MD & DO Post SMP plans?

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Playdoh4lyfe

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~3.0 uGPA/sGPA
27 MCAT
EC's, LoR's, PS are all in order.
Accepted to 1 DO this cycle, no MD love (yet:xf:).

My dilemma:
  • Deposit is due for the DO school in less than a month ($2k)
  • Currently in an SMP with potential to post a decent (3.6+ gGPA) and retake the MCAT.
  • The DO school doesn't know that I'm in the SMP so the acceptance was given based on my uGPA and first MCAT. (Along with the rest of material from my amazing application :))
  • Assuming I succeed in posting a 3.6+ GPA and can bump my MCAT at least 3-5 points, I imagine I would have a decent shot at a state MD school.(I took my first MCAT without Orgo 1,2, lab and Biochem under my belt which is why I'm thinking I would do much better a second time. I'll also have all these grad classes (Genetics, Biochem, etc.) by the time I take it again.)

I really like the DO school, although it is new, and I sincerely do like the idea of osteopathic medicine. However, I can't shake the idea that I may be settling if I attend this DO over trying again for MD or another, established DO after finishing the SMP.


WAMC? And if anyone else had experience in this position I would love to hear your stories in hopes I can use them as a precedent.




On another, semi-related note, does anyone have an established consensus on the gGPA vs. uGPA controversy? SDN posts make very controversial claims regarding the importance of either.

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There are lot of "ifs" here. IF you score at least 3-5 points better on MCAT, and IF you post a 3.6+ GPA in your SMP. Personally, I don't see the point in forfeiting an acceptance in hopes of something better next cycle.
 
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On another, semi-related note, does anyone have an established consensus on the gGPA vs. uGPA controversy? SDN posts make very controversial claims regarding the importance of either.
I agree with gyngyn. Are you in a true/known Special Masters Program where you are competing with med students for grades?

If not, here is a thread that discusses med schools that are the exception to the general common wisdom, that gGPA is not regarded much (try to ignore the bickering that has nothing to do with the purpose of the thread): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10664952
 
There are lot of "ifs" here. IF you score at least 3-5 points better on MCAT, and IF you post a 3.6+ GPA in your SMP. Personally, I don't see the point in forfeiting an acceptance in hopes of something better next cycle.

I agree. I just don't want to put down a deposit, take the MCAT again and find out that I'd be a great candidate for one of my dream schools.

I agree with gyngyn. Are you in a true/known Special Masters Program where you are competing with med students for grades?

If not, here is a thread that discusses med schools that are the exception to the general common wisdom, that gGPA is not regarded much (try to ignore the bickering that has nothing to do with the purpose of the thread): http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=10664952

It's not a true SMP in that respect. Just a basic masters in medical sciences. There is an SMP program offered at the university but I'm not in it. My program isn't easy by any means, and from what the directors say, plenty of people don't finish due it's rigor. Not that it matters, but there is definitely little to no grade inflation here.

Great thread, really puts it in perspective. I wish someone showed me that before I enrolled here...I guess I'm gonna have to contact some admissions offices and find out how they consider gGPA.

And if I do wind up putting the deposit down, I guess the only scenario that will warrant a withdrawal of the deposit is a stellar MCAT score...since that (along with uGPA) is apparently the only thing they can use to compare me to applicants fresh out of college.

Thanks for all your input!
 
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I agree. I just don't want to put down a deposit, take the MCAT again and find out that I'd be a great candidate for one of my dream schools.
You just have to decide whether the reality of being a physician (DO) is more important than the potential of being accepted to a "dream school".
 
And if I do wind up putting the deposit down, I guess the only scenario that will warrant a withdrawal of the deposit is a stellar MCAT score...since that (along with uGPA) is apparently the only thing they can use to compare me to applicants fresh out of college.
Even those with a uGPA of 3.7+ and a "stellar" MCAT score are not guaranteed to get an acceptance. Those with a low uGPA, a gGPA of 3.7+ and a stellar MCAT will be considered seriously by far fewer med schools and there's no guarantee you'll end up happier than you are right now. You might consider a middle of the road approach: pay the deposit (which may or may not be refundable; check this out if it isn't clear, as deposits for many DO schools are not returned, just so there's no surprises). If your stats turn out well, request a deferral so you still have an acceptance in hand (having first checked to see how liberally these are granted by that institution and what the fee will be). Then reapply next season to MD and other "established" DO schools that you feel more drawn to. A bird in the hand, and all that. Yes, this approach costs some cash, but it's cheaper than a third application season.
 
You got into a DO school with a 3.0 c and sGPA and a 27 MCAT. Lots of people don't even get looked at with those numbers. Are you a under represented minority? I know people with higher stats that haven't even received an interview at a DO school. This isn't even a question, take this acceptance and don't look back.
 
