Reporting Step

[deleted1148566]

I passed level 1 but failed Step 1. The advice I have gotten is to not report it, but my school says I will need to discuss it in my personal statement. Not sure what to do

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Don’t report it. It didn’t happen. “Step what?”

 

[Captain_Falcon]

I passed level 1 but failed Step 1. The advice I have gotten is to not report it, but my school says I will need to discuss it in my personal statement. Not sure what to do

If you don’t report Step then you don’t have to discuss it in your personal statement. Now if asked about “why didn’t you take step?” In an interview then it becomes dicey because you either lie and say you didn’t take it or admit you took it but failed. I think the odds of that question during an interview are low tho

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

When I was on interview council for a year, back in my residency days I can say at least most of the attendings never asked a candidate why they didn't take step 1. But I can also say that most MD attendings didn't really understand how the process worked for DO students, lol. But that is a good point, because suppose you get a DO resident who is interviewing you, and maybe he asks about it, lying can always come back to haunt you. That situation doesnt seem like a common situation, and I doubt that would happen at most interviews, so likely worst case scenario is that it would end up ruining the chances of where it was asked and probably limited to that. Whereas having too many red flags would prevent interviews regardless.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You should check with your school whether they will report it in your MSPE.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Don’t report it. It didn’t happen. “Step what?”

While I totally get this advice, it's not without risk. If you take this route, you have to hope no one ever finds out. And to be perfectly fair, I'm not sure how they would, but the downside is the risk is pretty extreme if caught.

The match agreement says:

"Applicants who submit incomplete, misleading, false, or plagiarized information may be deemed to have violated this Agreement. The omission of any information pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant may be deemed a violation of this Agreement. The applicant is responsible for disclosing any information regarding, among other things, the ability to satisfy program requirements"

So it absolutely could be construed as a match violation to intentionally withhold scores and could lead to termination and being banned from future match participation. So this strategy can be risky though to be fair, it's one that's hard to get caught doing.

 

[deleted1148566]

While I totally get this advice, it's not without risk. If you take this route, you have to hope no one ever finds out. And to be perfectly fair, I'm not sure how they would, but the downside is the risk is pretty extreme if caught.

The match agreement says:

"Applicants who submit incomplete, misleading, false, or plagiarized information may be deemed to have violated this Agreement. The omission of any information pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant may be deemed a violation of this Agreement. The applicant is responsible for disclosing any information regarding, among other things, the ability to satisfy program requirements"

So it absolutely could be construed as a match violation to intentionally withhold scores and could lead to termination and being banned from future match participation. So this strategy can be risky though to be fair, it's one that's hard to get caught doing.

ERAS says it's optional to release step scores. Has anyone even ever been reprimanded for such a thing?

 

[Ho0v-man]

While I totally get this advice, it's not without risk. If you take this route, you have to hope no one ever finds out. And to be perfectly fair, I'm not sure how they would, but the downside is the risk is pretty extreme if caught.

The match agreement says:

"Applicants who submit incomplete, misleading, false, or plagiarized information may be deemed to have violated this Agreement. The omission of any information pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant may be deemed a violation of this Agreement. The applicant is responsible for disclosing any information regarding, among other things, the ability to satisfy program requirements"

So it absolutely could be construed as a match violation to intentionally withhold scores and could lead to termination and being banned from future match participation. So this strategy can be risky though to be fair, it's one that's hard to get caught doing.

Interesting take on that interpretation. But DOs aren’t required to take USMLE exams and residencies are supposedly required to accept COMLEX.

Since this isn’t a requirement, OP has done the things required to progress through medical school and apply to residency. They attempted to do something else that is completely optional to help their app but it didn’t pan out. If I submitted an abstract to a journal or a poster to a conference and got rejected, I wouldn’t put it on my app.

Edit: although it does feel somewhat like a slippery slope. But until there’s specific precedent, I don’t see how not succeeding at an optional exam is a match violation.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

ERAS says it's optional to release step scores. Has anyone even ever been reprimanded for such a thing?

