Switching Specialties

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GiardiaSpaghetti

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Hi, Im currently finishing an AEGD program and was accepted to a pros residency this july. After getting more experience this year ive been starting to regret my decision into going into pros, thinking more about the cases, stress, and overall lifestyle as a prosthodontist.

Ortho seems very appealing and am considering to apply this cycle. I was told by our ortho pd in school that my app is weak for ortho but I feel I should apply anyways, try to get a high GRE score, and see what happens?

Im worried about what would happen if I start pros residency and apply to ortho in the meantime. That it would look really bad and I actually may not be accepted anywhere at the end bc of that? This was post match for me, but if I was to drop my pros spot wouldnt I be blacklisted from the match regardless?

Are there others who’ve had similar thoughts and done something similar of switching specialties? I would totally understand if it’s too late or not possible, but any advice would be helpful thanks.

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Hi, Im currently finishing an AEGD program and was accepted to a pros residency this july. After getting more experience this year ive been starting to regret my decision into going into pros, thinking more about the cases, stress, and overall lifestyle as a prosthodontist.

Ortho seems very appealing and am considering to apply this cycle. I was told by our ortho pd in school that my app is weak for ortho but I feel I should apply anyways, try to get a high GRE score, and see what happens?

Im worried about what would happen if I start pros residency and apply to ortho in the meantime. That it would look really bad and I actually may not be accepted anywhere at the end bc of that? This was post match for me, but if I was to drop my pros spot wouldnt I be blacklisted from the match regardless?

Are there others who’ve had similar thoughts and done something similar of switching specialties? I would totally understand if it’s too late or not possible, but any advice would be helpful thanks.
I think you would only be blacklisted from Match if your prosth spot was from the Match. Post-Match, the Match doesn't care about...but someone correct me if I'm wrong.
 
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If your pros spot came from the MATCH program I believe you would be blacklist from MATCH and therefor could not get into any ortho programs that participate in MATCH
 
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Not 100% correct. If you drop from a position that was through the match. You cannot use match for Pros for one year and maybe for the whole system (not absolutely sure about that). After one year you can use the match for any specialty. Changes of heart do happen. My biggest concern is that you think ortho will be more "cush" than Pros. Two things, first, go shadow an ortho resident for a week, not one day. I think you may see that Ortho is not as stress free as a resident or provider as it appears. Second, if you start a program and apply to ortho half way through you will need time off for interviews, how will you explain that to your pros PD?
 
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Second, if you start a program and apply to ortho half way through you will need time off for interviews, how will you explain that to your pros PD?
"COVID"
 
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Not 100% correct. If you drop from a position that was through the match. You cannot use match for Pros for one year and maybe for the whole system (not absolutely sure about that). After one year you can use the match for any specialty. Changes of heart do happen. My biggest concern is that you think ortho will be more "cush" than Pros. Two things, first, go shadow an ortho resident for a week, not one day. I think you may see that Ortho is not as stress free as a resident or provider as it appears. Second, if you start a program and apply to ortho half way through you will need time off for interviews, how will you explain that to your pros PD?
I initially graduated dental school abroad where we had 12 weeks long rotations in the ortho dept over the course of two years. Im also after an advanced standing program here in the US where we also had rotations in the ortho dept shadowing the residents. Reason i didnt apply earlier is coming to the US i really wasnt sure what i wanted to do and by the time i figured something out it was too late and my app was weak to apply for ortho anyway

Sticking to my residency now, completing it, and starting ortho may be better, like Dr. Boyd or Dr. Misch. I agree it would be a bigger headache for everyone if I would decide to drop out halfway through. As for the interviews, we get a number of vacation days per year I can use. I had to do that for this cycle
 
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One thing’s for sure, you need to make sure this is what you want before you go stirring the pot in your life. If you end up in ortho then decide to go back to general dentistry or something else, that will be a very expensive and time-consuming way to figure that out.
 