Are you a under represented minority?

Nope. I was actually surprised by the acceptance too, not to mention the 3 ii's. I'm really interested in asking all of the admissions offices why I was invited to interview and eventually accepted, is that odd? I guess I'm really interested in what part of my application overcame those stats, especially since I didn't tell any of them that I was enrolled in the grad program.


...pay the deposit...If your stats turn out well, request a deferral so you still have an acceptance in hand (having first checked to see how liberally these are granted by that institution and what the fee will be). Then reapply next season to MD and other "established" DO schools that you feel more drawn to. A bird in the hand, and all that. Yes, this approach costs some cash, but it's cheaper than a third application season.

I think this is the safest plan. Having the masters degree and all the knowledge that comes with it is a great privilege, but I feel like I would be missing out on an opportunity if I didn't use it to my advantage in getting into a more preferred, established, etc. school (DO or MD).

The deposit is not refundable, so deferral would be great...though hearsay says that it's only for "extenuating circumstances." I assume each school has a different policy, but in general, are deferrals commonplace in med school admissions and how common are they?


Thanks to everyone, by the way. It's great to have this support. My girlfriend is getting REALLY tired of me going through scenarios with her.
 
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The deposit is not refundable, so deferral would be great...though hearsay says that it's only for "extenuating circumstances." I assume each school has a different policy, but in general, are deferrals commonplace in med school admissions and how common are they?
Yes, schools vary in their deferral policy. At some schools they are solicited by the administration(due to overacceptance). At some they are granted on request without much interest in the reason behind it. At others they are given for "Good Reason" which can vary from getting a prestigious research appointment, parent with serious illness, personal tempory medical issue (pregnancy), delay in expected graduation date, etc (in other words, "Good Reasons" vary widely). Some schools will not consider a deferral.

No SDNer will have insight into how often every school grants deferral. At mine it's not rare, but certainly not commonplace.
 
Congratulations on your acceptance. I suspect there is more to your story than has been provided. You say your EC's are in order -- so does that mean you display a consistency of medical motivation (clinical vol & shadow), humanism (comm svc vol), teamwork/leadership, research? As for your 3.0 gpa....is there a particular trend (slow start, strong finish, etc.). Were there some hardships that were overcome, are you a non-traditional student in some way? The answers to these may lend insight as to you selection for interview as well as may portend future acceptance based on your MS program.

Presumably you will send an end of semester update to those schools that have not yet interviewed you?

I would suspect that next year could be better for you in the DO/MD acceptance world with a solid performance in your current academic MS. Yes an acceptance is great...you dont seem satisfied with that program. I would expect that a ~3pt bump up in MCAT and two solid semesters of MS work will garner more than a new DO offer next year.

Final thought --- 45,000 applicants to MD this year with ~23,000+ seats. More MD and DO programs are new or expanding seats. Residency opportunities are not growing. Currently ~70% residencies go to MD, ~20% DO, ~10% FMG --- over the last 2-3 years there has been some shock in the MD community as a few 100 are not matching (mostly because they arent realistic in their choice of residency). My recollection of the applicant match this past year showed ~90% match for MD, 60% for DO, dont recall for FMG. With more applicants, these percentages will change; presumably FMG will decrease, and if MD's look to realistic match opportunities and go more for primary care openings DO may also be impacted in a negative way. (The #/%'s listed here are not gospel, but are "ballpark" based on my memory from numbers at a national conference attended recently).

Hope that this helps.
 
Yes, schools vary in their deferral policy. At some schools they are solicited by the administration(due to overacceptance). At some they are granted on request without much interest in the reason behind it. At others they are given for "Good Reason" which can vary from getting a prestigious research appointment, parent with serious illness, personal tempory medical issue (pregnancy), delay in expected graduation date, etc (in other words, "Good Reasons" vary widely). Some schools will not consider a deferral.

No SDNer will have insight into how often every school grants deferral. At mine it's not rare, but certainly not commonplace.

Agree that most MD programs will provide for a very limited number of deferrals each year, mostly for educational/research pursuit/enrichment, or family related needs. The AAMC/MSAR lists whether an MD program will defer applicants upon admission.
 
Congratulations on your acceptance. I suspect there is more to your story than has been provided. You say your EC's are in order -- so does that mean you display a consistency of medical motivation (clinical vol & shadow), humanism (comm svc vol), teamwork/leadership, research? As for your 3.0 gpa....is there a particular trend (slow start, strong finish, etc.). Were there some hardships that were overcome, are you a non-traditional student in some way? The answers to these may lend insight as to you selection for interview as well as may portend future acceptance based on your MS program.

Presumably you will send an end of semester update to those schools that have not yet interviewed you?