Im not disagreeing, but where did you find that info? Ive never seen anything of that nature but then again I cant view eras from the student end.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Interesting take on that interpretation. But DOs aren’t required to take USMLE exams and residencies are supposedly required to accept COMLEX.

Since this isn’t a requirement, OP has done the things required to progress through medical school and apply to residency. They attempted to do something else that is completely optional to help their app but it didn’t pan out. If I submitted an abstract to a journal or a poster to a conference and got rejected, I wouldn’t put it on my app.

Edit: although it does feel somewhat like a slippery slope. But until there’s specific precedent, I don’t see how not succeeding at an optional exam is a match violation.

Right but the match agreement doesnt say that you can omit something that is taken optionally. It says you must not intentionally omit pertinent info, and Id say not disclosing a step failure is pertinent info. Some states even require you reporting failures to the state board of medicine for a license. Its pertinent, whether required or not. I’m not telling anyone what to do in the situation, I’m just stating that the way the match agreement is worded, this could be a problem. Gotta weigh the risks vs benefit.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

As for the question of has someone ever been fired for an omission, I don’t know how anyone would really know that. I do know of one student who contacted me for advice who was fired for omitting a criminal offense that came up on background check. So it can happen, but I’ve never been told about a case where this is happened regarding not submitting step scores. So take that information for what it’s worth.

I can tell you that if this happened to me as a Program Director, I probably wouldn’t care. But I also interview people with step failures and complex failures, as well as people that only take comlex. Some programs adamantly do not, so they would care more.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Right but the match agreement doesnt say that you can omit something that is taken optionally. It says you must not intentionally omit pertinent info, and Id say not disclosing a step failure is pertinent info. Some states even require you reporting failures to the state board of medicine for a license. Its pertinent, whether required or not. I’m not telling anyone what to do in the situation, I’m just stating that the way the match agreement is worded, this could be a problem. Gotta weigh the risks vs benefit.

I’m not sure this applies to DOs pursuing licensure through the comlex pathway. And I’m not saying this to be argumentative. I genuinely don’t know.

 

[deleted1148566]

Im not disagreeing, but where did you find that info? Ive never seen anything of that nature but then again I cant view eras from the student end.

emailed ERAS and was told its not required to report STEP for DOs

 

[KirksvilleKrunk]

Absolutely do not report it, these psych people are very low pressure and are just looking for someone who is a good fit for the specialty. Another example of the poor advising at DO schools....

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Right but the match agreement doesnt say that you can omit something that is taken optionally. It says you must not intentionally omit pertinent info, and Id say not disclosing a step failure is pertinent info. Some states even require you reporting failures to the state board of medicine for a license. Its pertinent, whether required or not. I’m not telling anyone what to do in the situation, I’m just stating that the way the match agreement is worded, this could be a problem. Gotta weigh the risks vs benefit.

A situation like this would probably end up in a legal mess where the person would say that they didn't require disclosure and took it optionally, while the other party would quote what you said. Then it would be up to a judge to determine where things fall. One judge can say "you can't make something option and still required" while another will say "you were obviously omitting information to your benefit." Furthermore, this would only serve in an extremely rare circumstance where the only reason they fire you is because of the omitting step score because most likely a judge would say "you're quoting this now as an excuse for your retaliatory action." In the real world, no PD would try to ever fire a good resident over something like this once they are there. Going without a resident would create problems for the program. On the other hand, no smart person would go around telling people they took step if they failed it AND didn't disclose it

I agree that it is up to personal choice. Personally, I think there's enough wiggle-room to argue that you do NOT have to disclose. You just need to make sure your MSPE or letters of recommendation do not disclose the failure. There's also no requirement of putting it in your personal statement

As a side-note, I didn't disclose my USMLE for fellowship because I didn't want to pay extra $70, yet I did score better as a percentile on step 1 than comlex 1

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Yeah its all a huge gray area. The hard part is, its a match rule, not an eras rule, and too broad, which would lend it to legal challenge Id imagine as someone mentioned above. I still see many DO students submit their STEP failures, so the advice from schools is really all over the place. Would be nice if the NRMP actually was clear and weighed in on this.

