Relevancy of PM News

[Sweatshirt]

Found the ABFAS plant

Feli runs multiple accounts on SDN

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

You have no idea what you’re talking about but I would not expect you to know since you are not privy to accurate information. Nobody gets grandfathered into board certification. The individual you’re referring to achieved BC by ABPS at that time. ABPS certified individuals prior to 1990 always had a lifetime certificate in foot and ankle surgery which is a status that is no longer offered. After 1991 certification became time limited and required a recertification test every 10 years up until LEAD began two years ago. Certification status at that time was also separated into foot and RRA requiring separate testing and recertification.

Your claim of a 50% pass rate is also inaccurate. Last year’s cumulative pass rates for foot and RRA case review we’re both above 80%. Foot surgery didactic was above 80% and foot surgery CBPS was above 90%. The lowest pass rate was for RRA didactic and CBPS both at 65%. Certain people on SDN (LCR) like to skew the numbers to push a narrative of unfairness or elitism. If you know your stuff, and you do good work, you should have no problem passing the ABFAS process. THINK ABOUT THAT.

There are ton of podiatrists with thick mustaches on the very back end of their careers who need the resident to do the toe amp and TMA that are board certified by the ABFAS and were grandfathered in. Sorry it is a fact.

 

[dtrack22]

If you know your stuff, and you do good work, you should have no problem passing the ABFAS process. THINK ABOUT THAT.

Noted…

 

[Boba Foot]

Nobody gets grandfathered into board certification.

Your claim of a 50% pass rate is also inaccurate. Last year’s cumulative pass rates for foot and RRA case review we’re both above 80%.

Gaslighting.

 

[RollingstonePod]

Gaslighting.

Truth! Prove me wrong.

 

[RollingstonePod]

Feli runs multiple accounts on SDN

Not a plant or Feli, just a concerned colleague about the future of our profession. I know the cert process well and I tend to chime in when inaccurate information is being disseminated. There has been an effort over the last few years, especially on this forum to demonize ABFAS and it’s usually from those who can’t successfully complete the process of BC. The profession has made great strides in the surgical arena over the last few decades mainly due to the efforts of ABFAS/ACFAS. Now you have individuals trying to “cancel” the process because everyone who did a residency can’t pass. I’ll simply continue scrolling and call it out when I see it.

 

[RollingstonePod]

Noted…

View attachment 377033

Not sure what you’re referring to. Trying to say he knows his stuff but not RRA cert?

 

[Shiyuan]

Truth! Prove me wrong.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

The lowest pass rate was for RRA didactic and CBPS both at 65%

At least Sammie Merritt can get 69% of their students to pass part 1.

Pathetic.

 

[RollingstonePod]

At least Sammie Merritt can get 69% of their students to pass part 1.

Pathetic.

Agreed, pathetic that 35% of the residencies are failing their residents in RRA education.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Agreed, pathetic that 35% of the residencies are failing their residents in RRA education.

Well, let me present an alternate perspective for you.

Either;
The schools accept sub-par students ...
The schools suck ...
The residency directors aren't doing their jobs ...
The CPME is doing a poor job of oversight ...

Or ...

Just maybe ...

The ABFAS is testing a standard different than being taught in the residencies?

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Your claim of a 50% pass rate is also inaccurate. Last year’s cumulative pass rates for foot and RRA case review we’re both above 80%. Foot surgery didactic was above 80% and foot surgery CBPS was above 90%. The lowest pass rate was for RRA didactic and CBPS both at 65%. Certain people on SDN (LCR) like to skew the numbers to push a narrative of unfairness or elitism. If you know your stuff, and you do good work, you should have no problem passing the ABFAS process. THINK ABOUT THAT.

You (and the ABFAS) have perfected the tactics of misdirection that any illusionist would be impressed.

Nobody cares about the pass rate of a single test. A candidate must pass 6 tests total to be certified in RRA. So if you have 100% pass rate on 5 and 10% on 1, it's still only 10%.

The cumulative pass rate is not how you describe it, since a candidate must to pass them in sequence to move to the next step. The pass rate for RRA, which is what 98% of residencies offer, is less than 37%. Using ABFAS published statistics, see below.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Well, let me present an alternate perspective for you.

Either;
The schools accept sub-par students ...
The schools suck ...
The residency directors aren't doing their jobs ...
The CPME is doing a poor job of oversight ...

Or ...

Just maybe ...

The ABFAS is testing a standard different than being taught in the residencies?

I’ll bite.

I graduated from a historically strong program that is known for their TAR training. I’ve worked at two hospital jobs since residency. First hospital job I started the program. No fellowship.

Passed ABFAS first time for foot and RRA.
———

ABFAS is testing things all residents should be exposed to if all residency programs are meeting standards.

