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oliverpaul20

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I got a 514 - 130/125/131/128 and was wondering if I should retake since my CARS is so low. Is it worth risking this to improve CARS if it's possible my score could be lower than 514 overall the second time? I've heard CARS is very important.

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Unless you are confident that you will score 512+, I would not risk it. 125 is roughly an 8, which is not bad. It also depends on the school you're applying to.
 
You need to get school specific. There are some schools who will reject your app because of a 125 in any one section. Almost all of them have hard cutoffs for interviews, but most of them have been around 6 or 7 in the past, which would lead us to believe a 125 would make it. In any event, one cannot accurately say anything nationwide, because every school is different. Call the schools to which you will likely apply and find out their minimum cutoffs if any. Overall, 514 is a solid score for MCAT-2015 first round and if all else is in order with your app (often it isn't or students don't know what the other factors need to look like, so be careful with research, extracurriculars, patient exposure and personal statement--they are all important and must be just right)--but assuming these are all good, all of my students with that range of score are already accepted. None had a 125 in CAR, but one had a 126. If you decide you want to retake, I would only discourage you if you aren't willing to put MORE effort in this time prepping that last time. If you dramatically increase the quality of your prepping behavior on a retake you will go up. If you just want to try to go up in CAR, focus on that alone (not all of the sections) and hope to jump into a retake with less effort expended than last time...I would predict a high risk of a negative outcome (same or lower score).
 
You need to get school specific. There are some schools who will reject your app because of a 125 in any one section. Almost all of them have hard cutoffs for interviews, but most of them have been around 6 or 7 in the past, which would lead us to believe a 125 would make it. In any event, one cannot accurately say anything nationwide, because every school is different. Call the schools to which you will likely apply and find out their minimum cutoffs if any. Overall, 514 is a solid score for MCAT-2015 first round and if all else is in order with your app (often it isn't or students don't know what the other factors need to look like, so be careful with research, extracurriculars, patient exposure and personal statement--they are all important and must be just right)--but assuming these are all good, all of my students with that range of score are already accepted. None had a 125 in CAR, but one had a 126. If you decide you want to retake, I would only discourage you if you aren't willing to put MORE effort in this time prepping that last time. If you dramatically increase the quality of your prepping behavior on a retake you will go up. If you just want to try to go up in CAR, focus on that alone (not all of the sections) and hope to jump into a retake with less effort expended than last time...I would predict a high risk of a negative outcome (same or lower score).

Source on the bold?

I know amongst other ADCOMs, gyngyn has stated in the past he doesn't know of a single school that screens out a 9 subsection. ADCOMs I know personally have confirmed the same. HIs and their rule basically has been if you have a solid score(which a 514 clearly is) there are a large number of lower tier schools where as long as all sections are 8 or higher can still make you plenty competitive. A 125 is between an 8 and 9 on the old scale. There are also PLENTY of people accepted to lower tier schools every single year with an 8 in verbal. Also schools are very unlikely to give hard specifics about what their cut offs are(they dont even disclose info usually about whether they average multiple MCAT scores). Much of this is because they want to leave the possibility open for exceptional applicants who might have one low score or a flaw. So calling won't serve much purpose if any at all.

The types of schools that might discriminate against a 125 specifically aren't the types of schools someone with a 514---33 on the old scale(absolute top tier schools), should be applying to.

OP I really would not suggest retaking the MCAT at all. Looking at what ADCOMs say on this forum and others I've talked to, there are definitely a fair share of ADCOMs who aren't big fans of people retaking perfectly fine scores and will consider it questionable judgment on the part of the applicant. This is one of them. And on top of that, statistically only about 25-30% of people who retake 33's get 3+ points better on the retake(for you 518) which is what you need to justify any retake. Furthermore, this is exactly the type of score that would appear hardest to see significant change in; one that is brought down by a lower CARs score, a section notoriously difficult to improve. If you consider all this, from my perspective, it just makes zero sense to retake. The odds of you retaking and doing the same or worse in CARs which really would hurt your app on top of all this are also not insignificant at all.

So rather than retaking I would look at it as you are very fortunate; your CARs score is just good enough and your overall score is strong. You are in the perfect spot to be satisfied because any lower in CARs might cause issues and that is a section where improvement is very difficult to come by. Leave what doesn't need to be changed unchanged.
 
