It’s more acceptable making a 500% margin if you build houses for billionaires than those who are barely able to put food on the table.

 

[NITRAS]

I would not want to own a trailer park because I would never want to deal with people who live in a trailer park.

I don’t think it is immoral to charge market rates for items. If you are charging above market rates, people will leave and go to places that are. It isn’t like you are going to have a monopoly of trailer parks.

 

[emergentmd]

So you are saying there’s zero difference ethically between 3 examples of different businesses:

1) a business that teaches financial literacy classes for the poor and makes a 2% margin

2) a payday loan company charging 30% interest and making a 50% margin

3) a legal brothel making a 500% margin.

I would argue aside from the actual business model being important ethically, the profit margin and who it targets also matters. It’s more acceptable making a 500% margin if you build houses for billionaires than those who are barely able to put food on the table.

I don't see how you connect me charging market rate for anything the same as doing a payday loan or brothel as most American's sell/rent their homes for market rate.

If you sold your home, and a poor family wanted to buy it for a 20% discount vs someone who wants to pay market value and you sold it for market value...... from your position then you are no better than someone running a legal brothel?

 

[emergentmd]

You know you can have rents that still make you a profit without maximizing them and kicking out all the tenants right? But again when money becomes the only thing that matters ethics become very flexible..it’s a matter of getting a 20 vs 30 percent return, one allows you to keep the tenants while the latter requires you to kick them all out..the private equity guys probably would come up with a third option which is to burn the entire thing to the ground to make a 40 percent return..that’s the problem

You are creating your own moral line which is fine, but don't set the line for others then make then feel like they are somehow immoral. I am sure if you owned property you would sell/rent below market. So next time you sell your home, and it appreciated 500K, then you should just list it 400K below market because 100K still is a good profit. No need to price gouge the buyer.

 

[forchinet121]

You are creating your own moral line which is fine, but don't set the line for others then make then feel like they are somehow immoral. I am sure if you owned property you would sell/rent below market. So next time you sell your home, and it appreciated 500K, then you should just list it 400K below market because 100K still is a good profit. No need to price gouge the buyer.

Selling your home is much different than buying a low income rental property and exploiting the most vulnerable in our society, selling at market to people that can afford it and have a lot of expendable income and options is much different than trailer parks where generations of people have lived there and they literally cannot afford to move out

 

[emergentmd]

Selling your home is much different than buying a low income rental property and exploiting the most vulnerable in our society, selling at market to people that can afford it and have a lot of expendable income and options is much different than trailer parks where generations of people have lived there and they literally cannot afford to move out

What you are missing and just shows that you are missing basic economics is that when someone buys a property even if its low income, they are paying market. No one is selling anything even a low income property below market. So when you buy something that is at market, then what is wrong with charging market? What you are asking is buying something at market, then not charging rent at market which is economically unsound. Now if the gov paid for half the closing costs, then yes there is a moral obligation to charge below market as this is likely a stipulation.

I bet you have never owned a rental property as there are years when you reap good profits and other when you are losing money. So you fatten the account when profitable and then draw from it when you are losing money. If you charge 20% below market for rent, and then you have a bad year (roof, HVAC, higher taxes, etc), do you think the renters would be - "gosh Mr owner, here is an extra 20% b/c you had a bad year"?

Its nice to hypothesize, but its not rooted in reality.

 

[doctalaughs]

What you are missing and just shows that you are missing basic economics is that when someone buys a property even if its low income, they are paying market. No one is selling anything even a low income property below market. So when you buy something that is at market, then what is wrong with charging market? What you are asking is buying something at market, then not charging rent at market which is economically unsound. Now if the gov paid for half the closing costs, then yes there is a moral obligation to charge below market as this is likely a stipulation.

I bet you have never owned a rental property as there are years when you reap good profits and other when you are losing money. So you fatten the account when profitable and then draw from it when you are losing money. If you charge 20% below market for rent, and then you have a bad year (roof, HVAC, higher taxes, etc), do you think the renters would be - "gosh Mr owner, here is an extra 20% b/c you had a bad year"?

