MD Should non-physicians use the Dr. title?

[genessis42]

I have started to notice this on some rotations. I know there are different providers such as NP, PA, CRNA, etc. that can have doctorate degrees, but wouldn't that be misleading? They're different from physicians, even in primary fields.

Am I out of line for thinking this as a student?

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[Goro]

DPMs, yes. The others, **** no. They wanna be called doctor, let 'en earn it.

 

[painballer27]

No, it's deceiving to patients. They aren't doctors and never will be no matter how many online degrees they earn. I'm also a student and I don't feel out of line saying this at all.

 

[deleted941485]

Boy oh boy can’t wait to see your world rocked once you hit the floors. Most mid levels are already doing this with impunity and if you speak up about it trust me you’ll be labeled and possibly fired. Most in house consult services are APN driven the MDs dont even bother to co-sign anymore. Inpatient medicine used to be a serious business now it’s an even bigger joke than outpatient medicine with the parade of alphabet soup degrees they give to mid levels.

 

[The kitchen sink]

Short answer: No

Long answer: See above post. It's an absolute s***show. Run far away from medicine. Become a malpractice lawyer. You'll thank me later.

 

[Moko]

Should they? Absolutely not. Will they? Absolutely. Their leadership is shameless but effective at lobbying. I suspect there will continue to be a gradual shift in their favor. The fact that even 'naturopaths' can call themselves "doctors" with their sham degrees is an extreme example of how far our profession has fallen. "But my other doctor said that..."

 

[genessis42]

I am starting to think that physicians do a bad job at lobbying when it comes to protecting their field.

 

[Goro]

The AOA is sure good at opening medical schools but protect the brand? Gawd!!!!

 

[OptionOffense]

HI sir I am Your DOctor of Philosophy. What brings you in today?

 

[sylvanthus]

The war is lost dudes, welcome your new midlevel, errr provider, errr doctor overlords. If you dont youll be labeled not a team player, unprofessional, etc etc etc.

 

[mrbreakfast]

I'm also a student and I don't feel out of line saying this at all.

While I applaud this attitude, please be very careful what you say and how you say things, particularly if it'll get back to the midlevel in question. It doesn't matter who's right, all that matters is the complaint that you "destroyed patient-provider rapport by questioning their qualifications in front of the patient," which, as a med student, will end up as a disciplinary mark on your record. The scoreboard will read the same when you are a resident or even an attending, too.

Welcome to the actual world of medicine. One of the most important survival tips is "you will lose any and every fight you pick with nurses."

 

[Ganon]

While I applaud this attitude, please be very careful what you say and how you say things, particularly if it'll get back to the midlevel in question. It doesn't matter who's right, all that matters is the complaint that you "destroyed patient-provider rapport by questioning their qualifications in front of the patient," which, as a med student, will end up as a disciplinary mark on your record. The scoreboard will read the same when you are a resident or even an attending, too.

Welcome to the actual world of medicine. One of the most important survival tips is "you will lose any and every fight you pick with nurses."

I am a nurse, though, so what will happen if I advocate for physician-led care?

-Ganon, MS4, RN, BSN, ADN, CCRN, DAW, ACLS, BLS

 

[Kardio]

Don’t forget that ‘provider’ is an insurance term that crept into the clinical enviornment.

 

[genessis42]

It is things like this that dissuade me from pursuing fields like Anesthesia. I'm not sure if even the primary care (inpatient, outpatient) work is safe anymore.

 

[gyngyn]

Our hospital policy does not permit the use of the title by anyone who is not a licensed physician or resident physician.

 

[genessis42]

So would you think the term "midlevel" is offensive? As a student, I don't want to get on anybody's bad side

 

[sylvanthus]

So would you think the term "midlevel" is offensive? As a student, I don't want to get on anybody's bad side

Dude midlevel is totallllllyy offensive. Nothing mid about their training! Lots have acls bls pals wtfbbq rotflmao or an online watered down “doctorate”.