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It's not hard to find sources for minimum cut-off scores. If a school has one it is usually on their website somewhere. Google "minimum mcat section score [school name]" and you'll find them if made public. A few more can be had via a phone call, but if they'll tell you on the phone its usually published somewhere. University of Utah, for example, where many of my students apply, has always had a published minimum of 7 in each section, which is now 123, just helped a girl yesterday with an app to UofT, which has a 125 min published on their website, but also was working on a couple of apps to UW today and they clearly state they have no hard cutoff. In any event, my comment wasn't actually about a "hard cutoff" at 125--I was speaking more to the fact that I know an "8" in a section is going to cause many adcoms concern.

I agree with Grapes wholeheartedly that the more competitive the school the more concerned they'll be with a 125, lesser schools and DOs might not bat an eye--Caribbean schools might have a party! Thus why I suggest all applicants get more school specific. There is NOTHING we have found more helpful to an applicant than to actually decide by name early on the schools to which they will apply (some dream, some safety if you wish) and then actually do the phone calls and research necessary to identify everything you can about those schools' policies and previous admissions behaviors. This will save you money, time and frustration AND it will increase your chances of acceptance. Also pay attention to those GPA and MCAT grids and "accepted" charts. Those are gold. If the lowest accepted score over the last few years is "x" and you're at that or below, you have to be realistic that your chances of sneaking in at that bottom end are very slim. That gives you a de facto cut-off even if they don't publish one (don't forget the "lowest score in" most likely didn't have an average app in other areas; he/she may have had some really cool stuff and that is WHY they got in with that low score).

I would not unilaterally discourage retakes for a student in this score range as unequivocally as Grapes of Wrath has. While there are definite risks involved, the specifics of the student and their situation is what should make the determination. One student I am close to is at Stanford right now after getting a 41 on a retake of a 33, another is at a Duke with a 40 on a retake of a 34. Highly unlikely they would be where they are with their original scores. The AAMC stats try to scare everyone out of ever retaking--and I would be scared too--they look bad a first glance. But realize that this is EVERYONE who retakes...and the overwhelming majority of students I come across outside of Altius or my personal students who are retaking an exam are usually doing so under very unwise circumstances--very little study, same approach and dedication level as before, VERY OFTEN a quick turnaround between first exam and retake, focusing ONLY on their lowest section while assuming the sections they are happy with will stay the same (always, always seems to bite students in the behind).
 
Let's go through this in a couple points
1) Yes, it is not easy at all to find schools giving out information publically about their MCAT cut offs. U of Utah is a relative exception and even that isn't some ground breaking statement(almost nobody with a sub section 7 MCAT score is getting into medical school). Having gone through the process of calling many schools about such policies and talking to ADCOMs I know personally about their thoughts and how their schools view MCAT's and scores here are some thoughts I have collected and gathered from all this.

a) Schools don't like making public cut offs because they don't want to exclude the rare applicant who might be worth consideration below a cut off consideration(particularly URMs). Emory is an example of a school that cites a 27 is a minimum: they can do this because there simply aren't going to be worthwhile candidates to a school like that with a 26 or lower MCAT. This again though is more an exception than a rule.
b) These things are incredibly subjective as well. ADCOMs within a school themselves have different views on these things. A good example is how schools view multiple MCAT scores. Many schools average. Many don't have any official policy. Many schools that don't say they average have individual ADCOMs that will in their evaluation. But by and large a school will account for the fact the MCAT had to be taken twice by an applicant. How they will account for that will vary tremendously and honestly is hard to predict even for ADCOMs. Having called schools as an example asking how they view multiple MCATs: I can tell you calling the same school more than once I have gotten completely different answers about whether or not they will average the scores. This kind of highlights how much of a subjective process it is and why you don't want to open yourself up to idiosyncratic interpretation with multiple MCAT scores if you don't have to.
c) what is most likely is schools will use the highest MCAT score for their class profile stats. This is part of why you will see so many schools give lip service of "We'll use the highest score" when people on here call about how schools interpret multiple MCAT scores. They have every incentive to tell you they'll use the latest one; its in their best interests for many reasons.
d) 10th/90th percentile stats in MSAR are very valuable like you said yes. Phone calls to schools? They can vary in their value tremendously and should hardly be taken as gospel. Like I said, call the same school twice, you can get very different answers on the same question.
e) Having talked to ADCOMs I know personally and those on this site I really haven't gotten the idea of an 8 subsection being any real red flag at lower tier schools at all. In fact, 8 is often what I see as the cut off for acceptable from those I've talked to at lower tiers. Are there ADCOMs who will have problems with a 8? Yes they exist. But I'd be very hesitant to tell someone with a 8 who has a 31+ type score retake because of the 8. Not only is the 8 likely to be fine at many schools, you run the risk of doing worse which will really hurt your app. I am however willing to buy the idea an 8 science section from what I've gathered is more hazardous than that in verbal. There are schools like G'town that explicitly will state an 8 science score is not competitive while for verbal they will only say that with a 7 or lower.

