Snakes in the weeds

[gumgardener2009]

Has anyone noticed classmates who swore for 3 years that they didn't want to specialize, are now applying to specialty programs? What's up with that? Are they afraid to fail publicly so they wait until they know their numbers are competititive? Are they afraid that their GP friends would think less of them? Did they finally realize that their handskills suck and they should find another angle? Or did they genuinely just find an interest in specializing?
E.g., A girl in my class actually had the cajones to say in her speech for class president "I am running for the right reasons; I don't want to specialize". A month later she was doing an OMS externship!

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[UConn_SDM]

Or people change their minds? I did everything a good little specialist-to-be should do - I scored well on my boards - had all my extracurriculars - published 2 articles in well known journals.

I wanted to specialize until the end of 3rd year (you know after I actually started to treating patients for some period of time) when it finally hit me that I enjoy general dentistry.

I don't see how you can ask people to stick to a decision to not specialize when they made that decision first year before they knew their ass from their elbow??

Perhaps your class president changed her mind after she started treating patients and was more informed - in other words maybe she had to actually do some oral surgery before she could decide she likes oral surgery.

 

[gumgardener2009]

Or people change their minds? I did everything a good little specialist-to-be should do - I scored well on my boards - had all my extracurriculars - published 2 articles in well known journals.

I wanted to specialize until the end of 3rd year (you know after I actually started to treating patients for some period of time) when it finally hit me that I enjoy general dentistry.

I don't see how you can ask people to stick to a decision to not specialize when they made that decision first year before they knew their ass from their elbow??

Perhaps your class president changed her mind after she started treating patients and was more informed - in other words maybe she had to actually do some oral surgery before she could decide she likes oral surgery.

That's not the point. It's not a matter of changing one's mind. I respect someone who decides that being a GP is enjoyable and what they want to do after saying publicly that they wanted to specialize. My point is that if the scenario is reversed and they go from wanting to be a GP to a specialist it smells like a rat. It appears that they were insecure to let the class know that they might be a "gunner" because if they fail to get in they look just a little bit stupid. I'm saying that might be their perception. To be honest I'd respect them more for publicly attempting something and failing than for hiding it and succeeding.
BTW, the girl I previously mentioned did not win the election and she must have known at the time of the speech that she was taking that trip to do an externship.

 

[UConn_SDM]

That's not the point. It's not a matter of changing one's mind. I respect someone who decides that being a GP is enjoyable and what they want to do after saying publicly that they wanted to specialize. My point is that if the scenario is reversed and they go from wanting to be a GP to a specialist it smells like a rat.

That is the point! Fundamentally there is NO difference between deciding to go from GP to specialist or specialist to GP. Reread my post - how can you expect anyone to decide if they want to be a GP or a specialist before they do the dentistry?

Two days after giving her speech your class president could've had the most profound experience of her life in oral surgery - one where she knew this is what she wanted to do for a living.

I think it's ridiculous when someone sits in first year lecture declaring they want to be an endodontist having never done any endodontistry.

Your judging people for making a mature and responsible decision - a decision that I personally think you can not make until you have been doing some dentistry for some period of time.

This means most people will not solidify their decisions until just before they have to send out their applications. This also means people will be changing their minds just before applications are due.

If your opinion of dentistry as a whole is not shaped by your experiences in dental school you're not paying attention. We had a couple people who decided they wanted to specialize the first day of first year and are now in a speciality they don't like because they thought if they changed their minds they "failed to achieve their goals of specializing".

Yes there are people who will not say they want to specialize when they are secretly planning to the entire time - but how would you know who these people were and more importantly why do you care?

 

[ToothMonkey]

I think it's ridiculous when someone sits in first lecture declaring they want to be an endodontist having never done any endodontistry.

Your judging people for making a mature and responsible decision - a decision that I personally think you can not make until you have been doing some dentistry for some period of time.

Exactly. The vast majority of incoming dental students are in no position to make an informed decision about specializing. Sure, there are exceptions, but in most cases the only possible reasons a DS1 could have for announcing a desire to specialize are money and status--not exactly the greatest reasons to enter a field.

To me it's the pre-dental specialist wannabes who come across rather badly. By contrast, those who have always planned on being a GP and simply work hard enough to keep their options open down the road (should later didactic and clinical exposure change their mind)...they are going about it the right way.

 

[Yah-E]

how can you expect anyone to decide if they want to be a GP or a specialist before they do the dentistry?

Point taken. But also consider this: we can easily have pre-dental students who have shadowed a specialist, many specialists, or a general dentist for many years before they started dental school. Sure they don't have clinical hands-on experience, but they sure have been around the scope of practice enough to determine or decide if they want to specialize.

To say "it's ridiculous" for a dental student wanting to specialize from day one of dental school is simply not fair for particular students where they have genuine passion to a particular specialization.