 

[deleted1148566]

Yeah its all a huge gray area. The hard part is, its a match rule, not an eras rule, and too broad, which would lend it to legal challenge Id imagine as someone mentioned above. I still see many DO students submit their STEP failures, so the advice from schools is really all over the place. Would be nice if the NRMP actually was clear and weighed in on this.

What would you recommend to someone who is applying psych with a step failure? Would it just be best to report it without trying to take it again?

 

[deleted1148566]

Absolutely do not report it, these psych people are very low pressure and are just looking for someone who is a good fit for the specialty. Another example of the poor advising at DO schools....

But with risk of a match violation, it is not really bad advice

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I wrote to the NRMP directly to ask them specifically this question, asking if reporting a non-mandatory exam (Step) for DOs is required if a DO takes it, if withholding the score would be a violation and if that's ever actually been investigated as a violation for doing so. I'll circle back if they get back to me or provide any concrete answers.

 

[mbdriver]

I’m not sure this applies to DOs pursuing licensure through the comlex pathway. And I’m not saying this to be argumentative. I genuinely don’t know.

The licensure rule in Texas has a requirement that all stages of exams must be passed within three attempts (i.e., Level 1 must be passed within three attempts, Level 2 within three attempts, etc.). However, it further states that "Attempts at a comparable part of a different type of examination shall be counted against the three attempt limit." (Texas Administrative Code). As far as I'm aware, this means that applicants for licensure in Texas must report all attempts - which would include COMLEX and USMLE for DOs who took both.

 

[mbdriver]

I wrote to the NRMP directly to ask them specifically this question, asking if reporting a non-mandatory exam (Step) for DOs is required if a DO takes it, if withholding the score would be a violation and if that's ever actually been investigated as a violation for doing so. I'll circle back if they get back to me or provide any concrete answers.

There's a discrepancy between NRMP and ERAS on this. ERAS does not require DO applicants to disclose Step scores. They take the view that as DOs are not required to take the exam, they are therefore not required to disclose the score. NRMP, however, as you have pointed out, requires disclosure of all pertinent information. But, as they don't control the application system, they cannot make it mandatory for DOs to disclose Step scores in the application, but they could potentially enforce a Match violation based on non-disclosure. This is an anomaly that ERAS could change at any time, so it's not something that could necessarily be banked upon to remain unchanged long-term.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

There's a discrepancy between NRMP and ERAS on this. ERAS does not require DO applicants to disclose Step scores. They take the view that as DOs are not required to take the exam, they are therefore not required to disclose the score. NRMP, however, as you have pointed out, requires disclosure of all pertinent information. But, as they don't control the application system, they cannot make it mandatory for DOs to disclose Step scores in the application, but they could potentially enforce a Match violation based on non-disclosure. This is an anomaly that ERAS could change at any time, so it's not something that could necessarily be banked upon to remain unchanged long-term.

Right, but they control the match, its ultimately the NRMP's rules you must follow bc violating the NRMPs rules allows programs to terminate you without allowing you to start and banning you from future matches. So even if its optional in ERAS, it's still a match violation by the letter of the law under NRMP and those are the more important rules to follow.

Still waiting to hear back from the NRMP on this to see if they'll tell me if this has ever actually been enforced. There's like 150+ investigated match violations a year according to some sources I've seen, so I have to think they've investigated this before.

 

[mbdriver]

Right, but they control the match, its ultimately the NRMP's rules you must follow bc violating the NRMPs rules allows programs to terminate you without allowing you to start and banning you from future matches. So even if its optional in ERAS, it's still a match violation by the letter of the law under NRMP and those are the more important rules to follow.

Still waiting to hear back from the NRMP on this to see if they'll tell me if this has ever actually been enforced. There's like 150+ investigated match violations a year according to some sources I've seen, so I have to think they've investigated this before.