As for a 33 being too high for a retake I'll give a couple things to consider
a) There is an ADCOM gyngyn on here who will tell people those who retake these 35+ type high scores automatically will get rejected at his school. I'd imagine his is hardly the only school with such a policy. SO yes, that should tell you right off the bat retaking high scores is often seen as a red flag that can in some schools be lethal.
b) As for the idea of retaking a 33 and scoring much higher always being beneficial I think this is worth reading.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...advice-to-assess-app-weakness-thanks.1074437/
Basically you have an applicant who didn't get into med school with a 42 MCAT score. They had previously retaken a 33. Pay close atetntion to all of Law2Doc's post in this thread who is an ADCOM. Basically his point is retaking the 33 was a mistake. The top schools can dismiss a high score very often if it is taken more than once. The lower tier schools are going to question the judgment of someone retaking a 33. Read his words exactly but it telegraphs things to schools you don't want in many cases retaking a 33 like this. In many ways retaking a 33 to a 42 put this applicant in a bind. The top schools can dismiss a 42 when it comes after multiple attempts. The lower tier schools are going to look at this as questionable decision making and as this applicant as low yield. Not an ideal situation and it led to the point this applicant didn't get in anywhere with one of the highest scores in the country. In many ways, going from a 33 to a 40+(very very rare and difficult) opens up doors at top schools potentially. But it can also close many at lower tiers. Whether the overall effect is to the applicants benefit will vary. And this is with a perfect retake and a best case scenario retake attempt.
c) MCAT retake statistics get published on the AAMC. I don't have the link on me but what you are talking about of going to a 33 to a 39+ is a very very rare thing. Happens 2-3% of the time. Nobody should bank on making that kind of improvement or assuming they will. 70-75% of people who retake a 33+ don't improve by 3+ points which is the bare minimum for what will constitute a worthwhile retake. We shouldn't base anything off outliers.

So bottom line, you have to consider the circumstances behind an MCAT retake very very carefully. Getting the same score or worse is a negative. Everybody should go into taking the MCAT only planning to take it once. The more you take it, the more you complicate things and open yourself up to risks.
 
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I looked at the original post linked above for the "unaccepted 42" and I thought immediately that his scenario would scream MANY things to me if I were reviewing his app, and him having retaken a 33 to a 42 was NOT one of them. I would be concerned about his freshman GPA, every adcom reader will be, but they usually feel lenient if they see upward progress. In this case, it is the worst possible scenario...some upward progress and then a CRASH junior year, then back up. I couldn't quite tell from an initial read, but is sounds like the senior year may have been more humanities vs. science prereqs? That is important too, as adcoms look very precisely at WHICH classes you struggle in, not just the gpa. Overall, this is just the IDEAL scary-scary-scary situation for an adcom. I would have wondered about essays, secondaries and interview skills, which often are the problem with high-scoring non-accepted applicants, but NO NEED! Ability to handle med school curriculum and low risk of attrition are PRIMARY concerns of adcoms and this applicant is in a very bad spot in that regard. Bottom Line: This sad story is NOT a good case to illustrate the impact of retakes, too many other CLEARLY CONFOUNDING factors going on. (PS-The choice of schools in his list of 30 was very unwise as well, one of the most foolish I've seen. All very competitive schools plus ones whose ADCOMs will absolutely say among themselves about 5 seconds after opening review of his file "What's the chance this guy is coming to our school?...Not much...closed file).

Readers please take home this point: DO NOT abide by one-size-fits-all "rules" you get from posters on SDN. Get both school and applicant specific.

Down the same line, DO NOT make a decision about retaking based only or mostly on those "scary" AAMC retake stats. Those apply to you if you are going to retake under the foolish conditions/behaviors I outlined previously in this thread. If you are going to mount a substantially improved MCAT preparation campaign with improved behaviors and appropriate timing your likelihood of success does not mirror those statistics. If you plan to do a fast/same behavior retake, then DO NOT RETAKE--just don't do it. I kind of assume that you aren't going to be stupid about your retake planning and preparation. On a positive note, most retakers ARE unwise in their approach, so that gives you an advantage if you aren't. This again emphasizes the reason I argue widely for case-specific thinking rather than universal-rule-of-thumb thinking. If, in your case, a retake means "x" approach, it could be a terrible idea. However, if you are going to retake and you use "y" approach it could be the smartest thing you'll ever do--and maybe the only reason you end up being a doctor.