Personally, everyone on SDN knows that I wanted to specialize in OMFS since day one when I signed on, heck everyone in my dental class knew from day one. Sure, I didn't shadow an oral surgeon for years as a predental student, but I was interested enough to shadow him for 3 months in AZ. I knew I was very intrigued with OMFS specialty, but not until in the head and neck course where I was hooked during 1st semester 1st year in dental school .

I made a goal and point to find out more about OMFS since then and found out what I needed to do to get there. So in essence, I knew what I wanted early and I knew what I needed to do to have the best chance to get it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, one can know what they want early and then plan it accordingly.

Speaking of planning, why do you think I participated in so many OMFS externships? Because I knew I wanted to find out more about OMFS and have planned, applied, and participated externships early. My first OMFS externship was right after my 2nd year of dental school where I had never gave an injection to a live patient or extracted a single tooth. I was accepted to participate in an OMFS externship as early as the first summer after my first year at Jacksonville, FL (Shands Hospital), but my dental school wouldn't permit or cover me because I had just finished my first year of dental school. Key point here is that I had enough interests in OMFS, I applied to an externship right away right after my 1st year of dental school and was granted the opportunity by the OMFS residency.

Many OMFS applicants either have no externship experiences or they have couple of short externships during their summer between 3rd and 4th year because they were either undecided until later (after they've gone through OMFS courses) or once they know they had the numbers.

Another example, for NBDE Part 1, I knew I had to get an least a 90 to be competitive for OMFS programs, I knew what I needed to do and I went after it. Instead of taking the Part 1 and see how well I can do, I simply forced my studies in such way that I HAVE TO HAVE a 90 because of my goal for OMFS.

You can either wait for the numbers and then decide to specialize

or

You can decide to specialize and then aim to get them numbers

I chose the latter.

 

[gumgardener2009]

That is the point! Fundamentally there is NO difference between deciding to go from GP to specialist or specialist to GP. Reread my post - how can you expect anyone to decide if they want to be a GP or a specialist before they do the dentistry?

Fundamentally no difference. Perceptually, big difference. You start adding egos and social interactions. Group psychology doesn't want anyone to stand out from the crowd.

Two days after giving her speech your class president could've had the most profound experience of her life in oral surgery - one where she knew this is what she wanted to do for a living.

Doubt it! She's gotten a rep at our school as being all about herself. Not a gunner but cutthroat.

I think it's ridiculous when someone sits in first year lecture declaring they want to be an endodontist having never done any endodontistry.

Your judging people for making a mature and responsible decision - a decision that I personally think you can not make until you have been doing some dentistry for some period of time.

This means most people will not solidify their decisions until just before they have to send out their applications. This also means people will be changing their minds just before applications are due.

If your opinion of dentistry as a whole is not shaped by your experiences in dental school you're not paying attention. We had a couple people who decided they wanted to specialize the first day of first year and are now in a speciality they don't like because they thought if they changed their minds they "failed to achieve their goals of specializing".

It's a fact of life that there are people who hate their jobs and won't do anything about it. How they got there may be ego and family pressure. Why they don't leave may have to be with not being willing to give up the paycheck or not wanting to look like a quitter. People should be willing to learn and to change. Nowadays people are willing to publicly talk about their sex lives and bodily functions with no shame, but are afraid to declare what their life goals are? Whatssup with that?

Yes there are people who will not say they want to specialize when they are secretly planning to the entire time - but how would you know who these people were and more importantly why do you care?

Why do I care? I can't answer that. Maybe it's because I'm a risk-taker. I'm willing to fall flat on my face. The highs are higher and the lows are lower this way, but I'm having fun. I can't see it from their perspective and am just asking for answers.

 

[UConn_SDM]

To say "it's ridiculous" for a dental student wanting to specialize from day one of dental school is simply not fair for particular students where they have genuine passion to a particular specialization.

Fact is even though you "wanted" to specialize from day 1 it was really just a best guess on your part about which specialty you thought you would like. I think that happens often - a person goes into 1st year saying I think I would like endo and they do the endo and they like doing the endo.

My point is not that you shouldn't have an idea about what you want to do in dentistry when you go into 1st year. My point is that you really don't know what is best for you until you get experience and you should keep an open mind - which you did - and like the above endo case, OMFS fit your expectations like you thought it would.

Getting back to this thread - what if you did your externships and decided you hate oral surgery - but you like surgery and can't think of anything more enjoyable than SRPing - you changed your mind. Would it be fair for a classmate to accuse you of being a snake in the grass wannabe periodontist who lied for the past 4 years about wanting to go into OMFS when really you were gunning for perio the entire time?

 

[UConn_SDM]

Doubt it! She's gotten a rep at our school as being all about herself. Not a gunner but cutthroat.

You still don't get it! I can't argue about specific cases you can think of about your classmates.

My point is you very rarely ever really know someone's true motivations for doing anything. Give your classmates the benefit of the doubt and give them a break......they are your colleagues.

 

[gumgardener2009]

To me it's the pre-dental specialist wannabes who come across rather badly. By contrast, those who have always planned on being a GP and simply work hard enough to keep their options open down the road (should later didactic and clinical exposure change their mind)...they are going about it the right way.

