Radonc Chairs are the reason residents don't have jobs

[XRT_doc]

Why aren't more radoncs talking poorly about the radonc chairs who squarely are the reason why residents don't have jobs. They are the ones who allowed the overexpansion of radiation residency programs.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Gfunk6]

Why aren't more radoncs talking poorly about the radonc chairs who squarely are the reason why residents don't have jobs. They are the ones who allowed the overexpansion of radiation residency programs.

"The Lord Gave, and the Lord Hath Taken Away"

 

[jondunn]

theres some greedy old MFs in every corner of rad onc. From the decrepit halls of a Florida freestnding center where an 80 year old is signing VMAT head and neck plans where he asked the dosimetrist to get more flash on the hyoid 'open the beam up!' to the decrepit chambers of academia

 

[seper]

This whole message board is dedicated to shaming them. Worst type of humans

 

[deleted1111261]

I think we’ve spent a voluminous amount of words on the chairs.

 

[TheWallnerus]

I think we’ve spent a voluminous amount of words on the chairs.

They s**t on the field, and it gave us logorrhea

 

[salubalu]

At my training program radiology residents got chairs as gifts when they graduated.

 

[radoncftw]

At my training program radiology residents got chairs as gifts when they graduated.

i thought this was a surgery thing. I never "got" it, but explain if you understand why.

 

[medgator]

i thought this was a surgery thing. I never "got" it, but explain if you understand why.

Me either. Maybe because the rads guys are sitting around a lot? Unless they are IR or something

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

Ha! The chair thing -

It does happen still in some RadOnc residencies. As far as I can tell, it has to do with the age of your institution and your program.

RadOnc likes to fancy itself an offshoot of surgery (hence the whole oral boards things). It does have historical roots to "justify" this, but I digress.

At the older institutions who survived the Flexner report (mostly East Coast), there are traditions (such as gifting graduating residents a chair) which continue on. Now that I think about it, I actually never tried to find out how this started. I'll ask around.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

At my residency, we got a PrintShop created certificate printed on 8.5x11 white printer paper and "embossed" with a FingerHut gold sticker stipulating that we graduated as a graduation gift. The chair's secretary stamped the signature of course.

I wish I was kidding.

 

[jondunn]

At my residency, we got a PrintShop created certificate printed on 8.5x11 white printer paper and "embossed" with a FingerHut gold sticker stipulating that we graduated as a graduation gift. The chair's secretary stamped the signature of course.

I wish I was kidding.

no dinner?

 

[RSAOaky]

no dinner?

We got a dinner. $30 max per person from the institution, cash bar, and not a single attending chipped a cent towards the final bill.

 

[jondunn]

We got a dinner. $30 max per person from the institution, cash bar, and not a single attending chipped a cent towards the final bill.

lol

 

[deleted941485]

We got a dinner. $30 max per person from the institution, cash bar, and not a single attending chipped a cent towards the final bill.

I remember being at a conference in Florida. Attendings invited us resident to a nice restaurant for dinner. Check came…we got stuck paying for ourselves.

 

[HolySmokes]

We got a dinner. $30 max per person from the institution, cash bar, and not a single attending chipped a cent towards the final bill.

We got a grab and go Chik-fil-A lunch

 

[Mandelin Rain]

We got a grab and go Chik-fil-A lunch

Grab and Go....back to dictating.

 

[metallica81788]

Wow these stories are pathetic

Even my hellpit gave us multicourse dinner with open bar. Although we did have to pay shipping on our chairs if it was non-local...

 

[RickyScott]

We went to an Indian restaurant

 

[Mandelin Rain]

Now that I think of it, we must have had a dinner. Can't remember where. Probably would have preferred an Indian restaurant.

 

[TheWallnerus]

My graduation gift was full board certification

And it’s incredibly unfair and a huge error that it can’t be everyone’s gift too

 

[medgator]

Wow these stories are pathetic

Even my hellpit gave us multicourse dinner with open bar. Although we did have to pay shipping on our chairs if it was non-local...