We want to be a surgical profession now right? So all these residency programs are supposed to provide a comparable surgical experience right? The issue is they are not. The discrepancy in training standards from one residency program to the next is grossly variable. It’s rather disturbing. Most residency programs are not meeting the standards but they are being allowed to continue to accept residents and function. There is zero oversight. If there was one could visit a historically strong program and then visit a VA hospital in New York and know there is a big difference in education and training. If they can’t tell then that’s a problem.

Schools are accepting terrible students.

The education in these schools are variable with the better education being taught at schools linked with medical schools vs independent podiatry schools.

The problem with podiatry is that you got a lot of different individuals practicing “podiatry” but everyone does different things based on the time they received their education and residency training and where they received their education and residency training. This is an undeniable truth. The profession is a melting pot of different backgrounds which continues to confuse the public and MD/DO and has been a limiting factor for the entire profession through its existence. Allowing NPs to pass us in the scope of practice fight.

I did rotations in medicine, trauma, ortho, general surgery, ER, vascular surgery etc in residency. But as soon as I graduated the Nurse practitioner who did their training online and did some BS clinical rotations just achieved a broader scope than me. It is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Hybrocure]

Well, let me present an alternate perspective for you.

Either;
The schools accept sub-par students ...
The schools suck ...
The residency directors aren't doing their jobs ...
The CPME is doing a poor job of oversight ...

Or ...

Just maybe ...

The ABFAS is testing a standard different than being taught in the residencies?

Love it. This is why myself and many others who don’t post here are turning to the ABPM.

The truth is the majority of us aren’t graduating from great residency programs. But on the flip side - many of us are self aware regarding that. I just want to do well in clinic and do forefoot stuff and amputate. Most grads from average pod residencies just want to do bread and butter cases.

Even if you graduate from a bad residency program, in 2023, 99% of graduates can still do basic podiatry and basic surgical procedures well.

A couple big gripes I have with ABFAS testing is that somehow unrealistic rearfoot/ankle stuff still creeps into foot exam questions, and secondly the awful imaging.

I can look at a toe in clinic and know within 2 seconds if it has osteo or gas. But the future of my career will be judged off of a blurry X-ray I can’t zoom in on for the board exam. And that’s for the easiest imaging question. Throw in images for procedures that are commonly debated at every CME conference the right or wrong way to do it and it’s just a guessing game.

I exaggerate of course to a degree. But I’m not far off from the reality of what new grads are dealing with.

 

[Feli]

...The ABFAS is testing a standard different than being taught in the residencies?...

Perhaps a higher standard than the residency you teach at or your teaching and surgical ability?

Perhaps a higher standard than the residency you trained at?

Overall? I would say the standard is fine. Again, your co-residents and co-fellow passed ABFAS, sir. We call our residencies surgical foot and ankle programs. The material on ABFAS exams is in the core textbooks and much of it is in the only high quality DPM journal, JFAS... as well as ortho core texts and top journals. Many good podiatry residencies have a nearly 100% pass rate on ABFAS. Many lesser ones have a very low pass rate.

The choices are simple: aim for higher standards, or lower the bar. ABFAS does the former, ABPM does the latter. Call it a difference of opinion. A real board and an alternate board is what it really is.

...Nobody cares about the pass rate of a single test. A candidate must pass 6 tests total to be certified in RRA. So if you have 100% pass rate on 5 and 10% on 1, it's still only 10%. ...

So, your own personal pass rate for ABFAS Foot or RRA is 0%... pass all or it doesn't count. Your co-residents and co-fellows pass, and you did not. They did 100%, and you did zero percent by your logic. We get it... even without the fancy diagrams. Understood. Thanks for talking to people as if they don't understand math. Most of us are actually smart people, but keep making friends by talking down to everyone.

...I would like to point out an inaccuracy in your forum signature... it says president ABPM (today, in Sept 2023). I was told by the ABPM exec director that your term was finished in July 2023. Did the rules change after that person and the board of directors quit after attempting impeachment?

 

[footshazam]

I’ll bite.

I graduated from a historically strong program that is known for their TAR training. I’ve worked at two hospital jobs since residency. First hospital job I started the program. No fellowship.

Passed ABFAS first time for foot and RRA.
———

ABFAS is testing things all residents should be exposed to if all residency programs are meeting standards.

We want to be a surgical profession now right? So all these residency programs are supposed to provide a comparable surgical experience right? The issue is they are not. The discrepancy in training standards from one residency program to the next is grossly variable. It’s rather disturbing. Most residency programs are not meeting the standards but they are being allowed to continue to accept residents and function. There is zero oversight. If there was one could visit a historically strong program and then visit a VA hospital in New York and know there is a big difference in education and training. If they can’t tell then that’s a problem.