I added the bold to "keep their options open" because it's a phrase I keep hearing over and over. It comes off as wishy-washy, because you know that you're interested in specializing but you don't want to lay it on the line publicly

Point taken. But also consider this: we can easily have pre-dental students who have shadowed a specialist, many specialists, or a general dentist for many years before they started dental school. Sure they don't have clinical hands-on experience, but they sure have been around the scope of practice enough to determine or decide if they want to specialize.

To say "it's ridiculous" for a dental student wanting to specialize from day one of dental school is simply not fair for particular students where they have genuine passion to a particular specialization.

Personally, everyone on SDN knows that I wanted to specialize in OMFS since day one when I signed on, heck everyone in my dental class knew from day one. Sure, I didn't shadow an oral surgeon for years as a predental student, but I was interested enough to shadow him for 3 months in AZ. I knew I was very intrigued with OMFS specialty, but not until in the head and neck course where I was hooked during 1st semester 1st year in dental school .

I made a goal and point to find out more about OMFS since then and found out what I needed to do to get there. So in essence, I knew what I wanted early and I knew what I needed to do to have the best chance to get it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, one can know what they want early and then plan it accordingly.

Speaking of planning, why do you think I participated in so many OMFS externships? Because I knew I wanted to find out more about OMFS and have planned, applied, and participated externships early. My first OMFS externship was right after my 2nd year of dental school where I had never gave an injection to a live patient or extracted a single tooth. I was accepted to participate in an OMFS externship as early as the first summer after my first year at Jacksonville, FL (Shands Hospital), but my dental school wouldn't permit or cover me because I had just finished my first year of dental school. Key point here is that I had enough interests in OMFS, I applied to an externship right away right after my 1st year of dental school and was granted the opportunity by the OMFS residency.

Many OMFS applicants either have no externship experiences or they have couple of short externships during their summer between 3rd and 4th year because they were either undecided until later (after they've gone through OMFS courses) or once they know they had the numbers.

Another example, for NBDE Part 1, I knew I had to get an least a 90 to be competitive for OMFS programs, I knew what I needed to do and I went after it. Instead of taking the Part 1 and see how well I can do, I simply forced my studies in such way that I HAVE TO HAVE a 90 because of my goal for OMFS.

You can either wait for the numbers and then decide to specialize

or

You can decide to specialize and then aim to get them numbers

I chose the latter.

Right on Yah-E! That's what I'm talking about. Set a goal. Go for it. No deceptions. No lying in the weeds. If you end up not reaching that goal, you have to answer to yourself.

 

[Yah-E]

Getting back to this thread - what if you did your externships and decided you hate oral surgery - but you like surgery and can't think of anything more enjoyable than SRPing - you changed your mind. Would it be fair for a classmate to accuse you of being a snake in the grass wannabe periodontist who lied for the past 4 years about wanting to go into OMFS when really you were gunning for perio the entire time?

True, people do often change their minds after they've experienced a certain specialty in a negative manner. Luckily for me, OMFS grasped my interests more than what I had imagined!

 

[gumgardener2009]

Getting back to this thread - what if you did your externships and decided you hate oral surgery - but you like surgery and can't think of anything more enjoyable than SRPing - you changed your mind. Would it be fair for a classmate to accuse you of being a snake in the grass wannabe periodontist who lied for the past 4 years about wanting to go into OMFS when really you were gunning for perio the entire time?

I'm applying to perio and this makes me laugh!

 

[bitecys]

Many OMFS applicants either have no externship experiences or they have couple of short externships during their summer between 3rd and 4th year because they were either undecided until later (after they've gone through OMFS courses) or once they know they had the numbers.

Or, as is the case at Iowa, we only get about 2-3 weeks off each summer and usually that is devoted to research because we get money to do it. All six of my classmates applying for OMFS had only a couple weeks this summer to do anything as far as externs are concerned. Of course, the flip side is because we are in school so much we are already seeing operative patients the first week of our sophomore year.

 

[UConn_SDM]

I'm applying to perio and this makes me laugh!

gumgardener2009

Thanks I'm a little slow.......

 

[gumgardener2009]

Anecdotally, the people I know who've done externships are 99% sure it's what they want to do and don't come back to school with a changed opinion.

 

[UConn_SDM]

Anecdotally, the people I know who've done externships are 99% sure it's what they want to do and don't come back to school with a changed opinion.

Well anecdotally in my experience periodontists are anal retentive and socially ******ed but it doesn't mean it's fact and it doesn't mean I'll base my opinions about all periodontist on it either.

 

[gumgardener2009]

Well anecdotally in my experience periodontists are anal retentive and socially ******ed but it doesn't mean it's fact and it doesn't mean I'll base my opinions about all periodontist on it either.

And all periodontists used to wear plaid polyester leisure suits! This is a new era and I'm all about making perio cool, baby!
BTW, no need to get personal because you're not getting your way. Is this subject hitting a nerve?