Agreed 100%. However, I think anyone facing a Match violation charge could use the fact the ERAS does not require them to disclose the score as a defense of sorts. They could argue that if this truly were pertinent information, then it would be mandatory to include it in the application. I think there could also be an appeal to whether the information was pertinent on the grounds of the actual purpose of the exams. The applicant could argue that, as these exams are licensure exams, the only real pertinent question should be, 'Does the applicant have a pathway to licensure?' In doing so, they would have a lot of literature and opinion pieces to back up the argument that these exams should not be used as a residency selection criterion, but only as a process towards gaining a license.

I don't know if any of these arguments would be successful, but I could see them being made.

 

[ChicagoBear]

The licensure rule in Texas has a requirement that all stages of exams must be passed within three attempts (i.e., Level 1 must be passed within three attempts, Level 2 within three attempts, etc.). However, it further states that "Attempts at a comparable part of a different type of examination shall be counted against the three attempt limit." (Texas Administrative Code). As far as I'm aware, this means that applicants for licensure in Texas must report all attempts - which would include COMLEX and USMLE for DOs who took both.

Add Illinois to the list of states that require the disclosure of "All USMLE and/or COMLEX attempts" on the application for a medical license or training permit. There is only one medical board in Illinois and only one Physician and Surgeon license that both MDs and DOs receive.

 

[Starbuxian]

The licensure rule in Texas has a requirement that all stages of exams must be passed within three attempts (i.e., Level 1 must be passed within three attempts, Level 2 within three attempts, etc.). However, it further states that "Attempts at a comparable part of a different type of examination shall be counted against the three attempt limit." (Texas Administrative Code). As far as I'm aware, this means that applicants for licensure in Texas must report all attempts - which would include COMLEX and USMLE for DOs who took both.

Add Illinois to the list of states that require the disclosure of "All USMLE and/or COMLEX attempts" on the application for a medical license or training permit. There is only one medical board in Illinois and only one Physician and Surgeon license that both MDs and DOs receive.

I rather suspect this is the case in most states' boards.. i.e. for that one must disclose all attempts for all exams taken (USMLE and COMLEX).

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

Absolutely do not report it, these psych people are very low pressure and are just looking for someone who is a good fit for the specialty. Another example of the poor advising at DO schools....

there is a little more to the psych match then that, grades/passes/fails/etc still matter.

Im 90% sure reporting it is optional since the usmle isnt required to match as a DO and you didnt have to send usmle scores to begin with. Most wont ask you for them and will just go off what you send. Im curious to see what the official answer is.

However, for my state the DO/MD medical boards are different, and medical license for DOs just required COMLEX pass. My prior state it was combined and I dont think i even bothered to send them my usmle because it was extra money.

 

[deleted1148566]

I have contacted both ERAS and NRMP and was told It is not a match violation to withhold step scores. Thanks for the help guys.

Message from NRMP:

"No, it is not a violation if an applicant does not provide STEP scores when registering for the Main Match. Again, programs obtain your information from your ERAS application not the NRMP."

 

[GoSpursGo]

You should check with your school whether they will report it in your MSPE.

Highlighting this important point from @NotAProgDirector . It would seem foolish for a school to discuss an exam that you would not otherwise report in your MSPE... but then med school deans don't always do the smartest things.

If you don’t report Step then you don’t have to discuss it in your personal statement. Now if asked about “why didn’t you take step?” In an interview then it becomes dicey because you either lie and say you didn’t take it or admit you took it but failed. I think the odds of that question during an interview are low tho

Option 3--non-answer. "I feel content with my performance on standardized exams and don't feel I have anything to prove by taking additional exams when I could focus my efforts elsewhere." Note that they never say the did or did not take step

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I have contacted both ERAS and NRMP and was told It is not a match violation to withhold step scores. Thanks for the help guys.

Message from NRMP:

"No, it is not a violation if an applicant does not provide STEP scores when registering for the Main Match. Again, programs obtain your information from your ERAS application not the NRMP."