I initially graduated dental school abroad where we had 12 weeks long rotations in the ortho dept over the course of two years. Im also after an advanced standing program here in the US where we also had rotations in the ortho dept shadowing the residents. Reason i didnt apply earlier is coming to the US i really wasnt sure what i wanted to do and by the time i figured something out it was too late and my app was weak to apply for ortho anyway

Sticking to my residency now, completing it, and starting ortho may be better, like Dr. Boyd or Dr. Misch. I agree it would be a bigger headache for everyone if I would decide to drop out halfway through. As for the interviews, we get a number of vacation days per year I can use. I had to do that for this cycle
personally I think if you are having doubts now, really consider just dropping prosth completely instead of even starting.

that way they can replace you with another resident. work for a year then apply ortho.

I agree with your assessment, I think ortho is overall better than prosth in many ways.

but that is why ortho is much more competitive and no guarantee you will get an interview or seat there either
 
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personally I think if you are having doubts now, really consider just dropping prosth completely instead of even starting.

that way they can replace you with another resident. work for a year then apply ortho.

I agree with your assessment, I think ortho is overall better than prosth in many ways.

but that is why ortho is much more competitive and no guarantee you will get an interview or seat there either
I was considering that too to drop it now and go to work. The biggest thing in my mind is im lacking research in my application which is pretty crucial for ortho from what I've seen and I would be able to improve my app there if I stay?

Im thinking that in a school setting it would be easier for me to contact the ortho pd, network, get better letters of rec, help with my personal statement, get involved with some leadership roles, etc. And if something happens and I don't get in when I apply btw 2nd/3rd year, I'll have pros to fall back on. This is my thinking right now
 
I was considering that too to drop it now and go to work. The biggest thing in my mind is im lacking research in my application which is pretty crucial for ortho from what I've seen and I would be able to improve my app there if I stay?

Im thinking that in a school setting it would be easier for me to contact the ortho pd, network, get better letters of rec, help with my personal statement, get involved with some leadership roles, etc. And if something happens and I don't get in when I apply btw 2nd/3rd year, I'll have pros to fall back on. This is my thinking right now
most prosth programs you have to pay tuition and you are usually kept really busy with lab work etc.

If your heart isn't in it 100% I'm not sure you will be able to do that well in the program. and if you don't do well in that residency you certainly could not get into ortho.

it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to give up 3 years of income and likely pay tuition for 3 years just to be in a position to apply to another residency imo.

you could stay in a school setting as a professor even and get paid for it. I'll let any ortho people chime in though for recommendations on that for research etc.
 
whatever you decide to do- don’t be that one orthodontist that is 1 mil+ in debt cuz they accumulated way to much loans.



This was 4 years ago- right now its probably alot more to attend the schools.

Just know you will be broke as hell if you getting close to 1 mil in loans, and no amount of specialty training is gonna pay that off anytime soon- especially with inflation running hot- and reimbursement stagnant if not decreasing. :unsure:
 
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I was considering that too to drop it now and go to work. The biggest thing in my mind is im lacking research in my application which is pretty crucial for ortho from what I've seen and I would be able to improve my app there if I stay?

Im thinking that in a school setting it would be easier for me to contact the ortho pd, network, get better letters of rec, help with my personal statement, get involved with some leadership roles, etc. And if something happens and I don't get in when I apply btw 2nd/3rd year, I'll have pros to fall back on. This is my thinking right now
There are ortho programs that takes research easier but they cost more.
 
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whatever you decide to do- don’t be that one orthodontist that is 1 mil+ in debt cuz they accumulated way to much loans.



This was 4 years ago- right now its probably alot more to attend the schools.

Just know you will be broke as hell if you getting close to 1 mil in loans, and no amount of specialty training is gonna pay that off anytime soon- especially with inflation running hot- and reimbursement stagnant if not decreasing. :unsure:


“Thanks to a 2006 law, graduate students may borrow not only the cost of tuition but also living expenses while they are in school. Income-based repayment plans cap borrower’s payments at 10 percent of their discretionary income (adjusted gross income minus 150 percent of the poverty line—$37,650 for a family of four) and forgive any remaining balance after 25 years.

That means that Mike Meru, the orthodontist in the WSJ story, who earns more than $255,000 a year, owns a $400,000 house and drives a Tesla pays only $1,589.97 a month on his student loans. In 25 years, his remaining balance, projected to exceed $2 million given accumulating interest, will be forgiven.”
 

“Thanks to a 2006 law, graduate students may borrow not only the cost of tuition but also living expenses while they are in school. Income-based repayment plans cap borrower’s payments at 10 percent of their discretionary income (adjusted gross income minus 150 percent of the poverty line—$37,650 for a family of four) and forgive any remaining balance after 25 years.