 

[I AM SARA]

Point taken. But also consider this: we can easily have pre-dental students who have shadowed a specialist, many specialists, or a general dentist for many years before they started dental school. Sure they don't have clinical hands-on experience, but they sure have been around the scope of practice enough to determine or decide if they want to specialize.

To say "it's ridiculous" for a dental student wanting to specialize from day one of dental school is simply not fair for particular students where they have genuine passion to a particular specialization.

Personally, everyone on SDN knows that I wanted to specialize in OMFS since day one when I signed on, heck everyone in my dental class knew from day one. Sure, I didn't shadow an oral surgeon for years as a predental student, but I was interested enough to shadow him for 3 months in AZ. I knew I was very intrigued with OMFS specialty, but not until in the head and neck course where I was hooked during 1st semester 1st year in dental school .

I made a goal and point to find out more about OMFS since then and found out what I needed to do to get there. So in essence, I knew what I wanted early and I knew what I needed to do to have the best chance to get it. I guess what I'm trying to say is, one can know what they want early and then plan it accordingly.

Speaking of planning, why do you think I participated in so many OMFS externships? Because I knew I wanted to find out more about OMFS and have planned, applied, and participated externships early. My first OMFS externship was right after my 2nd year of dental school where I had never gave an injection to a live patient or extracted a single tooth. I was accepted to participate in an OMFS externship as early as the first summer after my first year at Jacksonville, FL (Shands Hospital), but my dental school wouldn't permit or cover me because I had just finished my first year of dental school. Key point here is that I had enough interests in OMFS, I applied to an externship right away right after my 1st year of dental school and was granted the opportunity by the OMFS residency.

Many OMFS applicants either have no externship experiences or they have couple of short externships during their summer between 3rd and 4th year because they were either undecided until later (after they've gone through OMFS courses) or once they know they had the numbers.

Another example, for NBDE Part 1, I knew I had to get an least a 90 to be competitive for OMFS programs, I knew what I needed to do and I went after it. Instead of taking the Part 1 and see how well I can do, I simply forced my studies in such way that I HAVE TO HAVE a 90 because of my goal for OMFS.

You can either wait for the numbers and then decide to specialize

or

You can decide to specialize and then aim to get them numbers

I chose the latter.

How do dental students have so much time to write?

Is your dental school extremely easy that you have all this free time on your hands?

 

[gumgardener2009]

How do dental students have so much time to write?

Is your dental school extremely easy that you have all this free time on your hands?

It's summertime. One easy class and the rest of the time seeing patients. Plus Yah-e and I are going into 4th year, we're way past the brunt of dental school.

 

[UConn_SDM]

Is this subject hitting a nerve?

Nothing personally directed at you....I have anecdotal opinions about all specialties and GPs as well.

Nothing hitting a nerve with me either......I just think everyone is better served by being a little "wishy-washy" and giving the decision to specialize or not specialize it's due attention.

I just think people need to know it's OK to change your mind if that's what makes you happy and if what you end up doing is different than what you originally planned on doing, that's fine too. It's reasonable to have a different opinion of dentistry at the end of your predoc education than the one you had going into dental school.

 

[ToothMonkey]

It comes off as wishy-washy, because you know that you're interested in specializing but you don't want to lay it on the line publicly.

So it's not possible for someone to enter dental school planning to be a general dentist, yet not wanting to close off any doors prematurely because they're aware that they could very easily end up discovering one area of the field that particularly attracts them? I'm with UConn...that seems like an intelligent, level-headed approach, and not at all unusual.

Again, most incoming dental students are in no position to make the right decision regarding specializing. They just don't have the experience or information required to choose wisely. By arguing that the choice to specialize needs to made from year 1 you are essentially saying that a person needs to (a) accumulate enough experience as an undergrad to make an informed decision about dental specialties, or (b) make an uninformed decision. Maybe it's just me, but to me the first option is unrealistic and the second is foolish.

You say "wishy-washy", I say "flexible". Either way we can't read minds to find out what the true motivation for such behavior is, but I'm inclined to believe that in most cases students who announce their specialty later are acting rationally and honestly, not deceptively out of some ridiculous fear of being labelled a gunner.

 

[Yah-E]

Or, as is the case at Iowa, we only get about 2-3 weeks off each summer and usually that is devoted to research because we get money to do it. All six of my classmates applying for OMFS had only a couple weeks this summer to do anything as far as externs are concerned. Of course, the flip side is because we are in school so much we are already seeing operative patients the first week of our sophomore year.

At NSU, we barely have anytime off of clinic and/or school, mainly just vacations. I had to apply for time off to be excused from classes and clinic to do externships. No freebees here like schools such as UNC where they have mandatory externship periods for their dental students.

I, too, have clinical and graduation requirements, but I simply have to bust my balls when I do get back into the clinic since I've taken so much time off of clinic time for externships. Like this summer, summer is a time to catch up, but I have 7 weeks of OMFS externships approved that I will be gone for. I'll be in Chicago for a month starting mid-July through mid-August. This month is not free, I had to apply for it and be approved from my school.