Interesting because the senior director of policy and compliance for the NRMP contacted me today to tell me it was in fact a violation.

Their response below:

We are in receipt of your email. As section 6.4 of the Match Participation Agreement for Applicants reads in part:

“the omission of any information pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant may be deemed a violation of this Agreement. The applicant is responsible for disclosing any information regarding, among other things, the ability to satisfy program requirements; circumstances that may delay or adversely impact an applicant’s ability to commence training with a matched program on the program’s start date; or information relevant to licensure status or visa status.”

Applicants should disclose pertinent information, which includes all exam scores.

 

[deleted1148566]

Interesting because the senior director of policy and compliance for the NRMP contacted me today to tell me it was in fact a violation.

Their response below:

We are in receipt of your email. As section 6.4 of the Match Participation Agreement for Applicants reads in part:

“the omission of any information pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant may be deemed a violation of this Agreement. The applicant is responsible for disclosing any information regarding, among other things, the ability to satisfy program requirements; circumstances that may delay or adversely impact an applicant’s ability to commence training with a matched program on the program’s start date; or information relevant to licensure status or visa status.”

Applicants should disclose pertinent information, which includes all exam scores.

Well that just adds to the confusion. Maybe I’ll send them an email again then

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Well that just adds to the confusion. Maybe I’ll send them an email again then

It's really odd there is conflicting statements. I specifically wrote to their policy support since that's who writes the match agreement.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Interesting because the senior director of policy and compliance for the NRMP contacted me today to tell me it was in fact a violation.

Their response below:

We are in receipt of your email. As section 6.4 of the Match Participation Agreement for Applicants reads in part:

“the omission of any information pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant may be deemed a violation of this Agreement. The applicant is responsible for disclosing any information regarding, among other things, the ability to satisfy program requirements; circumstances that may delay or adversely impact an applicant’s ability to commence training with a matched program on the program’s start date; or information relevant to licensure status or visa status.”

Applicants should disclose pertinent information, which includes all exam scores.

That is an interesting take. Which of those stipulations do they believe a non-required exam score is pertinent to? Even if a DO failed step 1, that isn't relevant to "licensure status" because they will still be able to get their license based on COMLEX passage.

In practice, given how royally unpleasant it is to try and replace a resident match, I highly doubt that a program would actually try to file for a Match violation from anyone who did not disclose a failed step 1.

This may be a case where it is better for all involved to just let sleeping dogs lie and not go seeking answers that you don't want to hear...

 

[deleted1148566]

That is an interesting take. Which of those stipulations do they believe a non-required exam score is pertinent to? Even if a DO failed step 1, that isn't relevant to "licensure status" because they will still be able to get their license based on COMLEX passage.

In practice, given how royally unpleasant it is to try and replace a resident match, I highly doubt that a program would actually try to file for a Match violation from anyone who did not disclose a failed step 1.

This may be a case where it is better for all involved to just let sleeping dogs lie and not go seeking answers that you don't want to hear...

I would just like a clear answer. I would rather report a failure instead of fear a violation

 

[MDMechEngr]

Interesting because the senior director of policy and compliance for the NRMP contacted me today to tell me it was in fact a violation.

Their response below:

We are in receipt of your email. As section 6.4 of the Match Participation Agreement for Applicants reads in part:

“the omission of any information pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant may be deemed a violation of this Agreement. The applicant is responsible for disclosing any information regarding, among other things, the ability to satisfy program requirements; circumstances that may delay or adversely impact an applicant’s ability to commence training with a matched program on the program’s start date; or information relevant to licensure status or visa status.”

Applicants should disclose pertinent information, which includes all exam scores.

This statement is program dependent than. It is so open that one can drive a semi truck through.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I would just like a clear answer. I would rather report a failure instead of fear a violation

Just being practical. NRMP can't make applicants disclose on ERAS. It has no bearing on the ability of an applicant to get licensed, even if they would eventually be required to disclose in a licensing application in a couple of isolated states. IMO, this is an overly aggressive interpretation of their policy which likely cannot be enforced.