Schools are accepting terrible students.

The education in these schools are variable with the better education being taught at schools linked with medical schools vs independent podiatry schools.

The problem with podiatry is that you got a lot of different individuals practicing “podiatry” but everyone does different things based on the time they received their education and residency training and where they received their education and residency training. This is an undeniable truth. The profession is a melting pot of different backgrounds which continues to confuse the public and MD/DO and has been a limiting factor for the entire profession through its existence. Allowing NPs to pass us in the scope of practice fight.

I did rotations in medicine, trauma, ortho, general surgery, ER, vascular surgery etc in residency. But as soon as I graduated the Nurse practitioner who did their training online and did some BS clinical rotations just achieved a broader scope than me. It is absolutely ridiculous.

As a 3rd year student I’m appalled at the information I have learned lately. Thanks for telling the truth. Things aren’t looking good for podiatry. Even after passing boards part 1 I really don’t feel secure or excited about a career in this field. So much negativity it makes your head spin.

 

[Feli]

Love it. This is why myself and many others who don’t post here are turning to the ABPM.

Of course... ABPM is and always has been the alternate podiatry certification board... even back when it was ABPOPPM. Nothing new.

The only thing that's new is LCR making conflict with his ABPM actions and causing fights with ABFAS and SDN and APMA and CPME and basically everyone and everything. That's why ABPM BOD voted to impeach him and then walked out when the past prez was able to block it. The CAQ program, started by him, and the associated 2022-23 fallout and infighting are an embarrassment, but that's generally how he rolls. He pokes bears, makes waves, stirs the pot, whatever you like to call it. This is all a personal vendetta of LCR vs ABFAS, and everyone else, ABPM or his "fan base," is just a pawn for his means and goals.

Nobody is against ABPM being around and DPMs having an alternate board cert. That is a good thing. I was fine being in ABPM until LCR's true colors started showing up vividly in 2022 with the emails, attacks, and dog and pony show. The mass resignation of the ABPM BOD spoke with their feet. Overall, he just draws huge conflict in his role and ABPM is a bad look in its present form (a bunch of unelected people, prez whose term has been over awhile now, and offering a 'CAQ surgery' by the non-surgical board after many of the main exam writers and board and office staff quit on account of his actions and almost every major podiatry org denounced that CAQ attempt).

My hope is just that the alternate board for podiatry will end up much better than ABPM in its present form. Five years ago, ABPM was fine. Now, it's a dumpster fire. ABFAS can improve also, but ABPM is in very rough shape. There's a very singular reason for that demise. I feel sorry for the ABPM staff and new appointee BOD and many ABPM dues-paying members and students who have been duped, manipulated, and used. Again, it's sadly nothing new.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

As a 3rd year student I’m appalled at the information I have learned lately. Thanks for telling the truth. Things aren’t looking good for podiatry. Even after passing boards part 1 I really don’t feel secure or excited about a career in this field. So much negativity it makes your head spin.

Be a top student. Get a top residency. At this rate you will have to do a fellowship to attempt to stand out in the job market which is a complete rat race.

Anybody who holds a hospital job currently...if they were to lose it or have their contract not renewed would be shaking in their boots going back into the job market because there are hardly any jobs posted. Losing their current hospital job is almost a 100% guarantee they have to pack it up and move to a different state to get another hospital job (if they can get one). That means moving their family, kids, selling a house, buying a new house, etc. This would be a huge issue for anyone married and with children. There is little security in this field.

Or you take a huge pay cut and work private practice for awhile and get screwed by the private practice owner. Or you go into your pocket further and get a loan either from the bank or from your family and start a private practice of your own and fight with insurance companies to get paid 10 cents on the dollar for any ounce of productivity.

 

[footshazam]

Be a top student. Get a top residency. At this rate you will have to do a fellowship to attempt to stand out in the job market which is a complete rat race.

Anybody who holds a hospital job currently...if they were to lose it or have their contract not renewed would be shaking in their boots going back into the job market because there are hardly any jobs posted. Losing their current hospital job is almost a 100% guarantee they have to pack it up and move to a different state to get another hospital job (if they can get one). That means moving their family, kids, selling a house, buying a new house, etc. This would be a huge issue for anyone married and with children. There is little security in this field.

Or you take a huge pay cut and work private practice for awhile and get screwed by the private practice owner. Or you go into your pocket further and get a loan either from the bank or from your family and start a private practice of your own and fight with insurance companies to get paid 10 cents on the dollar for any ounce of productivity.

thanks for the advice but honestly I’m just thinking about leaving and not completing the degree. Too much negativity and uncertainty for me, I just can’t ignore all that I have learned recently. I have done so much research and had no idea any of this was going on. I have 2 masters degrees already I can put one of them to use because podiatry is a disaster.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Of course... ABPM is and always has been the alternate podiatry certification board... even back when it was ABPOPPM. Nothing new.