 

[Yah-E]

How do dental students have so much time to write? Is your dental school extremely easy that you have all this free time on your hands?

When you're a SDN addict, you write! Yeah, my school is so easy that I don't even have to go to school or have any clinical requirements. They just give me Bs, but on good days, they'll give me an A. By the way, if you're good looking, then they'll make sure you'll get a 90 on the NBDE Part 1 boards!

 

[Dr. Pedo]

Has anyone noticed classmates who swore for 3 years that they didn't want to specialize, are now applying to specialty programs? What's up with that? Are they afraid to fail publicly so they wait until they know their numbers are competititive? Are they afraid that their GP friends would think less of them? Did they finally realize that their handskills suck and they should find another angle? Or did they genuinely just find an interest in specializing?
E.g., A girl in my class actually had the cajones to say in her speech for class president "I am running for the right reasons; I don't want to specialize". A month later she was doing an OMS externship!

I'm at a loss here?! Since when is there a requirement that someones life's career choice has to be made early and more importantly shared with everyone. That is the most immature concept I've come across. I mean sit and think about it for a minute; you actually think that those who broadcast their desire to specialize are somehow fulfilling an unannounced protocol on the proper etiquette of specializing.

We always looked at those who had to tell others they were specializing as the most insecure-----there were few exceptions----but mostly they were the same people telling us what kind of cars they drive, where they graduated from college and how much they spend on clothes. Moreover, how does that transpire to someone scared of public failure? If you are comfortable about your desires, know what direction you want to go, and feel confident about your decisions, why is it that the "I'm-going-to-specialize, I-have-to-get-the-best-board-scores, I-need-to-meet-all-faculty, I-need-to-argue-every-point," people get their panties-in-a-bunch about those that are specializing but haven't publically voiced it? It's rather humorous

Perhaps if you paid more attention to others and less on "YOU" and where you're going to sit in lecture----you might have noticed those putting in the extra time and work.

Obviously as a specialist in training and someone who was a non-traditional student I have little tolerance for *****ic ideologies. Sorry to be so crass but to start a thread on this topic in the dental residency forum is ridiculous and would be better served on the pre-dental or dental forums. Course most of this is tongue-in-cheeck---but...

 

[ISU_Steve]

Fundamentally no difference. Perceptually, big difference. You start adding egos and social interactions. Group psychology doesn't want anyone to stand out from the crowd.

Fundamentally there's no difference between a smartass wannabe periodontist and a smartass wannabe OMS, but perceptually there is.

As for my thoughts on this as a predent: yes, OMS is what interests me most- mainly because it's what I have been most exposed to and it's also the most challenging specialty because of the broad scope of what OMS's can do. I won't know for certain whether it is really for me until I actually can gain some experience in a hands on manner.

But on the flip side of the token, I know certainly that I really can't see myself doing perio ("grad hygeine" as it has been called on here by a well respected member of this forum), endodontics or prosthodontics. These simply do not interest me as much as even general practice does (which is to say "not much") simply because of the nature of what each entails.

Changing your mind (except perhaps in the middle of a presidential election) does not have any negative consequences, and truth be told, not informing your classmates of your plans does not either. One, it's not any of their business and two, it keeps the true gunners, such are you Gumgardner, from getting their panties in a twist because you have even more competition (and you know that is the true reason for this thread- she is going OMS and you (probably) couldn't cut it). Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

 

[budfrog]

Interesting topic. I am a fourth year and have openly declared my desire to specialize since long before I was ever accepted into a dental school. I spent a significant amount of time with a specialist prior to dental school and decided that is what I would really like to do. The next question naturally became, how can I make that happen? It turned out that dental school was required to practice as a specialist so the last four years have been a seemingly unending series of hoops to jump through on my way to the career I really want. There is no doubt in my mind that people can know they want to specialize long before they spend a great deal of time treating patients.

On the contrary, I don't think it is impossible to change your mind and decide to specialize part way through dental school. Unfortunately, most of my experience with these people seem that they do it for the money or for the prestige, not a true love of the specialty. I suppose in some cases it could be a fear of failure, but if you think you have the cajones to practice as a specialist, shouldn't you have the confidence to say that is what you want to do?

 

[bitecys]

At NSU, we barely have anytime off of clinic and/or school, mainly just vacations. I had to apply for time off to be excused from classes and clinic to do externships. No freebees here like schools such as UNC where they have mandatory externship periods for their dental students.

Ha. We have a dean of students who after you ask her for something she has a button she pushes that starts a recording of her voice saying "No." It's not quite that bad but close. Basically, if school's in session, you're here (generating money for the school).

 

[unlvdmd]

As for my thoughts on this as a predent:

The deal for getting this forum was that predents were NOT ALLOWED TO POST.

 

[toofache32]

The deal for getting this forum was that predents were NOT ALLOWED TO POST.

I think the forum categories are to organize topics, not people.