That means that Mike Meru, the orthodontist in the WSJ story, who earns more than $255,000 a year, owns a $400,000 house and drives a Tesla pays only $1,589.97 a month on his student loans. In 25 years, his remaining balance, projected to exceed $2 million given accumulating interest, will be forgiven.”
Yeah but he’ll be taxed on that 2 milllion. Hopefully he’s saving up for it. That tax payment alone will be roughly $800,000 he’ll owe in taxes (that’s not taking into account his orthodontist salary and excluding any deductions). So in the long run he’ll pay $1,589 x 12 x 25 years = $476,700 + ~$800,000 = $1,276,700. Yikes
 

“Thanks to a 2006 law, graduate students may borrow not only the cost of tuition but also living expenses while they are in school. Income-based repayment plans cap borrower’s payments at 10 percent of their discretionary income (adjusted gross income minus 150 percent of the poverty line—$37,650 for a family of four) and forgive any remaining balance after 25 years.

That means that Mike Meru, the orthodontist in the WSJ story, who earns more than $255,000 a year, owns a $400,000 house and drives a Tesla pays only $1,589.97 a month on his student loans. In 25 years, his remaining balance, projected to exceed $2 million given accumulating interest, will be forgiven.”

You still gotta pay tax on it. Like what the above poster said. 1.2 million.

Don’t forget the practice loan of 500k to 1 million plus the mortgage of 500k+. Houses pre Covid were cheap- they ain’t cheap anymore.

1.2 million plus 500-1 million practice loan plus 500k to 1 mil of mortgage loan. At minimum 2.2 mil debt versus 3.2 million.

I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Anyone that has worked and has paid off their debts knows how hard it is to earn money- especially in dentistry as overhead continues to increase and incomes continue to decline when adjusted to inflation.
 
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3 years is a long time for a residency that you are semi-interested in.

Ever consider a one year ortho internship? Rochester, UF, Ohio State,Jacksonville, Seton Hill are some that I know of that have one. Good way to network, gain ortho experience and if you perform well, you have a shot at interviewing and getting in. Good for those that don't have a lot of "ortho" on their application and/or have been out a while. You take a one year hit in terms of income but your chances will be increased more. No guarantees on getting in though.
 
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You still gotta pay tax on it. Like what the above poster said. 1.2 million.

Don’t forget the practice loan of 500k to 1 million plus the mortgage of 500k+. Houses pre Covid were cheap- they ain’t cheap anymore.

1.2 million plus 500-1 million practice loan plus 500k to 1 mil of mortgage loan. At minimum 2.2 mil debt versus 3.2 million.

I wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Anyone that has worked and has paid off their debts knows how hard it is to earn money- especially in dentistry as overhead continues to increase and incomes continue to decline when adjusted to inflation.
With so much debt, can such dentist qualify for $500k-$1 million home loan + another $500k-1million for a practice loan? Do banks care about the dentist’s massive student loan debt when they review the home/practice loan applications? Are banks less strict about giving out loans now? The reason I ask is I haven’t taken out a loan for a long time. The last time I signed a loan doc was in 2010 and it was for one of my rental properties.

A Dentist with $500+k debt shouldn’t take out more loans, unless he/she works 5+ days/wk and makes at least $300k a year. And with such massive debt, he can only afford to have a small low overhead practice. I was shocked when I read this thread on the dental town forum, where a young dentist pays $9k/month in rent for his 3000sf office. I can’t imagine how much he has to pay for his electricity bill to keep such large space cool. My 7op office is only half of his office’s size. And my rent is only $2800/month. Dentaltown - Where The Dental Community Lives®

I was equally shocked when I read this post. The original poster pays the hygienist $37/hour and another hygienist $41/hour. Each hygienist only sees 4-5 patients a day because his office has a hard time getting enough patients to keep both of the hygienists busy. He can easily let go one of these hygienists (or both) and does the cleanings himself. Dentaltown - Where The Dental Community Lives®
 
With so much debt, can such dentist qualify for $500k-$1 million home loan + another $500k-1million for a practice loan? Do banks care about the dentist’s massive student loan debt when they review the home/practice loan applications? Are banks less strict about giving out loans now? The reason I ask is I haven’t taken out a loan for a long time. The last time I signed a loan doc was in 2010 and it was for one of my rental properties.