The only thing that's new is LCR making conflict with his ABPM actions and causing fights with ABFAS and SDN and APMA and CPME and basically everyone and everything. That's why ABPM BOD voted to impeach him and then walked out when the past prez was able to block it. The CAQ program, started by him, and the associated fallout and infighting are an embarrassment, but that's generally how he rolls. This is all a personal vendetta of LCR vs ABFAS, and everyone else, ABPM or his "fan base," is just a pawn for his means and goals.

Nobody is against ABPM being around and DPMs having an alternate board cert. That is a good thing. I was fine being in ABPM until LCR's true colors started showing up vividly in 2022 with the emails, attacks, and dog and pony show. The mass resignation of the ABPM BOD spoke with their feet. Overall, he just draws huge conflict in his role and ABPM is a bad look in its present form (a bunch of unelected people, prez whose term has been over awhile now, and offering a 'CAQ surgery' by the non-surgical board after many of the main exam writers and board and office staff quit on account of his actions).

Don’t be mad bro …

I do have a personal agenda. It’s to make the profession a better place for everyone and make the board certification process fair and transparent. I won’t stop.

Babe Ruth said, “It’s hard to beat someone who never gives up.”

Signed,

The Prez

 

[Feli]

thanks for the advice but honestly I’m just thinking about leaving and not completing the degree. Too much negativity and uncertainty for me, I just can’t ignore all that I have learned recently. I have done so much research and had no idea any of this was going on. I have 2 masters degrees already I can put one of them to use because podiatry is a disaster.

You can do fine in podiatry, but getting a good residency is paramount.

Some of our residencies are very good, others leave much to be desired in terms of overall skill, academics, mentors.

If you don't pass ABFAS and have good skill, you will be limited in what is already a very saturated profession.

You can read all of the threads and questions about trouble finding jobs for yourself, but overall, you'll see that ppl with better training have significantly less difficulty getting something decent and eventually getting to fair ROI versus their student debt.

The DPM pay that's low for the length of schooling, the tough PP competition, the huge app numbers for most good jobs, the adding longer and longer training (including fellowship to attempt basically a job audition!!), the infighting, the 'flexible' on location to find jobs, the venerating of VA jobs that most MDs laugh at, etc are hallmarks of oversaturation. It's very real. The two new podiatry schools will start graduating soon also. The best foil to that tough job market and the saturation is to get top training and get all key certifications available (namely, ABFAS). The cream always rises to the top, but that top is absolutely lower in any profession suffering with saturation.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Is it possible to believe that schooling and residency are mostly inadequate AND that ABFAS is an elitist club for the cool kids?

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Is it possible to believe that schooling and residency are mostly inadequate AND that ABFAS is an elitist club for the cool kids?

ABFAS is not an elitist club. I know a lot of podiatrists who are average to below average surgeons who got board certified by ABFAS. Paying for board wizards and learning how to take the test is important. Studying their publicly posted documents and reviewing their several hour video presentation on what’s needed for case documentation is something everyone should do. Not doing it is pure laziness. People lose a lot of points just from not hitting all the documentation requirements. Which hurts you significantly.

I guarantee you if a bunch of orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons took ABFAS every single one of them would pass with flying colors and they wouldn’t be crying about it. Why? Because their medical education, orthopedic residency training and fellowship training in foot and ankle are all relatively comparable.

Podiatry medical education, residency training and even our fellowship training are grossly variable…by A LOT. This is the problem with this profession. There is no standard.

I thought we were getting there by moving to three year residencies then the fellowship boom started and everyone and their mother have started a fellowship program. Few are actually worth it but most are just to stroke the fellowship directors ego and dilute the training the residents were supposed to get. It’s destructive and now the profession is going through another redefinition of what a good well trained podiatrist should look like on paper.

Majority of fellowship trained podiatrists I see now are not elite surgeons. Majority are arrogant and love to tout their fellowship training on LinkedIn and never use the p-word to describe who they are. There is a whole new breed of dumb podiatrist present.

 

[footshazam]

You can do fine in podiatry, but getting a good residency is paramount.

Some of our residencies are very good, others leave much to be desired in terms of overall skill, academics, mentors.

If you don't pass ABFAS and have good skill, you will be limited in what is already a very saturated profession.

You can read all of the threads and questions about trouble finding jobs for yourself, but overall, you'll see that ppl with better training have significantly less difficulty getting something decent and eventually getting to fair ROI versus their student debt.