Gotta call them advanced practice providers or physician associate cuz “assistant” is demeaning.

Welcome to the cluster(;:-.

 

[Redpancreas]

I have started to notice this on some rotations. I know there are different providers such as NP, PA, CRNA, etc. that can have doctorate degrees, but wouldn't that be misleading? They're different from physicians, even in primary fields.

Am I out of line for thinking this as a student?

Do we really need another thread on this? Yes, OP. There will be other fields looking to gain reputation with a doctorate title. It is not good form, but the problem is that medical education has not collectively spoken out against this so you are subject to the politics at your individual institution where some physicians may be in league with NPs/PAs, etc. because they need them. Heck, I know some places where attendings (i.e. sellouts) value PA/NPs more than residents because they can be trained, stay on the same rotation, and don't leave. One place you can give feedback about this is on your evaluations. Most schools have a spot where they ask whether a non-physician provider/medical student negatively affected your rotation. Type away there. That's your outlet for now.

Utilize the search function or browse Reddit (r/noctor, r/medicine) if you want to see this hashed out ad nauseum.

 

[Ashley_H92]

I rotated at a rehab hospital during graduate school and psychologists (PhD) were called doctor. I think that’s appropriate since they are providers and hold a doctoral degree.

 

[George Lincoln]

I have started to notice this on some rotations. I know there are different providers such as NP, PA, CRNA, etc. that can have doctorate degrees, but wouldn't that be misleading? They're different from physicians, even in primary fields.

Am I out of line for thinking this as a student?

First your a Physician not Doctor. Oh yea your not a health care provider either that’s where it all started thirty years ago. Correct English terminology should be taught and learned. This issue of who should be called Doctor came up with Dr Jill Biden. The press and public missed it because yea you guessed it they are not conversant in the English language as a result they got it wrong. So short answer you’re a Physician also OK to be called Doctor just like my PhD educactor’s in College were called Doctor. It’s a level of degree and respect.

 

[HopelessMS]

Correct English terminology should be taught and learned.

First your a Physician not Doctor.

Oh yea your not a health care provider either

Sorry couldn't help it.

 

[rtrue]

Our hospital policy does not permit the use of the title by anyone who is not a licensed physician or resident physician.

Does this mean a non-MD OMFS would be referred to as Mr/Ms? Ouch.

 

[Fano]

The snowflake mindset where everyone gets a trophy has its consequences.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I have started to notice this on some rotations. I know there are different providers such as NP, PA, CRNA, etc. that can have doctorate degrees, but wouldn't that be misleading? They're different from physicians, even in primary fields.

Am I out of line for thinking as a student?

Yes. You are out of line for thinking. Bad student.

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

In a perfectly regular/“normal” workplace training video scenario*, I would ask, “why are you lying to the patient?” directly to the “mid level” you’re referring to. If they didn’t stop it, I’d take it up with someone above both of us b/c regardless, this is a liability issue.

But I also understand if it doesn’t translate well due to lobbying and a technicality of “doctorate” prevented any accountability taking place. It really is that ridiculous.

*Note: facts somehow get twisted in this scenario

 

[mrbreakfast]

In a perfectly regular/“normal” workplace training video scenario*, I would ask, “why are you lying to the patient?” directly to the “mid level” you’re referring to. If they didn’t stop it, I’d take it up with someone above both of us b/c regardless, this is a liability issue.

Again, this thinking is "correct" but not "right." My advice to med students is to choose your fights very carefully. You have little power and everything to lose; the person you're going up against has more power than you think, and absolutely nothing to lose.

 

[Lawpy]

If you have the great misfortune to attend a rotation site where your preceptor is a midlevel, you likely have no choice but to address them as Dr.

 

[Lawpy]

Again, this thinking is "correct" but not "right." My advice to med students is to choose your fights very carefully. You have little power and everything to lose; the person you're going up against has more power than you think, and absolutely nothing to lose.