But I could be wrong...it's happened before. It was 1989.

 

[gumgardener2009]

We always looked at those who had to tell others they were specializing as the most insecure-----there were few exceptions----but mostly they were the same people telling us what kind of cars they drive, where they graduated from college and how much they spend on clothes. Moreover, how does that transpire to someone scared of public failure? If you are comfortable about your desires, know what direction you want to go, and feel confident about your decisions, why is it that the "I'm-going-to-specialize, I-have-to-get-the-best-board-scores, I-need-to-meet-all-faculty, I-need-to-argue-every-point," people get their panties-in-a-bunch about those that are specializing but haven't publically voiced it? It's rather humorous

The people at my school who talk about the money or the cars tend to be the kids just out of college, not necessarily those who want to specialize. Funny thing about the people arguing every point or getting their panties in a bunch, they were just as likely to be the declared specialty-track students as the GP-track. I remember all the students who travelled to research meetings over spring break were allowed to take a pharm exam a few days after the rest of the class. Most of these students wanted to specialize. Those who didn't do research mostly wanted to just go into GP. You would have thought the world was going to end the way the GP-track students argued that the research students got an unfair advantage. They're GPAs have little impact on their futures yet they were ready to kill for the grades! The dean had to come in to class and tell them to f***!!!! off, the school had the prerogative to delay the researchers test date because the school's philosophy is that research is important to the dental education.

Perhaps if you paid more attention to others and less on "YOU" and where you're going to sit in lecture----you might have noticed those putting in the extra time and work.

Those who don't know me may accuse me of being selfish, but I guess we all have to be selfish to put in the effort to get through dental school. If I'm selfish what about the guys with wife and kids going through this hell we call dental school.

Obviously as a specialist in training and someone who was a non-traditional student I have little tolerance for *****ic ideologies. Sorry to be so crass but to start a thread on this topic in the dental residency forum is ridiculous and would be better served on the pre-dental or dental forums. Course most of this is tongue-in-cheeck---but...

Ideology? This is hardly an ideology. Just a call to a discussion.

 

[gumgardener2009]

But on the flip side of the token, I know certainly that I really can't see myself doing perio ("grad hygeine" as it has been called on here by a well respected member of this forum), endodontics or prosthodontics. These simply do not interest me as much as even general practice does (which is to say "not much") simply because of the nature of what each entails.

Please, keep on spreading the word that perio is just "grad hygiene". It keeps the competition out. After taking all the perio classes at your school, your opinion may change like some of my classmates. They respect it more (but still wouldn't specialize in it).

Changing your mind (except perhaps in the middle of a presidential election) does not have any negative consequences, and truth be told, not informing your classmates of your plans does not either. One, it's not any of their business and two, it keeps the true gunners, such are you Gumgardner, from getting their panties in a twist because you have even more competition (and you know that is the true reason for this thread- she is going OMS and you (probably) couldn't cut it). Just my opinion, take it or leave it. :thumbupc

ISU_Steve,
You're in for a rude awakening. Every year, there are people who get into OMS residencies with mediocre numbers and there are people who decide on perio who could have gotten into OMS residencies. Also OMS is not as glamorous as y'all think. Surgeons don't make money on the operations done in the hospital, they make their money on doing lots of extractions.

 

[Dr. Pedo]

If I'm selfish what about the guys with wife and kids going through this hell we call dental school.

Ideology? This is hardly an ideology. Just a call to a discussion.

Yikes- ----Your above comment is ridiculous----providing a better future for their families so one can live in a safe neighborhood and drive a safe vehicle in the hopes to be able to provide the family with what they deserve and you call this selfish ---just proves my point about how immature you are. Not to mention the sexist comment; considering the intelligent women--- some of who make incredible sacrifices to become a dentist. You managed in one comment to set us back roughly 40 years. It's amazing that you admit those who don't know you see you as selfish. Hmmmmmmm wonder why. I'm now 100% sure --selfish isn't the only thing they see you as. Grow up

From a licensed dentist with a wife and kids.
Dr.B

 

[gumgardener2009]

Yikes- ----Your above comment is ridiculous----providing a better future for their families so one can live in a safe neighborhood and drive a safe vehicle in the hopes to be able to provide the family with what they deserve and you call this selfish ---just proves my point about how immature you are. Not to mention the sexist comment; considering the intelligent women--- some of who make incredible sacrifices to become a dentist. You managed in one comment to set us back roughly 40 years. It's amazing that you admit those who don't know you see you as selfish. Hmmmmmmm wonder why. I'm now 100% sure --selfish isn't the only thing they see you as. Grow up

From a licensed dentist with a wife and kids.
Dr.B

Reread my post! I'm talking while we are in dental school. Sure in the long run it looks like you're setting your family up nicely, but don't be so patronizing as to tell me these guys (and excuse me, women also are included) are not being selfish by not financially supporting their families and maybe barely emotionally supporting them for the 4 years of dental school. These students have to put in the same time commitment as all single-without-children students, ergo they don't have money, for at least 2 years they are at school a minimum of 9 hours a day and often 12, get home and have to crack the books immediately after dinner, go to bed late and start it all over again the next day. Then in the last 2 years if they want to help support the family they get a job in the evenings that takes away any free time they otherwise would have had to be with the family! Looks selfish to me, but also it's admirable that they have a goal and they do what they have to to reach it. Amazing more don't end in divorce. So once again reread the post. It says all dental students have to be selfish in order to get where we want to go! I don't think I'm picking on anybody.