Likewise

 

[deleted1116990]

So many bright young people throwing away their lives because of what the chairs have done to this field.

This is what a healthy job market looks like:

Radiology Jobs and Radiologist Positions

Radiology perm and locum tenens job openings and positions. Radiologists careers and employment opportunities. New jobs added daily in radiology.

www.radworking.com

Hundreds of jobs posted with 500-750k salaries and 10-16 weeks of vacation all over the country.

Meanwhile...

https://careers.astro.org/jobs/

We graduate nearly 200 residents per year. In the past 30 days, we have the following jobs advertised:

- Sketch practice in Orlando, FL
- Private practice in Portland, OR
- Academics in Lexington, KY
- Academic satellite in Lexington, KY
- Hospital in Louisville, KY
- Academics in Mississippi
- Known exploitative hospital jobs in Colorado
- Academics in lovely Baltimore, MD
- Reposted job in rural PA for nearly a year now
- Cornell Academics
- Academic satellite in rural Iowa
- Hospital in Cleveland
- Another reposted Kentucky job
- Upstate NY Hospital
- GenesisCare in rural Alabama

That's IT. For 200 new grads. Can med students not do basic math? And that's assuming you want any of those jobs. Not only are salaries and vacation not typically advertised, from my experience asking about either is viewed negatively and expecting anything near 750k or 16 weeks of vacation will result in either being hung up on or a lecture about how it is unprofessional to desire vacation to be away from clinic to pursue hobbies, travel, and family time. Anybody who tells you that the job market concerns are "bulls---" is flat out lying to you. It is objectively not true and incredibly easy to disabuse someone of this ridiculous narrative. There is little need for rad onc labor, and the posted job ads are bad jobs (academic satellite, rural location, exploitative hospital or PP position, etc).

A few weeks ago I posted a few jobs that sounded good including one advertising an 850k salary with 10 weeks of vacation. This turned out to be complete B.S. Used car salesmen have more ethics than people trying to bring in rad onc talent these days.

Radiology is a great field with lots of jobs, lots of subspecialties, lots options. I almost did it and regret my choice every day, and if I had finished rad onc at age 30 instead of 35, I would seriously consider doing a second residency in it.

 

[TheWallnerus]

So many bright young people throwing away their lives because of what the chairs have done to this field.

This is what a healthy job market looks like:

Radiology Jobs and Radiologist Positions

Radiology perm and locum tenens job openings and positions. Radiologists careers and employment opportunities. New jobs added daily in radiology.

www.radworking.com

Hundreds of jobs posted with 500-750k salaries and 10-16 weeks of vacation all over the country.

Meanwhile...

https://careers.astro.org/jobs/

We graduate nearly 200 residents per year. In the past 30 days, we have the following jobs advertised:

- Private practice in Orlando, FL
- Private practice in Portland, OR
- Academics in Lexington, KY
- Academic satellite in Lexington, KY
- Hospital in Louisville, KY
- Academics in Mississippi
- Known exploitative hospital jobs in Colorado
- Academics in lovely Baltimore, MD
- Reposted job in rural PA for nearly a year now
- Cornell Academics
- Academic satellite in rural Iowa
- Hospital in Cleveland
- Another reposted Kentucky job
- Upstate NY Hospital
- GenesisCare in rural Alabama

That's IT. For 200 new grads. Can med students not do basic math? And that's assuming you want any of those jobs. Not only are salaries and vacation not typically advertised, from my experience asking about either is viewed negatively and expecting anything near 750k or 16 weeks of vacation will result in either being hung up on or a lecture about how it is unprofessional to desire vacation to be away from clinic to pursue hobbies, travel, and family time. Anybody who tells you that the job market concerns are "bulls---" is flat out lying to you. It is objectively not true and incredibly easy to disabuse someone of this ridiculous narrative. There is little need for rad onc labor, and the posted job ads are bad jobs (academic satellite, rural location, exploitative hospital or PP position, etc).