A Dentist with $500+k debt shouldn’t take out more loans, unless he/she works 5+ days/wk and makes at least $300k a year. And with such massive debt, he can only afford to have a small low overhead practice. I was shocked when I read this thread on the dental town forum, where a young dentist pays $9k/month in rent for his 3000sf office. I can’t imagine how much he has to pay for his electricity bill to keep such large space cool. My 7op office is only half of his office’s size. And my rent is only $2800/month. Dentaltown - Where The Dental Community Lives®

I was equally shocked when I read this post. The original poster pays the hygienist $37/hour and another hygienist $41/hour. Each hygienist only sees 4-5 patients a day because his office has a hard time getting enough patients to keep both of the hygienists busy. He can easily let go one of these hygienists (or both) and does the cleanings himself. Dentaltown - Where The Dental Community Lives®
Banks look at cash flow. You think they have your best interest? They want to make the loan and make money on the principle. Nothing else. And if you can’t make it work- banks take the house, practice, car and will be ok. Don’t worry about the banks, they will be ok- the fed will backstop them if they need money.

Worry about the dentist. They will be sold the fairy tales and at the end of the day they have to make payments.

The argument about taking on more debt versus going small can be debated. In my opinion going bigger (debt) is better because at high debt loads you need big cash flow to pay everything off. The downside to this is that if you fail- you fail pretty hard. Going small is nothing wrong but at the same time with that kind of cash flow and high debt- you will live literally as a poor dentist. In addition with a big cash flow- 300-400k you can stomach a loss of 100k due to inflation… loss of patients… or recession. If your cash flow with a small practice is 150k then a loss of 100k would be devasting.

It’s easier to pay off high debt with high cash flow while maintaining a decent quality of life versus going minimal. But like I said that can be debated. I went “bigger” and at 35 pretty much have zero debt because the extra cash flow paid off everything and allowed me to invest and max out my 401k year over year compounding. If I went small- I don’t know where I would be today- I def would be living a more modest lifestyle.

Regardless this is way off topic.

If I was the op I would stick with prosthodontist. A lot of prostho do all on 4 and or place implants and or hard full mouth rehab. That is usually cash ffs. Ortho you have to deal with insurance, 3d printers, corp chains etc
 
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Banks look at cash flow. You think they have your best interest? They want to make the loan and make money on the principle. Nothing else. And if you can’t make it work- banks take the house, practice, car and will be ok. Don’t worry about the banks, they will be ok- the fed will backstop them if they need money.

Worry about the dentist. They will be sold the fairy tales and at the end of the day they have to make payments.

The argument about taking on more debt versus going small can be debated. In my opinion going bigger (debt) is better because at high debt loads you need big cash flow to pay everything off. The downside to this is that if you fail- you fail pretty hard. Going small is nothing wrong but at the same time with that kind of cash flow and high debt- you will live literally as a poor dentist. In addition with a big cash flow- 300-400k you can stomach a loss of 100k due to inflation… loss of patients… or recession. If your cash flow with a small practice is 150k then a loss of 100k would be devasting.

It’s easier to pay off high debt with high cash flow while maintaining a decent quality of life versus going minimal. But like I said that can be debated. I went “bigger” and at 35 pretty much have zero debt because the extra cash flow paid off everything and allowed me to invest and max out my 401k year over year compounding. If I went small- I don’t know where I would be today- I def would be living a more modest lifestyle.

Regardless this is way off topic.

If I was the op I would stick with prosthodontist. A lot of prostho do all on 4 and or place implants and or hard full mouth rehab. That is usually cash ffs. Ortho you have to deal with insurance, 3d printers, corp chains etc
I wonder if we have any practicing prosthodontists on here that can tell us more about life in practice.

my experience has largely been with academic prosth, and it seems like they make basically the same as most GP's in academia. I've heard the same about some prosth in PP as well and they are doing mostly single tooth dentistry which did not require a 3 year prosth residency.
 
Banks look at cash flow. You think they have your best interest? They want to make the loan and make money on the principle. Nothing else. And if you can’t make it work- banks take the house, practice, car and will be ok. Don’t worry about the banks, they will be ok- the fed will backstop them if they need money.