The DPM pay that's low for the length of schooling, the tough PP competition, the huge app numbers for most good jobs, the adding longer and longer training (including fellowship to attempt basically a job audition!!), the infighting, the 'flexible' on location to find jobs, the venerating of VA jobs that most MDs laugh at, etc are hallmarks of oversaturation. It's very real. The two new podiatry schools will start graduating soon also. The best foil to that tough job market and the saturation is to get top training and get all key certifications available (namely, ABFAS). The cream always rises to the top, but that top is absolutely lower in any profession suffering with saturation.

Thanks for the response but honestly I’m so tired of hearing about getting a good residency when someone on this thread just said that the majority of them are inadequate and I am very inclined to believe that because it’s been repeated multiple times. The schools are also inadequate. Podiatry over the decades has proven itself to be a sham. It’s no wonder the AMA looks at the profession with utter disgust. Other health professionals don’t have to talk about getting a good residency spot because their degree holds weight and no matter where they land the MD/DO is going to get them paid. Sure some of them may not match the first time but they eventually do and even if they don’t they can use their degree to do other things. This ABPM vs ABFAS situation is also ridiculous. It doesn’t help the image of the profession. Sad thing is my classmates are unaware of these things because they are so caught up in school and clinic at the moment. For me personally, I’m just not willing to gamble with my future to see if podiatry “works” out for me, too many unknown variables and that just simply shouldn’t be after 4 years of school and 3 years of residency.

 

[footshazam]

And also I never hear you guys talk about the podiatry post blog. Why not? I recently found that site and they really are exposing podiatry for what it is. I totally understand and see why enrollment is down. How could anybody who really cares about their future and their families future sign up for podiatry? I digress. Have a good day guys.

 

[Shiyuan]

And also I never hear you guys talk about the podiatry post blog. Why not? I recently found that site and they really are exposing podiatry for what it is. I totally understand and see why enrollment is down. How could anybody who really cares about their future and their families future sign up for podiatry? I digress. Have a good day guys.

Ignore podiatry and go play video games or something.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

And also I never hear you guys talk about the podiatry post blog. Why not? I recently found that site and they really are exposing podiatry for what it is. I totally understand and see why enrollment is down. How could anybody who really cares about their future and their families future sign up for podiatry? I digress. Have a good day guys.

Podiatry post blog started because feli slept with that guys wife and now he hates on podiatry in an attempt to get back at feli

 

[footshazam]

Podiatry post blog started because feli slept with that guys wife and now he hates on podiatry in an attempt to get back at feli

Are you serious or is that a joke?

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Are you serious or is that a joke?

It’s the internet, more specifically SDN, everything on here is 100% factual on Al Gore’s web

 

[Adam Smasher]

ABFAS is not an elitist club.

The case review process has no transparency. You don't know who's grading you or what you're being measured on. Complications are understood to be a byproduct of surgery, but they cannot be allowed in case submissions. Radiographic outcomes are known to be poorly correlated with patient satisfaction, but they are paramount in case review. We have all seen how nitpicking the feedback can be. Are they finding deficiencies or are they looking for them?

ABFAS is the second-worst certifying board in podiatry.

And also I never hear you guys talk about the podiatry post blog. Why not?

They author is a bit of a nut. He's like a comic book villain, sometimes brilliant, often dangerous

 

[footshazam]

Well some of the things that are said on podiatry post are some of the same things said here so it’s all one and the same. Podiatry is garbage.

 

[Sweatshirt]

Not a plant or Feli, just a concerned colleague about the future of our profession. I know the cert process well and I tend to chime in when inaccurate information is being disseminated. There has been an effort over the last few years, especially on this forum to demonize ABFAS and it’s usually from those who can’t successfully complete the process of BC. The profession has made great strides in the surgical arena over the last few decades mainly due to the efforts of ABFAS/ACFAS. Now you have individuals trying to “cancel” the process because everyone who did a residency can’t pass. I’ll simply continue scrolling and call it out when I see it.

That's exactly the response I'd expect from a second Feli account. You can't fool us Seth

 

[Boba Foot]

I guarantee you if a bunch of orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons took ABFAS every single one of them would pass with flying colors and they wouldn’t be crying about it. Why? Because their medical education, orthopedic residency training and fellowship training in foot and ankle are all relatively comparable.

However, ortho’s board cert process is much easier and less onerous than ABFAS.

…because ABFAS is an elitist club.

 

[Feli]

ABFAS is not an elitist club. ...

I guarantee you if a bunch of orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons took ABFAS every single one of them would pass with flying colors and they wouldn’t be crying about it. Why? Because their medical education, orthopedic residency training and fellowship training in foot and ankle are all relatively comparable.

Podiatry medical education, residency training and even our fellowship training are grossly variable…by A LOT. This is the problem with this profession. There is no standard. ...