 

[gumgardener2009]

Yikes- ----Your above comment is ridiculous----providing a better future for their families so one can live in a safe neighborhood and drive a safe vehicle in the hopes to be able to provide the family with what they deserve and you call this selfish ---just proves my point about how immature you are. Not to mention the sexist comment; considering the intelligent women--- some of who make incredible sacrifices to become a dentist. You managed in one comment to set us back roughly 40 years. It's amazing that you admit those who don't know you see you as selfish. Hmmmmmmm wonder why. I'm now 100% sure --selfish isn't the only thing they see you as. Grow up

From a licensed dentist with a wife and kids.
Dr.B

Dr. B takes a sentence that by itself looks inflammatory, but in context seems more reasonable!

Here's the actual quote: "Those who don't know me may accuse me of being selfish, but I guess we all have to be selfish to put in the effort to get through dental school. If I'm selfish what about the guys with wife and kids going through this hell we call dental school."

I'm sure I could find a majority of dental students who would have to agree with that statement within its context.

 

[UConn_SDM]

Here's the actual quote: "Those who don't know me may accuse me of being selfish, but I guess we all have to be selfish to put in the effort to get through dental school. If I'm selfish what about the guys with wife and kids going through this hell we call dental school."

I'm sure I could find a majority of dental students who would have to agree with that statement within its context.

I totally disagree with that statement. Maybe my classmates with children were just more talented than all those dental students who would agree with your statement. Most of my classmates with children spent more time at home than most working men or women.

For those people who are at school studying 12-14 hours a day I think you are confusing selfish with sacrifice!

Selfish |?selfi sh | adjective (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure : I joined them for selfish reasons.

Sacrifice :verb: give up (something important or valued) for the sake of other considerations

These are students who give up time at home to give a better life for their "other considerations" - their children and family.

 

[toofache32]

Also OMS is not as glamorous as y'all think. Surgeons don't make money on the operations done in the hospital, they make their money on doing lots of extractions.

I would agree with that.

 

[ItsGavinC]

On the contrary, I don't think it is impossible to change your mind and decide to specialize part way through dental school.

I agree, especially since part way through dental school is when clinical exposure begins for most of us. There's nothing like actually doing the procedures to really get one excited about the specialty.

 

[gumgardener2009]

I totally disagree with that statement. Maybe my classmates with children were just more talented than all those dental students who would agree with your statement. Most of my classmates with children spent more time at home than most working men or women.

For those people who are at school studying 12-14 hours a day I think you are confusing selfish with sacrifice!

Selfish |?selfi sh | adjective (of a person, action, or motive) lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure : I joined them for selfish reasons.

Sacrifice :verb: give up (something important or valued) for the sake of other considerations

These are students who give up time at home to give a better life for their "other considerations" - their children and family.

I was expecting the "selfish" vs. "sacrifice" argument. I think I can counter that. Why do so many men die soon after retiring? It's been argued that the males of our species define themselves by their careers. When the career is gone so is a big part of their "raison d'etre". Who are you really becoming a dentist for? It's a well-respected, well-paying career. The wife and kids probably wouldn't care if you were a high school teacher. Well respected, not so well paying.

 

[ISU_Steve]

I think we all know why a certain individual went into dental school.

Continuing with the idea of improving people's vocabularies (from www.m-w.com):

Moneygrubber
Main Entry: mon·ey-grub·ber
Pronunciation: 'm&-nE-"gr&-b&r
Function: noun
: a person bent on accumulating money
- mon·ey·grub·bing /-bi[ng]/ adjective or noun

Example: Some individuals become dentists simply because it suits their moneygrubbing ways.

 

[HITMAN]

Right on Yah-E! That's what I'm talking about. Set a goal. Go for it. No deceptions. No lying in the weeds. If you end up not reaching that goal, you have to answer to yourself.

However, if people want to consider their options, then make an informed decision, they have to answer to... you? Cut the bull.

Please, keep on spreading the word that perio is just "grad hygiene". It keeps the competition out.

The true reason for this thread is revealed. Clearly, gumgardener2009 is angry because he's a gunner who's just been ambushed by some new and unexpected competition. And make no mistake, he is a gunner, as evidenced by the amount of time he spends trying to peg his classmates' ambitions and motivations. Perhaps if he spent more time focusing on his work and less time worrying about his classmates (who clearly don't have the time to worry about what he does with his life) he wouldn't have to fear these unexpected surprises. How pathetic.