Worry about the dentist. They will be sold the fairy tales and at the end of the day they have to make payments.

The argument about taking on more debt versus going small can be debated. In my opinion going bigger (debt) is better because at high debt loads you need big cash flow to pay everything off. The downside to this is that if you fail- you fail pretty hard. Going small is nothing wrong but at the same time with that kind of cash flow and high debt- you will live literally as a poor dentist. In addition with a big cash flow- 300-400k you can stomach a loss of 100k due to inflation… loss of patients… or recession. If your cash flow with a small practice is 150k then a loss of 100k would be devasting.

It’s easier to pay off high debt with high cash flow while maintaining a decent quality of life versus going minimal. But like I said that can be debated. I went “bigger” and at 35 pretty much have zero debt because the extra cash flow paid off everything and allowed me to invest and max out my 401k year over year compounding. If I went small- I don’t know where I would be today- I def would be living a more modest lifestyle.

Regardless this is way off topic.

If I was the op I would stick with prosthodontist. A lot of prostho do all on 4 and or place implants and or hard full mouth rehab. That is usually cash ffs. Ortho you have to deal with insurance, 3d printers, corp chains etc

Banks look at cash flow. You think they have your best interest? They want to make the loan and make money on the principle. Nothing else. And if you can’t make it work- banks take the house, practice, car and will be ok. Don’t worry about the banks, they will be ok- the fed will backstop them if they need money.
You are right. The banks can always take your house and everything that you own if you can’t repay the debt. No wonder why a lot of young dentists can afford to set up bigger and more modernized offices than mine despite having much higher student loan debt.
The argument about taking on more debt versus going small can be debated. In my opinion going bigger (debt) is better because at high debt loads you need big cash flow to pay everything off. The downside to this is that if you fail- you fail pretty hard. Going small is nothing wrong but at the same time with that kind of cash flow and high debt- you will live literally as a poor dentist.
It’s true that you need bigger cash flow to deal with higher debt burden. But I think there are easier and less risky ways one can increase the cash flow without having to take out a big amount of loan for a practice. Work hard (having multiple jobs…part time at one’s own practice + part time at a corp), hire less staff, and keep the overhead as low as possible are a few ways that don't require big initial capital investment. Patients come to you because you’re a good dentist and NOT because of how big and beautiful your office looks. New grads should be careful about paying big $$$$ to purchase an existing office that he/she deems to be a “good” office. Most dentists don’t sell their practices when they are doing well ….unless they have some health issues. Most sell because their practices are on the decline and it’s no longer worth it for them to continue to put in the energy to run it.
It’s easier to pay off high debt with high cash flow while maintaining a decent quality of life versus going minimal. But like I said that can be debated. I went “bigger” and at 35 pretty much have zero debt because the extra cash flow paid off everything and allowed me to invest and max out my 401k year over year compounding. If I went small- I don’t know where I would be today- I def would be living a more modest lifestyle.
It’s great that the big $$$ that you put into your dental practice has worked out great for you. Dentistry is a great profession, isn’t it? There are not a lot of professions out there that allow one to be debt free in such a short amount of time. Many have to work until 65 to save enough for their retirement. I assume you went to school the traditional route and earned your DDS at 25-26…..that’s only 9-10 years of hard work....that's awesome!

When I was at your age, 35, I owed more than $2 million (home loan, practice loan, investment properties' loans, car payments etc). I started working at 29. I didn't pay off my last debt until I was 49. That’s 20 years.....and to me, it's not bad. I have had a very good stress-free lifestyle because I make enough to pay back the debts. Unlike you, I started small because I had a lot of debts. I used my wife’s 3 op perio office to start my ortho practice there. Then, I built my own office from scratch for only $120k (it's a small 1300sf office). Then, I started doing in-house ortho at my sister’s GP office. Then, I purchased an existing ortho office. I slowly increased the cash flow by adding more offices (and cut down part time associate days at the corp)….by traveling to work at multiple offices. I have the “Dave Ramsey” mentality…..and that is to get your debt under control first and then start investing and building wealth.
Regardless this is way off topic.