Yes.

This is the start and the end of it. ^^^

The choice us there for every pod student is there:

• realize the profession shortcomings and that you need to do a LOT on your own and that the schools are not perfect and that most residencies have major deficiencies (since they were not 3 year programs and 3 year is a newer thing)

OR

• be mad about it, say that it's too hard, and often struggle to get ROI

Podiatry's much like Caribb MD school... barely adequate, they accept and graduate far more than good USA residencies, need to "make your own luck."

Rihanna explains it pretty well... life's a game but it's not fair :

 

[Hybrocure]

The case review process has no transparency. You don't know who's grading you or what you're being measured on. Complications are understood to be a byproduct of surgery, but they cannot be allowed in case submissions. Radiographic outcomes are known to be poorly correlated with patient satisfaction, but they are paramount in case review. We have all seen how nitpicking the feedback can be. Are they finding deficiencies or are they looking for them?

ABFAS is the second-worst certifying board in podiatry.



They author is a bit of a nut. He's like a comic book villain, sometimes brilliant, often dangerous

The posts there definitely give off heath ledger Joker / Alex Jones vibes

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

However, ortho’s board cert process is much easier and less onerous than ABFAS.

…because ABFAS is an elitist club.

Review the publicly posted materials to prepare. Don’t lose points on not having the right paperwork. Several of my cases selected had complications. Still passed. It’s doable. You just need to try and prioritize it rather than putting it on the back burner then scrambling at the last second to get it done.

Also ABFAS is more challenging because the standard of education and residency training is highly variable. There is no comparison. Every podiatrist graduating has different skills and abilities. You don’t see that variability in orthopedics. Or it’s less common.

 

[Feli]

However, ortho’s board cert process is much easier and less onerous than ABFAS.

…because ABFAS is an elitist club.

No.

Their Amer Board Orthopaedic Surgery (ABOS) process is the similar format... and probably a lot harder. They do lengthy exams. They do reviews of their own surgery cases.

ABFAS is clearly modeled from ABOS with qual and cert and case reviews... but ABOS is testing much better students with MUCH better residency training (on average). It is not merely that their "cert process is much easier." It's just that their test takers are high aptitude and prepped for it. It would be awesome if podiatry schools/residencies emulated that, but they prove time and time again that they will not.

I agree with @Retrograde_Nail that nearly any ortho F&A - and many general orthos or other ortho specialties (sports, trauma, etc) - would pass ABFAS, the converse is not true (assuming DPMs only took only the F&A sections of ABOS).

Again, aim for higher podiatry training/competence standards... or lower the bar?
ABFAS tries to set a standard; ABPM merely creates a virtually 100% pass rate no matter what podiatry overall does (open new schools, not close residencies, start more fellowships).

...At the end of the day, there is no reason podiatry can't have both boards: academic standards (ABFAS) and a board everyone passes (ABPM). That was never an antagonistic and disputed coexistence until LCR decided to make it that way - and ABPM attempted to impeach him for it.

Bottom line: podiatry students and residents have to be aware that by avoiding or failing ABFAS, that will tend to get their job application tossed out at many places, though. Doing just ABPM (without ABFAS qual and working towards cert) will have its limitations. It's just an easy screening for who did a decent program, studied, and passed an exam. ABFAS certainly has its duds, but it's one of the better screen tools we have for the many DPM jobs that are heavily applied to.

 

[Feli]

Podiatry post blog started because feli slept with that guys wife and now he hates on podiatry in an attempt to get back at feli

...They author is a bit of a nut. He's like a comic book villain, sometimes brilliant, often dangerous

The posts there definitely give off heath ledger Joker / Alex Jones vibes

I have never read that website; no idea who the guy is.

Feli runs multiple accounts on SDN

No. I probably spend too much time on SDN as it is... and between that and journals/ACFAS/vids/books, I seldom really do any other [podiatry] reading.

 

[HeySister]

ABFAS is not an elitist club. I know a lot of podiatrists who are average to below average surgeons who got board certified by ABFAS. Paying for board wizards and learning how to take the test is important. Studying their publicly posted documents and reviewing their several hour video presentation on what’s needed for case documentation is something everyone should do. Not doing it is pure laziness. People lose a lot of points just from not hitting all the documentation requirements. Which hurts you significantly.

I guarantee you if a bunch of orthopedic foot and ankle surgeons took ABFAS every single one of them would pass with flying colors and they wouldn’t be crying about it. Why? Because their medical education, orthopedic residency training and fellowship training in foot and ankle are all relatively comparable.

Podiatry medical education, residency training and even our fellowship training are grossly variable…by A LOT. This is the problem with this profession. There is no standard.