Its nice to hypothesize, but its not rooted in reality.

I don’t think it’s a matter of people not understanding. If you think a type of investment is unethical then don’t invest. If you think buying mobile home parks and raising rents to “market” (whether that is a 5% or 500% margin for you) is not moral then dont do it.

Obviously each person makes their own decision based on the specifics of the investment t, whether that be mobile homes, luxury homes or a casino but some obviously find it morally repugnant.

 

[ChudsMgee]

You’re of the belief that greed doesn’t exist? What does that even mean? Economic class is purely a lifestyle choice? Lol..this has to be satire

Why would it be satire? People choose how hard and how smart they want to work and in America economic class is a lifestyle choice.

 

[ChudsMgee]

Most business to some extent disadvantage the poor. This is just how a capitalistic economy works.

If you own a mobile park and are 25% below market, are you supposed to just keep it low to not "screw the poor". I so, then all owners are screwing the poor every time they raise rates to combat inflation? This just makes little sense to me. Its a business, maximize and give more to the poor.

Capitalistic economy does nothing but give the poor the opportunity to choose another economic class. There are no policies that "disadvantage" the poor, unfortunately in America with tax inequality the system in place right now punishes you the more successful you get, such as 1% of the population paying over 40% of federal income taxes

 

[forchinet121]

Why would it be satire? People choose how hard and how smart they want to work and in America economic class is a lifestyle choice.

Obvious troll is obvious I’m not even going to get into it.

 

[RangerBob]

Why would it be satire? People choose how hard and how smart they want to work and in America economic class is a lifestyle choice.

While I understand where you're coming from, I'm guessing you don't have any poor friends.

Growing up middle-class when all I knew was the middle class life, I generally agreed with you.

Once I made friends with poor people, including my wife's family, it's easy to see how hard it actually is to get out of being poor. Being poor is more expensive than you think, both financially and time-wise (think about the lack of reasonable grocery store access for the poor, which means they have to pay more for similar foods at convenience stores, or buy prepared foods, plus the amount of time it takes to walk to a bus stop, wait there, then finally take the bus, with either transfers or more walking ahead of them...)

 

[ChudsMgee]

Obvious troll is obvious I’m not even going to get into it.

Didn't you choose to be a physician? People choose their destiny in America, that is the beauty of capitalism and the equality of opportunity it provides. There may be some marginal advantages such as myself being an immigrant from Cameroon which made acceptance into medical school much easier than my Asian brothers but this privilege, I have is negligible in the long run

 

[ChudsMgee]

While I understand where you're coming from, I'm guessing you don't have any poor friends.

Growing up middle-class when all I knew was the middle class life, I generally agreed with you.

Once I made friends with poor people, including my wife's family, it's easy to see how hard it actually is to get out of being poor. Being poor is more expensive than you think, both financially and time-wise (think about the lack of reasonable grocery store access for the poor, which means they have to pay more for similar foods at convenience stores, or buy prepared foods, plus the amount of time it takes to walk to a bus stop, wait there, then finally take the bus, with either transfers or more walking ahead of them...)

I came here from Cameroon as a child being shipped to aunt and uncle who cleaned houses for a living in Detroit. I know poverty and I know my friends who chose not to succeed as a child but I had the drive to bring the rest of my family here which led to this career and choosing to succeed, choosing to not commit crimes, choosing to not do drugs, choosing to wait until marriage to engage in coitus. I chose to succeed in the nation of opportunity, greatest nation in the world.

Being poor was not expensive, being "rich" hah now with American wife and large mortgage, this is expensive, HOA $500/month, pool guy, lawn guy, teslas, whole foods, vacations, the list goes on

 

[RangerBob]

I came here from Cameroon as a child being shipped to aunt and uncle who cleaned houses for a living in Detroit. I know poverty and I know my friends who chose not to succeed as a child but I had the drive to bring the rest of my family here which led to this career and choosing to succeed, choosing to not commit crimes, choosing to not do drugs, choosing to wait until marriage to engage in coitus. I chose to succeed in the nation of opportunity, greatest nation in the world.