A few weeks ago I posted a few jobs that sounded good including one advertising an 850k salary with 10 weeks of vacation. This turned out to be complete B.S. Used car salesmen have more ethics than people trying to bring in rad onc talent these days.

Radiology is a great field with lots of jobs, lots of subspecialties, lots options. I almost did it and regret my choice every day, and if I had finished rad onc at age 30 instead of 35, I would seriously consider doing a second residency in it.

But have you posted the huge amount of hidden rad onc jobs? All of the hidden jobs totally disprove you.

(This post made from National Bigfooters HQ)

 

[deleted1116990]

I remember being at a conference in Florida. Attendings invited us resident to a nice restaurant for dinner. Check came…we got stuck paying for ourselves.

During peak rad onc, I was an MS-4 rotating at my home university. I did research and got a poster presentation. Went to ASTRO on my own dime. The department said they would reimburse me the $100 I had to pay for Kinko's to print the poster then stiffed me. Why I did not bail and apply to radiology then and have a nice life, I do not know. The writing was clearly on the wall that this is an incredibly small field full of personality disorders and tightwads that don't care about the next generation.

So we have gone from ignoring med students who show interest in the field, telling them to consider something else (happened to me), and stiffing them out of poster fees to cheerleading them on Twitter and filling spots with people who have never heard of a LINAC? Clown show.

 

[deleted1116990]

But have you posted the huge amount of hidden rad onc jobs? All of the hidden jobs totally disprove you.

(This post made from National Bigfooters HQ)

I have a fair amount to say about this, actually.

My current job was "hidden."
The downside of this is that it is totally unpredictable. You do not know when or if ever you will get a call from a connection. The location could be literally anywhere and you have zero negotiating ability if you decide to take it because somebody is doing you a "favor." In my case it involved a 50% up front cut to pay and PTO going all the way back to entry level partnership track level (awesome!)

The other side of hidden jobs is that chairs can make jobs out of thin air for new grads. These typically aren't high paying, high volume jobs. I've seen it multiple times. Having a 2 year instructor position created for you where you cover random sites all over town because you couldn't get anything else isn't really a success of the hidden jobs market.

Hanging your hat on the "hidden job market" is a fool's errand for a variety of reasons. I'd rather be in a field that has a robust open catalogue of posted jobs competing for talent by making actual efforts at recruiting rather than being in a field where physicians have to be their own recruiter as part of some kind of gray market talent exchange. I'm sure radiology has a "hidden jobs" market as well, but at least there's also the transparent one to choose from.

 

[RickyScott]

There are hidden jobs, but less in relation to other specialties. Proportionately more radonc jobs are part of large systems whose bylaws mandate advertising jobs.

 

[Grubbe-a-dub-dub]

I don't envy any graduating resident right now - its a tough tough job market.

In terms of these hidden jobs - there are so many hospital networks going employed that would def work you into their systems by being their "internal locums" to cover vacation. These jobs are not posted with a little "networking" you can see if this kind of arrangement can be made. The pay is better than being an actual locum and its more stable, but def not what many expected coming out of residency.

 

[TheWallnerus]

I have a fair amount to say about this, actually.

My current job was "hidden."
The downside of this is that it is totally unpredictable. You do not know when or if ever you will get a call from a connection. The location could be literally anywhere and you have zero negotiating ability if you decide to take it because somebody is doing you a "favor." In my case it involved a 50% up front cut to pay and PTO going all the way back to entry level partnership track level (awesome!)

The other side of hidden jobs is that chairs can make jobs out of thin air for new grads. These typically aren't high paying, high volume jobs. I've seen it multiple times. Having a 2 year instructor position created for you where you cover random sites all over town because you couldn't get anything else isn't really a success of the hidden jobs market.

Hanging your hat on the "hidden job market" is a fool's errand for a variety of reasons. I'd rather be in a field that has a robust open catalogue of posted jobs competing for talent by making actual efforts at recruiting rather than being in a field where physicians have to be their own recruiter as part of some kind of gray market talent exchange. I'm sure radiology has a "hidden jobs" market as well, but at least there's also the transparent one to choose from.