I would suspect that next year could be better for you in the DO/MD acceptance world with a solid performance in your current academic MS. Yes an acceptance is great...you dont seem satisfied with that program. I would expect that a ~3pt bump up in MCAT and two solid semesters of MS work will garner more than a new DO offer next year.

Final thought --- 45,000 applicants to MD this year with ~23,000+ seats. More MD and DO programs are new or expanding seats. Residency opportunities are not growing. Currently ~70% residencies go to MD, ~20% DO, ~10% FMG --- over the last 2-3 years there has been some shock in the MD community as a few 100 are not matching (mostly because they arent realistic in their choice of residency). My recollection of the applicant match this past year showed ~90% match for MD, 60% for DO, dont recall for FMG. With more applicants, these percentages will change; presumably FMG will decrease, and if MD's look to realistic match opportunities and go more for primary care openings DO may also be impacted in a negative way. (The #/%'s listed here are not gospel, but are "ballpark" based on my memory from numbers at a national conference attended recently).

Hope that this helps.

Thank you! It's truly a blessing to be accepted and I don't want to sound ungrateful for this opportunity, I just want to be able to look back and say I gave it my all. The school is great, very up-to-date and I can definitely see myself excelling there. However, it's a new school which always comes with the issues of tuning the curriculum, schedules, etc. And it's location, though not especially bad, is less than ideal for me and the clinical rotations appear to be limited.

I think my EC's show consistent medical motivation: 5 years as a practicing, volunteer EMT (certified 5 years NJ, 2 years FL), a year and a half as a paid medical supervisor for a pharmaceutical company, one year of volunteer research in Europe, one year of volunteer research in the U.S. (no pubs) Shadowed PM&R, Anes, GP. All that plus multiple smaller volunteer activities, clubs, leadership positions etc.

Grades started out at 4.0 my first year, dropped for 2nd and 3rd and came up during my senior year. The 2 A-'s in Organic Chem and 2 A's in Gen Chem are my only redeeming science grades. I was an Econ major with minors in Bio and Chem so I don't have any science classes beyond the pre-reqs.

I took the MCAT with one month of dedicated studying and lacking both Orgo's and Biochem, not to mention the classes I'm taking this semester for the MS (Genetics, Biochem, Anatomy and Immunology) The MS program offers a princeton review course which I planned on taking next semester as well.

Not non-traditional, no major setbacks besides 2 withdrawn classes for illness.

Yes, once I finish the semester I'll definitely be sending my transcripts out to the schools who I haven't heard from.

With at least a 3pt bump and a good/great GPA I think I would have a great shot at my state MD schools, not to mention the state DO schools. Like someone said before, it's all a lot of "ifs," but the way I see it, failing to prepare is preparing to fail. (So cheesy. But it's tried and true)

Can you explain that last paragraph? I'm a bit confused. DO's will have a less chance as more MD's go for primary care? Is that just for AMA or are AOA residencies included in those calculations?


Yes, schools vary in their deferral policy. At some schools they are solicited by the administration(due to overacceptance). At some they are granted on request without much interest in the reason behind it. At others they are given for "Good Reason" which can vary from getting a prestigious research appointment, parent with serious illness, personal tempory medical issue (pregnancy), delay in expected graduation date, etc (in other words, "Good Reasons" vary widely). Some schools will not consider a deferral.

No SDNer will have insight into how often every school grants deferral. At mine it's not rare, but certainly not commonplace.

Ok, good to hear. I was under the impression is was a very, very rare occurrence. I'm going to contact admissions and see what I can do.
 
Well, regardless on what you decide to do, congrats on the DO acceptance :) Lots of people really wish they could be in your shoes right now



Nope. I was actually surprised by the acceptance too, not to mention the 3 ii's. I'm really interested in asking all of the admissions offices why I was invited to interview and eventually accepted, is that odd? I guess I'm really interested in what part of my application overcame those stats, especially since I didn't tell any of them that I was enrolled in the grad program.




I think this is the safest plan. Having the masters degree and all the knowledge that comes with it is a great privilege, but I feel like I would be missing out on an opportunity if I didn't use it to my advantage in getting into a more preferred, established, etc. school (DO or MD).

The deposit is not refundable, so deferral would be great...though hearsay says that it's only for "extenuating circumstances." I assume each school has a different policy, but in general, are deferrals commonplace in med school admissions and how common are they?


Thanks to everyone, by the way. It's great to have this support. My girlfriend is getting REALLY tired of me going through scenarios with her.
 
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Thank you! It's truly a blessing to be accepted and I don't want to sound ungrateful for this opportunity, I just want to be able to look back and say I gave it my all. The school is great, very up-to-date and I can definitely see myself excelling there. However, it's a new school which always comes with the issues of tuning the curriculum, schedules, etc. And it's location, though not especially bad, is less than ideal for me and the clinical rotations appear to be limited.