Being poor was not expensive, being "rich" hah now with American wife and large mortgage, this is expensive, HOA $500/month, pool guy, lawn guy, teslas, whole foods, vacations, the list goes on

I don't doubt your upbringing, and certainly your drive can help significantly in the US compared to most countries, but your experience is not standard for poor who "just work hard." Our nation, while amazing in many ways, is also more caste-like than we want to admit. Hard work/good work ethic alone are not a guarantee of the type of success you're referring to.

Regardless, congratulations on being one of those who could "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" that many are unable (and yes, many unwilling) to do

 

[emergentmd]

Other than an extremely small percentage, most can work hard to get out of poverty. Their ceiling may not be an MD, but I refuse to believe that the 99% can't outwork their current economic status.

 

[ChudsMgee]

I don't doubt your upbringing, and certainly your drive can help significantly in the US compared to most countries, but your experience is not standard for poor who "just work hard." Our nation, while amazing in many ways, is also more caste-like than we want to admit. Hard work/good work ethic alone are not a guarantee of the type of success you're referring to.

Regardless, congratulations on being one of those who could "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" that many are unable (and yes, many unwilling) to do

Insinuating that there is some type of "caste" system in America is both absurd and dangerous. This is the type of rhetoric along with myths like conspiracy theories like "systemic racism" that led to this week's terrorist attack by the alt left in Atlanta.

The only "caste" system in America is between those with the drive to succeed and those without. Go take a visit to Cameroon or my wife's homeland of Burma and see real caste systems at work.

America is still the land of opportunity and I love this nation more than anything, it gives everyone the opportunity to succeed.

 

[RangerBob]

Other than an extremely small percentage, most can work hard to get out of poverty. Their ceiling may not be an MD, but I refuse to believe that the 99% can't outwork their current economic status.

Oh, absolutely. I think very few can’t improve their lot in life and at least get out of poverty/get their basic needs met.

But for an average poor kid from South Chicago with a single-working parent, there are so many roadblocks to the stereotypical American success. Their school may not have textbooks, and the ones they have may not be any good/missing pages, the teachers don't have much dedicated time to spend with the kids, nor does their single mom/dad if they're working all day to keep the lights on. After-school activities to keep that kid out of trouble cost money which they may or may not have. Few kids know how to cultivate a good work ethic/truly learn on their own, so by the time the kid is really able to develop realistic goals/work towards them (perhaps high school for most of us), they may be so far downstream already that it's almost (but not totally) impossible to catch up and pursue a dream like becoming an engineer/physician/etc.

There are so many single-parent households in poverty that this is not uncommon. It's not impossible for them to succeed though--just harder. One of my friends in med school grew up entirely in poverty/on food stamps in a single parent household, and was one of the few who was able to break through all the roadblocks most of us in the middle/upper-class don't even think about, and now she's practicing as a physician.

 

[RangerBob]

Insinuating that there is some type of "caste" system in America is both absurd and dangerous. This is the type of rhetoric along with myths like conspiracy theories like "systemic racism" that led to this week's terrorist attack by the alt left in Atlanta.

The only "caste" system in America is between those with the drive to succeed and those without. Go take a visit to Cameroon or my wife's homeland of Burma and see real caste systems at work.

America is still the land of opportunity and I love this nation more than anything, it gives everyone the opportunity to succeed.

I'm aware of what a true caste system is--hence my use of "caste-like." We have some caste-like tendencies here. Most western countries do-- look at how France views/treats their immigrant population. We are not India or Burma/Cameroon, but we not the fully egalitarian society our Forefathers envisioned.

It's clear that you don't see/appreciate my viewpoint. That's fine--it's no use for us to keep debating then.

I'm trilled you love the US so much and have achieved financial success here--despite it's many flaws it is an amazing country, and it's great to hear how much an immigrant appreciates it here.