Midlevels can have power over even attendings because of how broken and disastrous the US healthcare system is. That is the great tragedy of medicine

 

[DarkHorizon]

Meh, it’s an ego trip for them. They know what they can and can’t do. When stuff hits the fan, they always call us. Patients know who the boss is. I could care less honestly. They can’t do what I do, doesn’t matter what they call themselves.

 

[DarkHorizon]

If you have the great misfortune to attend a rotation site where your preceptor is a midlevel, you likely have no choice but to address them as Dr.

That’s an epic fail on your medical schools part. But even so, just play nice. These so called Drs can only flex on you when you’re a student or a resident. Once you’re an attending, they know their place. They are not even allowed to make minor decisions on surgical services. They are perpetual interns/pgy2s. Let them feel good about that “Dr.” Title. That’s all they have to hang on to. A physician has nothing to prove.

Only exception is CRNAs. They have some delusions about their training and their status in the pecking order. Even then, most of them know their place.

 

[Dr Meow]

I have started to notice this on some rotations. I know there are different providers such as NP, PA, CRNA, etc. that can have doctorate degrees, but wouldn't that be misleading? They're different from physicians, even in primary fields.

Am I out of line for thinking this as a student?

One word: DNP

 

[sylvanthus]

Again, this thinking is "correct" but not "right." My advice to med students is to choose your fights very carefully. You have little power and everything to lose; the person you're going up against has more power than you think, and absolutely nothing to lose.

As a med student, id not do a damn thing. No offense to all the med students out there, but the powers that be do not care what you think. If it makes you feel better, they dont care what I think either.

 

[genessis42]

If you have the great misfortune to attend a rotation site where your preceptor is a midlevel, you likely have no choice but to address them as Dr.

Hopefully not. My school only allows rotations supervised by MD/DOs.

 

[sylvanthus]

Hopefully not. My school only allows rotations supervised by MD/DOs.

I win, I had an RN as my preceptor. Thankfully I had zero interest in surgery, but still…..an RN.

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

Again, this thinking is "correct" but not "right." My advice to med students is to choose your fights very carefully. You have little power and everything to lose; the person you're going up against has more power than you think, and absolutely nothing to lose.

Appreciate the response, though you don’t have to tell me twice. Seen power struggles in quite a few places, across other industries I’ve worked in.

That’s why sadly my initial post was mostly in jest, not that it doesn’t pose anything disconcerting. Regardless, we all make it through the day somehow, even bosses no matter what their title.

The last thing I’d want to do is make any job insufferable over an ego trip, since it can blow up both ways (Ofc, everyone wants to keep their job too!). It is definitely something I’ll keep in mind, but I don’t suspect it happens at every, single institution to have “mid levels” have power this way.

On a different note, my mother did nursing & both my sisters are nurses. So, in reality, I look at things a little differently than pre-meds w/o family who work in clinical settings already. But I don’t expect an RN or NP who has authority over me to automatically know that - unless I manage to have a conversation where it’s relevant. 😅

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

That’s an epic fail on your medical schools part. But even so, just play nice. These so called Drs can only flex on you when you’re a student or a resident. Once you’re an attending, they know their place. They are not even allowed to make minor decisions on surgical services. They are perpetual interns/pgy2s. Let them feel good about that “Dr.” Title. That’s all they have to hang on to. A physician has nothing to prove.

Only exception is CRNAs. They have some delusions about their training and their status in the pecking order. Even then, most of them know their place.

My thing is: as long as it’s not actually hurting the way anybody practices or gets treated, or disrupts what I’m there to do, then jokes aside, I could care less.

I’m there to get stuff done and do it right. But life is too short for codswallop like that… and it’s too short to not find opportunities for saying, “codswallop”.

I personally don’t know of any CRNAS who are like that, but thoughts and prayers: they’ll figure it out! Sorry if that’s what you deal with now.