Of course, the absolute safest course of action is to report. They absolutely would use knowledge of a failure pre-match to move you several notches lower on the rank list. But if you didn't and it came out after the match that you failed step 1, I think the defense that ERAS did not require USMLE reporting for DOs and the fact that the failure is not going to impact licensing would be very reasonable. I really doubt a program would go through the trouble to file a complaint with the NRMP post-match, which they might not even win. I can't guarantee that.

That said, if someone pokes around and asks the NRMP whether or not you have to report a step 1 failure, and the NRMP says yes and you later choose not to, then THAT is probably a match violation. If enough people ask, then the NRMP may decide to explicitly add exam scores to the list of things that need to be disclosed. Right now DO students have the opportunity to take Step 1 at pretty low stakes--if you pass, it helps you, and if you don't pass it probably doesn't hurt you. So rather than seeking clarification that can't help you and may hurt future students... that is where I am coming from when I say that perhaps people should let sleeping dogs lie here.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

This statement is program dependent than. It is so open that one can drive a semi truck through.

I don't think it is in regards to board failures. I think 100% of programs would find it pertinent to know if a perspective resident failed a board exam.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I don't think it is in regards to board failures. I think 100% of programs would find it pertinent to know if a perspective resident failed a board exam.

How so? Specifically, in the context of passing COMLEX, step 1 failure will not impact the ability to satisfy program requirements, or delay commencement of training, or cause issue with licensure status. Just because they would want to know does not make it pertinent.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

That is an interesting take. Which of those stipulations do they believe a non-required exam score is pertinent to? Even if a DO failed step 1, that isn't relevant to "licensure status" because they will still be able to get their license based on COMLEX passage.

Well, they only state licensure requirements as one of the reasons. And again, some states actually do require you to disclose if you have failed any board exam when obtaining licensure. People can choose to do whatever they want, and probably won't get caught not disclosing. But I am certain if caught, if it were reported, I don't know how you could easily defend it not being a violation by the NRMP. It's clearly pertinent to a programs decision to rank. Not disclosing it is clearly intentional. It would be very difficult to win that argument with the NRMP in my opinion if caught.

Will someone get caught? Probably not. Will a program report someone they match if they catch them? Also, probably not. But they could. Like I said, the NRMP investigates a ton of violations for a variety of f complaints every year. People do report.

This is a tricky situation, I just think people should know the potential repercussions when making a decision what to do. I honestly don't think its a grey area. I think its a violation. The only grey area is, its a violation you probably won't get caught for.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

How so? Specifically, in the context of passing COMLEX, step 1 failure will not impact the ability to satisfy program requirements, or delay commencement of training, or cause issue with licensure status. Just because they would want to know does not make it pertinent.

Because its pertinant to a programs decision to rank an applicant. The vast majority of PDs care about board pass rate as it is an ACGME requirement for their program and past board success is a predictor of future board success. If you look at PD surveys, past failures is HUGE in terms of whether PD's consider even interviewing or ranking candidates. Many places will not even consider an applicant with a failure.

I personally think this stance is BS, I've matched people with failures that did just fine and have never excluded those candidates from our app poll. But still, it's very clear that "any board failure" is extremely important when it comes to info that PD's want to know about.

 

[deleted1148566]

I don't think it is in regards to board failures. I think 100% of programs would find it pertinent to know if a perspective resident failed a board exam.

Well, they only state licensure requirements as one of the reasons. And again, some states actually do require you to disclose if you have failed any board exam when obtaining licensure. People can choose to do whatever they want, and probably won't get caught not disclosing. But I am certain if caught, if it were reported, I don't know how you could easily defend it not being a violation by the NRMP. It's clearly pertinent to a programs decision to rank. Not disclosing it is clearly intentional. It would be very difficult to win that argument with the NRMP in my opinion if caught.

Will someone get caught? Probably not. Will a program report someone they match if they catch them? Also, probably not. But they could. Like I said, the NRMP investigates a ton of violations for a variety of f complaints every year. People do report.