I think my EC's show consistent medical motivation: 5 years as a practicing, volunteer EMT (certified 5 years NJ, 2 years FL), a year and a half as a paid medical supervisor for a pharmaceutical company, one year of volunteer research in Europe, one year of volunteer research in the U.S. (no pubs) Shadowed PM&R, Anes, GP. All that plus multiple smaller volunteer activities, clubs, leadership positions etc.

Grades started out at 4.0 my first year, dropped for 2nd and 3rd and came up during my senior year. The 2 A-'s in Organic Chem and 2 A's in Gen Chem are my only redeeming science grades. I was an Econ major with minors in Bio and Chem so I don't have any science classes beyond the pre-reqs.

I took the MCAT with one month of dedicated studying and lacking both Orgo's and Biochem, not to mention the classes I'm taking this semester for the MS (Genetics, Biochem, Anatomy and Immunology) The MS program offers a princeton review course which I planned on taking next semester as well.

Not non-traditional, no major setbacks besides 2 withdrawn classes for illness.

Yes, once I finish the semester I'll definitely be sending my transcripts out to the schools who I haven't heard from.

With at least a 3pt bump and a good/great GPA I think I would have a great shot at my state MD schools, not to mention the state DO schools. Like someone said before, it's all a lot of "ifs," but the way I see it, failing to prepare is preparing to fail. (So cheesy. But it's tried and true)

Can you explain that last paragraph? I'm a bit confused. DO's will have a less chance as more MD's go for primary care? Is that just for AMA or are AOA residencies included in those calculations?




Ok, good to hear. I was under the impression is was a very, very rare occurrence. I'm going to contact admissions and see what I can do.



I am familiar with new MD programs the the perils. I left an established program to start a new program in Floridain 2007, and you are correct in looking at curriculum, faculty, clinical opportunities, and all of the other factors that can make medical school a bit more challenging. Location is also important based on your needs.

The last paragraph was simply information indicating that medical residencies are getting tougher to come by with the increase in graduating medical students and lack of increase in residency positions. MD programs have experienced a few more of their applicants not matching simply because of the increases. I would suspect that some of the MD students will begin to focus on some of the primary care specialties as back-up plans for residency match. This would cause a little more competition for the residencies in the primary care areas where DO and FMG are currently matching. If true there could be a reduction in either DO or FMG match rates.....most likely affecting FMG's the most. This is just to make you aware of the future changes in the landscape of obtaining a residency upon graduation from a MD/DO program. Most med graduates will be fine, but they have to be willing to understand their position in the group of applicants and work toward those specialties where they are most competitive.
 
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A brief update for anyone still interested:

I contacted admissions and was told that if granted a deferral, I can't apply to other schools, attend other schools and that any other acceptances I've been granted can't be taken. I haven't been able to look at the actual agreement and the consequences of breaking those conditions, but I assume it's something I don't want to do.

On that note, I'll more than likely be placing the deposit in a few weeks in case my MCAT or GPA isn't what I intend it to be following the Spring 2014 semester.

Assuming it is, I think I'll be in a good position to apply again (MD/DO) with a 3.7+ gGPA and a 30+ MCAT. If anyone disagrees, I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.
 
If you're willing to spend the money, i'd go ahead and place the deposit just in case. In any event, your chances at MD schools are largely going to depend on your next MCAT score.

If you can manage a 3.7/ 30 you'd have a good shot at getting a few MD interviews next cycle provided you apply broadly to 20+ schools and submit ASAP in June. Depending on your state of residence (FL v. NJ) it may be a little tougher to stay in-state as some schools value SMPs and gGPAs more than others. In addition, also apply to a few DO schools you didn't apply to this cycle and you should have an excellent shot at multiple acceptances.
 
If you're willing to spend the money, i'd go ahead and place the deposit just in case. In any event, your chances at MD schools are largely going to depend on your next MCAT score.

If you can manage a 3.7/ 30 you'd have a good shot at getting a few MD interviews next cycle provided you apply broadly to 20+ schools and submit ASAP in June. Depending on your state of residence (FL v. NJ) it may be a little tougher to stay in-state as some schools value SMPs and gGPAs more than others. In addition, also apply to a few DO schools you didn't apply to this cycle and you should have an excellent shot at multiple acceptances.

It would be FL residency. Hopefully with the plethora of schools down here (and a great MCAT) I'll have a decent shot.

I know applying early makes a world of difference (I applied in October of last year with no success and in June of this year with 3 ii's), but by including summer grades I'm looking at 12-15 more credits of potential A's.

How much of a difference would it make if I submitted after my summer grades came out in late July, early August?

Or would it be better to submit ASAP and then update the schools with my new grades once I get them? (AMCAS says they won't update grades once they've been verified, so I assume sending each school an updated transcript come August would be what I would have to do.)
 
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