 

[ISU_Steve]

 

[Dr. Pedo]

However, if people want to consider their options, then make an informed decision, they have to answer to... you? Cut the bull.



The true reason for this thread is revealed. Clearly, gumgardener2009 is angry because he's a gunner who's just been ambushed by some new and unexpected competition. And make no mistake, he is a gunner, as evidenced by the amount of time he spends trying to peg his classmates' ambitions and motivations. Perhaps if he spent more time focusing on his work and less time worrying about his classmates (who clearly don't have the time to worry about what he does with his life) he wouldn't have to fear these unexpected surprises. How pathetic.

Hitman---Nicely put---gumgardener is....... well.....a "special" SDNer

Dr.B

 

[ISU_Steve]

Yup, "special", but only in the SPED sense.

 

[DcS]

Reread my post! I'm talking while we are in dental school. Sure in the long run it looks like you're setting your family up nicely, but don't be so patronizing as to tell me these guys (and excuse me, women also are included) are not being selfish by not financially supporting their families and maybe barely emotionally supporting them for the 4 years of dental school. These students have to put in the same time commitment as all single-without-children students, ergo they don't have money, for at least 2 years they are at school a minimum of 9 hours a day and often 12, get home and have to crack the books immediately after dinner, go to bed late and start it all over again the next day. Then in the last 2 years if they want to help support the family they get a job in the evenings that takes away any free time they otherwise would have had to be with the family! Looks selfish to me, but also it's admirable that they have a goal and they do what they have to to reach it. Amazing more don't end in divorce. So once again reread the post. It says all dental students have to be selfish in order to get where we want to go! I don't think I'm picking on anybody.

Wow, you're an idiot.

 

[DcS]

At NSU, we barely have anytime off of clinic and/or school, mainly just vacations. I had to apply for time off to be excused from classes and clinic to do externships. No freebees here like schools such as UNC where they have mandatory externship periods for their dental students.

I didn't think you were saying it in a negative connotation, but would like to clarify. At UNC, it's a "freebee" in a sense that we do get 2 months in the summer before 4th year for externships. However, it's not free in the sense that our clinical requirements are as tough if not tougher than most dental schools. It's balanced by the fact that we start treating patients in the summer of 1st year and start comprehensive care (all but endo/oral sx) our Fall in the 2nd year. For those considering UNC as a school, our rotation system is awesome and I think will be a big help once applying to specialty programs.

I'm on rotation now in the mountains of NC at a public health clinic. I see about 8 patients a day (almost a weeks worth at school), and actually get to do quadrant dentistry! Who would have thunk it. It's nice to spin my wheels, sit down from start to finish with my own assistant, write the chart and leave (while the assistant cleans up my mess ) I've shucked more teeth and done more operative in the past few weeks than I would do in a semester at school.

There is a 72 year old Oral Sx on staff. Before I leave he is gonna let me take out some impacted wizzies, from laying the flap, bone removal, section, elevation and suturing. Should be quite an adventure for a non-oral sx guy...but I must say there is just something satisfying about ripping teeth out of people!

 

[Yah-E]

I didn't think you were saying it in a negative connotation, but would like to clarify.

Negative? Oh, nah-ah, that's fcucking awesome if anything! I wish my school had a clinical curriculum where we are required to do externships. Two months in length! Amazing!

That's wonderful that you're getting such a great experience where you are.

 

[ISU_Steve]

Should be quite an adventure for a non-oral sx guy

LMAO I could have sworn the first time I looked at that that there was an "e" in there.

 

[toofache32]

LMAO I could have sworn the first time I looked at that that there was an "e" in there.

Now we know where your mind is.....right there with mine!

 

[gumgardener2009]

I think we all know why a certain individual went into dental school.

Continuing with the idea of improving people's vocabularies (from www.m-w.com):

Moneygrubber
Main Entry: mon·ey-grub·ber
Pronunciation: 'm&-nE-"gr&-b&r
Function: noun
: a person bent on accumulating money
- mon·ey·grub·bing /-bi[ng]/ adjective or noun

Example: Some individuals become dentists simply because it suits their moneygrubbing ways.

Not me bro! I was making a good living trading and could have chosen anything else. Of course, I'm not willing to be a crunchy granola living off the grid either, so the fact that dentists do okay for themselves wasn't a turnoff.
There are other ways to make money than dentistry without putting in 4+ years of school. In the last 10 years I could have made a ton more money than I ever will in dentistry by doing almost anything in real estate. Something I learned from my previous career is that money alone doesn't make it a good/fulfilling career.

 

[gumgardener2009]

Yup, "special", but only in the SPED sense.

Steve,
I'm sorry to see that the mindless sycophants of SDN have gotten you to toe the company line. Not long ago you came out with guns blazing on a guy who had a substance abuse problem and wanted to get back into dental school. I didn't think it was appropriate, but I supported you for having an opinion. If we all think like dcs and dr2b, we wouldn't need SDN. If you really want to be an OMS resident you need to keep a sharper pencil.