If the average number of job solicitations were just 10 or more with 5 firm job offers per grad it would be twice as good as we have right now but still only about a fifth as good as the average in other specialties; about one third of all non RO resident grads get more than 100 job solicitations

 

[deleted941485]

During peak rad onc, I was an MS-4 rotating at my home university. I did research and got a poster presentation. Went to ASTRO on my own dime. The department said they would reimburse me the $100 I had to pay for Kinko's to print the poster then stiffed me. Why I did not bail and apply to radiology then and have a nice life, I do not know. The writing was clearly on the wall that this is an incredibly small field full of personality disorders and tightwads that don't care about the next generation.

Radonc attendings would be the type of people to stick you with the bill.

I mean you’re just never going to be as brilliant or as rich as they were.

 

[fiji128]

no dinner?

We got a cheap-o catered lunch in the conference room.

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

We got a cheap-o catered lunch in the conference room.

Salmon bricks and asparagus?

 

[fiji128]

So many bright young people throwing away their lives because of what the chairs have done to this field.

This is what a healthy job market looks like:

Radiology Jobs and Radiologist Positions

Radiology perm and locum tenens job openings and positions. Radiologists careers and employment opportunities. New jobs added daily in radiology.

www.radworking.com

Hundreds of jobs posted with 500-750k salaries and 10-16 weeks of vacation all over the country.

Meanwhile...

https://careers.astro.org/jobs/

We graduate nearly 200 residents per year. In the past 30 days, we have the following jobs advertised:

- Sketch practice in Orlando, FL
- Private practice in Portland, OR
- Academics in Lexington, KY
- Academic satellite in Lexington, KY
- Hospital in Louisville, KY
- Academics in Mississippi
- Known exploitative hospital jobs in Colorado
- Academics in lovely Baltimore, MD
- Reposted job in rural PA for nearly a year now
- Cornell Academics
- Academic satellite in rural Iowa
- Hospital in Cleveland
- Another reposted Kentucky job
- Upstate NY Hospital
- GenesisCare in rural Alabama

That's IT. For 200 new grads. Can med students not do basic math? And that's assuming you want any of those jobs. Not only are salaries and vacation not typically advertised, from my experience asking about either is viewed negatively and expecting anything near 750k or 16 weeks of vacation will result in either being hung up on or a lecture about how it is unprofessional to desire vacation to be away from clinic to pursue hobbies, travel, and family time. Anybody who tells you that the job market concerns are "bulls---" is flat out lying to you. It is objectively not true and incredibly easy to disabuse someone of this ridiculous narrative. There is little need for rad onc labor, and the posted job ads are bad jobs (academic satellite, rural location, exploitative hospital or PP position, etc).

A few weeks ago I posted a few jobs that sounded good including one advertising an 850k salary with 10 weeks of vacation. This turned out to be complete B.S. Used car salesmen have more ethics than people trying to bring in rad onc talent these days.

Radiology is a great field with lots of jobs, lots of subspecialties, lots options. I almost did it and regret my choice every day, and if I had finished rad onc at age 30 instead of 35, I would seriously consider doing a second residency in it.

This is why I have been posting the astro job list every month. Meds students can easily look over the very limited available positions over the past year and decided for themselves. Not sure why anyone with options would bet their professional future on that moving forward but at least the info is out there.

 

[Conn Seannery]

We went to an Indian restaurant

At the food court?

 

[medgator]

At the food court?

Microwaveable meals

 

[thesauce]

Wow these stories are pathetic

Even my hellpit gave us multicourse dinner with open bar. Although we did have to pay shipping on our chairs if it was non-local...

I don’t know. That Chick-Fil-A one doesn’t sound bad.

 

[deleted1116990]

I don’t know. That Chick-Fil-A one doesn’t sound bad.