 

[emergentmd]

Oh, absolutely. I think very few can’t improve their lot in life and at least get out of poverty/get their basic needs met.

But for an average poor kid from South Chicago with a single-working parent, there are so many roadblocks to the stereotypical American success. Their school may not have textbooks, and the ones they have may not be any good/missing pages, the teachers don't have much dedicated time to spend with the kids, nor does their single mom/dad if they're working all day to keep the lights on. After-school activities to keep that kid out of trouble cost money which they may or may not have. Few kids know how to cultivate a good work ethic/truly learn on their own, so by the time the kid is really able to develop realistic goals/work towards them (perhaps high school for most of us), they may be so far downstream already that it's almost (but not totally) impossible to catch up and pursue a dream like becoming an engineer/physician/etc.

There are so many single-parent households in poverty that this is not uncommon. It's not impossible for them to succeed though--just harder. One of my friends in med school grew up entirely in poverty/on food stamps in a single parent household, and was one of the few who was able to break through all the roadblocks most of us in the middle/upper-class don't even think about, and now she's practicing as a physician.

I agree. I tell my kids everyone has a different starting line in life but hard work will eventually win out.

This is not like basketball where I could spend every waking minute practicing and I could ever catch up to the god given talent any division I basketball player has. No way I break into D1 sports but 99% of the kids who do not have some learning disorder could work hard to become a doctor.

 

[Splenda88]

I agree. I tell my kids everyone has a different starting line in life but hard work will eventually win out.

This is not like basketball where I could spend every waking minute practicing and I could ever catch up to the god given talent any division I basketball player has. No way I break into D1 sports but 99% of the kids who do not have some learning disorder could work hard to become a doctor.

Are you serious? This is ridiculous.

I guess you don't believe in IQ.

Poverty in the US is not black and white. It's complicated. But many (probably most) who are poor in the US can get out of it with little effort. However, that does not mean people with 1+ standard deviation IQ below average can become a physicist/mathematician/physician/dentist/engineer etc... if they work hard enough.

 

[emergentmd]

I majored in Computer engineering and it is easier to master medical school than engineering.

Medical school is essentially discipline and hard work so most with average IQ can do it. Engineering is different as it requires a different way of thinking/analyzing.

99% may be alot, maybe 90%. Its mostly hard work, discipline, sacrifice and decent intelligence. But you do not need a high IQ to be a doctor.

 

[Splenda88]

I majored in Computer engineering and it is easier to master medical school than engineering.

Medical school is essentially discipline and hard work so most with average IQ can do it. Engineering is different as it requires a different way of thinking/analyzing.

99% may be alot, maybe 90%. Its mostly hard work, discipline, sacrifice and decent intelligence. But you do not need a high IQ to be a doctor.

You don't need a high IQ though it certainly has to be above average.

I know a few people with hard work and discipline who would like to become doctors, dentists but they are unable to.

Modern IQ ranges for various occupations

 

[emergentmd]

Hard work and discipline is a bigger prerequisite to become an MD than high IQ

Given a choice of a hard working avg IQ and the avg working high IQ then my bet is on the harder worker. I agree u have to be somewhat smart but most docs are not brilliant people.

 

[Splenda88]

Hard work and discipline is a bigger prerequisite to become an MD than high IQ

Given a choice of a hard working avg IQ and the avg working high IQ then my bet is on the harder worker. I agree u have to be somewhat smart but most docs are not brilliant people.

I am going to be blunt here. The average person out there is [insert].

You weren't really serious when you said 99% (then 90%) of the kids you went to middle school with could have been doctors if they wanted to.

 

[ChudsMgee]

I'm aware of what a true caste system is--hence my use of "caste-like." We have some caste-like tendencies here. Most western countries do-- look at how France views/treats their immigrant population. We are not India or Burma/Cameroon, but we not the fully egalitarian society our Forefathers envisioned.

It's clear that you don't see/appreciate my viewpoint. That's fine--it's no use for us to keep debating then.

I'm trilled you love the US so much and have achieved financial success here--despite it's many flaws it is an amazing country, and it's great to hear how much an immigrant appreciates it here.