I thought we were getting there by moving to three year residencies then the fellowship boom started and everyone and their mother have started a fellowship program. Few are actually worth it but most are just to stroke the fellowship directors ego and dilute the training the residents were supposed to get. It’s destructive and now the profession is going through another redefinition of what a good well trained podiatrist should look like on paper.

Majority of fellowship trained podiatrists I see now are not elite surgeons. Majority are arrogant and love to tout their fellowship training on LinkedIn and never use the p-word to describe who they are. There is a whole new breed of dumb podiatrist present.

I agree the fellowship genesis has been a huge detriment to surgical podiatry. It greatly impacts resident training. It provides a title of "fellowship-trained" to poorly trained surgeons. There are fellowships that have multiple fellows that double scrub every case. There are fellowships where the director is only foot certified. There are many fellowships that exist solely for financial advantages to large group practices. Now over 100 graduates a year call themselves fellowship trained. Many have subpar residency surgical training. What started out as a good idea has become a joke. There is a relatively popular fellowship director who is regularly posts pictures with two fellows double scrubbed into every case. How many residency programs have one or two attendings that provide the bill of cases for 6-12 residents? Probably most. You would never see that in the MD/DO world. When I was in residency we did a few months with general surgery. They had 4 residents a year for a total of 20. They had as many attendings. They operated all day for 3-4 years of their training, every day. Cases went uncovered all the time. And then they all went on to do real fellowships.

But they control their saturation.

 

[dtrack22]

No.

Their Amer Board Orthopaedic Surgery (ABOS) process is the similar format... and probably a lot harder. They do lengthy exams. They do reviews of their own surgery cases.

ABOS didactic exam is a little over 300 questions. Our ortho residents would routinely do practice sessions/questions with one of their attendings in our office/lounge. The F&A questions were straightforward. They were not trying to trick you. Unlike our exams, I did not see any questions where the answer seemed to be one man’s opinion on a particular pathology/treatment. They do not have any type of computer based patient/case simulation. They only log cases for 6 months. They do not require circulator notes, case audits, etc. They do not have to perform a certain number or variety of cases prior to sitting for Part II. You get to discuss your decision making, results, complications, etc. face to face with the people “grading” you on Part II.

If you took out the non F&A questions out of the ABOS part I, and put every DPM through their process, the pass rate would be significantly higher than ABFAS. We wouldn’t pass at as high a rate as the orthos do because of variability in student quality and training. But we wouldn’t have nearly as many colleagues wasting thousands of dollars trying to get through a needlessly onerous process for 5-7 years. Or 12 years in Feli’s case.

ABPM should change their name to ABPMS. They should have a didactic part I and a case review part II that mimics ABOS. Short logging window, no diversity crap, just notes and images, pull maybe 6-8 cases (ortho only does 12 for the whole body). Review in person, or remotely, I guess if number of cases and documentation is reasonable (unlike ABFAS) then submitting for a grader is fine. Continue to fight illegal privileging/credentialing requirements. ABFAS would lose a lot of applicants. A lot.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

...At the end of the day, there is no reason podiatry can't have both boards: academic standards (ABFAS) and a board everyone passes (ABPM). That was never an antagonistic and disputed coexistence until LCR decided to make it that way - and ABPM attempted to impeach him for it.

Oops … your elitism is showing.

If “everyone passing” is just the normal pass rate for MD boards, then it’s just the standard.

But how would you keep everyone else out of the OR so they can’t compete with you

 

[Feli]

ABOS didactic exam is a little over 300 questions. Our ortho residents would routinely do practice sessions/questions with one of their attendings. ...

This is the core issue. Right there.

This barely ever happens in podiatry training.

In addition to much more standarized surgery/procedure volume, the MD programs stress board prep, academics, standardized training. I never rotated on one that did not have weekly - more often daily - teaching in the form of journal club, lectures, grand rounds, M&M, board prep, teaching rounds with attending pimping, case discussions, etc. There is mentorship, expectations, structure. That is effetive.

Most podiatry programs' attendings are PP with little time/desire to teach - and often not very well-trained themselves. That will happen when we rapidly change residency structures. Structured academics for podiatry often depends on the senior residents. In some places, academics or accountability for learning barely happens unless the seniors decide to make it happen. Many DPMs in training right now would unfortunately be considered lucky if their program director puts the ABFAS exams on the calendar - much less teaches to them a few times over the training year or reviews results. Even most of our top programs have only a small fraction of the organized teaching and academics which average MD programs do.

...as to boards, we can't compare people with 520 on the MCAT and 80th or better percentile on USMLE whose residency attendings teach them (ortho) to people with 490 on the MCAT who probably wouldn't pass USMLE and whose residency attendings don't do much/any teaching (podiatry) and expect similar results. We shouldn't force those pass rates. We should instead see red flags going up.