If I was the op I would stick with prosthodontist. A lot of prostho do all on 4 and or place implants and or hard full mouth rehab. That is usually cash ffs. Ortho you have to deal with insurance, 3d printers, corp chains etc
Prosthodontists do well if (a big IF) they have enough of these wealthy cash ffs patients to keep them busy. The problem is such type of patients are hard to find. It’s not easy to convince people to pay $30-40k to fix their teeth. And when people pay big $$$ from their own pocket for their dental tx, they expect a lot......PITA. Yes, orthodontists have to deal with insurance. But there are also a lot of cash patients in ortho as well. And since the ortho treatment fee can be paid in 24 months, many low income parents can afford to pay for ortho tx for their kids.
 
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I wonder if we have any practicing prosthodontists on here that can tell us more about life in practice.

my experience has largely been with academic prosth, and it seems like they make basically the same as most GP's in academia. I've heard the same about some prosth in PP as well and they are doing mostly single tooth dentistry which did not require a 3 year prosth residency.

That’s a great question. In my neck of the woods I’ve had patients that needed extra prostho work and have been quoted 30-60k and they get it done. I do live in a high income area.

But yes I’ve heard of prosthodontists that do simple GP work and can’t get those big cases. I guess it’s based on location, money and type of patients.
 
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So from what everyone is saying I'm screwed either way haha

I wouldn’t say that. I would say that you should really just buckle up, choose, focus and get your career going. It’s funny because there are always 1 or 2 students in your graduating class that are like… I’m gonna go get a masters in education or an aegd in xyz or they change specialities etc etc.

Then while the average classmate graduates, goes off to start their own practice, raise a family, paying off debts and start adulting… you go back and see where your classmates are- and there is always 1-2 of them still in school changing their mind or whatnot.

Nothing wrong with that but eventually you gotta just say this is what imma do and go for it
 
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I wouldn’t say that. I would say that you should really just buckle up, choose, focus and get your career going. It’s funny because there are always 1 or 2 students in your graduating class that are like… I’m gonna go get a masters in education or an aegd in xyz or they change specialities etc etc.

Then while the average classmate graduates, goes off to start their own practice, raise a family, paying off debts and start adulting… you go back and see where your classmates are- and there is always 1-2 of them still in school changing their mind or whatnot.

Nothing wrong with that but eventually you gotta just say this is what imma do and go for it
yep totally agree.

I don't think your screwed in any way. It seems like your passionate about the field and you have an AEGD under your belt.

imo I think you should skip the residency and go straight to work. then revisit if you want to specialize later.
 
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If you don’t want to do prosth, just stop now before starting the program.

Reset your app and apply to Ortho next cycle. Having 1 year of experience as a GD would strengthen your application.

Being a prosth without wanting to be one won’t the fun…it’s kinda a hard specialty because few dentists refer to prosth and you get some of the most behaviorally challenging adults as referrals…only do it if you love the complexity of large cases.
 
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What did you finally do?
Going to do pros bc every specialty has it’s own set of things that we may want to change about it and the grass may not always be greener on the other side. And in terms of the stress, I think all specialties have their own unique stresses and we learn to deal with them as we get more experienced. Had to also remind myself why I chose pros in the first place and that I am very fortunate to be in a position where I have a spot in a residency program and honestly now Im pretty excited to start this July. Plus after pros I can always do the maxillofacial fellowship, I also looked into those implant dentistry programs in Boston, more time and money investment but would be awesome to be able to place, restore implants at a much higher level than what I’ll be exposed to during residency now since it won’t be too in depth I dont think. Just going to go full throttle and go as far as I can with pros
 
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Going to do pros bc every specialty has it’s own set of things that we may want to change about it and the grass may not always be greener on the other side. And in terms of the stress, I think all specialties have their own unique stresses and we learn to deal with them as we get more experienced. Had to also remind myself why I chose pros in the first place and that I am very fortunate to be in a position where I have a spot in a residency program and honestly now Im pretty excited to start this July. Plus after pros I can always do the maxillofacial fellowship, I also looked into those implant dentistry programs in Boston, more time and money investment but would be awesome to be able to place, restore implants at a much higher level than what I’ll be exposed to during residency now since it won’t be too in depth I dont think. Just going to go full throttle and go as far as I can with pros
That's a wise decision. Best of luck.
 
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