As for GofW's idea that retaking a 33 and getting a much higher score could be a bad thing...I would have to strongly disagree and assert that this may be advice that could lead one to make application mistakes. I say that knowing full well that some ADCOMS have said it (apparently gyngyn included if GoW is correct). Buyer beware, we all--especially applicants--ultimately have to become educated and decide for ourselves. I am not an ADCOM myself, but I review apps regularly as a member of our admissions team which includes 4 former and 1 current ADCOM. I have chewed the admissions fat with these ADCOMS and a number of others around the country too many times to count. I occasionally hear from forums such as this, or from some premed advisers, or applicants themselves, the idea that "retaking" the MCAT inherently looks bad [We should move to the side for the moment that which is obvious--the fact that all else being exactly equal, a 40 after one attempt is better than a 40 after two attempts]. I hear much, much less of this sentiment (but not zero) from actual ADCOMS. I am convinced that most adcoms have somewhere between very minor negative feelings" to "no negative feelings" about retakes (particularly if there are only two total retakes and the second one is noticeably higher). I also have worked 1-on-1 with a large number of students on retakes, who have almost universally increased significantly, and there has never been a student of mine with a successful retake who did not get accepted. Maybe that's why I am spending WAY MORE time on this little forum post than I have time for, or which is my norm to do...I almost cannot stomach seeing people being discouraged from improving their score or their application lot when I've personally seen so many success stories. The one caveat there might be that we also look at their whole application, so we make sure the essay, activities list, etc. are in order. It is VERY common that when a student scored poorly or average the first time their first app was CRAP as well, so they have multiple improvements working together to get the in the second time. Improving MCAT score alone would surely be less effective, but no one should ever reapply changing only one part of their app (though many do). If retakes were even remotely as "deadly" as GoW suggests, I would have suspected at least a few of my retake students getting rejected because adcoms were "questioning their decision making because they retook that 33 and got a 38" (I feel shady just typing that phrase). Interestingly, I have had many students report interviewers asking them in a PURELY positive fashion something like: "Wow, that was an impressive improvement, what did you do to make that happen?"

Finally, don't forget to consider the admissions process itself AT EACH SCHOOL. Anything you can figure out about that process is gold and should influence many aspects of your approach. For example, often a school's process results in either the highest/latest MCAT score being entered into the calculation (more common) or the average MCAT score (less common) and then subsequent interviewers and reviewers being blinded to MCAT and/or GPA (usually both if they use this process as they are following a guiding principle that non-number aspects of the admissions decision should not be influenced by numbers). Other schools translate GPA/MCAT into a point value and reviewers know the point total for the app, but not the MCAT explicitly. Other schools keep both scores front and center right to the very end. And so...once again...be as school specific as possible. The real answers to questions like these may be 100% different based on the school. For example, take the "not accepted with a 42" example GofW linked to above. How his app was being viewed was very different between the schools at the top of his list vs. those at the bottom. They both ended up rejecting him, but for totally different reasons.

I hope this discussion helps someone. I'm pretty sure GoW will immediately respond and disagree with me, but I think this is all I will have to share for this go around. As an aside, I am kind of growing fond of him (Grapes) because he is more thoughtful and thorough in his responses than most. I don't have to agree with someone to appreciate their obvious concern for helping other students. Good luck to all in your applications!
 
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I'll let you go without debating the merits of retaking anymore. We disagree, but I don't want to keep you dragged into this discussion. If anything this shows how idiosyncratic the process is and highlights how different ADCOMs can view things rather differently.

I'll just add in case you are interested that person who got rejected with a 42 ended up reapplying the year after and getting 3 MD acceptances at Ohio State, U of Illinois and Iowa. They basically didn't change anything about their app. It's also worth noting all their II's they got the following year were at medium and higher end schools: Case Western, Cleveland Clinic, UC Davis, Duke, U of Michigan and Saint Louis in addition to those 3 schools they got into. Note they were in a very strange predicaments. Lower tier schools are going to throw out this app that has a 42 MCAT score in it. Top tiers can ignore someone who took 3 attempts to get a 42 and has a 3.5 GPA. So there are a ton of schools that person shouldn't be applying to and honestly not that many they should. It was a tough spot, glad it worked out for them.
 
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