If we structure our boards with a main goal to create pass rates same/similar to MDs while ignoring our highly questionable training and ultra-lax admissions and saturation, then we have missed the mark very badly. The crux of the issue is what @HeySister said: we need REAL residencies for podiatry and many more of them (and less students).

We need case residency volume, board prep, standards, structure, real teaching hospitals. As it stands, we keep adding new schools and fellowships and let a 3 year experience in a VA scraping some wounds and doing some amps and maybe triple scrubbing a few diabetic ankle cases that go on to BKA be called a "Podiatric Medicine and Surgery Residency with a credential in Reconstructive Rearfoot/Ankle Surgery." It's a bit of a joke.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

ABOS didactic exam is a little over 300 questions. Our ortho residents would routinely do practice sessions/questions with one of their attendings in our office/lounge. The F&A questions were straightforward. They were not trying to trick you. Unlike our exams, I did not see any questions where the answer seemed to be one man’s opinion on a particular pathology/treatment. They do not have any type of computer based patient/case simulation. They only log cases for 6 months. They do not require circulator notes, case audits, etc. They do not have to perform a certain number or variety of cases prior to sitting for Part II. You get to discuss your decision making, results, complications, etc. face to face with the people “grading” you on Part II.

If you took out the non F&A questions out of the ABOS part I, and put every DPM through their process, the pass rate would be significantly higher than ABFAS. We wouldn’t pass at as high a rate as the orthos do because of variability in student quality and training. But we wouldn’t have nearly as many colleagues wasting thousands of dollars trying to get through a needlessly onerous process for 5-7 years. Or 12 years in Feli’s case.

ABPM should change their name to ABPMS. They should have a didactic part I and a case review part II that mimics ABOS. Short logging window, no diversity crap, just notes and images, pull maybe 6-8 cases (ortho only does 12 for the whole body). Review in person, or remotely, I guess if number of cases and documentation is reasonable (unlike ABFAS) then submitting for a grader is fine. Continue to fight illegal privileging/credentialing requirements. ABFAS would lose a lot of applicants. A lot.

You make sound arguments but completely gloss over that orthopedists were some of the smartest students in their respective medical school classes. They matched into residency programs that provide standardized training and education. Their fellowship programs meet certain criteria and are standardized.

You get none of that in podiatry. None.

I’m not saying ABFAS is the gatekeeper because they are not.

You just have a fair amount of this profession that “graduated” school and residency because there are no standards. Now they can’t pass a board exam. It is not a testament to how hard ABFAS is. It is a testament how BAD podiatry school education and residency training is.

 

[air bud]

You make sound arguments but completely gloss over that orthopedists were some of the smartest students in their respective medical school classes. They matched into residency programs that provide standardized training and education. Their fellowship programs meet certain criteria and are standardized.

You get none of that in podiatry. None.

I’m not saying ABFAS is the gatekeeper because they are not.

You just have a fair amount of this profession that “graduated” school and residency because there are no standards. Now they can’t pass a board exam. It is not a testament to how hard ABFAS is. It is a testament how BAD podiatry school education and residency training is.

💯

 

[Sweatshirt]

Hello yes doctor I have an ulcer. Do you...
1. Offload
2. Surgery
3. Evaluate vascular status
4. Throw literal poo at it

I have been laughing at this for a good 10 minutes straight hahahahahahaha

 

[dtrack22]

Hello yes doctor I have an ulcer. Do you...
1. Offload
2. Surgery
3. Evaluate vascular status
4. Throw literal poo at it

View attachment 377206

I have been laughing at this for a good 10 minutes straight hahahahahahaha

My patients have been getting crap in their foot wounds for years now without good results. @air bud about to make a killing off his pigs tho…

 

[RollingstonePod]

I continually read on this forum of the dismal job market for podiatrists out of residency/fellowship. Maybe someone with strong feelings on the topic should respond to this query.

 

[GreenHousePub]

View attachment 377234
I continually read on this forum of the dismal job market for podiatrists out of residency/fellowship. Maybe someone with strong feelings on the topic should respond to this query.

I looked at the 350k post. Looks like they want someone fellowship trained only, who's looking to get their ABFAS numbers. However, their last post in 2015 was just looking for a typical NY associate.

What changed?

 

[heybrother]

I went to a conference the other day where retired podiatrists kept interrupting the speaker to try and tells stories about the one time they saw a case of CRPS in the 1980's. It was like being in PM News in real life.

 

[Shiyuan]

View attachment 377234
I continually read on this forum of the dismal job market for podiatrists out of residency/fellowship. Maybe someone with strong feelings on the topic should respond to this query.

>100? Dang. I got… hmm… 0 lol.