This is a tricky situation, I just think people should know the potential repercussions when making a decision what to do. I honestly don't think its a grey area. I think its a violation. The only grey area is, its a violation you probably won't get caught for.

I just got my email forwarded to policy. Most likely will receive the same reply as you. I'll proceed with reporting a STEP failure.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I get the frustration that all the info is vague, and I get that the answer isn't what people want. But there's a reason that most schools will tell you to report. And that's why I wrote to the people in the policy section of the NRMP to be very specific about this question. People can not like the justification they give, but it's still their policy. The NRMP is the body that can allow a program to terminate you before starting and ban you from future matches. No one else. That's why their opinion matters more than mine, yours, or ERAS, none of whose opinions matter on the Match agreement in the end. I disagree with them on some of their policies. Still gotta abide by them. I just want to make sure people proceed with caution knowing all the information. Trust me, as a student advocate who believes its ridiculous some programs make DOs even take Step, I wish they would say it was optional to report. But my opinion on the matter is meaningless. It's only the opinion of the NRMP that matters.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Because its pertinant to a programs decision to rank an applicant. The vast majority of PDs care about board pass rate as it is an ACGME requirement for their program and past board success is a predictor of future board success. If you look at PD surveys, past failures is HUGE in terms of whether PD's consider even interviewing or ranking candidates. Many places will not even consider an applicant with a failure.

I personally think this stance is BS, I've matched people with failures that did just fine and have never excluded those candidates from our app poll. But still, it's very clear that "any board failure" is extremely important when it comes to info that PD's want to know about.

I hear all of that and am obviously aware that it is listed as an important metric on PD surveys because of the correlation with eventual board pass rates. Where you and I disagree is that I still think this falls under the category of things that a program would want to know, but is not pertinent to any of the realms that the NRMP highlighted. The test was optional, is not necessary for licensure, and so I find this to be extraneous information. If they want to change their policy and explicitly list exam scores as pertinent, then that is certainly their prerogative.

I have absolutely no skin in this game, am just reading based on my own interpretation and how I have seen it interpreted by other PDs like @NotAProgDirector over the years. I hate to put students who likely already have a borderline application even further behind the eight ball. Obviously the safest option is to just always report everything.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

but is not pertinent to any of the realms that the NRMP highlighted.

The first sentence says " pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant". They discuss licensure later, but you are skipping the first sentence about the decision to rank, and it's clearly pertinent to rank an applicant, I'm not sure how anyone could look at match data and dispute that. We can dispute semantics, but ultimately if the senior director of policy for the NRMP said it would be a violation then I'm pretty certain they agree it's pertinent based on how they define it.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

based on my own interpretation and how I have seen it interpreted by other PDs like @NotAProgDirector over the years.

I guess my point is that it's not my or any other PD's interpretation that matters. It's only that of the NRMP. There's plenty of PDs out there that openly violate NRMP rules and regs when interviewing. So finding one that misinterprets the NRMP match agreement isn't surprising. We all have opinions. But ultimately, none of them matter with regards to investigating Match violations unless we work for the NRMP.

 

[DrZoidbergDO]

my pov is that it's prob better to match at a worse place rather than maybe be banned from the match entirely. which is why taking step if youre not absolutely ready to take it is a bad idea imo

 

[GoSpursGo]

The first sentence says " pertinent to a program’s decision to rank an applicant". They discuss licensure later, but you are skipping the first sentence about the decision to rank, and it's clearly pertinent to rank an applicant, I'm not sure how anyone could look at match data and dispute that. We can dispute semantics, but ultimately if the senior director of policy for the NRMP said it would be a violation then I'm pretty certain they agree it's pertinent based on how they define it.