France along with many other European countries have been destroyed by unchecked immigration. The people in power are basically bowing down to a foreign invasion and spitting in the face of the French population while putting them in persistent danger. Hungary is the only European nation standing up to this persistent threat but I don't know how much longer they can survive as the EU continues to grow stronger and enact their authoritarian policies. Unfortunately, the United States seems to be on the same path as the floodgates are open and criminals continue to cross the border on a daily basis. NYC is currently throwing away $10 million a day to deal with the invasion while hte city continues to fall into turmoil. Sad times

 

[sloh]

Hard work and discipline is a bigger prerequisite to become an MD than high IQ

Given a choice of a hard working avg IQ and the avg working high IQ then my bet is on the harder worker. I agree u have to be somewhat smart but most docs are not brilliant people.

Average IQ of college grad is 114. Average IQ is 100. No way "99% of the kids who do not have some learning disorder could work hard to become a doctor."

 

[sirspamalot]

"waited until marriage to have coitus" has to be the winning phrase of the month. Golly gee.

 

[The White Coat Investor]

There was a post about this a few months ago on the Whitecoat Investor that left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.

In my opinion, you should only invest in mobile homes if you sincerely desire to make the tenants' lives better. They're generally a vulnerable and impoverished population, and there are moneymaking schemes where people come in, raise rent, increase other expenses on tenants, then turn around and sell it for a huge profit, having done nothing but made the location worse and less affordable for the people who need inexpensive housing the most.

Investing in Trailer and Mobile Home Parks | White Coat Investor

Years ago, I had a chance to invest in mobile home parks. Like most real estate investors then, I turned it down. That was a major mistake.

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

It would be wise to also link to the follow-up post to this guest post. I wrote the follow-up post, not the guest post. Here it is:

What Is Fair Market Rent & Why Landlords Should Charge It | White Coat Investor

If landlords charge below-market rates, it's like giving charity to the tenants. That's the wrong move—for the landlord AND the tenant.

www.whitecoatinvestor.com

 

[Southpaw]

I grew up poor. Rich vs poor is a complex issue in the US. So is race and AA in America. So is immigration. Morals and ethics are all relative, different for each person. One can easily read through this thread and discern a difference in morality and ethics for each poster.

I’ve driven by a lot of trailer parks in my time. No owner is investing great amounts of money in trailer parks to make them nice. And no owner of a trailer park is owning it to try to make even a small, local dent in a housing crisis among the poor.

OP, I can easily discern where you stand on this. I applaud your wife. Good luck with your trailer park. By the way, I enjoyed reading your immigration story. I couldn’t help but wonder how you would have turned out if the US had closed it borders to you as you’d have it do millions of others.

Yes, many in poverty could get out with different life choices or a harder work ethic. I guess someone in America will profit off of them, may as well be you.

 

[ChudsMgee]

I grew up poor. Rich vs poor is a complex issue in the US. So is race and AA in America. So is immigration. Morals and ethics are all relative, different for each person. One can easily read through this thread and discern a difference in morality and ethics for each poster.

I’ve driven by a lot of trailer parks in my time. No owner is investing great amounts of money in trailer parks to make them nice. And no owner of a trailer park is owning it to try to make even a small, local dent in a housing crisis among the poor.

OP, I can easily discern where you stand on this. I applaud your wife. Good luck with your trailer park. By the way, I enjoyed reading your immigration story. I couldn’t help but wonder how you would have turned out if the US had closed it borders to you as you’d have it do millions of others.

Yes, many in poverty could get out with different life choices or a harder work ethic. I guess someone in America will profit off of them, may as well be you.

There is no "Rich vs. Poor" in America nor is there a "housing crisis". As for race, its not complex at all. Any significant racial inequality set in policy has long been eliminated and it seems like the Supreme Court has affirmative action in their sights which will seal the deal in making systemic racism a thing of the past in America.

AS for trailer parks, tenants need to make their own place nice as well, its not just up to the owner.