How much time is wasted opening ketchup packets for waffle fries with residents at Chik Fil A graduation dinners?
Don't expect these to last.

 

[w00tz]

Wow...can't tell if you guys are serious about graduation meals. I trained at a hellpit, but at least got a nice steak dinner for graduation.

 

[radoncftw]

back when i was an intern, most IM staff would take bring us breakfast or buy us lunch once a week. I can count on one hand how many times an RO attending has bought me lunch.

 

[medgator]

back when i was an intern, most IM staff would take bring us breakfast or buy us lunch once a week. I can count on one hand how many times an RO attending has bought me lunch.

Hellpit definitely took us out for lunch several times a year.... Some are worse than others, unfortunately

 

[elementaryschooleconomics]

back when i was an intern, most IM staff would take bring us breakfast or buy us lunch once a week. I can count on one hand how many times an RO attending has bought me lunch.

In all four years I honestly can't recall getting food outside of department-sponsored events. I remember someone buying me coffee (I think it happened 2-3 times).

I had totally forgotten this was a thing...I had IM attendings take the team out for dinner when rotating off service a couple of times. There was this one IM attending who really didn't click with me and even she bought me lunch.

Ah shoot now I'm bummed again.

 

[Wildcat321]

In all four years I honestly can't recall getting food outside of department-sponsored events. I remember someone buying me coffee (I think it happened 2-3 times).

I had totally forgotten this was a thing...I had IM attendings take the team out for dinner when rotating off service a couple of times. There was this one IM attending who really didn't click with me and even she bought me lunch.

Ah shoot now I'm bummed again.

The Price of a Lunch Salad Went Berserk While You Were Working From Home

Workers returning to the office after two years are learning their already-expensive downtown salads and sandwiches got pricier during their absence.

www.wsj.com

Similar to the job market, don't see free lunch opportunities improving anytime soon.

 

[madchemist89]

Pd where I trained bought us lunch all the time, donuts, coffee, etc. Other attendings not so much.

 

[HolySmokes]

One time we were told by our chair that we were taking food off our PDs table by not getting our completion notes done quick enough. That's... kind of like faculty buying you lunch, right guys? Guys?

 

[jondunn]

One time we were told by our chair that we were taking food off our PDs table by not getting our completion notes done quick enough. That's... kind of like faculty buying you lunch, right guys? Guys?

Damn this is a good one

I’m gonna tell the therapists that today when they waste my time!

 

[RO28]

In all four years I honestly can't recall getting food outside of department-sponsored events. I remember someone buying me coffee (I think it happened 2-3 times).

I had totally forgotten this was a thing...I had IM attendings take the team out for dinner when rotating off service a couple of times. There was this one IM attending who really didn't click with me and even she bought me lunch.

Ah shoot now I'm bummed again.

I got the most free food when I was on surgery as a medical student, one rotation the attending bought lunch every week and another the residents bought breakfast (daily? or maybe I'm remembering that wrong). However as a rad onc resident I vividly remember the time my attending took me to lunch and forgot his wallet

We did however get a decent graduation dinner.

 

[Mandelin Rain]

One thing I will say is my residency was VERY liberal on travel funds for poster presentations. I was pumping out abstracts left and right and saw some amazing places.

 

[deleted941485]

One thing I will say is my residency was VERY liberal on travel funds for poster presentations. I was pumping out abstracts left and right and saw some amazing places.

We had a junior resident who definitely took advantage of the travel funds. Was a little too liberal snd turned a soul searching trip to the Far East into a “research” year. Needless to say he got caught up in the great board failures…faculty was a little less than sympathetic.

 

[radoncftw]

how long was he traveling for? thats awesome.

edit: I would also add that i read some advice on SDN about how to approach my research year. and i made the absolute best of it. was it categorically a colossal waste of a year? did i publish a few papers in open access journals? yes to both. but i did enjoy it for what it was. learned some new hobbies, worked out, traveled. it was like a sabbatical.

 

[seper]

Out East. he surely learned that karma always comes back to bite you