We are debating semantics. I didn't skip that sentence, I took the second sentence as their definition of what is considered "pertinent." The fact that we are having this disagreement should make it obvious that the wording is not clear. Again, if they would like to clarify their policy, that is certainly their prerogative. As it stands, it would be incredibly punitive of both a program who reports an applicant and the NRMP for punishing an applicant who misinterprets their poorly written policy.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

We are debating semantics. I didn't skip that sentence, I took the second sentence as their definition of what is considered "pertinent." The fact that we are having this disagreement should make it obvious that the wording is not clear. Again, if they would like to clarify their policy, that is certainly their prerogative. As it stands, it would be incredibly punitive of both a program who reports an applicant and the NRMP for punishing an applicant who misinterprets their poorly written policy.

Totally agree, it should be more clear cut. I see this question asked every year. There's no reason why it shouldn't be clearly stated by the NRMP like in their FAQs or something.

 

[MDMechEngr]

Just being practical. NRMP can't make applicants disclose on ERAS. It has no bearing on the ability of an applicant to get licensed, even if they would eventually be required to disclose in a licensing application in a couple of isolated states. IMO, this is an overly aggressive interpretation of their policy which likely cannot be enforced.

Of course, the absolute safest course of action is to report. They absolutely would use knowledge of a failure pre-match to move you several notches lower on the rank list. But if you didn't and it came out after the match that you failed step 1, I think the defense that ERAS did not require USMLE reporting for DOs and the fact that the failure is not going to impact licensing would be very reasonable. I really doubt a program would go through the trouble to file a complaint with the NRMP post-match, which they might not even win. I can't guarantee that.

That said, if someone pokes around and asks the NRMP whether or not you have to report a step 1 failure, and the NRMP says yes and you later choose not to, then THAT is probably a match violation. If enough people ask, then the NRMP may decide to explicitly add exam scores to the list of things that need to be disclosed. Right now DO students have the opportunity to take Step 1 at pretty low stakes--if you pass, it helps you, and if you don't pass it probably doesn't hurt you. So rather than seeking clarification that can't help you and may hurt future students... that is where I am coming from when I say that perhaps people should let sleeping dogs lie here.

^^^ This 100%. Let the sleeping dog lie. For doing extra as in taking a test that is not required for your medical degree should only help (if you pass) and should not hurt you (if you fail). Like doing extra credit assignments to boost your grade. LOL.

 

[deleted1148566]

Just being practical. NRMP can't make applicants disclose on ERAS. It has no bearing on the ability of an applicant to get licensed, even if they would eventually be required to disclose in a licensing application in a couple of isolated states. IMO, this is an overly aggressive interpretation of their policy which likely cannot be enforced.

Of course, the absolute safest course of action is to report. They absolutely would use knowledge of a failure pre-match to move you several notches lower on the rank list. But if you didn't and it came out after the match that you failed step 1, I think the defense that ERAS did not require USMLE reporting for DOs and the fact that the failure is not going to impact licensing would be very reasonable. I really doubt a program would go through the trouble to file a complaint with the NRMP post-match, which they might not even win. I can't guarantee that.

That said, if someone pokes around and asks the NRMP whether or not you have to report a step 1 failure, and the NRMP says yes and you later choose not to, then THAT is probably a match violation. If enough people ask, then the NRMP may decide to explicitly add exam scores to the list of things that need to be disclosed. Right now DO students have the opportunity to take Step 1 at pretty low stakes--if you pass, it helps you, and if you don't pass it probably doesn't hurt you. So rather than seeking clarification that can't help you and may hurt future students... that is where I am coming from when I say that perhaps people should let sleeping dogs lie here.

What makes you say DOs can take the exam with low stakes and that it doesn't hurt you?

 

[GoSpursGo]

What makes you say DOs can take the exam with low stakes and that it doesn't hurt you?

Because per my my interpretation, I think a DO who fails step 1 could reasonably not report based on the vague policy. Clearly that is not the interpretation of everyone here. YMMV, and/or I could outright be wrong. and if the NRMP clarifies their policy to say that all exams need to be reported then this is moot.

@gamerEMdoc if you get a response to your part of the question asking if anyone had ever been reported for this, I would also find that information very helpful. Knowing if someone has ever had a program come after them for not reporting USMLE and whether they got a match violation would certainly change my calculus.